Novel idea on spectroscopic listening

[weesper]

Okay this is just an idea but it should keep a few of us out there occupied for a while.

This idea is by a friend of mine and it came up while we were discussing the new album.

A couple of years back Aphex Twin hid his own face in 'Windowlicker'; Maynard has often said that Aphex Twin and Squarepusher serve as a big inspiration to them, plus the glasses in the package maybe we're not supposed to look at the pictures but at the music....

Here's how Aphex Twin did it:

http://www.bastwood.com/aphex.php
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,52426,00.html


I havent tested this myself but I wouldnt be to supprised given the examples provided on the sites here if the band actually hid something this way (plus this is the first album after the windowlicker phenomenon came out)

Okay I urge/dare everyone with a serious interest in these hidden message theories to go ahead and try this. Happy hunting

[weesper]

ps this doesnt work w/mp3 cuz you compressed all the 'info' out of the music

[khemystri]

im on it.

[haloocyn]

now that is cool as fuck

[encrusted]

very cool indeed - love the idea that the glasses are a signpost to this....

[5th Eye]

That's cool.

[haloocyn]

any clue about the pc software?

[Propulcid]

Whoa, sweet find. Cheers

[fnshmetal]

I have lossless rips and knowledge of audio software ill give it a go and report back

[MisterMudd]

Man, that is one hell of a find.

Normally I am not one for trying to find cryptic and hidden messages... but this is too good to pass up.

(Could this bee the "distorted noise" some people are complaining about?)

[youareveryhit]

this sounds more plausible than a lot of the stuff I've read here. hopefully one of the "tdn wizzkids" (thanks McRoggles) will have something for us soon.

for whoever ends up trying this, screenshots would be SUPERB :)

[MisterMudd]

If you convert the mp3s back to wavs, do you get the added info back?

[the darknight]

im not quite sure i totaly understand this idea... but someone should do it to rosetta stoned.

[Nate-Dogg85]

cool idea, but thers nothing there =( You got me so excited, but sorry guys, this is just another 'idea'.

[Briznitch]

How about Viginiti Tres? This is all noise so maybe it has something in it? Just a thought. I'm gonna try this program on my mac, sounds fun.

[weesper]

Can only do these things with the original Wav file; you can't 'magically' get the info you just cut out back in there; need Mac software too. regards

[spawk]

there's another way to "hide" data in a sound file : you can store it in frequencies the human can't perceive. This perception limit can be seen on this pic : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FletcherMunson_ELC.png

this way it is possible to store the real data, without making it "hearable".
If this technique was used, only spectral analysis of the album should be done to find data in "useless because unhearable" frequencies.

[Muladhara]

This is interesting, using the Spectogram program and viewing Viginti Tres with a logaryhtmic scale, it appears that there are certain sounds which appear at 10,000 HZ which appear four times in the song, one at 2:30 for 6 seconds, one at 2:58 for 7 seconds, one at 3:08 for 2 seconds and the last one at around 3:25 for 1 second.

Also, each of the rises in sound looks a little like the tower in Maynard's picture.

Also, has anyone else noticed the noise at around 2:26? Sounds like a strange bubble popping noise.

[malictus]

This is a very interesting idea; I had forgotten about how Aphex Twin did this a while back. I'm going to try it out later tonight. I have a feeling that if something like this is in there, it'll be in those blips in the first 2 minutes of the song.

there's another way to "hide" data in a sound file : you can store it in frequencies the human can't perceive. This perception limit can be seen on this pic : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FletcherMunson_ELC.png

this way it is possible to store the real data, without making it "hearable".
If this technique was used, only spectral analysis of the album should be done to find data in "useless because unhearable" frequencies.
I like this idea, but I'm pretty sure that frequencies outside the normal hearing range can't be encoded correctly on standard 16-bit 44kHz CD's.

[5th Eye]

Yes they can. Human hearing goes on a range from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. CDs can have a frequency of up to, of course, 44,000 Hz. Of course, frequencies that high could damage your headphones or whatever, but the extra bits they can store helps for higher audio quality.

Oh and I like how that chart shows that humans can hear stuff at lower than 0 dB...

[malictus]

Yes they can. Human hearing goes on a range from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. CDs can have a frequency of up to, of course, 44,000 Hz. Of course, frequencies that high could damage your headphones or whatever, but the extra bits they can store helps for higher audio quality.
Wrong; the sampling rate must be TWICE the highest audible frequency, so the highest frequency that a CD could faithfully reproduce would be around 22000Hz, which plenty of humans CAN hear. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_rate for more info.


Oh and I like how that chart shows that humans can hear stuff at lower than 0 dB...
0 db is just the average threshold of hearing for an average person; it's entirely possible to have negative dB sounds. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel.

[5th Eye]

Oh yeah.


Wow, I just got owned, didn't I.

[PriceisRight]

Oh yeah.


Wow, I just got owned, didn't I.

*pats on back*

It's ok...it happens

[Matt8]

someone please do this, thats so fucking cool i didnt know you could do that. if there is nothing in the whole tool album i might be semi-disapointed.

[Krugerlive]

This is interesting, using the Spectogram program and viewing Viginti Tres with a logaryhtmic scale, it appears that there are certain sounds which appear at 10,000 HZ which appear four times in the song, one at 2:30 for 6 seconds, one at 2:58 for 7 seconds, one at 3:08 for 2 seconds and the last one at around 3:25 for 1 second.
noise.


haha, im not one of the conspiracy nuts, but to those who are, have fun with this. 1 and 7 seconds => 17 => april 17th | 2 seconds => 2 => May 2 | 6 seconds => 6 +> june 6th = 6/6/06 => new album for sure, tool totally planned it. Its fun to look into this shit, but does anyone actually believe they hide all this shit like this? i dont. although i really would love to see a new album, trust me.

[ktrip]

*sigh*

[æmoeba•°·.]

(../s\igh..)

[Dianoetic]

I've run viginti tres through it a few times with a few different settings and havn't found anything significant. One thing tho there are some interesting visual offsets when viewing the readings in stereo...

[kether4602]

I've run viginti tres through it a few times with a few different settings and havn't found anything significant. One thing tho there are some interesting visual offsets when viewing the readings in stereo...

try Rosetta Stoned....do you see anything at around the 200 second mark at the bottom?

[azatoth]

i'm sure there's nothing hidden in any of the tracks on 10kD. if you've heard the track that had the aphex face, then you would also know.

[5th Eye]

Why is that; what does it sound like?

[TiVa]

interesting, but indeed, someone had to try with rosetta stoned! or someone must say how the song of that other band sounded... cuz maybe it just is a TERRIBLE sound that anyone would recognize...

[azatoth]

basically the aphex track with the face is a bunch of squealing noise shifting in frequency as it draws the face...

[koobcam]

What programs do you need to get the visuals? itunes? :)

[TiVa]

What programs do you need to get the visuals? itunes? :)

Spectrogram

but i tried it, and found nothing on viginti tres, maybe other songs or other configuration, but i doubt it now i've tested it myself...

[Dianoetic]

I checked out intension as well, produced nothing. Also had a quick look over Rosetta Stoned, havn't found anything in that yet, but admitedly did a slack check.

[Agent_202]

very cool stuff.

amazing what they can do these days.....

[Muladhara]

I think I forgot to mention that the buzzing noise (the same noise in (-) Ions) makes a cool spiral pattern in the song.

[Symbia]

yeah i tried running ions and tres at the same time and that wooshing sound plays in sync on both tracks it's pretty interesting

maybe someone should do a spectrascopic scan on ions

[Lysanderdarkstar]

I think I forgot to mention that the buzzing noise (the same noise in (-) Ions) makes a cool spiral pattern in the song.
could you please post a copy of both spirals i have an idea that is kinda out there but i think this might be the key...

[TiVa]

i tried it myself with the wavs and i don't see a spiral in viginti tres... i don't know where he found that spiral man...

[kether4602]

For those that are interested, here are screenshots of Viginti Tres. I haven't really messed with the settings too much yet. Here you go, just to get an idea of what this song looks like....(i had to take 3 screenshots to get the whole song. each view is only 60 sec of the song.)

Viginti Tres1 (http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/Daath4602/Viginti.jpg)

Viginti Tres2 (http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/Daath4602/Viginti2.jpg)

Viginti Tres3 (http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/Daath4602/Viginti3.jpg)

[kether4602]

lol, that last post was my 111th post at 11:11! CRAZY!!!!

...ok, im done :)

[Lysanderdarkstar]

i don't know i got to thinking about something a friend of mine mentioned a long long time ago apparently (i can't verify this) lateralus had a sperate track listing ... somthing to with matching song titles with geometric shapes or something i honestly don't know i was going to compare the spirals in the song to the cd case and see what i get i dunno any one else know about the alternate track listing

[kether4602]

i don't know i got to thinking about something a friend of mine mentioned a long long time ago apparently (i can't verify this) lateralus had a sperate track listing ... somthing to with matching song titles with geometric shapes or something i honestly don't know i was going to compare the spirals in the song to the cd case and see what i get i dunno any one else know about the alternate track listing

I believe it was re-arranging the tracks to creat the fibonaci sequence (1,1,2,3,5,8,13) something with that. I'm not too sure. I forget.

[Lysanderdarkstar]

hmm thanks. :S

[TiVa]

lol well i don't call that spirals, good luck finding a patern with the cd case :p i think you can almost fit in every patern in there...

besides, the guys of the band themself said that that "alternate tracklist" was just too freaked out to be true, they really didn't meant it that way

[Muladhara]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/Muladhara/SpiralViginti.jpg

[eonblue462]

Hey, I ran - ions through my programme and I got some really cool stuff. There's a pic of the Old Aenima era tool eye, a few pics of poeple I think one is maynard in the undertow pic (with the mouth brace). I havn't the quality too great yet coz im in a rush to post this before someone else!!!! I have only 2 of the pics uploaded, I'll add more as I upload them. When I get the quality better I'll upload again
Also, my image programme diminishes the quality, It looks way better in spectrogram, try it for yourself

Heres the URL's:


The Aenima era tool eye flipped on it's side!!

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/eonblue462_photos/-ionseyezoomed.jpg

A person (band member?) on the right with a sickly grin and his hands folded in front of him!!!

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/eonblue462_photos/-ionsmanbydoorzoomed.jpg

[b]A face

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/eonblue462_photos/-ionsfacezoomed.jpg

PS. please leave comments and seriously the quality is deminished, it's very impressive in spectrogramme.

[Lysanderdarkstar]

i dunno man honestly the second one just looks like a blur to me but the first one almost looks like the eye

[eonblue462]

i dunno man honestly the second one just looks like a blur to me but the first one almost looks like the eye

I know the pic quality is shit, I'll try and get it better. Just try it yourself, I't's way clearer in the programme

[elevation]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/18/jesus_hawthorn/

[the darknight]

lol, that last post was my 111th post at 11:11! CRAZY!!!!

...ok, im done :)


hahah thats crazy!

[TiVa]

Hey, I ran - ions through my programme and I got some really cool stuff. There's a pic of the Old Aenima era tool eye, a few pics of poeple I think one is maynard in the undertow pic (with the mouth brace). I havn't the quality too great yet coz im in a rush to post this before someone else!!!! I have only 2 of the pics uploaded, I'll add more as I upload them. When I get the quality better I'll upload again
Also, my image programme diminishes the quality, It looks way better in spectrogram, try it for yourself

Heres the URL's:


The Aenima era tool eye flipped on it's side!!

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/eonblue462_photos/-ionseyezoomed.jpg

A person (band member?) on the right with a sickly grin and his hands folded in front of him!!!

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/eonblue462_photos/-ionsmanbydoorzoomed.jpg

[b]A face

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g252/eonblue462_photos/-ionsfacezoomed.jpg

PS. please leave comments and seriously the quality is deminished, it's very impressive in spectrogramme.


did you look throught the glasses too much that where with 10k days?

honnestly that's again just the same as with the smoke... did you saw how the other artist did it? why would tool did it that shitty way, i mean... i don't see shit

[eonblue462]

Well, I'm goin to mess with the settings and blow your minds coz the second I played it, they jumped out at me!!! anyway, I have exams startin tomorrow so It could be a while. Let the discussion continue without my images so, My images are falling on deaf ears....or I mean blind eyes!!!!!

[weesper]

Good work eonblue462 I like it when sometimes the alien ideas we conjure up work

[eonblue462]

Good work eonblue462 I like it when sometimes the alien ideas we conjure up work

Thanks man. It's nice to see someone has faith in me!! lol

PS. You're so lucky to live in Amsterdam if what I hear about it is true! Can I come over for a couple of weeks!! We'll get stoned off our brains and look at the spectroscopic images for all the tool albums together!!!!
We'd proberbly better get some hookers aswell!!! lol

[count niggula]

bark!
what are the programs you use to do this? link or something please. looks fun. plus, it will give me another excuse to listen to the whole album again... and again... then some more.

[kether4602]

spectrogram (http://www.visualizationsoftware.com/gram.html)

[Juzblome]

If you convert the mp3s back to wavs, do you get the added info back?


Absolutly NOT!

[Q'ayin]

I think we may have found goggles.

The word stereo might be important, could the imaging of the sound data require some way of manipulating the data from each of the L/R sound channels? When I get a chance the first thing I'm looking at is the Voice-box solo on Jambi.

[TiVa]

look at this: http://www.bastwood.com/projects/aphex_face/aphex_demon.png

please look at it again...

this is how APHEX did it, so WHY would tool do it that SUCKY AND DIFFICULT if it can be that clear? because they want to hide it even MORE?? like more hidden in some vizualisation of sound?????? come ooooooon... checked out jambi and there's nothing... really...

have a nice day

[kether4602]

look at this: http://www.bastwood.com/projects/aphex_face/aphex_demon.png

please look at it again...

this is how APHEX did it, so WHY would tool do it that SUCKY AND DIFFICULT if it can be that clear? because they want to hide it even MORE?? like more hidden in some vizualisation of sound?????? come ooooooon... checked out jambi and there's nothing... really...

have a nice day


perhaps this is the link you meant to use?

aphex face (http://www.bastwood.com/projects/aphex_face/aphex.png)

in any case, i think you're right.

[TiVa]

perhaps this is the link you meant to use?

aphex face (http://www.bastwood.com/projects/aphex_face/aphex.png)

in any case, i think you're right.
yeah that link too, but then that guy noticed the first face (my link) with just random settings, and scanning the song, your link he found when he messed up the settings, so even if people DON'T mess up the settings, they see it pretty clear... that was what i meant. but thanks for making it even more clear ;)

to all those believers... look at those 2 pix!

[Muladhara]

I think if they put anything in this song then it's those spirals I found. It fits in with what we know of Tool.

[Muladhara]

could you please post a copy of both spirals i have an idea that is kinda out there but i think this might be the key...

Hiya, I posted an example of one of the spirals from Viginti Tres up there, you have to tweak the settings in the program a little to see them, otherwise they're pretty blocky.

When I get home I'll have a look at (-) Ions (I haven't yet), assuming I can still use Spectogram...

[TiVa]

i still don't think that are spirals, those are just tones that go up and down... no spirals... those are 1/8th of a spiral so NO spiral

[Scobularni]

Did a spectogram on 10KD a while back after someone mentioned the Aphex Twin on an earlier post. Nothing to find really. If you do it with Viginti tres you can kinda see OOL but theres no T, so it must be just coincidence.

[PriceisRight]

Yeah...if it was there...we would see it by now.

[JOK3R]

pretty interesting

[Muladhara]

i still don't think that are spirals, those are just tones that go up and down... no spirals... those are 1/8th of a spiral so NO spiral


What?

Look at what it looks like, think about looking at a spiral from the side as it spirals up into the air, it would look exactly like that.

[TiVa]

it's just waves of music, it's not like it's intened to be... so those are not spirals, those are things you wish they were spirals... its just the music that fades in and out a bit and some noise at the background, no spirals in the way you mean it, ofcourse there are peaks and waves in the vizualisation of music, but no spirals like in "tool-spirals", it's not that you found anything that they "hide" in their music

wake up

[Lysander]

I think that if we're going to find anything in this we'll have to tweak the filters to isolate either specific frequencies or specific channels. Has anyone tried, for example, panningthe song to the left to see if there is hidden data that is actually so far left (or right) that it's off the regular soundscape? is that even possible to do? How about making a mono mix of both channels, and then looking at it through the included glasses? How aboutmixing it with -Ions and then looking at it? 9But if so, keep the bloody stereo channels intact, I'm sick of listening to Viginti Tres mixes that have one song on one side and the other song on the other side or, worse, both songs stuck in th emiddle. please, for the sake of my sanity, just mix the damn things without trying to be "clever".) I don't put much stock in teh spiral thing, I think that that theme is consigned to Lateralus only as it was pretty strong on that album and basically nonexistent everywhere else. Ya gotta think creatively and jsut try all sorts of strange things to see what you find, don't be lazy.

[wearethestories]

I think someone should look at the spectroscopic images with the stereoscopic lenses from the album packaging and tell us what they see.

I=lazy.




Oh, and has anyone thought how much all the thoughts off separating the channels to get an image from an audio track reminds them of Contact (film or book, Carl Sagan, etc)?

[Muladhara]

it's just waves of music, it's not like it's intened to be... so those are not spirals, those are things you wish they were spirals... its just the music that fades in and out a bit and some noise at the background, no spirals in the way you mean it, ofcourse there are peaks and waves in the vizualisation of music, but no spirals like in "tool-spirals", it's not that you found anything that they "hide" in their music

wake up


For fuck's sake they LOOK LIKE SPIRALS, I never said they definately hid anything in the song and, oh fuck it, I can't be arsed arguing this it's pointless.

I see spirals, you don't, who gives a shit?

[weesper]

Let me try and resuscitate this thread; what we have so far are spirals and eyes,.. right?

Well the print on the disc features exactly that: a (golden) spiral (a fibonacci sequence as the seed implant in a sunflower - isnt nature divine?) made up of eyes.

coincidence?

[TiVa]

ofcourse it's coincidence... there are no eyes and no spirals like tool eyes and tool spirals, people just start seeing things in those spectogram things, and what they is just a coincidence of the music waves... nothing more, nothing less

[jonboy]

very cool stuff.

amazing what they can do these days.....

who is they and how do I become one?

[Arson]

If you run mantra, does anyone else see something resembling a distorted vajra (sp.ck) around the 2000 frequency area? It just looks like a single vajra, not the double vajra that was used in the Lateralus artwork.

[Muladhara]

ofcourse it's coincidence... there are no eyes and no spirals like tool eyes and tool spirals, people just start seeing things in those spectogram things, and what they is just a coincidence of the music waves... nothing more, nothing less

Why are you bothering to post on this thread? You've made your mind up and unless you have word from Tool themselves I don't think you're in a position to say that they definitely did or did not mean for something to be seen in the soundwaves.

[Shaz]

*Punches himself in the face*

[swampyfool]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/18/jesus_hawthorn/
That wasn't necessary . . .

[swampyfool]

Well, I'm goin to mess with the settings and blow your minds coz the second I played it, they jumped out at me!!! anyway, I have exams startin tomorrow so It could be a while. Let the discussion continue without my images so, My images are falling on deaf ears....or I mean blind eyes!!!!!
Are your exams over yet? Three weeks (and change) and no higher quality image postings . . ? Come on, let's go! You were so eager to display those crap-quality images because you wanted to be the first to do so . . . what has happened to your motivation since then? Comen on! Be the first to show us the high-quality images . . .

Or do they not really exist . . .

[fivenichols]

Spectroscopic songs usually sound like electric or computer made noises. Blips, beeps, boops, ect. Matrix-like effects.

Viginti Tres would not work, niether would (-)ions or any other Tool song. It has to sound 'computery'.

[Décartes]

You don't need Spectrogram to see it - Adobe Audition can display spectrographic waveforms, the first button in the 3rd group of tools - to the right of that Q-> button - will display the entire wave as a spectrograph. Most songs create completely random patterns - it's a characteristic of sound. The images posted above by eonblue462 - sorry to target you :P - are most likely just cool patterns, completely random.

What, you don't all have Audition yet? *pfft* Call yourselves Tool fans...

PS - I'm Chris, by the way. Hi.

[M.Luther]

thats a good idea!

[marshall888]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/18/jesus_hawthorn/

Don't listen to SuccessfullyPriedOpen.
lol & kudos

You don't need Spectrogram to see it - Adobe Audition can display spectrographic waveforms, the first button in the 3rd group of tools - to the right of that Q-> button - will display the entire wave as a spectrograph. Most songs create completely random patterns - it's a characteristic of sound. The images posted above by eonblue462 - sorry to target you :P - are most likely just cool patterns, completely random.

What, you don't all have Audition yet? *pfft* Call yourselves Tool fans...

PS - I'm Chris, by the way. Hi.
Very nice entrance. Welcome to tdn.
I'm also Chris, by the way.

[11:11]

i wish it worked, but would tool do that if its already been done?

[theDEXorphan]

i wish it worked, but would tool do that if its already been done?

tool? do something somebody else has done?
isn't starting a rock band in the first place something that has been done a million times? or making music?

a recent example: the talk box

all artists learn, grow and continue their own work by mimicking and incorporating things that have been done before. the trick is to try and do it better and make it your own. that is what art basically is anyway.

[aClockworkOrange]

hmmm
pardon my ignorance or whatever. but if you reverse the song, you get the same spectroscopic image right? o_O

reading all of this reminded me of 'Mission to Mars'.
and that X-Files show where the kid copied the static from TV to come out with someones face.

[lsdexmt]

Someone should listen to that aphex twin song while they're tripping (Im sure many people already have) and see if the closed eyed visuals respond to the sounds and draw out the guys face.


That'd be a really crazy way to introduce a new medium to the listening experience. Psychedelic bands could release entire albums that give specific closed eye visuals and play a real video in your head.





...imagine how many people would start doing acid.

[aClockworkOrange]

hmmm im not a bright kid. but someone watch Mission To Mars. they had a dna sequence sent by the face thingy, but it was missing a pair of chromossomes. like lost keys. so the guy inserted the missing pair and they were right into the face. then he showed them something. then he flew right thru 3rd eye lol.