"Echoes" in beginning

[HelloImCarter]

I found it interesting once I actually thought about the intro. I've always noticed the echoes, but it never clicked in that it's an echo of what he's going to say. "(Who are you) Who are you to wave your..." it happens for a while too. Anyone have any idea why they chose to do something so unusual? I have thoughts, it's an effect for song meaning, but I'll get into that if provoked.

[Andorion]

For another fun echo, listen hard with your right ear at 2:36 =)

[Briznitch]

I hate it. Sounds like something is messed up with the sound. Why do I want to hear an echo BEFORE the real words? I mean I love the song and the album but that kind of pisses me off. Just doesn't sound right.

[Shaz]

I hate it. Sounds like something is messed up with the sound. Why do I want to hear an echo BEFORE the real words? I mean I love the song and the album but that kind of pisses me off. Just doesn't sound right.


I think its totally office.

[resonance.]

Reverse delay/reverb on the vocals is nothing new...

[HelloImCarter]

Reverse delay/reverb on the vocals is nothing new...

No, that's nothing new, except it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. He's not being reversed and there's no delay. So, ... I don't know what you're getting at. It's him singing normal, and in the distance (probably deamplified). Plus it's before he actually sings. A delay would be after.

[HelloImCarter]

Nevermind. I understand what you meant, now. A delay, but the reverse concept. ... I've just put my "Foot in mouth and head up ass." Sorry 'bout that. I've never heard something like that before. Aside from being unique and interesting, is there some point behind it?

[Aunt Acid]

I think its totally office.

Does office mean "cool" now? Is that what the kids are saying these days? Tool is totally office.

[paraflux]

I think it was purposefully put in, and I think it stands for the fact that all of these tired cheap cliche phrases have already been thrown at him, he's just happy to throw them back.

[kether4602]

^ I like that interpretation.

[UFOtofu]

I think it ties into another interpretation of the song (as there are so many simultaneously) having to do with his own hypocrisy of each individual finding their own path spiritually. Previous albums/songs have dealt with anti-christian beliefs, but with 10,000 days (the song) he realizes his mother's christian faith is what gave her what he most admired about her. Also, take into account the "gift" he credits his mother as giving him as his voice. The Pot could be interpreted as Maynard's realization that he is a hypocrit for not letting those that have their beliefs, HAVE them, even though he does not agree with them. The preceding "echo" voice could then be his mother's voice from heaven coming down to him and then he projects it out to all of us. This would really help tie this song into the "theme" of the rest of the album as well, if you believe the case is that this album is themed.

[SpiraMirabilis]

I hate it. Sounds like something is messed up with the sound. Why do I want to hear an echo BEFORE the real words? I mean I love the song and the album but that kind of pisses me off. Just doesn't sound right. On the contrary, I think its the echoes that make the song. I'm not sure if it has any significant meaning, just a great effect.

I know this sort of thing has been done before, but so has a lot of effects they use like the talk box solo in Jambi which is done to great effect.

[plastik]

I think it ties into another interpretation of the song (as there are so many simultaneously) having to do with his own hypocrisy of each individual finding their own path spiritually. Previous albums/songs have dealt with anti-christian beliefs, but with 10,000 days (the song) he realizes his mother's christian faith is what gave her what he most admired about her. Also, take into account the "gift" he credits his mother as giving him as his voice. The Pot could be interpreted as Maynard's realization that he is a hypocrit for not letting those that have their beliefs, HAVE them, even though he does not agree with them. The preceding "echo" voice could then be his mother's voice from heaven coming down to him and then he projects it out to all of us. This would really help tie this song into the "theme" of the rest of the album as well, if you believe the case is that this album is themed.

Agreed ... my take on the song as well.

[Juzblome]

I posted this in another thread about this same thing. As to how it may have been done.








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My thoery is....
and I could be totaly wrong.

The first quiet vocal you hear is the actual vocal track, and the loud one is the Delay.

With Anaolg Delays you have a Mix of Dry (the original signal) and Wet (the effect) you can mix these 2 together to get different amounts of the delay. Some analog delays have a bit of cross talk and won't do a full on delay without the dry sound still comeing from the outputs. (like you hear in the song)

Now, I think the Dalay is the main vocal part up till the first "You must have been High"
There is deffinatly a change in the vocal sound at that point and it stays the rest of the song. Also the faint voice that preceeds the main vocal is not there any more.
I'm thinking that in mixing the song they experimented with a 1/4 note delay (that's how far the faint vocal is to the loud one) and then took out the dry vocal from the delay and liked it. If you notice the part after Danny and Adam come in the Vocals fall on a different beat than they do at the very beginning. So I'm thinking they delayed the first few lines and liked it with out the dry vocal.


What I hear on "the pot" doesn't realy sound like print through to me.

That's what I think.

[ratking]

i think he may be on to something..

[implandnoises]

Also note the part in Schism where it goes "cold, cold, cold, cold, cold silence has...."
I think that is the same effect.

[ToolKlouD]

The echos are almost subliminal. im sure there is purpose to it. i was surprised when i put the cd in my good cd player and turned it up real loud, and noticed the off in the distance "Who are you..." and then the up close following. its neat. I almost wonder if they are trying to see who really is listening to the music. of course just about anyone on here is, i mean if your posting about it and your that interested. there is nothing wrong with that.

[duncang]

I think it ties into another interpretation of the song (as there are so many simultaneously) having to do with his own hypocrisy of each individual finding their own path spiritually. Previous albums/songs have dealt with anti-christian beliefs, but with 10,000 days (the song) he realizes his mother's christian faith is what gave her what he most admired about her. Also, take into account the "gift" he credits his mother as giving him as his voice. The Pot could be interpreted as Maynard's realization that he is a hypocrit for not letting those that have their beliefs, HAVE them, even though he does not agree with them. The preceding "echo" voice could then be his mother's voice from heaven coming down to him and then he projects it out to all of us. This would really help tie this song into the "theme" of the rest of the album as well, if you believe the case is that this album is themed.

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=54918

From my theory, the echo could be Maynard, and the real voice Judith. Take a look.

[44&4]

No, that's nothing new, except it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. He's not being reversed and there's no delay. So, ... I don't know what you're getting at. It's him singing normal, and in the distance (probably deamplified). Plus it's before he actually sings. A delay would be after.

Hey Dunski, if "delay would be after", wouldn't reverse delay be before? And it has everything to do with the original post, just not what you were thinking. The poster was trying to explain how the sound was made, not trying to lend some high-minded "deep spiritual significance" to what amounts to a cool sound effect!

Now, I suppose some douche is gonna fire off some venomous missive about how the "pre-echo" (yes Timmy, there is such an effect) represents someone actually being "high", or it's a representation of the 2-faced individual/group the song is aimed at, but I'm not so sure that's hitting the nail on the head-more like thumb! Hell, it could even be an artifact from analog recording methods, and the guys decided to keep it. If you're old enough, grab a cassette or two, and play them very loudly over your current stereo setup. Odds are you'll hear both the side you're listening to, and the reverse side (much quieter, but still there). In short, don't jump down somebody else's throat unless you're ready to be eaten for breakfast!

[MasterOfKtulu109]

I found it interesting once I actually thought about the intro. I've always noticed the echoes, but it never clicked in that it's an echo of what he's going to say. "(Who are you) Who are you to wave your..." it happens for a while too. Anyone have any idea why they chose to do something so unusual? I have thoughts, it's an effect for song meaning, but I'll get into that if provoked.


there's no meaning. it's just an effect. there isn't a hidden meaning behind every little thing they do on an album.

[Godin]

The first quiet vocal you hear is the actual vocal track, and the loud one is the Delay...There is deffinatly a change in the vocal sound at that point and it stays the rest of the song. Also the faint voice that preceeds the main vocal is not there any more.

I've been thinking of starting a thread on this subject... glad to see somebody else already did. I think you got it exactly with what you said here, Juzblome. I had a bit of doubt though since I thought it'd be awkward to sing before cue so that the delay arrived on beat.

Some people have attributed significant meaning to this vocal effect... I dunno, maybe, but I think you hit it more with your point that they probably just liked the sound of it. Makes him sound like the vocalist in Maroon 5, or Jamiroquai even. Gives him that soulful sound for his big vocal solo.

[iAMtheMA!]

Reverse delay/reverb on the vocals is nothing new...
i'm not sure if anyone said that it was "new", my friend. so, why? why did they do this "effect" or processing? what does it represent? how are we to interpret this? the initial foothole is the obvious "reverse delay". so, where do we go from here?

tool, they only create things if it has a purpose or meaning to do so.
fact.

[ToolKlouD]

well i have been thinking about this awhile now. Even better... i smoked up and listened to the song at a reasonible high volume. although we might never really know why there are echos or whatever it may be, everyones opinion counts towards something. As i was saying, i was listening to the song. Now my thought is ufotofu is pretty damn close on this topic. however I think the echos are about the thoughts of people... both the thoughts that people actually say and the ones that never come out. Kinda going on the matter of thinking before you speak, and speaking instinctivly. Sometimes you think about things and never say them, and sometimes they should just be let out. I also kinda think it goes with the theme of the album a little bit, in many many different ways.

[HelloImCarter]

Hey Dunski, if "delay would be after", wouldn't reverse delay be before? And it has everything to do with the original post, just not what you were thinking. The poster was trying to explain how the sound was made, not trying to lend some high-minded "deep spiritual significance" to what amounts to a cool sound effect!

Now, I suppose some douche is gonna fire off some venomous missive about how the "pre-echo" (yes Timmy, there is such an effect) represents someone actually being "high", or it's a representation of the 2-faced individual/group the song is aimed at, but I'm not so sure that's hitting the nail on the head-more like thumb! Hell, it could even be an artifact from analog recording methods, and the guys decided to keep it. If you're old enough, grab a cassette or two, and play them very loudly over your current stereo setup. Odds are you'll hear both the side you're listening to, and the reverse side (much quieter, but still there). In short, don't jump down somebody else's throat unless you're ready to be eaten for breakfast!

"Let me be the first to (*GUNSHOT*) pop that bubble and send you hurdling back to earth." I started this thread, made that comment, and retracted my statement immediately after. Heh, heh! I realized what he was trying to convey, and a reverse delay can be initially interpretted as a reverse effect on a delay. So maybe, my tripe and simple-minded friend, you shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions either.

And P.S., Yes, I wasn't to know how the effect was made, but I was curious for interpretations as to why? Whether it be simple, of spiritual, I'm not excluding people's thoughts, as long as they're actually thought-out.

[Crissaegrim]

In Jimmy they do something similar with the line, "Showing me where it all begain". I think that was very intentional, like the voice telling him it was whispering it to him or subtley letting him know.

[iAMtheMA!]

is it reverse-delay?

or

do we consider the delay on the track to be the song?

hmmmmmmmmmmmm...





also,

In Jimmy they do something similar with the line, "Showing me where it all begain". I think that was very intentional, like the voice telling him it was whispering it to him or subtley letting him know.

dude, tool does THAT effect (a different thing from what we're discussing) quite often - see "vicarious" for example.

[27 Years]

I really like the echoes.

[Crissaegrim]

dude, tool does THAT effect (a different thing from what we're discussing) quite often - see "vicarious" for example.



It is so what we are disscussing. It is the same basic idea and my point is just that they do that kind of stuff intentionally and not just for effect.

[44&4]

(quote)"Let me be the first to (*GUNSHOT*) pop that bubble and send you hurdling back to earth." I started this thread, made that comment, and retracted my statement immediately after. Heh, heh! I realized what he was trying to convey, and a reverse delay can be initially interpretted as a reverse effect on a delay. So maybe, my tripe and simple-minded friend, you shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions either.

And P.S., Yes, I wasn't to know how the effect was made, but I was curious for interpretations as to why? Whether it be simple, of spiritual, I'm not excluding people's thoughts, as long as they're actually thought-out."(end-quote)

Carter, first, let me apologize for coming out swinging, and for missing your retraction, but "Fuck all these gun-toting, hip gangster wannabes..."
And as far as "my tripe (intestines of livestock for consumption) and simple minded friend.." I think you meant "trite", but could be wrong....Either way, enthusiasm doesn't equate stupidity, or you too, despite retractions, could be wearing the big "S", especially if what you type and what you mean are the same!

Now, as to the why I still think it just sounded cool, but, like any great art, if you take more away from it than that, as long as it does you some good, keep it!

Pass the syrup!

[El Shaggy]

I don't know if I am the only one, but i recently picked up on a second echo in the song, after the lyrics 'fuckin' hypocrite'. It's not an identical echo, but more or less the opposite of the beginning echoes. I didn't notice it until a few days ago, the bass is just too jammin' i guess?

Echo is a really nice word to type.

[arcane]

I think the echo is being used purely as a base track so that when Maynard came to sing it, he knew which note to sing. Singing a cappella is difficult and if none of the intro was processed (like some say), then a carefully placed 'hint' would work quite nicely.

[individualthoughtpatterns]

I record all the time, and that happens constantly with delay. its not something you usually cut out, and this seems too common to be intentional. If any other songs started with only vocals, chances are you'd hear something similar. They use those kinds of effects all the time on vocal tracks.

[Phorty]

I think it ties into another interpretation of the song (as there are so many simultaneously) having to do with his own hypocrisy of each individual finding their own path spiritually. Previous albums/songs have dealt with anti-christian beliefs, but with 10,000 days (the song) he realizes his mother's christian faith is what gave her what he most admired about her. Also, take into account the "gift" he credits his mother as giving him as his voice. The Pot could be interpreted as Maynard's realization that he is a hypocrit for not letting those that have their beliefs, HAVE them, even though he does not agree with them. The preceding "echo" voice could then be his mother's voice from heaven coming down to him and then he projects it out to all of us. This would really help tie this song into the "theme" of the rest of the album as well, if you believe the case is that this album is themed.

Agreed .

Also , anyone notice how the last wing flutter from 10,000 days is actually the first sound you hear on The Pot aside from the echoe reverb ?

Which would give the album more unity , Jambi supposedly being about his relationship with his son , wings 1&2 about his mother and The pot about him.

The rest of the album sounds like the two kinds of experiences you can have on psychedelics , as in , good introspective trip (intension/right in two) and the terrified bad trip (lost keys/rosetta stoned).

Anyone? Anyone?

[shifty50fs]

I think the echo is being used purely as a base track so that when Maynard came to sing it, he knew which note to sing. Singing a cappella is difficult and if none of the intro was processed (like some say), then a carefully placed 'hint' would work quite nicely.

That's what I always thought, I just wonder why they left it in there. It's kind of a neat effect once the actual vocal track starts...I think its the reason the word 'around' sounds like 'ay-ee-around.' Maybe they liked that sound better than the dry track.

[scottybeans]

Very interesting ideas here, but why can't it just be taken as a part of the song with no crazy special meaning behind it :O?

[O.G.T.92]

It's a studio trick known as backwards echo, Jimmy page claims to have "invented" it on the early zep albums, you can hear it in Whole lotta love.
Maynard was probably just shopping around for a way to jazz up the line and make it more interesting for us to yenta it up about.

[DON IOTAE]

I found it interesting once I actually thought about the intro. I've always noticed the echoes, but it never clicked in that it's an echo of what he's going to say. "(Who are you) Who are you to wave your..." it happens for a while too. Anyone have any idea why they chose to do something so unusual? I have thoughts, it's an effect for song meaning, but I'll get into that if provoked.

id thought about that one, and:

i dont know. right now, it just sounds cool.

[DON IOTAE]

For another fun echo, listen hard with your right ear at 2:36 =)

i think its MJK throwing it back at himself...

[Juzblome]

It's a studio trick known as backwards echo, Jimmy page claims to have "invented" it on the early zep albums, you can hear it in Whole lotta love.
Maynard was probably just shopping around for a way to jazz up the line and make it more interesting for us to yenta it up about.



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Print-through (sometimes referred to as bleed-through) is a generally undesirable effect that arises in the use of magnetic tape for storing analogue information, in particular music.

The proximity of layers of tape on the spools of a cassette or reel to reel tape causes a weak imprint of magnetic information to be transferred to adjacent layers, effectively shifting a copy of the signal backwards and forwards along the tape. This can sometimes be heard as pre- or post-echo. Thinner tapes (designed for longer running times, since more tape can be held on the same spool) are more prone to the effect than thicker tapes, and tapes held in storage for a long period or exposed to a weak magnetic field can show pronounced print-through. Digital tapes are not affected in the same manner as the imprint is generally too weak to change the state of bits recorded on adjacent layers of the tape.

The classic example of print-through occurs during the quiet portions of Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love. The pre-echo of "way down inside, woman" is heard during this passage (4:00 to 4:16).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through




Page is lieing. And this isn't what is happening on the pot.

[Convoy_X]

It's the so the song can kick ass before it kicks ass.

[DON IOTAE]

It's the so the song can kick ass before it kicks ass.

QFT

i lol'd

[WaggySTG]

I think I figured this one out. I think the song stands on its own, however, if you notice, when he performs it live, he holds off on the second part, so the audience sings the "pre-echo." I remember hearing about how they played Coachella, and he sang the first part, and right when he should've started the second, everyone in the crowd did, even though the album hadn't come out in enough time for people to know it that well. He "chastised" the audience for stealing the album, but he kept doing it at subsequent shows. If you notice, it almost makes the live version sound more like the recorded version... which kinda adds to the whole "pre-echo" idea, in that he seems to have anticipated the result and self-actualized it.

[DON IOTAE]

and whatever for?

[jevons]

ya know, it takes so much time to sift through all this, and by the time you get to your turn, your girlfriend's asleep, and you just want to talk aboot your points, and say: the delay refers to Judith criticising Jimmy from the past and beyond; but you're so tired you just don't care anymore.

The point aboot the dry and wet vocals is well-stated.

[jevons]

I think I figured this one out. I think the song stands on its own, however, if you notice, when he performs it live, he holds off on the second part, so the audience sings the "pre-echo." I remember hearing about how they played Coachella, and he sang the first part, and right when he should've started the second, everyone in the crowd did, even though the album hadn't come out in enough time for people to know it that well. He "chastised" the audience for stealing the album, but he kept doing it at subsequent shows. If you notice, it almost makes the live version sound more like the recorded version... which kinda adds to the whole "pre-echo" idea, in that he seems to have anticipated the result and self-actualized it.

Stands on its own how?

[insectpinsNR]

i like this song

[conor moore]

first time i noticed that i was like that was fuckin awesome and i listened to the begining a couple of times

[DON IOTAE]

bumped for relevance

[bassmaster]

Tool like to make people think.
There might not be any deep reasoninf having a 'reverse delay' other than to make people think about it.
It works too, clever idea.

[away_from_me]

I dont know if there is an actual meaning to the echo or not, but if you listen to Jimmy then you can hear the same effect right before he says "Showing me where it all began".

[Matthew77]

I dont know if there is an actual meaning to the echo or not, but if you listen to Jimmy then you can hear the same effect right before he says "Showing me where it all began".

Also in Jimmy he does it right before "Waiting for me to free it by...."

[Hodge]

yo guys, what is the purpose of adam using flange and delay and playing every song in drop D?

what's your interpretation on this?

[shifty50fs]

yo guys, what is the purpose of adam using flange and delay and playing every song in drop D?

what's your interpretation on this?

I think its a comment on our inability to learn from our past and embrace the possibilities of the future, as well as the need for change in our society in both the public and private sectors.

I've heard he just likes to liven up his sound, expand the range of the instrument, and create layering and atmosphere...I would hope tool is a little deeper than this though.

[insaner]

It's the so the song can kick ass before it kicks ass.


yup.

[dmurf]

I hate it. Sounds like something is messed up with the sound. Why do I want to hear an echo BEFORE the real words? I mean I love the song and the album but that kind of pisses me off. Just doesn't sound right.
eh, just more reason to say it's about Zep.

[Kody27]

I think the analog tape thing is interesting, No, Led Zeppelin did not invent reverse echo, but they do use it on the harmonica on When the Levee Breaks, and no reverse echo is not what you hear on whole lotta love, as far as robert plants lyrics are concerned. I know Tool used a bunch of weird and off the wall recording techniques and i know they experiment with EVERY single path they can, so who's to say maynard didn't want his voice on analog tape? I think it's cool how tool can take something accidentally discovered, such as the pre recorded versions of songs leaking through the sound on the same tape spool used, and utilized it to their advantage. Zep might of laid the stepping stones down for tool, but they didn't pioneer that trick.

[The Pit]

I found it interesting once I actually thought about the intro. I've always noticed the echoes, but it never clicked in that it's an echo of what he's going to say. "(Who are you) Who are you to wave your..." it happens for a while too. Anyone have any idea why they chose to do something so unusual? I have thoughts, it's an effect for song meaning, but I'll get into that if provoked.


Seeing as most people beleve this to be a song detailing some kind of drug controversy, I thought the echoes were just an extra psychedelic treat for those listening while high. Strange thought I know, but it gives a good ironic tone to the song. Imo