Eulogy v. Wings

[Yondo]

At one point, considered compiling all the songs that may refer to Maynard's Mother, and it included Judith (APC) and The Reflection/Disposition/Triad trilogy, and Eulogy. However, I've relooked at Eulogy, and decided that it may have been indirectly about Judith Marie, but not immediately.

Not, simply, because it says "HE had alot to say", but for other reasons.

"This song is about martyrs." - MJK
For one.

And when I thought about it, it seemed like Eulogy was about the people who fret about things they obsess over, about needlessly throwing away your life for starngers... which, like I said, could include Judith Marie, but is certainly not limited to.

So, when we compare his views of his mother between Wings and previous times, we cannot cite Eulogy (Get off your fucking cross, we need the fucking space).

Thoughts?

[Absolute_Zero]

I thought Eulogy was about Bill Hicks, considering the inside of the CD.

Just kidding (partially).

Seriously though, the "get of your fucking cross" fits with the ideas in "Judith", but I do think the 'He' thing kills it for me right out of the gates.

[Terry21]

Explain the Reflection trilogy meaning with Maynards mother.

[Jambi Dexter]

you've got all wrong man
about maynard's mother:
Jimmy
Judith
Wings

[Scarlett]

you've got all wrong man
about maynard's mother:
Jimmy
Judith
Wings

Jimmy?? I didn't know that speaking of Judith ok Maynard said that this is about his mother Wings heard something about that but Jimmy ????

[bellamadia]

Jimmy?? I didn't know that speaking of Judith ok Maynard said that this is about his mother Wings heard something about that but Jimmy ????

Hey, you're fairly new so you probably haven't read the posts yet, but somewhere there is a thread that explains all of this. :)

Jimmy is about Maynard at age 11 (Jimmy was his nickname, since his real first name is James). That is the year his mother had her stroke to become paralyzed. Look at the lyrics and you'll see the connection now.

Some say, including myself ,that in addition to Judith, Jimmy and Wings (1&2) that Orestes is also about his mom and her last days. "Umbilical residue keeping me from killing you" perhaps could refer to a time when Maynard and family may have had to make a decision about life support for his mother. And "one more medicated peaceful moment" could refer to giving her meds to help he to feel as good as possible in her last days.

[bellamadia]

Ok, I don't often insist I am right but Eulogy is NOT NOT NOT about his mom. It is a NEGATIVE song for someone whom Maynard does NOT respect.

It is not about Bill Hicks either, whom he also had a lot of respect for!

He stated in a interview (I will try to look for it) that it's about L. Ron Hubbard.

See..... as example.....

He had a lot to say, he had a lot of NOTHING to say. (negative and insulting)

Told us you weren't afraid to die, well then SO LONG. (negative and L. Ron said this)

HE had a voice that was strong and loud, We'll miss HIM (a man, not mom and it's sarcastic)

Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but HIS heart (Hypocrite, not honest)

You've claimed all this time that you would die for me (L. Ron said this)

Get off your fucking cross, we need the fuckin space to nail the next FOOL martyr. (negative and L. Ron was a martyr)

You must be crucified for your sins and your lies. (negative and insulting)

[bellamadia]

And sorry Yondo, but Reflection/Disposistion/Triad about his MOM? WHAT? No no no. I'm afraid you have miscontrude all of these songs' meanings.... so sad because Reflections has amazing meaning in it that you have obviously missed.

[Muladhara]

Some say, including myself ,that in addition to Judith, Jimmy and Wings (1&2) that Orestes is also about his mom and her last days. "Umbilical residue keeping me from killing you" perhaps could refer to a time when Maynard and family may have had to make a decision about life support for his mother. And "one more medicated peaceful moment" could refer to giving her meds to help he to feel as good as possible in her last days.


I would have said Orestes was about a relationship where the only thing keeping two people who Hate each other together is sex.

Kinda like how I see Pushit.

[bellamadia]

I would have said Orestes was about a relationship where the only thing keeping two people who Hate each other together is sex.

Kinda like how I see Pushit.

Yeah, the mom thing was just my thought on Orestes but I honestly have no clue on that one. Just a theory. The others I feel stronger about.

[ThreeDeviations]

Ok, I don't often insist I am right but Eulogy is NOT NOT NOT about his mom. It is a NEGATIVE song for someone whom Maynard does NOT respect.

It is not about Bill Hicks either, whom he also had a lot of respect for!

He stated in a interview (I will try to look for it) that it's about L. Ron Hubbard.

See..... as example.....

He had a lot to say, he had a lot of NOTHING to say. (negative and insulting)

Told us you weren't afraid to die, well then SO LONG. (negative and L. Ron said this)

HE had a voice that was strong and loud, We'll miss HIM (a man, not mom and it's sarcastic)

Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but HIS heart (Hypocrite, not honest)

You've claimed all this time that you would die for me (L. Ron said this)

Get off your fucking cross, we need the fuckin space to nail the next FOOL martyr. (negative and L. Ron was a martyr)

You must be crucified for your sins and your lies. (negative and insulting)


Yeeeessss! Love it.

[bellamadia]

Yeeeessss! Love it.

LOL, thanks. I actually thought of you when I wrote this, it's your style. ;)

[ThreeDeviations]

LOL, thanks. I actually thought of you when I wrote this, it's your style. ;)


haha.. yes it is.

[Nate-Dogg85]

look at it like this... maynard was mad at bill hicks for dying. Obviously there is nothing you can do when someone dies, unless they kill themselves... But think of it as maynard felt all of the feelings of 'gravity' when hicks died. It was kind of "how could you leave me like this...."

You might think this is about someone that you dont like, but until i had a close friend of mine die i didnt really understand the true purpose of this song. Music is a vent, and expression. In eulogy he was expressing his anger and frustration of the death of bill hicks

[#Notion]

look at it like this... maynard was mad at bill hicks for dying. Obviously there is nothing you can do when someone dies, unless they kill themselves... But think of it as maynard felt all of the feelings of 'gravity' when hicks died. It was kind of "how could you leave me like this...."

You might think this is about someone that you dont like, but until i had a close friend of mine die i didnt really understand the true purpose of this song. Music is a vent, and expression. In eulogy he was expressing his anger and frustration of the death of bill hicks

Yeah, and well, but,

no.

[bellamadia]

look at it like this... maynard was mad at bill hicks for dying. Obviously there is nothing you can do when someone dies, unless they kill themselves... But think of it as maynard felt all of the feelings of 'gravity' when hicks died. It was kind of "how could you leave me like this...."

You might think this is about someone that you dont like, but until i had a close friend of mine die i didnt really understand the true purpose of this song. Music is a vent, and expression. In eulogy he was expressing his anger and frustration of the death of bill hicks


Nate, I understand your reasoning here, good thoughts, but it's not correct in the context of this song.

[Yondo]

And sorry Yondo, but Reflection/Disposistion/Triad about his MOM? WHAT? No no no. I'm afraid you have miscontrude all of these songs' meanings.... so sad because Reflections has amazing meaning in it that you have obviously missed.


Not really, per se, about his Mom, but after I listened to 10,000 Days and did research and learned, I can't help but think, as I hear the thunder in the background, that I'm watching the weather change.

Now, here might be a longshot, but it's how I've felt. Bear in mind his mother's virtuous ways, and her paralysis. So, even if it's not about her, it's about her INFLUENCE.

"Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
I pray the light lifts me out
Before I pine away."
-Deadly sins, not to mention they lead to Guilt.

But, then, as I look at this last bit, it seems like a Eulogy of it's own...
"So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,"
-He's wishing her a safe passage after death?

"And you will come to find that we are all one mind
Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable."
-Reassuring her of the AfterLife, collective-counsciousness.

"Bringing out our hope and reason ...
before we pine away."
-Gnostic Death?


Anyway,it's off topic, but I figured I'd explain my thoughts.

[bellamadia]

Not really, per se, about his Mom, but after I listened to 10,000 Days and did research and learned, I can't help but think, as I hear the thunder in the background, that I'm watching the weather change.

Now, here might be a longshot, but it's how I've felt. Bear in mind his mother's virtuous ways, and her paralysis. So, even if it's not about her, it's about her INFLUENCE.

.

I see now how you made the connections. Based on your interpretation, which is different than mine, I would say that it is more general and on the topic that it is about any person.

[PriceisRight]

Eulogy can work about anyone....just like most tool songs.

It's about hypicritical people. Not necissarily martyrs...but martyr wanna be's.

"Why then are you so surprised when you hear your own eulogy?"

see...the person was surprised to hear that his death was asked for. All the bull wasn't backed up.

So anyone you know like that this song is for.

also....the get off your fucking cross is that person is like "Look what I'm doing for you!!!" and they aren't doing anything.

So people who can throw their life away for something they didn't believe or hypicritical people

[OGT from back in the day]

Ok, I don't often insist I am right but Eulogy is NOT NOT NOT about his mom. It is a NEGATIVE song for someone whom Maynard does NOT respect.

It is not about Bill Hicks either, whom he also had a lot of respect for!

He stated in a interview (I will try to look for it) that it's about L. Ron Hubbard.

See..... as example.....

He had a lot to say, he had a lot of NOTHING to say. (negative and insulting)

Told us you weren't afraid to die, well then SO LONG. (negative and L. Ron said this)

HE had a voice that was strong and loud, We'll miss HIM (a man, not mom and it's sarcastic)

Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but HIS heart (Hypocrite, not honest)

You've claimed all this time that you would die for me (L. Ron said this)

Get off your fucking cross, we need the fuckin space to nail the next FOOL martyr. (negative and L. Ron was a martyr)

You must be crucified for your sins and your lies. (negative and insulting)
how many times do we have to go over this? maynard said himself...."it is about martyrs"....not one specific martyr, martyrs in general

[PriceisRight]

how many times do we have to go over this? maynard said himself...."it is about martyrs"....not one specific martyr, martyrs in general

he also said one time prison sex was just about anal sex

[smeefsmeef]

You must be crucified for your sins and your lies. (negative and insulting)

You forgot, "GOODBYEEEEEEEE!!!!(positive way of saying " farewell")

[Theman22]

I reckon theres a lot of songs on 13th step that could be about his mom.

[smeefsmeef]

Maynard may quite possibly think of his mother the next time he sings eulogy, live, though... even if it was not written about her.

[æmoeba•°·.]

I see how you made the "indirect" connections about his mother.

_________
EXTRA [Random] INFORMATION:

If you didn't already know, Eulogy was about Paul D'Amour, leaving the band, and Justin Coming in the band.


"Get off your fucking cross" reffering to Paul, "We need the fucking space, to nail the next fool martyr" reffering to Justin.

Tool, at that time, basically reffered to themselves as martyrs.

[paraflux]

LOL at everyone trying to tell others what songs should mean to them

[Kim Jong-Il'n]

the songs are not to be campared

[ATARI]

Yep

Apples to oranges here.

[æmoeba•°·.]

That's why it was stated "Indirectly" connected. Meaning it is almost an impossible estimate. Basically, making the hypothosis useless to even post about. I gave you what Eulogy was about, so you can basically make the assumption off of my early post.

[KlepTIK]

Hey, you're fairly new so you probably haven't read the posts yet, but somewhere there is a thread that explains all of this. :)

Jimmy is about Maynard at age 11 (Jimmy was his nickname, since his real first name is James). That is the year his mother had her stroke to become paralyzed. Look at the lyrics and you'll see the connection now.

Some say, including myself ,that in addition to Judith, Jimmy and Wings (1&2) that Orestes is also about his mom and her last days. "Umbilical residue keeping me from killing you" perhaps could refer to a time when Maynard and family may have had to make a decision about life support for his mother. And "one more medicated peaceful moment" could refer to giving her meds to help he to feel as good as possible in her last days.


Wasn't Orestes written by Billy Howerdel ?

[bellamadia]

how many times do we have to go over this? maynard said himself...."it is about martyrs"....not one specific martyr, martyrs in general

I don't know who the fuck you're talking to because "we" never went over this. Yes, this song can be applied to any martyr, absolutely... but Maynard said he wrote it with L. Ron in mind.

[swampyfool]

There seems to be much debate about which of Maynard's lyrics apply to his mother, and I think that maybe this ammounts to wasted breath (or rather, wasted finger dexterity). Maynard is forty-two years old (twelve years past trusting); he spent just over twenty-five percent of his life (eleven-plus of forty-two-plus years)- including the formative years- being indoctrinated into his mother's faith; he then spent just under two-thirds of his life (twenty-seven-plus- 10,000 days- of forty-two-plus years) struggling with that indoctrination- and eventually renouncing it, and mightily so- as Judith withered away in paralysis, wondering what kind of a "God" allows the most faithful of his flock to suffer so cruelly; and that leaves just under one-tenth of his life (the remaining span of under four of forty-two-plus years) without a living-world connection to Judith. Not intending to diminish the effect of a mother on the formative constitution of all people, I posit that Maynard's life has been particularly invested in his mother's tribulations of life and faith (what a bold and daring assertion- I know); and furthermore that his perspective on ANYTHING has been tempered by the filter of his relationship with Judith.

All that said, perhaps a more insightful question than "Which of Maynard's lyrical constructions apply to his mother?" would be, "How does the ideological foil presented by the relationship of mother and son manifest itself- individually- into every one of Maynard's lyrical constructions?" My point is that Maynard's contexts are dominated by Judith's struggles and her virtuous nature in the face of said adversity, and I don't think a day passed/passes when Maynard didn't/doesn't recall his mother's anguish. Thus, it would be hard for me to imagine that any song of Tool's lexicon could exist, lyrically, outside the influence of Judith Marie Keenan.

Sometimes the manifestations are direct and implicit, and we can pick out the connections- if not their intricate, deeper, personal meanings- with relative ease; as in cases like "Jimmy," "Judith," or "Wings for Marie/10,000 Days." Sometimes the manifestations are quite veiled and harder to see, and we will seldom, if ever, be able to fathom the connections- let alone their intricate, deeper, personal meanings- without months or years of reflection and ordering of context; as in the case of the suggested application (earlier on in this thread) of "Watch the weather change" from Disposition/Reflection/Triad. In latter cases, we will not likely ever be able to infallibly varify our inferrences, as we will never (in all likelihood) have such a personal connection to Maynard's life and struggles as to gain such transcendant insight. Yet still, such suggestions are quite intriguing in that they allow each of us to view the possible manifestations of Judith's prolific and powerful influence from multiple perspectives as diverse as we are.

Interesting note for the future of that influence . . . At the end of "Wings for Marie," Maynard leaves us by intoning, "So I'm alright now, it's time for us to let you go." Is it possible that Maynard is saying that it is time that he free himself of this influence; that he move forward with his life and his perspective into a more individual identity? True, the very next track on the album is a glowing, final tribute of love and admiration for Judith Marie Keenan. But after that, the focus of the album seems to shift to a more extroverted frame of reference, wherein Maynard's lyrical thrust seems to be aimed more at the interactions among humankind (and non-humankind). I am not suggesting that future lyrics will be devoid of Judith's influence, just that they will be of the type identified above as "quite veiled and harder to see." Maybe we've heard the last of direct homages to Judith and her life . . ?

[bellamadia]

There seems to be much debate about which of Maynard's lyrics apply to his mother, and I think that maybe this ammounts to wasted breath (or rather, wasted finger dexterity). Maynard is forty-two years old (twelve years past trusting); he spent just over twenty-five percent of his life (eleven-plus of forty-two-plus years)- including the formative years- being indoctrinated into his mother's faith; he then spent just under two-thirds of his life (twenty-seven-plus- 10,000 days- of forty-two-plus years) struggling with that indoctrination- and eventually renouncing it, and mightily so- as Judith withered away in paralysis, wondering what kind of a "God" allows the most faithful of his flock to suffer so cruelly; and that leaves just under one-tenth of his life (the remaining span of under four of forty-two-plus years) without a living-world connection to Judith. Not intending to diminish the effect of a mother on the formative constitution of all people, I posit that Maynard's life has been particularly invested in his mother's tribulations of life and faith (what a bold and daring assertion- I know); and furthermore that his perspective on ANYTHING has been tempered by the filter of his relationship with Judith.

All that said, perhaps a more insightful question than "Which of Maynard's lyrical constructions apply to his mother?" would be, "How does the ideological foil presented by the relationship of mother and son manifest itself- individually- into every one of Maynard's lyrical constructions?" My point is that Maynard's contexts are dominated by Judith's struggles and her virtuous nature in the face of said adversity, and I don't think a day passed/passes when Maynard didn't/doesn't recall his mother's anguish. Thus, it would be hard for me to imagine that any song of Tool's lexicon could exist, lyrically, outside the influence of Judith Marie Keenan.

Sometimes the manifestations are direct and implicit, and we can pick out the connections- if not their intricate, deeper, personal meanings- with relative ease; as in cases like "Jimmy," "Judith," or "Wings for Marie/10,000 Days." Sometimes the manifestations are quite veiled and harder to see, and we will seldom, if ever, be able to fathom the connections- let alone their intricate, deeper, personal meanings- without months or years of reflection and ordering of context; as in the case of the suggested application (earlier on in this thread) of "Watch the weather change" from Disposition/Reflection/Triad. In latter cases, we will not likely ever be able to infallibly varify our inferrences, as we will never (in all likelihood) have such a personal connection to Maynard's life and struggles as to gain such transcendant insight. Yet still, such suggestions are quite intriguing in that they allow each of us to view the possible manifestations of Judith's prolific and powerful influence from multiple perspectives as diverse as we are.

Interesting note for the future of that influence . . . At the end of "Wings for Marie," Maynard leaves us by intoning, "So I'm alright now, it's time for us to let you go." Is it possible that Maynard is saying that it is time that he free himself of this influence; that he move forward with his life and his perspective into a more individual identity? True, the very next track on the album is a glowing, final tribute of love and admiration for Judith Marie Keenan. But after that, the focus of the album seems to shift to a more extroverted frame of reference, wherein Maynard's lyrical thrust seems to be aimed more at the interactions among humankind (and non-humankind). I am not suggesting that future lyrics will be devoid of Judith's influence, just that they will be of the type identified above as "quite veiled and harder to see." Maybe we've heard the last of direct homages to Judith and her life . . ?

Yes, I completely agree that everything that has happened in Maynard's life has of course affected his views, thoughts, words, beliefs, etc. Particularly his relationship with his mom. However, that doesn't mean that these (or other) songs are ABOUT his mom. That is my point.

[Yondo]

There seems to be much debate about which of Maynard's lyrics apply to his mother, and I think that maybe this ammounts to wasted breath (or rather, wasted finger dexterity). Maynard is forty-two years old (twelve years past trusting); he spent just over twenty-five percent of his life (eleven-plus of forty-two-plus years)- including the formative years- being indoctrinated into his mother's faith; he then spent just under two-thirds of his life (twenty-seven-plus- 10,000 days- of forty-two-plus years) struggling with that indoctrination- and eventually renouncing it, and mightily so- as Judith withered away in paralysis, wondering what kind of a "God" allows the most faithful of his flock to suffer so cruelly; and that leaves just under one-tenth of his life (the remaining span of under four of forty-two-plus years) without a living-world connection to Judith. Not intending to diminish the effect of a mother on the formative constitution of all people, I posit that Maynard's life has been particularly invested in his mother's tribulations of life and faith (what a bold and daring assertion- I know); and furthermore that his perspective on ANYTHING has been tempered by the filter of his relationship with Judith.

All that said, perhaps a more insightful question than "Which of Maynard's lyrical constructions apply to his mother?" would be, "How does the ideological foil presented by the relationship of mother and son manifest itself- individually- into every one of Maynard's lyrical constructions?" My point is that Maynard's contexts are dominated by Judith's struggles and her virtuous nature in the face of said adversity, and I don't think a day passed/passes when Maynard didn't/doesn't recall his mother's anguish. Thus, it would be hard for me to imagine that any song of Tool's lexicon could exist, lyrically, outside the influence of Judith Marie Keenan.

Sometimes the manifestations are direct and implicit, and we can pick out the connections- if not their intricate, deeper, personal meanings- with relative ease; as in cases like "Jimmy," "Judith," or "Wings for Marie/10,000 Days." Sometimes the manifestations are quite veiled and harder to see, and we will seldom, if ever, be able to fathom the connections- let alone their intricate, deeper, personal meanings- without months or years of reflection and ordering of context; as in the case of the suggested application (earlier on in this thread) of "Watch the weather change" from Disposition/Reflection/Triad. In latter cases, we will not likely ever be able to infallibly varify our inferrences, as we will never (in all likelihood) have such a personal connection to Maynard's life and struggles as to gain such transcendant insight. Yet still, such suggestions are quite intriguing in that they allow each of us to view the possible manifestations of Judith's prolific and powerful influence from multiple perspectives as diverse as we are.

Interesting note for the future of that influence . . . At the end of "Wings for Marie," Maynard leaves us by intoning, "So I'm alright now, it's time for us to let you go." Is it possible that Maynard is saying that it is time that he free himself of this influence; that he move forward with his life and his perspective into a more individual identity? True, the very next track on the album is a glowing, final tribute of love and admiration for Judith Marie Keenan. But after that, the focus of the album seems to shift to a more extroverted frame of reference, wherein Maynard's lyrical thrust seems to be aimed more at the interactions among humankind (and non-humankind). I am not suggesting that future lyrics will be devoid of Judith's influence, just that they will be of the type identified above as "quite veiled and harder to see." Maybe we've heard the last of direct homages to Judith and her life . . ?

In other words: All of Maynard's songs have to do with his mother a little bit.

So, bah. Don't poop on the party.

[swampyfool]

In other words: All of Maynard's songs have to do with his mother a little bit.

So, bah. Don't poop on the party.
I pooped on nothing. I even corroborated your "Watch the weather change," reference.

[Toolfan24]

Eulogy is in my opinion about Jesus. The lyrics seem to clearly express that it is. By the way, it is DEFINITELY NOT about Bill Hicks. The song presents the character as the antagonist. They would never portray Hicks that way.

[paraflux]

goddammit, I'm tired of the Eulogy is about this person, or that person...

[imatoolhed]

goddammit, I'm tired of the Eulogy is about this person, or that person...


LOUD NOISES...

... i believe that's what tool intends with most of thier songs. not what it means to them/him (mjk) but what they mean to you. i have my own thoughts on Eulogy like most ppl. as well as thier other tunes. some we all know what there about others we don't. that's why we're still discussing them. that's the fun and the old school mysteries that most bands now a days don't even come close to. putting the music first and letting it belong to you... the listener.

[bellamadia]

I pooped on nothing. I even corroborated your "Watch the weather change," reference.

I think that was directed at me, not you. And I agree, as I posted above, Maynard's like experiences influence all of his songs, but that doesn't mean they are ABOUT them.

[Yondo]

I pooped on nothing. I even corroborated your "Watch the weather change," reference.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning that seriously. You make a great point, one that finalized this topic. It was great of you to sum it up so eloquently.

[nighthawk]

you've got all wrong man
about maynard's mother:
Jimmy
Judith
Wings
I thought that jimmy was about Maynard.

[swampyfool]

I thought that jimmy was about Maynard.
It's about Maynard and Judith.

"Eleven and she was gone.
Eleven is when we waved good-bye.
Eleven is standing still,
Waiting for me to free him
By coming home."

She had her stroke and began her "10,000 days in the fire" when Maynard was eleven years old. I think that Maynard is personifying his innocence; innocence lost when his mother lost her life (as described in WFM- ". . . never lived a life . . ."). It seems to me that he wishes to reclaim his innocence by revisiting the tragedy- a metaphorical journey to the home of his innocence:

"Under a dead Ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home."

But now back to your originally scheduled programming . . .

[nighthawk]

It's about Maynard and Judith.

"Eleven and she was gone.
Eleven is when we waved good-bye.
Eleven is standing still,
Waiting for me to free him
By coming home."

She had her stroke and began her "10,000 days in the fire" when Maynard was eleven years old. I think that Maynard is personifying his innocence; innocence lost when his mother lost her life (as described in WFM- ". . . never lived a life . . ."). It seems to me that he wishes to reclaim his innocence by revisiting the tragedy- a metaphorical journey to the home of his innocence:

"Under a dead Ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home."

But now back to your originally scheduled programming . . .

Well, i thought than the She that is mention there was some sort of a lover but now that you wrote that, make sense to be Judith.

[Terry21]

Interesting that the number 11 seems to be recurring on 10,000 days also.

[OGT from back in the day]

I don't know who the fuck you're talking to because "we" never went over this. Yes, this song can be applied to any martyr, absolutely... but Maynard said he wrote it with L. Ron in mind.
ok first off, i went over this in another thread before and second, i just quoted him, ok?

[bellamadia]

ok first off, i went over this in another thread before and second, i just quoted him, ok?

ha ha ok ok, thought you were attacking me. Sorry, it's all good!

[roscoe.etc]

At one point, considered compiling all the songs that may refer to Maynard's Mother, and it included Judith (APC) and The Reflection/Disposition/Triad trilogy, and Eulogy. However, I've relooked at Eulogy, and decided that it may have been indirectly about Judith Marie, but not immediately.

Not, simply, because it says "HE had alot to say", but for other reasons.

"This song is about martyrs." - MJK
For one.

And when I thought about it, it seemed like Eulogy was about the people who fret about things they obsess over, about needlessly throwing away your life for starngers... which, like I said, could include Judith Marie, but is certainly not limited to.

So, when we compare his views of his mother between Wings and previous times, we cannot cite Eulogy (Get off your fucking cross, we need the fucking space).

Thoughts?

Jesus Christ


I thought Eulogy was about Bill Hicks, considering the inside of the CD.

Just kidding <b>(partially)<b>.

Seriously though, the "get of your fucking cross" fits with the ideas in "Judith", but I do think the 'He' thing kills it for me right out of the gates.

Jesus Christ

[Yondo]

Jesus Christ




Jesus Christ

Yeah, that isn't too obvious.

</sarcasm>

[w4lk4]

[QUOTE=Absolute_Zero;1167802]I thought Eulogy was about Bill Hicks [QUOTE]

I always thought the same thing, if you listen to his comedy, and if you know how he died... well he was a martyr for HIS (bill) cause

[benjiman]

Bill died from cancer as far as I know...that doesn't fit into my definition of a martyr.

For the most part I would say music is up to interpretation. However in the case of Eulogy, it is most definately not about either Jesus, Bill Hicks or Judith.

First off, Maynard respects Jesus. He may not agree with modern christianity but he's not foolish enough to attack a great human.

As for Bill Hicks and Judith. He states in the song he swallowed his "facade". Both of these people may not have been living the "correct way" you can argue that. I would bet however that they are true to themselves and there is no facade going on here. Hicks lived on the boundaries of society and had his own ideas. Judith wasn't a christian to fool others. Her son was Maynard, I would think if she was so easily controlled, a man such as him would have changed her mind.

Finally I come to the conclusion that Eulogy may have first been written to attack L. Ron Hubbard, but like it has been said before, it can be interpreted for a wide array of people.

P.S. "Don't you step out of line, don't you fucking lie." Sounds to me like Maynard is recollecting on his days in the military, maybe the whole song is an attack on military leaders claiming to die for their country, well fuck you asshole.

[skinny puppy rules]

Yeeeessss! Love it.

you people are so fucking stupid in your analyses of tools songs...eulogy is about jesus christ...it couldnt be more plain and simple...matter of fact i had a friend who is a theologian take a look at the lyrics and he considers them to be blasphemous and is a tool fan...tool songs are not that hard to figure out half of them are about anal sex and the other half about trying to repent that you had anal sex...and as far as bill hicks is concerned the band loved him and looked up to him as a mentor thats why he is given time on the cd and inner sleeve...i dont know why i am typing this shit i feel so dirty now having been on a fansite for ANY band...

[Spaceman Spiff]

"Eulogy" by far - "Wings" is pretty superfluous.

[Torn-tool]

Folks... just enjoy the music will ya?

[Yahwehaa Hannayaa]

It's safe to say The Noose was influenced by the death of his mother, perhaps he did not make ammends with the frustration that her faith caused him to feel. Smoke PCP all day/every day. GFY.

[U4ia]

I always thought Eulogy was about Kurt Cobain for some reason. Think I read it somewhere on some unofficial Tool site.

[eataduck]

i had something interesting to say but all the coffee has made me ill.

(worst 1st post ever!!!!!)

[bassmaster]

"Eulogy" by far - "Wings" is pretty superfluous.

Superfluous? I what way?
It's the first movement for 10,000 Days, or 10,000 Days is the second movement for Wings for Marie. How in any way is that superfluous?

[toolrox19]

LOUD NOISES...

... i believe that's what tool intends with most of thier songs. not what it means to them/him (mjk) but what they mean to you. i have my own thoughts on Eulogy like most ppl. as well as thier other tunes. some we all know what there about others we don't. that's why we're still discussing them. that's the fun and the old school mysteries that most bands now a days don't even come close to. putting the music first and letting it belong to you... the listener.

yeah i agree y do people try to figure out maynards meaning, sure there is a meaning for the song but its meaning is what ever the listener wants

[0ctopod]

I think it's interesting that Wings eulogizes someone. I think in that way the two tracks are associated. Eulogy seems to be more of the speaker taking issue with martyrs in general, while Wings deals with a specific martyr and the speaker's wish to critique and pay respect for her at the same time. Lyrics like "never told a lie/well, might have told a lie/but never lived one" seem to emphasize this.

For Eulogy to be specifically about Jesus is problematic because of the last few lyrics:

"To ascend you must die/you must be crucified/for our sins and our lies"

The speaker here seems to be explaining to the failed martyr (Hubbard or any number of candidates) what is required to be a Christlike martyr, and that because this person didn't do this they don't qualify and their martyrdom was in vain.

It's also problematic to imagine anyone's reading of the bible to include an interpretation of Jesus "ranting and pointing his finger at everything but his heart" or someone that was "so loud" and who "sure could yell". Perhaps an apt description of many of the ministers, preachers and prophets who have taken up Christianity, but Jesus isn't generally interpreted this way. It seems more a reference to any number of dictators such as Hitler.

I think Eulogy's non-distinct inferrence offers endless possibilities, which does open up the possibility of the song having something to do with Judith on an implicit level. She does stay strong in the faith despite her paralysis, after all. A faith which the speaker considers incomprehensible. They are the only two songs that come to mind that actually eulogize, and it's interesting to note the change in the approach between the songs. It mirrors the change in attitude between Third Eye and Rossetta Stoned (two other songs which seem connected for various reasons) from transcendence and self-discovery to utter sarcasm and cynicism.

[]v[edusa]

my view:

Eulogy: I think Tool is using a strong false martyr as an example of someone who has that martyr archetype. I think the songs message is not to one particular person but for any "martyr" like person that is listening. This person seems to have a scarred inner child possibly from being ashammed as a child. They will suffer greatly to make others happy because of their bad ashammed childhood memories. This person seems to be calling for attention. Death is referring to the death of the martyrs own suffering and of the false/fake ego. hes healing the scars of the inner child. Crucifying the ego and resurrecting as the true self/ divine child.

jimmy: I think its about his inner child which is scarred, wounded, and abandoned. His inner child is scarred by all sorts of childhood experiences and horrible memories. I say he was abandoned because his mother was no longer around to be there physically. "jimmy" is about healing the wounds of the inner child and by doing so he is finding his inner child.

Pardon my whole inner child theme with Aenima. Aenima is after all full of jokes and is just screaming, "find that inner child and have fun once again."

Wings for Marie/10000days: To me I think his mom is just a good example of someone who was pretty much pure and next to eliminating that false ego. He does say that she never lived a lie and she illuminated her little piece of the divine.

I found that a lot of these Tool messages apply to almost everybody and that these songs are more then about themselves or certain people.

[ASnakeForEveryEden]

me like this vary much. vary to much therry. i like, it intertane me alot. i thaink u vary much. agen, i thainks to u all. vary gud therries. opinyun funny.

[jevons]

goddammit, I'm tired of the Eulogy is about this person, or that person...

Word the fucking fuck up. It shouldn't matter who the subject is, it's the message.

[ASnakeForEveryEden]

it's a song, open to interpretation. the whole point is to apply it, not impose it.

[jevons]

word

[paraflux]

you people are so fucking stupid in your analyses of tools songs...eulogy is about jesus christ...it couldnt be more plain and simple...matter of fact i had a friend who is a theologian take a look at the lyrics and he considers them to be blasphemous and is a tool fan...tool songs are not that hard to figure out half of them are about anal sex and the other half about trying to repent that you had anal sex...and as far as bill hicks is concerned the band loved him and looked up to him as a mentor thats why he is given time on the cd and inner sleeve...i dont know why i am typing this shit i feel so dirty now having been on a fansite for ANY band...

bye dude

[iminsideurmind]

i just wanted to comment on Benjamin post that Maynard respects Jesus...I think in Sober he is directly talking junk to Jesus saying his mssg is old and tired out...that being said...if the noose is about Judith as well as Judith which is obvious it seems to me he takes a pretty aggressive stance towards his mother and her beliefs...and that seems to change in WFM/10000 days....and for me personally Eulogy is about my grandfather and i think of him when i hear it... however i still loved him very much ...no matter if he was a hypocrite or like the person described in eulogy

[0ctopod]

i just wanted to comment on Benjamin post that Maynard respects Jesus...I think in Sober he is directly talking junk to Jesus saying his mssg is old and tired out

Maynard isn't even talking to Jesus in Sober. When you look at where the comma is you realize that Keenan is simply swearing... which is why Kabir responds to this question the way he does in the FAQ.

Opiate is the same way. It isn't about Jesus Christ coming to save anyone. It's "Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now?" He could be talking to anybody.

[miketh74]

Thanks for taking that friggin idiot off paraflux!! I think some of the smartest people are on this website. I even envy half of them for having such in depth feelings for Tool and their music. It's a beautiful thing. I would have to say that I'm definitely more knowledgeable about the music instead of the lyrics. Just to sit back and get lost gives me my cleansing!!! NEVER DOWN A TOOL FAN!!!

[eyedriht]

you've got all wrong man
about maynard's mother:
Jimmy
Judith
Wings
I dunno if these songs are directly about his mother but if I'm feeling sad about the passing of my own mother I like to listen to The patient, disposition, Jambi, Right in two, 3 Libras, Sleeping beauty, Thinking of you, Weak & powerless, The noose, Gravity .... I'm sure I'm forgeting some of my favorites but thats a good start.

[guitarguru85]

I dunno if these songs are directly about his mother but if I'm feeling sad about the passing of my own mother I like to listen to The patient, disposition, Jambi, Right in two, 3 Libras, Sleeping beauty, Thinking of you, Weak & powerless, The noose, Gravity .... I'm sure I'm forgeting some of my favorites but thats a good start.

Amen to that. Everytime I listen to "Wings" or "10,000 days" I get taken back to my grandmother's funeral. Carrying her casket. Speaking at her funeral. She battled cancer for over fifteen years and was an extremely devout Catholic. It seems eerie to me sometimes how much these songs remind me of that time in my life. It might seem hokey to some people, but if you've lost someone close, these songs paint a great picture of the experience.

[eyedriht]

Amen to that. Everytime I listen to "Wings" or "10,000 days" I get taken back to my grandmother's funeral. Carrying her casket. Speaking at her funeral. She battled cancer for over fifteen years and was an extremely devout Catholic. It seems eerie to me sometimes how much these songs remind me of that time in my life. It might seem hokey to some people, but if you've lost someone close, these songs paint a great picture of the experience.

Yeah man, Wings 1 & 2 are pretty hard for me to listen to. As well as Parabol / Parabola (Wich I can't believe I forgot to put in my list BTW)

It's not really the whole song that chokes me up, but just little phrases and stuff...


"A light in your eyes then immobilized... Broken ... Broken. Fell at the hands of those movements that I wouldn't see Yet it was you who prayed for me. So what have I done To be a son to an angel? What have I done To be worthy?"


"But, enough about the collective Judas.
Who could deny you were the one who
Illuminated your little piece of the divine?

And this little light of mine, a gift you passed on to me;
I'm gonna let it shine to guide you safely on your way,
Your way home ...

Oh, what are they going to do when the lights go down
Without you to guide them all to Zion?
What are they going to do when the rivers overrun
Other than tremble incessantly?

High is the way, but all eyes are upon the ground.
You were the light and the way they'll only read about.
I only pray, Heaven knows when to lift you out.
Ten thousand days in the fire is long enough;
You're going home."

You see my mother was a faithful Christian and a brilliant school teacher who somehow contacted a very rare brain degenerative disease called Cruetzfeldt Jakobs Disease. It took her from perfectly normal to completely disabled in a little more than 2 months. The music of Tool & A Perfect Circle have helped me throughout the whole transition.. I loved their music before all of this happend but it took on a whole new life during and after.

[Carny_Handles]

I dunno if these songs are directly about his mother but if I'm feeling sad about the passing of my own mother I like to listen to The patient, disposition, Jambi, Right in two, 3 Libras, Sleeping beauty, Thinking of you, Weak & powerless, The noose, Gravity .... I'm sure I'm forgeting some of my favorites but thats a good start.

lol, do you know what 'thinking of you' is about?

[Tool_Is_Sick]

I take it by your post that its not about his mother? So is "thinking of you" a negative song? I dont really analyze APC's songs so Im wondering myself.

[Rolo]

I take it by your post that its not about his mother? So is "thinking of you" a negative song? I dont really analyze APC's songs so Im wondering myself.

LOL, it's about sex. And i don't think in a way of "mother" and "fucking" in one sentence.

BTW, if you think sex is a negative thing T_I_S, you may think of "Thinking of You" as a negative song.

[Carny_Handles]

I take it by your post that its not about his mother? So is "thinking of you" a negative song? I dont really analyze APC's songs so Im wondering myself.

no, its not a negative song. It is about masturbation.

[NMoB]

APC is pop rock.

[Esurient4Truth]

no, its not a negative song. It is about excessive masturbation.

fxd.

[Double_Helix]

you can't have a list of songs about his Mother without Orestes, which got a brief mention earlier, and maybe it's something everyone has been over already in another thread, or not, since it is APC and not strictly Tool, but it has a meaning just as deep as anything in the Tool catalog.
this was was one of my favorites after my family made the decision to cut life support on my mother...
I love the mythological reference to Orestes, since in the greek tragedy Orestes commited matricide. The name translates to "One Who conquers Mountains" from ancient greek, which is also interesting. I just think this song deserves its place on the list!