Maynard

[ThreeDeviations]

Song is about how Maynard perceives everyone... fans and society in general.. and he's losing patience.

Uses the alien abduction thing.. as a clever way of saying he's the "chosen one" to deliver messages to people...

He's saying... nothing changes in people regardless of what I say.. and it never will. It's a burden trying to help people see or understand... yet I still do it... and nothing ever changes. "Born to bear"... he feels some obligation...

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see." That's Maynard speaking to you. The real point to the song.

"But I forgot my pen" Maynard saying that's our pathetic reply/mentality to what he's offered.. (nothing soaks in with people... rolls off their back)

"Shit the bed again." = we continue to not get it... over and over- regardless how many times he says it.

then Maynard says "Typical...." rather sarcastically.

and we don't know... and won't know...
he's conceding to self that he'll never make a siginificant impact because people just don't get it.

[Cucumber_11]

Care to shed some light on why you feel this song means that to you?

[ThreeDeviations]

Care to shed some light on why you feel this song means that to you?


check again, I accidentally posted it the first time well before I intended.. had to edit it... should have a better feel for what I am saying now.

[EmbraceTdOxOmL]

i completely disagree. i believe it is a message for all of those people using pychoactive and disassociative drugs to reach some crazy places and open up their third eye, that they are all waisting their time because the affects of the Chemicals are clouding and distorting the experience. And there are much safer cleaner ways to get there. Please read the "Taking a step back" thread.

[vinegar_tom]

Song is about how Maynard perceives everyone... fans and society in general.. and he's losing patience.

Uses the alien abduction thing.. as a clever way of saying he's the "chosen one" to deliver messages to people...

He's saying... nothing changes in people regardless of what I say.. and it never will. It's a burden trying to help people see or understand... yet I still do it... and nothing ever changes. "Born to bear"... he feels some obligation...

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see." That's Maynard speaking to you. The real point to the song.

"But I forgot my pen" Maynard saying that's our pathetic reply/mentality to what he's offered.. (nothing soaks in with people... rolls off their back)

"Shit the bed again." = we continue to not get it... over and over- regardless how many times he says it.

then Maynard says "Typical...." rather sarcastically.

and we don't know... and won't know...
he's conceding to self that he'll never make a siginificant impact because people just don't get it.

I kind of agree. I think it works on that level. But, I kinda thought that he was directing it toward those people that just didn't get it, concerning drug use.

[pivotal digit]

I think both are right. All is right , and who cares what Maynard means ? It's about what "You" think

[ktrip]

at first listen, thats what i thought about the song.. i think i posted it here somewhere, but i cant find it.

besides. who says that in a song about the hilarious missuse of psychoactives, that he cant also mention our hilarious missuse of this [dare i say it?] tool that they have provided us all [snap].

then again... he's probably just found an intricate new metaphor for anal sex.

[ThreeDeviations]

i completely disagree. i believe it is a message for all of those people using pychoactive and disassociative drugs to reach some crazy places and open up their third eye, that they are all waisting their time because the affects of the Chemicals are clouding and distorting the experience. And there are much safer cleaner ways to get there. Please read the "Taking a step back" thread.


Maynard is going to sit down and write a song about some kid's less than perfect LSD trip?! Right....


fuck all you druggies



pivotal digit- " I think both are right. All is right , and who cares what Maynard means ? It's about what "You" think"

Fuck that. There's an intended meaning to the song. If you want to "personalize" the meaning to justify whatever issues you have... fine, go ahead.

That's not what I do. I try to determine what he actually intended when he sat down and wrote the song.


Who cares about what Maynard means? Ha. I love when people come on here with that type of bravado..

It's okay to admit you respect and admire the man.. and that you DO care about what he has to say.

[jim39n]

well, i wasn't going to respond to this one untill i read that

there is no way in hell that's what this song is about

for one thing, as others have mentioned, lost keys (blame hoffman) refers to dr. hoffman who first sythesized acid.

i don't believe maynard is egotistical enough to see himself as some misunderstood chosen one. this song is about a charecter who uses lsd then has an acid trip in which he is abducted, given a message, and forgets it due to the acid fucking with his memory. it's not just a song about "some kid's less then perfect acid trip" it's a cautionary tale. i don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile. that part is just my take on it, but i don't see any reasonable way to refute the charecter potrayed here as being on acid.

[ThreeDeviations]

well, i wasn't going to respond to this one untill i read that

there is no way in hell that's what this song is about

for one thing, as others have mentioned, lost keys (blame hoffman) refers to dr. hoffman who first sythesized acid.

i don't believe maynard is egotistical enough to see himself as some misunderstood chosen one. this song is about a charecter who uses lsd then has an acid trip in which he is abducted, given a message, and forgets it due to the acid fucking with his memory. it's not just a song about "some kid's less then perfect acid trip" it's a cautionary tale. i don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile. that part is just my take on it, but i don't see any reasonable way to refute the charecter potrayed here as being on acid.


Rosetta Stoned, Blame "Dr." Hoffman... it doesn't mean the actual meaning of the song is about drugs or LSD.

Stinkfist is not about sexual fisting.. but it's written through that metaphor.
4 degrees isn't about anal sex... but it's written through that perspective.
Prison Sex isn't about having sex in prison.

The song is written to shed some light on a few different things... area 51, alien abduction, its ramifications on people afterward.. side effects.. how others perceive people who say they've been abducted... etc.

Obviously there are drug references too... so when you say "I don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile" that sounds about right.

Just like the alien abduction though, it's NOT what the real meaning is about.

The climax of the song is when he sings..

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read you all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see"

It's no coincidence those are the words that are being sung during the climax.
All the other lyrics and references are entirely secondary to this part...
you can hear and feel it when you listen to the song..

This song's climax and actual message are very similar to Stinkfist... "something kinda sad about the way that things have come to be, desensitized to everything... what became of subtlety."

Both messages are clear and to the point.. no tricky wording.. no metaphors.. no bullshit.


Don't think the man is "egotistical enough?"

"I must crucify the ego..."
"silly monkeys"
"fuck you buddy, send more money."
"I should play GOD"
"feeding my narcissism"

The man has plenty of ego... and justifiably so. It's not farfetched at all to assume he's writing as if he's the "chosen one."

His ego, frustration and callused nature only strengthens when people continue to entirely miss the point in terms of what he's explaining or saying to people.

[Gnome_Chomsky]

I always thought that we the listeners were "the one" and that maybe Maynard/Tool are the aliens giving us the message. Maybe we've missed the point all these years and only seen the small details but forgotten about the big picture, the important message.

[thumphrey05]

it's not just a song about "some kid's less then perfect acid trip" it's a cautionary tale. i don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile.

i think you hit the nail on the head

[TheUglyEye]

When i hear this song is reminds me how diffrent it is from lipan conjuring. How since lsd was created we now have drug addicts screaming about aliens instead of sacrad relgious cermonys. I dont believe its saying drugs are bad in total, if it does its kind of contradicting

" Like phospherus dessert buttons singing one familiar song"
That song was very spirtual and there are drug refrences.

I believe the song is saying that lsd has changed the whole perspective on psychadelics, making them illieagal, and psychotic instead of spirtual.

[barometric_tool]

When i hear this song is reminds me how diffrent it is from lipan conjuring. How since lsd was created we now have drug addicts screaming about aliens instead of sacrad relgious cermonys. I dont believe its saying drugs are bad in total, if it does its kind of contradicting

" Like phospherus dessert buttons singing one familiar song"
That song was very spirtual and there are drug refrences.

I believe the song is saying that lsd has changed the whole perspective on psychadelics, making them illieagal, and psychotic instead of spirtual.

And let me guess....you're an avid LSD fan, and believe Timothy Leary is innocent.

[Darkness13]

Ya know, I think I'd hafta side with ThreeDeviations on this... I mean, we should all know better than to be debating this if you think about it... Maynard isn't known for writing lyrics that are just skin deep... He writes them like a sword where you have to dig the main meaning out of the body... If that metaphor even makes sense...

[IC]

To me it means, and it probebly isnt the initial meaning, but I get this very longing feeling of 'no one will ever believe you, you're always alone' kind of thing. That break out of ' Overwhelmed as one would be' is just simply euphoric. I love the song.

[ThreeDeviations]

To me it means, and it probebly isnt the initial meaning, but I get this very longing feeling of 'no one will ever believe you, you're always alone' kind of thing. That break out of ' Overwhelmed as one would be' is just simply euphoric. I love the song.

Yeah, it's "euphoric" because that's the climax of the song... that verse is what the song is actually about... when the real feeling and meaning erupt together.

and again, I have to bring in the Stinkfist comparison...

it's a perfect parallel to Rosetta Stoned in respect to how when they climax, the real message is divulged.

[JimmyJ]

I can't speak for everyone on this but I can speak for myself. I know Tool has changed my life in many ways ever since I first discovered them when AEnima came out when I was rather young. I've got my own interpretations of all their songs and I can say for certain that some of them have provided me with views on life that I still hold to this day. For example, to me Lateralus (the whole album not just the song), really motivated me to understand myself. Ever since that album I've found myself questioning my actions and beliefs and really trying to figure out who I am. Wether or not this is your interpretation or this is something Tool was looking for when they produced Lateralus, I'll never know. But the fact remains that I have heard what I think Tool was trying to say and I have listened, and it has had a measurable impact on my life. I imagine most other Tool fans could say that their life has also been impacted by Tool in some way.

Furthermore, and I just talked about this on the The Pot forum, I believe that there is no correct interpretation/meaning to any Tool song, becuase like any artform half the fun is in figuring out what it means TO YOU. Thus I can't really believe Maynard would write a song saying how frustrated he is with people not understanding what he's trying to say or not listening. But this gets into a whole confusing layer of hypocricy... lol. That's your interpretation and I'm not to say it's incorrect. I'm just saying that's not what this song means to me.

[Melanos]

i agree.... there is no ONE answer to any Tool song. Life is a circle/cycle. Why wouldn't Tool song be the same way? And i for one don't think that Maynard "thinks he is the one" because that would mean he hasn't let go of his ego.... and that was the basic core of the last album wasnt it?

[ThreeDeviations]

There is 1 answer.

There is 1 real meaning.

Deal with it.

If you want to interpret the words to suit your own feelings.. go ahead. But don't try to dole that nonsense.

Maynard doesn't sit down and write a bunch of arbitrary words and phrases down with the hope that it will reduce teenage goth suicide.

He writes Specific words and Phrases down to stop white faced girls in boots from jumping from the 11th floor.

There's 1 meaning to the songs.

One

[JimmyJ]

Oh Really? Adam Jones once said this:

"Most people think, 'What are you guys about? Explain yourselves,
your music, your videos,'" Jones says disgustedly. "why do we have to
explain everything? Entertainment can be like going in the woods.
You can see nature; you may understand the basics of it, but you can
still enjoy it, and it can affect you in many ways. That's how we
approach music."

I would use this as support that Tool does not belive that all of their songs have one single meaning, and none of their songs are open to individual interpretaion.

[thomas.freeman]

JEEZ! someone tell this english major to stop ANALysing these lyrics

as with all maynards vocals, it means what it means to the person listening, probably why he takes care in making most of his lyrics open to interpretation....i bet he loved it when mtv changed stinkfist to song one ... chumps !

and by the way

no one really cares what YOU think HE thinks
these pages are for what the songs mean to you ....

i personally love listening to this song for the feeling of disorientation it gives me ...
it makes me feel quite vunerable given the mish mash of lyrics, and it scares me that i only seem to notice the references to ET's .... but it is a fleeting feeling that is coupled with that warm tool feeling i always get!

thats what i think !

tule rule

[ThreeDeviations]

T.F = A. GAY


1 meaning, idiots.

[ThreeDeviations]

Jimmy J, that's a comical explanation as to why you think that Tool songs have no one meaning. But it did give me a good laugh. Try again.

Better yet, don't.

[Zygote]

Although I do agree that Maynard uses multiple meanings when he writes his lyrics I do think that ThreeDeviations is right on this one. Consider how in all of Maynard's recent interviews he speaks about how he has tried opening our third eye, spreading global consciousness and awareness and how no one is listening. He has stated that he is sick and tired of trying to relay these messages and so many of us not getting it. He has also been quoted as saying those who have heard the message are the ones that are meant to or something along the lines of those who are meant to know, already know. Being that this has been on his mind and something Maynard has been speaking about so frequently I think that is one of the main themes of Rosetta Stoned. I understand that there is the story line of the alien abduction and tripping out and all of that, however when the "overwhelmed as one would be" part begins I think that this is maynard speaking personally about how frustrating it must be to be looked up to as this chosen one with all the answers yet no one really gets it. And I think this frustration is why he has went with lyrics that are more personal and less metaphorical and complex as past records.

[Loveboat Captain]

He's not pretentious enough to think he is the chosen one.

[Zygote]

But he is aware that some of his fans look at him in this light... I didn't mean to imply that he thinks he is the chosen one. He would definitely reject that type of thinking.

[Loveboat Captain]

Oh i see. so he's mocking people who idolise him? that makes more sense.

[Zygote]

Exactly. he gets there hope up by saying he is going to foretell all the secrets of the world and it's end and so forth and right before spilling the beans "Well I forgot my pen..." basically a snyde way of saying i'm not gonna tell you. I'm tired of leading the horse to water. and then it goes back into the jokes and so forth like the shit the bed part. that's my take on the whole thing anyways...

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

Maynard actually said once that using psychadelics to open your third eye was fine, but the whole point was to do them once and see where it takes you, then to spend the next few years trying to get back there without them. (or words to that effect). So it would seem to me that the two main opinions being posted here have a basis to be the correct answer.

Why are you so botherd about being correct and telling everyone else that you are? My interpretation is my own, and i am happy in that, I get my own experience from it as everyone else does, and in the end thats all taht really matter. Fuck this right and wrong stuff and just feel it how you want to.

and if you come back with some "you're wrong, i'm right and here are my reasson eplained for the 3984579384798475th time" bullshit, i just don't care.

peace

[Zygote]

I would not tell someone else there opinion is wrong. I am just supporting ThreeDeviations take on it and sharing my own interpretations. That's all...

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

I would not tell someone else there opinion is wrong. I am just supporting ThreeDeviations take on it and sharing my own interpretations. That's all...


I didnt mean you, sorry i accidently clicked the reply with quote bit, sorry was aimning it at ThreeDeviations. Sorry again.

[Towelie]

Why are you so botherd about being correct and telling everyone else that you are? My interpretation is my own, and i am happy in that, I get my own experience from it as everyone else does, and in the end thats all taht really matter. Fuck this right and wrong stuff and just feel it how you want to.

and if you come back with some "you're wrong, i'm right and here are my reasson eplained for the 3984579384798475th time" bullshit, i just don't care.

peace

Well put. It's funny: a friend and I were talking about ego judgement. He was kidding around saying how when he starts getting those thoughts or messages of right/wrong, good/bad, he stated, "the submarine sirens start blaring in my head."

"We're sinking Captain! We've lost perspective and are going down!"

To say THIS or THAT is the unilateral answer for Rosetta Stoned (of all songs) is... kinda odd at this point. Oh well. To each his own.

On a side note, am I the only one here to wake up in the hospital with no idea what the fuck was going on? And, yes, I had shit myself. I have no idea to this day what that was all about. I was probably hit by a car (busted hip) but, I prefer the alien rape/abduction theory. It's always good for shits and giggles.

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

On a side note, am I the only one here to wake up in the hospital with no idea what the fuck was going on? And, yes, I had shit myself. I have no idea to this day what that was all about. I was probably hit by a car (busted hip) but, I prefer the alien rape/abduction theory. It's always good for shits and giggles.


haha, woah that dpesnt sound good! this isnt inteded to sound nasty or personal, but i hope it was the alien rape/abduction thing, cos that would just be cool! but also incredibly mentally scaring for yourself which i wouldnt wish upon you, uness of course you had harmed me in some respect in which case i might 'don an alien costume and rape/abduct you myself.




P.s, i dont actaully get down like that (te whole alen rape thing)

[undertoes]

yea, i and leadin towards 3deviation's meaning of this song. maynard does have an ego. Just look at his least interviews where he's still such a dick to the interviewers.

[undertoes]

i guess maynard is through we all that we are One Mind stuff eh

[Towelie]

haha, woah that dpesnt sound good! this isnt inteded to sound nasty or personal, but i hope it was the alien rape/abduction thing, cos that would just be cool! but also incredibly mentally scaring for yourself which i wouldnt wish upon you, uness of course you had harmed me in some respect in which case i might 'don an alien costume and rape/abduct you myself.

P.s, i dont actaully get down like that (te whole alen rape thing)

Haha! That's why I love this song. Who knows what the fuck happened. The same goes for my experience. I was on my go-ped last year near Thanksgiving. I was on a road that travels along a major street. But, the road itself is pretty quiet. The fire department found me unconscious on the side of the road. Nobody saw a thing. My memory was gone. It was most likely a hit and run.

The funny part is, the hospital released me with a busted thigh/hip. My friend came to pick me up. After carrying me up the stairs, we knew something was wrong. They released me with shit in my pants and I couldn't walk. My friend was screaming on the phone to the hospital and doctors. I was too concussed to worry about anything at the time.

He picked me up and brought me to the shower. Let me tell you, there's nothing more humbling that your friend cleaning shit off your ass.

Now, when we play Rosetta Stoned, he always points to me during "God damn...!"

I ended up back in the hospital a few hours later. I stayed a week. I'm all good now.

God Damn those Grey Alien Mongolians! I wish they would give back all the Tool CDs they steal. You know that's why they're here, right? To get their Tool fix, hehe. :D

[slamminsalmon]

Song is about how Maynard perceives everyone... fans and society in general.. and he's losing patience.


if you really think their songs have one meaning then you truely dont get it

[ThreeDeviations]

if you really think their songs have one meaning then you truely dont get it

Oh, I get it. I feel how Maynard feels in this song.

for any of you saying there isn't ONE meaing.... YOU are the one who "doesn't get it."

That said, if you want to personalize the song the wrong way... then go ahead if it makes you happy.

or like how Zygote say... "you can lead a horse to water..."

Zygote also said he read where Maynard said (paraphrased) that "he is sick and tired of trying to relay these messages and so many of us not getting it."

That's EXACTLY what the song is about... like I said, he sheds light on a couple other topics along the way to the real message.... kills a few birds with one stone.

Maynard isn't "through with the we're all one mind stuff.." but that's why he's frustrated. He's trying to help, yet people don't listen... and want to divide "right in two." People don't listen to what he's saying.

He's not claiming to be some literal god when he refers to himself as the "one."

He's merely saying he realizes that he has a huge influence on people "in my position" with Tool... and people admire and take to heart the things he says.

So what he's saying is that if you really admire me, listen to what I say, apply it and change your fuckin ways.



"Edward James Keenan" says....
"My interpretation is my own, and i am happy in that, I get my own experience from it as everyone else does, and in the end thats all taht really matter. Fuck this right and wrong stuff and just feel it how you want to."

if you interpret the song incorrectly and it still makes you happy... good for you. I don't give a shit. Ignorance is bliss.

Like the man is gonna sit down and write a bunch of words for a song and say to himself... " metaphors, check! Rare words, check! Puzzling phrases, check! Some sexual reference to keep all the idiots happy.. check! Yes... another perfect song without an actual meaning."

Tool wants you to make the songs your own if it makes you feel good... even if you're not even close to the actual meaning. They don't care. They're happy for you because you're happy. But don't be kid yourself into thinking there isn't one specific meaning to each song.

[BlanketEffect]

So does that mean that whoever writes something determines what it's about? And if they never tell anyone what it's about and 99% of the people think it's about something totally different, who's right?

From a quantum mechanics or buddhistic standpoint, there is no such thing as objective meaning. Meaning, experience, interpretation, they're all sole province to the observer. The observer determines, and thereby creates, the meaning and experience as it interacts with it.

So if whatever Maynard himself had in mind when he penned the lyrics is all you're interested in, I'm sorry you must live in such a bland world where you give up your right as the observer so someone else can spoonfeed you the meaning.

[BlanketEffect]

Not to sound silly about it... but take Puff the Magic Dragon, for example... does it really matter if the song was written to imply marijuana use? Millions of children sing the song, read the lyrics, and they think/know it's about a magical dragon and his little friend Jackie Paper. So who's got the right interpretation? Did you ever stop and think that perhaps someone on the lyrical level of Maynard could write multiple meanings into songs and purposely choose passages that have multiple meanings because maybe it's about a lot of different things to the writer himself?

Just because the artist thinks of their art as having a specific message/meaning doesn't mean that that is the ultimate meaning. We are all one. Everything is one. The fact is that a piece of art, be it a painting, a song, or a sculpture mean only what it means to the observer. There are an infinite number of interpretations to anything, which is why we are all one. Everything is just an interpretation of everything else. Thinking that there is only one meaning and everyone else's ideas are simply subjective mistakes and illusions - well... that's what starts things like holy wars, too.

When you give up the right to be the observer you give up the right to think for yourself.

And that, I believe, is exactly what Maynard would emphatically not want any of his listeners to do.

[ThreeDeviations]

so basically... nothing or something means anything and everything to everyone and nobody.

deep stuff

Puff the magic dragon song... which meaning is right? The drug meaning if that's what it was originally written about.

Just because people personalize a song to fit their own interests.. doesn't make it "right."

get all philosophical if you want... tell me there are no absolute truths... tell me I am not even really alive.. I mean, who can argue against ... nothing or something means anything and everything to everyone and nobody.

Maynard had 1 meaning in mind.

Like I said, if people want to misinterpret the song and be a pig in mud. Squeal away. It's fine with me.

Just don't come on an opinion page and rant around how I shouldn't express my opinion.

I bet I'm not really even on this opinion page...

>poof<

[PhiRatio]

So does that mean that whoever writes something determines what it's about? And if they never tell anyone what it's about and 99% of the people think it's about something totally different, who's right?

From a quantum mechanics or buddhistic standpoint, there is no such thing as objective meaning. Meaning, experience, interpretation, they're all sole province to the observer. The observer determines, and thereby creates, the meaning and experience as it interacts with it.

So if whatever Maynard himself had in mind when he penned the lyrics is all you're interested in, I'm sorry you must live in such a bland world where you give up your right as the observer so someone else can spoonfeed you the meaning.

From a quantum mechanics standpoint? Theoretical physics has nothing to do with this.

Existentialism, perhaps ...

There may be no objective meaning of the song to the INDIVIDUAL ... and yes, you could say that the meaning, interpretation and experience are all subjective to the individual.

But, I am interested in Maynard's meaning ... how could you not be? The song can hold your own personal meaning as well ... but how could you not be interested in the actual OBJECTIVE meaning of the song? Because, I promise there is one.

[Apollo's third eye]

Dude I don't want to sounds like a dick but your not really embracing other's opinions either and you act like your word is fact and that you know what you say is absolutely truth and everyone else is an idiot. Ultimately yeah when Maynard wrote the song he had one thing in mind, will we ever know what it is? No thats just plain and simple the band has never explained any of their music. So think about it if they aren't going to tell us the one true meaning of their music then its open to multiple interpretations all of which may be right.

[ThreeDeviations]

Dude I don't want to sounds like a dick but your not really embracing other's opinions either and you act like your word is fact and that you know what you say is absolutely truth and everyone else is an idiot. Ultimately yeah when Maynard wrote the song he had one thing in mind, will we ever know what it is? No thats just plain and simple the band has never explained any of their music. So think about it if they aren't going to tell us the one true meaning of their music then its open to multiple interpretations all of which may be right.


go re-read PhiRatio's post again slowly....

[LUCID DESIGN]

This thread is fantastic.

ThreeDeviations is a smart guy. But you see, the reason he is a smart guy, is because he's taken the smart approach to being smart. The problem is with most listeners that they think the meaning is so buried within the depth of layers because of the heavy use of metaphor, when a lot of times his lyrics are blatant and painfully obvious.

I am a lyricist and vocalist. I like to think I write from a similar viewpoint. Write within ONE intended personal meaning, but leave it vague enough through metaphor and subject matter than can be easily related to, so that your own intended ONE true meaning can stay secret. Therefore you have given yourself as a lyricist and writer that emotional release, while still maintaining some discretion.

There is ONE true intended meaning, but he wants you to interpret it as you see fit. It's Maynard's way of weeding out the dumbshits from the evolved and observant. Also, he wants you to listen to the MUSIC. Think about that.

I say Bravo ThreeDeviations, you're getting the point.

[Apollo's third eye]

Ok see though I am saying that there is a meaning and only Maynard knows it, you act like you know the meaning and everyone else is wrong. Then again not everything has a meaning all of those years of people saying things about The Beatles' music it turns out alot of it was more simple than we thought.
So is there one meaning or any meaning at all? Nobody can say except Maynard and I personally believe the song means something to Maynard but we will never know and maybe aside from the crazy consipracy Tool fans he might appreciate that his fans get their own message out of his words and it enhances their lives in a way that what it meant to Maynard probably couldn't.

[PhiRatio]

i completely disagree. i believe it is a message for all of those people using pychoactive and disassociative drugs to reach some crazy places and open up their third eye, that they are all waisting their time because the affects of the Chemicals are clouding and distorting the experience. And there are much safer cleaner ways to get there. Please read the "Taking a step back" thread.


So ... if the song is about the use of psychedelics, what exactly is the message? That it's a waste of time to use psychedelics? I think not. There are obvious drug references, but just because the title has the word "stoned" in it shouldn't imply that the song is about a bad trip.

Rosetta Stone, the key to hieroglyphics ... so, why change it to stoned? Because the the song is about the burden that goes along with bearing such a message ... something as difficult and cryptic as hieroglyphics to most people.

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see."

He's overwhelmed that he holds this key and he's burdened with trying to deliver the message while we all sit around as if we are too stoned to understand it ... He has they key, but we refuse to use it ...

I agree with ThreeDeviations, I think he has offered a good interpretation of the song ... To the rest of you ... you talk like he is basically 'stoned' when it comes to his own little 'subjective' meaning. How hypocritical.

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

Oh, I get it. I feel how Maynard feels in this song.

for any of you saying there isn't ONE meaing.... YOU are the one who "doesn't get it."

That said, if you want to personalize the song the wrong way... then go ahead if it makes you happy.

or like how Zygote say... "you can lead a horse to water..."

Zygote also said he read where Maynard said (paraphrased) that "he is sick and tired of trying to relay these messages and so many of us not getting it."

That's EXACTLY what the song is about... like I said, he sheds light on a couple other topics along the way to the real message.... kills a few birds with one stone.

Maynard isn't "through with the we're all one mind stuff.." but that's why he's frustrated. He's trying to help, yet people don't listen... and want to divide "right in two." People don't listen to what he's saying.

He's not claiming to be some literal god when he refers to himself as the "one."

He's merely saying he realizes that he has a huge influence on people "in my position" with Tool... and people admire and take to heart the things he says.

So what he's saying is that if you really admire me, listen to what I say, apply it and change your fuckin ways.



"Edward James Keenan" says....
"My interpretation is my own, and i am happy in that, I get my own experience from it as everyone else does, and in the end thats all taht really matter. Fuck this right and wrong stuff and just feel it how you want to."

if you interpret the song incorrectly and it still makes you happy... good for you. I don't give a shit. Ignorance is bliss.

Like the man is gonna sit down and write a bunch of words for a song and say to himself... " metaphors, check! Rare words, check! Puzzling phrases, check! Some sexual reference to keep all the idiots happy.. check! Yes... another perfect song without an actual meaning."

Tool wants you to make the songs your own if it makes you feel good... even if you're not even close to the actual meaning. They don't care. They're happy for you because you're happy. But don't be kid yourself into thinking there isn't one specific meaning to each song.


Ok, i was expecting you to give me some shit actaully, but you're kinda agreeing with me. Anyway, i never said you were right or wrong, i just don't like your attitude. This is after all an OPINION forum and nobody can be totally right or wrong.
The Reason maynard doesnt put lyrics up until about a month after the release of an album is so that people FEEL the music rather than read the lyrics and THINK about the music and meanings. we're supposed to feel things and get an experience from it.




SO, in MY OPINION, the song is not about maynard at all, but he is indeed trying to convey a message (and i think i am with you on this one), the same kind of message that we can get from "vicarious".
This guy took acid and saw some amazing things that opened up his eyes, and he was given an importatn message to deliever, but he forgot it, he didnt pay attention to the important things, instead he remembers all the inconsequential stuff (eating a box of krispy kremes, pissing his pants, orange slice and fetal spooning). Basically I THINK maynard is saying that people arent getting the whole message fromhis sings or from society and especially not from the TV, because we're not looking at the big picture, we're not seeing whats actaully going on. Maynard is not "the ONE" refered to in this song, you, I and everyone is "the ONE".

[BlanketEffect]

But, I am interested in Maynard's meaning ... how could you not be? The song can hold your own personal meaning as well ... but how could you not be interested in the actual OBJECTIVE meaning of the song? Because, I promise there is one.

Yes, I as well am interested into what Maynard thinks about the song. Just as much as I'm interested in what everyone else thinks about it. My point was simply that just because Maynard writes a song to mean something... if no one else ever 'gets it' then sorry... other than to Maynard, it doesn't mean that. You talk about personalizing a song's meaning. Well what do you think Maynard does? Do you think because he wrote it its meaning is less 'personalized' than mine or yours?

'Actual OBJECTIVE meaning'? - So Maynard is above the subjective experience? You think that because he writes something that makes him objective? Perhaps you don't know what subjective/objective means... Uncertainty Principle at it's finest.

Tool's music is a tool. Just like had I designed the wheel ages ago to actually be a table and someone came along and looked at that tool and decided it would work better as a wheel. Well, it's still my creation... there was still a 'meaning' behind what I created but if someone comes up and creates a new meaning for it then that person's assigned meaning is just as valid as mine. Me being the creator doesn't give me some divine right to determine meaning.

Even if Maynard has one meaning in mind it doesn't matter. He reaches out into the cosmos of the mind and pulls together words and phrases out of the infinite and shapes them into something. That particular something means something to him. Maybe something specific, maybe a couple things - either way, he may have sculpted the creation, but his subjective interpretation of what it means is no more valid than yours or mine.

Don't deify Maynard by saying whatever message he had in mind is what the message of the song is. It's just the message as Maynard sees it. If you want to have a like-mind with Maynard, well, I s'pose there are far worse people you could seek to think like.

And the 'quantum mechanics' line was totally relevant. Maybe you should look more into quantum mechanics and what it actually is before you just catagorize it as 'theoretical physics' - which is like saying 'a nuclear reaction is hot' - no shit... it's also a bit more than that.

Finally - let's play the monkeys on the typewriter game. Let's say a pack of monkeys sit around for a few million years and eventually randomly key out an epic poem. Now that poem is read by many and it has an interpretation from each. Whose is right? Now that there is no 'creator' of the art does that mean it lacks 'true meaning'? And if it does, that means that Maynard's created meaning is as irrelavant as the monkeys'. All that matters is what every individual gets out of it. OR, let's say that without a creator art DOES have 'true meaning' - who determines that?

Maynard is just a tool of the universe like you and I. And we're all the same tool. We're nothing but an expression of reality. Existentialism has nothing to do with it. We *are* the universe. So when one of us comes up with an idea... In simplist terms it's just the universe manifesting an idea through one of the infinite tools at its disposal. The universe creates/hosts life - life is made of the same fundemental building blocks as all other matter in the universe. We're just matter with free will. None of our subjective experiences are 'THE REAL MEANING" to anything because you *are* Maynard. We are one.

[undertoes]

after careful consideration i think EdwardJamesKeenan has hit the ball on the head

[LetGoLetgoLetGo]

Ok. Just a start here..............The "ego" being referred to in Reflection...I BELIEVE IS THIS:

Main Entry: ego
Pronunciation: 'E-(")gO also 'eg-(")O
Function: noun
2 : the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality

AND NOT THIS:

n : an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others [syn: egotism, self-importance]

In regards to the second entry, yes, MJK has come off as a bit narcissistic. BUT, the first entry makes much more sense. Im not going to go overboard explaining this because this is Reflection and we are in the Rosetta Stoned section. Just think about "crucify the ego"....

Now, about Rosetta Stoned. I take this song (so far in my experience with the disc) for face value....for the most part. Its a story of a man's struggle with an experience (overwhelmed). And this man is left unsure of anything described throughout the song. Apply that while listening and you have my method of thought as this song is playing.

BUT, to sit here and demand that this song is about ONE thing in particular and that you will figure out what this one thing is....that is just assinine. There are 50 other songs (approx) written by this band that none of us KNOW exactly "what he was thinking about" while writing the lyrics. Sure, I have some pretty decent ideas about what the general theme could be through each song, but who am I to say what is right or wrong, and then put any one of you down for making a "wrong" interpretation.

In reference to the "ego" thing, the ego is what causes you to make these judgements on each song. The way that every day before today has shaped your mind will have an effect on how you decide to decipher anything, not just 4 guys' music.

There is a lot of general ignorance going on in this thread. SOrry to be the one to point it out.

[undertoes]

i was just remembering when so they played this song in NYC. When he was singing " ET revealed to me his singular purpose.
He said, "You are the Chosen One,
the One who will deliver the message." he pointed to the crowd. anyone else remember this?

[LetGoLetgoLetGo]

i was just remembering when so they played this song in NYC. When he was singing " ET revealed to me his singular purpose.
He said, "You are the Chosen One,
the One who will deliver the message." he pointed to the crowd. anyone else remember this?

MJK COULD be the ET and we are the Chosen Ones?

Plausible.

[BlanketEffect]

I give that interpretation a nod. Tool... Maynard... have a message in general with all their music. I think they're trying to help steer humanity in the right direction by causing thought and ponderance.

That they are the one's with the 'wisdom' (or ET in this case) and we are the ones standing in awe of them and we know this is some momentous wisdom being laid out before us... but then talk about it as we may, we're still here bickering over who's right and who's wrong. We listen to the message all the time... but we continuously seem to forget our pens.

[Towelie]

Ya know, there's nothing like a person with altered ego diahrea to turn a thread into some good fun.

And, furthermore, so is Rosetta Stoned. I think it's by far the funniest songs on the album. The Pot makes me smile too but, I sincerely crack up at Rosetta Stoned. That's just me though. If you like to take this song seriously, great. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

[satire mode=on]

The ultimate truth is: this song is really about me. Yep, truth. I nailed it. Sorry.

I had this crazy Towel experience. And, I was given the meaning to it all. The aliens picked me because, after all, I'm a genetically produced Smart Towel with the extra processor and RAM chip embedded in my fibers. Yep, sorry to inform you but I was told I am The One.

I'm the Neo Towel.

Unfortunately, I forgot to write whatever they wanted to convey down on paper. And, oops, I've got shit all over me. Sorry about that. My bad. Next question?

[satire mode=off]

:)

[ThreeDeviations]

Ok. Just a start here..............The "ego" being referred to in Reflection...I BELIEVE IS THIS:

Main Entry: ego
Pronunciation: 'E-(")gO also 'eg-(")O
Function: noun
2 : the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality

AND NOT THIS:

n : an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others [syn: egotism, self-importance]

In regards to the second entry, yes, MJK has come off as a bit narcissistic. BUT, the first entry makes much more sense. Im not going to go overboard explaining this because this is Reflection and we are in the Rosetta Stoned section. Just think about "crucify the ego"....

Now, about Rosetta Stoned. I take this song (so far in my experience with the disc) for face value....for the most part. Its a story of a man's struggle with an experience (overwhelmed). And this man is left unsure of anything described throughout the song. Apply that while listening and you have my method of thought as this song is playing.

BUT, to sit here and demand that this song is about ONE thing in particular and that you will figure out what this one thing is....that is just assinine. There are 50 other songs (approx) written by this band that none of us KNOW exactly "what he was thinking about" while writing the lyrics. Sure, I have some pretty decent ideas about what the general theme could be through each song, but who am I to say what is right or wrong, and then put any one of you down for making a "wrong" interpretation.

In reference to the "ego" thing, the ego is what causes you to make these judgements on each song. The way that every day before today has shaped your mind will have an effect on how you decide to decipher anything, not just 4 guys' music.

There is a lot of general ignorance going on in this thread. SOrry to be the one to point it out.


You didn't point anything out... you repeated the same garbage a few others have already said. You have added to the "ignorance" if anything.

and your "ego" definitions... maybe you don't recall what he says directly after "I must crucify the ego.." he says, "BEFORE IT'S FAR TOO LATE." Now YOU ask yourself which definition makes more sense.

By the way, is this an Opinion page?
Do I need to qualify every fucking post I make by saying, "I am not Maynard.. but"

No, and I won't.

It's my opinion. Do I feel my interpretations are what he intended (the REAL message) when he wrote it? You're god damn right. Will I write and support my opinions with conviction and passion. Yes.

You don't agree with my perspective. Fine. Be wrong.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.

Like I said before, if you're wrong about the intended message, but you're happy and you love the song. Fine. Good. Be wrong. Be happy. Go on down the sidewalk whistling, hands in pocket, kicking the stones along the way. I'm happy for you. Just stay on that side of the road.

When stereotypes become reality, they're no longer stereotypes.

When an opinion...

[ThreeDeviations]

This thread is fantastic.

ThreeDeviations is a smart guy. But you see, the reason he is a smart guy, is because he's taken the smart approach to being smart. The problem is with most listeners that they think the meaning is so buried within the depth of layers because of the heavy use of metaphor, when a lot of times his lyrics are blatant and painfully obvious.

I am a lyricist and vocalist. I like to think I write from a similar viewpoint. Write within ONE intended personal meaning, but leave it vague enough through metaphor and subject matter than can be easily related to, so that your own intended ONE true meaning can stay secret. Therefore you have given yourself as a lyricist and writer that emotional release, while still maintaining some discretion.

There is ONE true intended meaning, but he wants you to interpret it as you see fit. It's Maynard's way of weeding out the dumbshits from the evolved and observant. Also, he wants you to listen to the MUSIC. Think about that.

I say Bravo ThreeDeviations, you're getting the point.


It can't be explained more clearly and accurately than how he explained.

No wonder he goes by LUCID Design.

[undertoes]

seriously, i think 3deviations thinks he is "the One" with his elistist opinion.

[ThreeDeviations]

seriously, i think 3deviations thinks he is "the One" with his elistist opinion.


You're not allowed to say something like that, remember?

It's taboo... you think this is an opinion page or something?

[ThreeDeviations]

So it's okay for you to speculate about who I am, what I'm about, or what I'm thinking...

but

I'm not allowed to make any assumptions or give any opinions about Maynard, what he's about or what he's thinking...

okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.

[ThreeDeviations]

seriously, i think 3deviations thinks he is "the One" with his elistist opinion.


I can't say what I want to, even if I'm not serious.

Things like....
"Fuck yourself,
kill yourself,
you piece of shit."

People tell me what to say,
what to think ,
and what to play.

I say...

"Go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.
Why don't you go kill yourself?"

Just kidding.

[undertoes]

This tread has really gone down the shitter. 3deviations you really need to get off maynard's dick like he's the second coming of Jesus.
Do you think his message and beliefs, are something new? no, they're not. A whole lot of people feel the same way and hold the same beliefs. Lots of listeners, or atleast those that really listen, know what his message is. Whether we decide to act upon these beliefs is a different story. But thats not what you're saying. You're saying that maynard saying some shit that's going over our heads which it's not. You saying that we "dont get it" is total crap.Most of us are aware

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

oh i just thort. "Shit the Bed" is another way of saying "jumped the gun" in UK, possibly elsewhere too

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

[QUOTE=ThreeDeviations]
You don't agree with my perspective. Fine. Be wrong.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.
QUOTE]


see its stuff like that that annoys people, right or wrong you're just being an ass. I actaully think that you've got some of your stuff mixed up and my opinion is subtley different to yours, but I THINK that I am right and I THINK that YOU are wrong (but only subtley).

[ThreeDeviations]

This tread has really gone down the shitter. 3deviations you really need to get off maynard's dick like he's the second coming of Jesus.
Do you think his message and beliefs, are something new? no, they're not. A whole lot of people feel the same way and hold the same beliefs. Lots of listeners, or atleast those that really listen, know what his message is. Whether we decide to act upon these beliefs is a different story. But thats not what you're saying. You're saying that maynard saying some shit that's going over our heads which it's not. You saying that we "dont get it" is total crap.Most of us are aware


It has gone down the shitter because morons like you keep coming back and posting.. and I keep having to tell you that you're still a moron.

"Get off Maynard's dick like he's the 2nd coming?" I'm not even sure there was an original cuming, you fuckin retard.

"You saying that we "dont get it." That is correct.
"Most of us are aware." That is incorrect.

.

[EternalSiGN]

well 3Dev sence u said it yourself that this is an opinion page.. then my opinion is that no one is wrong.. the fact that u are so extreme about u being right is YOUR ego... the fact that you bash everyone elses opinion leads me 2 believe that you are not solid about your ideas and believes... if goin with our thoughts then i could say that i know your wrong that the bible is right... saying it like it is a fact.. u are acting as if u have talked 2 maynard himself about this song and that it is a fact that this song is about one thing... but its not.. noone knows what this song is about other than maynard and the rest of the band if they even know... and if u have hung out and talked 2 maynard himself about this song than please tell me where when and how u did this...

i'll finish this like alot of the others at this site have by saying that i personaly dont know what this song is about but im sure it is deep and has some meanings wether it is about one thing or multi things... but im an artist myself and in alot of my creations they have multi meanings like my tattoo has like 4 diff meanings in it.. some ppl wouldn't understand and some ppl would. so i vote that you take this song the way you want it and you believe it if you believe the way 3Dev feels than thats your thing...

[researchtriangle]

this song is about the 'whole chosen people thing'. period.

[undertoes]

It has gone down the shitter because morons like you keep coming back and posting.. and I keep having to tell you that you're still a moron.

"Get off Maynard's dick like he's the 2nd coming?" I'm not even sure there was an original cuming, you fuckin retard.

"You saying that we "dont get it." That is correct.
"Most of us are aware." That is incorrect.

.


its funny how you said alot there but absolutely nothing with substance.

[BlanketEffect]

Well, according to 3Dev, the creator determines the ultimate meaning. According to the Church of Virus (which you may or may not be familiar with) "things mean what they cause" - so if Maynard writes something and it causes him to feel a certain way, that's what it means. If I in turn feel something totally different... if it causes me to feel a certain way, then it also means that just as much as what it meant to Maynard.

I think you'd be better off just saying "I think this is what it meant to Maynard," and that you're trying to think the way Maynard does and not, "I know what the song is about," because the song is about many things. If Maynard came out and said "all of you are wrong, it's about windsurfing off the coast of Spain," what would you think then? Maybe you had some deep super-meaning that you were sure was what Maynard was saying and now he went and dashed your ideas against the rocks. Is it suddenly no longer about what you thought it was about? Is it now only about windsurfing in Spain because the creator said so? You're a puppet.

[ThreeDeviations]

I think you'd be better off just saying "I think this is what it meant to Maynard,"


That's what I've done the whole damn time...


pay attention, and worry less about your stupid philosophical theories.

your theories were originally thought up by some human 200 years ago.. and since been passed down and skewed even more along the way.

so don't presume your philosophical nonsese has merit.. especially not on this thread.

my opinion is my own...

I'm not plagiarizing some dead man's thought from 200 years ago...

My opinion is more credible by default than your regurgitated rhetoric about absolutely nothing.

[BlanketEffect]

If you're referring to Nietzsche that's not what I'm talking about at all. And if that's what you think then you either don't know anything about Nietzsche or you know nothing about Buddhism (or both).

"I'm not plagiarizing some dead man's thought from 200 years ago... " - No, you aren't. You're just obsessed with some living man's interpretation of a song. In essence, you seek to find Maynard's thoughts so you can make them your own interpretation. But you're never going to succeed with that. What happens if Maynard changes his mind about what he gets out of the song and now he thinks it's about something else. Which one will you idolize as the 'true' meaning then?

The whole point was that everything is subjective, even to the creator. So if all your trying to do is figure out what Maynard meant, then say so. But don't tout Maynard's meaing as though it's somehow more 'the meaning' than what anyone else gets out of it.

[ThreeDeviations]

"You're just obsessed with some living man's interpretation of a song."

He wrote the song. It's not his "interpretation" of it.


You:
"That 70 mph speed limit sign, sir.. it's actually subjective. It really reads 80 MPH because that's how my mind perceives those numbers. Let me tell you what my professor at the community college told me in my philosophy class.... " I -

Cop:
"Son, shut your mouth and slow the fuck down. Here's your ticket. You say another word and I'm going to be forced to give you a sobriety test and get the dogs out here."

[BlanketEffect]

Yeah... okay... it's still subjective. The cop's subjective reaction is to drag your ass to jail for DUI.

And you didn't answer me. If Maynard changed his mind about what the song was about, would the meaning of the song change to you? Or is the song still really about what it was about when he wrote it? What if when he wrote it it meant one thing, and then after he recorded it he got a different meaning out of it... Which one is right?

And ultimately, if you want to deify the creator and assume you've figured out the only *real* meaning... eh... sure, why not... worked for the church. Agree to disagree with you.

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

\nice one blank effect, i agree with you, and this thread has got a little off point, i dont think anyone has really offered their thorts about what teh song is about for a good few posts.

[ThreeDeviations]

Yeah... okay... it's still subjective. The cop's subjective reaction is to drag your ass to jail for DUI.

And you didn't answer me. If Maynard changed his mind about what the song was about, would the meaning of the song change to you? Or is the song still really about what it was about when he wrote it? What if when he wrote it it meant one thing, and then after he recorded it he got a different meaning out of it... Which one is right?

And ultimately, if you want to deify the creator and assume you've figured out the only *real* meaning... eh... sure, why not... worked for the church. Agree to disagree with you.

Fine, we'll agree to disagree.

and fyi, Maynard wouldn't "change his mind what it's about"... so your hypotheticals need to stay in la la land.

I appreciate certain aspects of philosophy and even some of the things you've said... but your "principles" (or whatever you refer to them as) really don't translate or belong on this thread.

Tool is philosophical, but not even close to the extreme scenarios you're talking about...

so frankly and respectfully, your time would be better spent on a different thread or different area entirely.

[BlanketEffect]

To me, the song is from two viewpoints. One is the viewpoint of the tripper. The verses and setup sections before the instrumental are about the LSD trip and the actual observations/experiences therein.

The second meaning/part comes at the climax where now Maynard takes on the role of the teacher and not the tripper and is telling us how much he's been trying to teach us and despite all his efforts we still just sit around without our pens. As in, we like the idea of the song Third Eye so we justifiably seek spirituality through drugs but then we don't realize that they're just a catalyst, not the way.

And he's telling us in the climax that if we rely solely on drugs to bring us enlightenment that we're not really going to be enlightened. Sorry, enlightenment can't be found in a pill. We'll only be there until the drug wears off and then oops, I forgot my pen, can't remember what it was all about... guess I have to do it again.

[orangedarkblue]

MJK COULD be the ET and we are the Chosen Ones?

Plausible.

Hi there.

I sort of see Lost Keys/ Rosetta Stoned as a universal tale, a lot of MJK's lyrics on this album seem to be just that. It sort of communicates on a pop level what happens to all of us when we meet god/E.T./etc.

Visions of the divine, in my experience, are much like soap bubbles. The closer to bursting you come, i.e. the closer to death, the more colourful the graphics get, and the less of it you can comunicate back to your peers.

The highest revelation of spiritual truth revealed in the human body may actually be sexual fluids, urine and feces. shit the bed. think about it.

[BlanketEffect]

The highest revelation of spiritual truth revealed in the human body may actually be sexual fluids, urine and feces. shit the bed. think about it.

Thought about it... doesn't work for me. Kudos on a truly original (if somewhat disturbing) idea, though.

[orangedarkblue]

Thought about it... doesn't work for me. Kudos on a truly original (if somewhat disturbing) idea, though.

thanks.

well, for me it goes sthng like this - the most disgusting stuffs on earth are apparently human excreta and human remains. If you follow the Nung river up into Col. Kurtz madness, that is more or less the place you end up in.

Most people shy away from the dark side of revelation, for a good reason. God or Satan is in the dose. I agree that there are safer ways to seek light than LSD. The socket remains the same, lamp or nail is up to you. http://xrl.us/rubyvroom

[orangedarkblue]

to futher illutrate the above: words by St. Layne

Bury me softly in this womb
I give this part of me for you
Sand rains down and here I sit
Holding rare flowers
In a tomb...in bloom

Down in a hole and I dont know if I can be saved
See my heart I decorate it like a grave
You dont understand who they
Thought I was supposed to be
Look at me now a man
Who wont let himself be

Down in a hole and theyve put all
The stones in their place
Ive eaten the sun so my tongue
Has been burned of the taste
I have been guilty
Of kicking myself in the teeth
I will speak no more
Of my feelings beneath

Bury me softly in this womb
Oh I want to be inside of you
I give this part of me for you
Oh I want to be inside of you
Sand rains down and here I sit
Holding rare flowers (oh I want to be inside of you)
In a tomb...in bloom
Oh I want to be inside...

Down in a hole, feelin so small
Down in a hole, losin my soul
Down in a hole, feelin so small
Down in a hole, outta control
Id like to fly but my
Wings have been so denied

[Lou_Cypher]

Fine, we'll agree to disagree.

and fyi, Maynard wouldn't "change his mind what it's about"... so your hypotheticals need to stay in la la land.

I appreciate certain aspects of philosophy and even some of the things you've said... but your "principles" (or whatever you refer to them as) really don't translate or belong on this thread.

Tool is philosophical, but not even close to the extreme scenarios you're talking about...

so frankly and respectfully, your time would be better spent on a different thread or different area entirely.

well, after slogging my way through this lenghty debate i just have a few observations. has anyone read that little quote at the beginning of the opinions section? where maynard is saying in a perfect world people will hear the album and be inspired to to do something extraordinary, how he reads the interprets on this page and theyre all wrong, how he wont spoonfeed the meaning and rob people of thier experience?

well sitting on your pc, trying to figure out exactly what it is maynard is singing about isnt being inspired or doing anything extraordinary, is it? thats just searching for the "real" meaning so you can say i have the "real" meaning, i know for certain maynard wrote this song about windsurfing or whatever because i know tool better. well, that doesnt really hold much meaning to you does it? does being able to sit back and say rosetta stoned is about how upset maynard is with people missing his message that important? and do we really think hes going to take a jab at fans like that, that we're all missing the point and its making him frusterated? gimme a fucking break do you think he actually cares, (he just wants another wing on his winery and has a damn fine job at providing for it), and doesnt sitting around on opinion boards arguing about it exactly prove his (your) point, that people need to be spoonfed? tool puts out music that they hope people will enjoy, that we'll put on a record and Think and maybe be inspired to go fingerpaint or write a poem or take karate or whatever. THATS IT.

oh, and saying maynard wouldnt change his mind as to what its about..............well, i seem to recall that live pushit recording on salival:

we 've been looking at one of our songs in a new light.......

[burning bridges]

My interpretation is the same as the original posters, although for awhile I thought it was Maynard ripping apart the people who have based a religion around TOOL.......still possibly might be.

[The Dharma Bum]

T.F = A. GAY


1 meaning, idiots.
Yes all tool songs have one meaning, and I know what it is because Maynard uses drugs to slip into the astral plane to steal my thoughts, and sell them to all you lesser beings. I am the chosen one, if you come to a conclusion that differs from mine then you are obviously idiots, and should shut the fuck up and bow to my superior intellect. I shit and gods are formed, I piss and apocolypse riegns. I AM THE ONE, THE CHOSEN ONE SENT TO RELIEVE YOU OF THE BURDON OF THINKING FOR YOUR SELF. you believe me don't you? Please believe what I just said.

[Apollo's third eye]

well, after slogging my way through this lenghty debate i just have a few observations. has anyone read that little quote at the beginning of the opinions section? where maynard is saying in a perfect world people will hear the album and be inspired to to do something extraordinary, how he reads the interprets on this page and theyre all wrong, how he wont spoonfeed the meaning and rob people of thier experience?

well sitting on your pc, trying to figure out exactly what it is maynard is singing about isnt being inspired or doing anything extraordinary, is it? thats just searching for the "real" meaning so you can say i have the "real" meaning, i know for certain maynard wrote this song about windsurfing or whatever because i know tool better. well, that doesnt really hold much meaning to you does it? does being able to sit back and say rosetta stoned is about how upset maynard is with people missing his message that important? and do we really think hes going to take a jab at fans like that, that we're all missing the point and its making him frusterated? gimme a fucking break do you think he actually cares, (he just wants another wing on his winery and has a damn fine job at providing for it), and doesnt sitting around on opinion boards arguing about it exactly prove his (your) point, that people need to be spoonfed? tool puts out music that they hope people will enjoy, that we'll put on a record and Think and maybe be inspired to go fingerpaint or write a poem or take karate or whatever. THATS IT.

oh, and saying maynard wouldnt change his mind as to what its about..............well, i seem to recall that live pushit recording on salival:

we 've been looking at one of our songs in a new light.......

I'm gonna go ahead and thank you for making that post, and to say I agree.

[ThreeDeviations]

oh, and saying maynard wouldnt change his mind as to what its about..............well, i seem to recall that live pushit recording on salival:

we 've been looking at one of our songs in a new light.......


Pushit's live version on Salival... you know what that is?

It's doing your girlfriend doggie style for the first time. Same girl, means the same... just feels a little different.


That's all. Goodbye.

[ThreeDeviations]

Yes all tool songs have one meaning. lesser beings should shut the fuck up and bow to my superior intellect. .

sounds about right...

well, ya don't have to bow, I'd settle for just listening and learning something.

but if you have the attention span of a Jack Russell Terrier, like most people on here do... then yes, bow.


I just wish most of the people on here were as smart as a Jack Russell Terrier.

[BlanketEffect]

to futher illutrate the above: words by St. Layne


Funny that you mention that on a thread about Maynard. My new daughter's name is Maya Layne, after both of the aforementioned singers. Kudos again.

[The Merovingian]

"Shit the bed again." = we continue to not get it... over and over- regardless how many times he says it.

Nope, it's because he's strapped to his bed in a mental hospital.

[Zulkis]

Pushit's live version on Salival... you know what that is?

It's doing your girlfriend doggie style for the first time. Same girl, means the same... just feels a little different.


That's all. Goodbye.


LOL!!

I couldn't have said it better myself...same girl...ehheh
right you are, but it still feels very nice :)

hehe


and btw i agree that mjk had only one thought (meaning) to each song he wrote,
remember that he is expresing HIMSELF, and that he is healing from HIS music, it means only ONE thing to him...

sorry for "bad english" it's not my primary language...thnx

[ThreeDeviations]

LOL!!

I couldn't have said it better myself...same girl...ehheh
right you are, but it still feels very nice :)

hehe


and btw i agree that mjk had only one thought (meaning) to each song he wrote,
remember that he is expresing HIMSELF, and that he is healing from HIS music, it means only ONE thing to him...

sorry for "bad english" it's not my primary language...thnx


you're a smart guy..

Apparently we need more Croatian TDN members.

[ThreeDeviations]

LOL!!

I couldn't have said it better myself...same girl...ehheh
right you are, but it still feels very nice :)

hehe


and btw i agree that mjk had only one thought (meaning) to each song he wrote,
remember that he is expresing HIMSELF, and that he is healing from HIS music, it means only ONE thing to him...

sorry for "bad english" it's not my primary language...thnx


Hvala. Drago mi je. Kako se zovesx?

...Bog vidimo se, prijatelj


there's some bad Croatian that I stole online....

No need to apologize for your English... It looks good. It appears to be better than the majority of the people who live in the United States.

Typical..

[Zulkis]

Hvala. Drago mi je. Kako se zovesx?

...Bog vidimo se, prijatelj

hehehe

nice!

I had good teachers hehehe...

You would be amazed how many people (US) try to put you down because of your (lack off)knowlegde in english...so i must defend myself :))

I presume that tool and people like you are quite a light in the dark...america blinds your eyes everywhere you look, it's all happening here too...

[Towelie]

No need to apologize for your English... It looks good. It appears to be better than the majority of the people who live in the United States.

Typical..

http://www.unihole.com/images/uratowel-blk.gif

[locoloon]

Tom Cruise and his "somniferious almond eyes" leader, "Dont even know what that means". My interpretation of this song seems to be about E.T. talking to Tommy or Ron L. and telling them about being quiet in the birthroom or on a rock.

[Towelie]

Tom Cruise and his "somniferious almond eyes" leader, "Dont even know what that means". My interpretation of this song seems to be about E.T. talking to Tommy or Ron L. and telling them about being quiet in the birthroom or on a rock.

Yeah, that's a possible conclusion. People are saying the song is partly about Blair from toolband.com. And, I can see it. If I can get back those periods of my life where I actually took the time to read what he has to say, I would. I seem to remember Blair even stating on the news section that only Maynard knows what this song is about. He said the rest of the band doesn't know (I bet they do). He added that he doesn't wear Birkenstocks. So, it sounds like he did wonder if he was being made fun of.

I would not be surprised if it takes a dig out of him and others who torture the rest of us with nonsense thanks to Dr. Hoffman. The song is hilarious either way. The music is awesome.

[orangedarkblue]

Funny that you mention that on a thread about Maynard. My new daughter's name is Maya Layne, after both of the aforementioned singers. Kudos again.

Hey, kudos to you too, and your mate, on the production of new life!

The world is full of faces and snowflakes, but there is only one that looks like her.

[ThreeDeviations]

Listen to The Grudge at 7:36 to 7:58.

Listen to Rosetta Stoned at 7:42 to roughly 8:37...

same snapping sound... slightly faster in Rosetta, but same sound.

both leading up to the message and climax of each song..

The Grudge, to "Let go."

Rosetta Stoned,
"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read you all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see."

[BlanketEffect]

I kinda had an idea about something, not the meaning of the song, but maybe the title...

Could it be that since the Rosetta Stone was a teaching tool that taught us to translate ancient symbols... could it be that he's saying he was stoned, as in, when people pelt you to death with rocks... he was stoned by "Rosetta Stones" meaning he was bludgeoned with invaluable teaching tools to the point of breaking. - and that the 'stoned' term has nothing to do with the acid, or drugs of any sort.. it's just a convenient double-meaning.

[orangedarkblue]

I kinda had an idea about something, not the meaning of the song, but maybe the title...

Could it be that since the Rosetta Stone was a teaching tool that taught us to translate ancient symbols... could it be that he's saying he was stoned, as in, when people pelt you to death with rocks... he was stoned by "Rosetta Stones" meaning he was bludgeoned with invaluable teaching tools to the point of breaking. - and that the 'stoned' term has nothing to do with the acid, or drugs of any sort.. it's just a convenient double-meaning.


Hey, kudos again. Yesterday I sent a mail with titel 'Rosetta steniging' (Dutch for stoned, your way) to a friend, in which I argue the exact same thing - total revelation overload. As in:

Acts 7: 57-60 (hey, matt. 4:6!!) - The council members shouted and covered their ears. At once they all attacked Stephen and dragged him out of the city. Then they started throwing stones at him... As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out... “Lord, don't blame them for what they have done.” Then he died.

now if these council members are E.T.'s, one can imagine they might at some point get sick and tired of LSD tourists blundering into their realm.

"Everyone gets everything he wants, I wanted a mission, and for my sins they gave me one..."

[Staticfactory]

Song is about how Maynard perceives everyone... fans and society in general.. and he's losing patience.

Uses the alien abduction thing.. as a clever way of saying he's the "chosen one" to deliver messages to people...

He's saying... nothing changes in people regardless of what I say.. and it never will. It's a burden trying to help people see or understand... yet I still do it... and nothing ever changes. "Born to bear"... he feels some obligation...

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see." That's Maynard speaking to you. The real point to the song.

"But I forgot my pen" Maynard saying that's our pathetic reply/mentality to what he's offered.. (nothing soaks in with people... rolls off their back)

"Shit the bed again." = we continue to not get it... over and over- regardless how many times he says it.

then Maynard says "Typical...." rather sarcastically.

and we don't know... and won't know...
he's conceding to self that he'll never make a siginificant impact because people just don't get it.

I would have to disagree with this idea, although it was well delivered.

The reason: Maynard has said on many occasions that he's simply writing what the music makes him feel. These aren't HIS songs or HIS messages to communicate to anyone... he's simply bleeding out some words that the music makes him feel.

I really can't see how that could equate to him thinking that he has some sort of divine knowledge. He's not naive. He's against the same shit any person with common sense is against and he's got his own belief systems. It would be rather bold of him to figure himself for a prophet, and I think he would probably scoff at the suggestion.

We all wonder why, as brothers and sisters (mankind), we kill each other and fight and wander through this 'holy gift' with such negativity and distain. Just because Maynard is writing lyrics around this idea, and presenting his thoughts on the ideal, doesn't make him 'the chosen one'. It simply makes him another artist with a point of view.

I think we should all forget about trying to derive meaning from the words and start feeling it through the music.

[Towelie]

he was stoned by "Rosetta Stones" meaning he was bludgeoned with invaluable teaching tools to the point of breaking. - and that the 'stoned' term has nothing to do with the acid, or drugs of any sort.. it's just a convenient double-meaning.

That's a great interpretation. And, I enjoyed orangedarkblue's addition as well. My opinion is that the song is heavily satirical. And, it's meant for those of us who have been "victims" of somebody else's insanity. Don't get me wrong, I would have compassion for somebody "stoning" me because of their *oblivious* need to do so. But, jesus tittie fucking christ, life is hard enough without having to discern somebody else's mental disease in order to get through to Truth.

I think we should all forget about trying to derive meaning from the words and start feeling it through the music.

Although I agree with you, it's all good. Art is a gift. Whatever people want to do is fine with me. Personally, I like to sit back and enjoy it. You sound like somebody I could hang with.

[orangedarkblue]

I think we should all forget about trying to derive meaning from the words and start feeling it through the music.

I guess you're right in a way, everyone is entitled to throw in their own 2 cents. But certain places in the clear water will show larger concentrations of dimes, and that amounts to something, I guess.

Everyone feels the words differently, that is true, but wouldn't complying to your vision mean he end of these opinion fora at large?

[orangedarkblue]

That's a great interpretation. And, I enjoyed orangedarkblue's addition as well. My opinion is that the song is heavily satirical. And, it's meant for those of us who have been "victims" of somebody else's insanity. Don't get me wrong, I would have compassion for somebody "stoning" me because of their *oblivious* need to do so. But, jesus tittie fucking christ, life is hard enough without having to discern somebody else's mental disease in order to get through to Truth.
.

Nice. :) I would say - the larger the Truth, the larger the possible case of mental disturbance. Take Shabbetai Tzvi for instance. This guy stirred up big hopes in the Jewish community in diaspora of finally returning to Zion, at around 1700 a.d. Shabbetai went to Israël in 1662 and was declared by many to be the Messiah, based upon his teachings.
The man created a sensation throughout the Jewish world, that, ever since Jesus of Nazareth, was not very inclined to believe in Messiahs. He must have been pretty convincing, I think.
In 1662 Tsvi visited the Sultan of Turkey, and tried to convince the monarch to grant a Jewish state to him, the Messiah. Sadly, the Sultan wasn't in and gave him the choice of conversion to Islam or death. Following this Shabbetai went into a deep depression and converted to Islam in 1666. Almost no Jew today knows his name or this story. Covered in a blanket of shame. We say today he probably was bipolar. Now compare his failure to launch to other guys who did pull it off. Think of temporal lobe epilepsy. Truely truely I say unto thee, they were probably all crazy.

[tony.stacks]

pivotal digit- " I think both are right. All is right , and who cares what Maynard means ? It's about what "You" think"

Fuck that. There's an intended meaning to the song. If you want to "personalize" the meaning to justify whatever issues you have... fine, go ahead.

That's not what I do. I try to determine what he actually intended when he sat down and wrote the song.

How's that workin' out for ya? It might be easier if you had some type of direct telepathic link to Maynard's brain.

Of course there is one "true" meaning of the song, but most likely, only four people know what it is and we will never know so what's the point of speculating anyways?

Art does not come with an instruction manual.

If Tool wanted us to know what this song was about, why it was written and who it's about, they would have told us. They didn't, so we must fend for ourselves and derive our own meaning.

This is the very nature of art. Sure, some things are more obvious than others and it's easier to get a sense of what the artists intentions were, but this is hardly the case with Tool's music.

[Staticfactory]

I guess you're right in a way, everyone is entitled to throw in their own 2 cents. But certain places in the clear water will show larger concentrations of dimes, and that amounts to something, I guess.

Everyone feels the words differently, that is true, but wouldn't complying to your vision mean he end of these opinion fora at large?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking in that last sentense. Clarify?

When I say "Feel it through the music", I don't mean to exclude the lyrics - they are just as big a part as any other element, but to focus on them completely is to miss the forest for the trees.

-1 to me for being so cliche.

[Towelie]

Truely truely I say unto thee, they were probably all crazy.

I agree. For me, truth comes from within first. Thank you for posting that history. I will follow it up when I have time because it sounds interesting. It's really nice of you to share your thoughts on here.

Everyone feels the words differently, that is true, but wouldn't complying to your vision mean he end of these opinion fora at large?

Staticfactory: I'm sure he can clarify it for himself but, I will venture to say that he's talking about the "It" who started this thread. And, if so, he's right. Unfortunately or not, every one is allowed to be an idiot and make mistakes. It's how we learn. Hell, that's why I was born. :)

+1000 for you on the importance of perspective.

[ThreeDeviations]

Towel Boy: Maybe I shoud be condescending and then just put a smilie face at the end of the thought because then I'm not a jerk or hypocrite.
Why you were born and maybe why you were released with a broken hip. :)

or maybe it wasn't a mistake.

(being released early that is) :)


Satisfactory, I believe Lateralus was written that way... with the music first, and the lyrics second- with him writing about what he felt from the music. Even so, you still have to take that explanation with a grain of salt. I am not sure if 10,000 Days was done the same way.

He has his own "belief systems" as you say... he's also said, or endorses.. "believe in nothing"... which also has to be taken with a grain of salt.

and I did draw my conclusion through "feeling the music."

you don't draw conclusions to a song's meaning based off words alone.

Overwhelmed as ONE (him) may be
placed in my position (figurehead of Tool)
such a heavy burden now to be the One...
Born to bear (feels some sort of obligation/destiny) and read to all the details of our ending.... to write it down (lyrically) for all the world to see.

But I forgot my pen.... ( his sarcasm and explanation to why people don't change or remember )

Shit the bed again... ( people screw up over and over... and it's the same mistake(s).. we don't learn.. we just keep repeating them)

"Typical.." more sarcasm and frustration.

It's human nature that disgusts him. Habits, mentality, hobbies..

He's not saying he's literally divine, or some "prophet"... he does write about practical, common sense shit...
but he knows people perceive him as larger than life - as if he is a god. - you're right, he's not naive.

[the darknight]

then again... he's probably just found an intricate new metaphor for anal sex.

Hahahaha

amen

[Hindu]

Rosetta Stoned, Blame "Dr." Hoffman... it doesn't mean the actual meaning of the song is about drugs or LSD.

Stinkfist is not about sexual fisting.. but it's written through that metaphor.
4 degrees isn't about anal sex... but it's written through that perspective.
Prison Sex isn't about having sex in prison.

The song is written to shed some light on a few different things... area 51, alien abduction, its ramifications on people afterward.. side effects.. how others perceive people who say they've been abducted... etc.

Obviously there are drug references too... so when you say "I don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile" that sounds about right.

Just like the alien abduction though, it's NOT what the real meaning is about.

The climax of the song is when he sings..

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read you all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see"

It's no coincidence those are the words that are being sung during the climax.
All the other lyrics and references are entirely secondary to this part...
you can hear and feel it when you listen to the song..

This song's climax and actual message are very similar to Stinkfist... "something kinda sad about the way that things have come to be, desensitized to everything... what became of subtlety."

Both messages are clear and to the point.. no tricky wording.. no metaphors.. no bullshit.


Don't think the man is "egotistical enough?"

"I must crucify the ego..."
"silly monkeys"
"fuck you buddy, send more money."
"I should play GOD"
"feeding my narcissism"

The man has plenty of ego... and justifiably so. It's not farfetched at all to assume he's writing as if he's the "chosen one."

His ego, frustration and callused nature only strengthens when people continue to entirely miss the point in terms of what he's explaining or saying to people.


i agree with this post... !! the climax is so overwhelming and different from the rest of the song... it stands alone and means what it says

[cloudnebula]

I think dr.hoffman as a reference is really a screen for us all to believe that the alien abduction trip is acid induced, when in fact the hypithetical experience described could possibly be a reference to a single DMT experience in a clinical (controlled) setting. (REFERENCE; DMT the spirit molecule- a doctor's revolutionary research into the biology of Near-Death and Mythilogical Experiences, Rick Stassman, M.D.)

ps- I am so glad that this forum exists.

[tbrent21]

If Tool wanted us to know what this song was about, why it was written and who it's about, they would have told us. They didn't, so we must fend for ourselves and derive our own meaning.

This is the very nature of art.


Good point; moreover, taking an idea and then making it more vague and harder to pin down is also the nature of art as good business. They don't want to date the material so that it won't sell in the future, particularly when they are delivering messages with seemingly political overtones. (Not so much this song, but certainly The Pot and Right in Two from this album.)

[Apollo's third eye]

You know it'd be great if years from now we learned the song was either straight foward or had no meaing just like the case typically is with highly debated pieces or art. The beatles' lyrics never what people though, Robert Frost's The Path not taken (Probably got the title wrong.) ended up having no real meaning other than it was what it was. *shrug* just speculating, I don't think this thread serves anymore purpose because nobody is going to change their mind about wether or not we should take the song for its personal meaning or wether we should try to find some impossible way to figure out what Maynard himself meant.

[ThreeDeviations]

i agree with this post... !! the climax is so overwhelming and different from the rest of the song... it stands alone and means what it says


.... exactly ....

[koobcam]

Pushit's live version on Salival... you know what that is?

It's doing your girlfriend doggie style for the first time. Same girl, means the same... just feels a little different.


That's all. Goodbye.


Yes, Doggy is amazing. It's better when you aren't moving that much and she is fucking herself on your dick though. That would be the ultimate song... same girl, totally different feeling and meaning.

[PhiRatio]

I miss Kang

[bellamadia]

Maynard is going to sit down and write a song about some kid's less than perfect LSD trip?! Right....


This isn't a dig at you at all, but at the 10,000 days listening party at CosM Alex told us what Adam and Maynard told him this song was about. It is about their friend that tripped out and these were the things he was saying while he was tripping. Someone wrote a lot of it down. When their friend awoke he didn't remember saying any of these things. But he did literally shit in his "bed" (sleeping bag).

BUT you should take what you want out of it, that's what this shit is all about.

[champion]

I definitely see this song as Maynard's personal outlook on his position and his audience. Basically, he's heralded as some kind of savior, even though people always seem to confuse or misinterpret what he says, or not listen to him at all.

Rosetta Stoned refers to the fact that people take information and make it their own, and frequently become misguided; therefore, we all speak in some coded language to each other. Kind of like that scene in Waking Life that refers to people in communication. One of us says "love" and both people seem to know what the other person means, when they really don't.

This song is about the failure of human communication. It's like we're on drugs or something. We fail to interpret meaning.

[ThreeDeviations]

I definitely see this song as Maynard's personal outlook on his position and his audience. Basically, he's heralded as some kind of savior, even though people always seem to confuse or misinterpret what he says, or not listen to him at all.

Rosetta Stoned refers to the fact that people take information and make it their own, and frequently become misguided; therefore, we all speak in some coded language to each other. Kind of like that scene in Waking Life that refers to people in communication. One of us says "love" and both people seem to know what the other person means, when they really don't.

This song is about the failure of human communication. It's like we're on drugs or something. We fail to interpret meaning.

Agreed....


bellamadia- What you say might be true. There probably are real quotes from what the guy said. If you read the thread from the beginning, you'd see that I don't totally discount the drug aspect. Obviously there are many references. BUT THAT'S NOT what the song MEANS. It MIGHT BE ABOUT a bad trip and alien abduction for most the song. But that's not what the song MEANS.

The climax, as someone said earlier.... "stands alone" in the song.

Champion said it well in the previous post, too.

But take what you want out of it... that's what this shit is all about.

[bellamadia]

bellamadia- What you say might be true. There probably are real quotes from what the guy said. If you read the thread from the beginning, you'd see that I don't totally discount the drug aspect. Obviously there are many references. BUT THAT'S NOT what the song is about. Just like it's NOT ABOUT ALIEN ABDUCTION... even though he talks about that too.

Gottcha on the first part... but to be fair on your last sentence, none of us have the right to say definitively what it is or isn't about with conviction.... myself, you or anyone else.

[ThreeDeviations]

This is an opinion forum. I'm merely stating my opinion with conviction. That's allowed.

and yes, I am a bit self-righteous... I feel with good reason.. but I never forget it's an OPINION forum... you guys shouldn't either.

[BlanketEffect]

Maybe I guess my question is this, then, ThreeDev - Why do you think your researched interpretation of the song is likely Maynard's? I mean, many of us put a lot of thought and effort into getting the meaning out of it and many of the interpretations aren't that much of a stretch... any of them might be what Maynard meant when he wrote it.

I think that's why it's not so important to try to figure out the message of the creator because since you'll never know for sure you're still in the same boat as the rest of us. You have your best interpretation of the song. But you could be right as to its original intention as I or anyone else could as far as to whether that's what *Maynard* himself wrote it.

Maybe that's why I questioned your motive of trying to peg Maynard's meaning when even if you did manage to get it right, you'd never know, so why bother looking at it from that perspective and not just pursue what it means to you. Which in all fairness may be just as valid as to what MAynard meant when he wrote it as anything else.

[weak&weary]

(Forgive me for sounding like a jerk in this post.)

Many of you fine folks seem to believe that everything is subjective. If this is true, than so is the very idea of Subjectivity, and anything you say to argue your point is undermined by your own doubt towards it. Essentially, such is a view not unlike Nihilism, which is a belief in nothing.

If “the nature of art” is one of an individual’s interpretation of it, than why are you so entranced by the words and sounds of this band, when a block of wood could edify your philosophy just as easily?

When you give up the right to be the observer you give up the right to think for yourself.

Not true. If only a personal perspective is applied to what is “observed,” than one can never truly LEARN; they will only reinforce their previous beliefs. A superfluous act, as, according your views, to have beliefs in the first place is a breach of Subjectivity, and would be hypocritical.

Like I said, if people want to misinterpret the song and be a pig in mud. Squeal away. It's fine with me.

Just don't come on an opinion page and rant around how I shouldn't express my opinion. (emphasis Weak’s)

I bet I'm not really even on this opinion page...

>poof<
If none of you believe in your own Opinions, as your arguments suggest, what are you doing on an Opinion forum? Why share your Opinions if you know it is of no import to anyone else? Why read other’s observations, or give your own, if you will glean nothing from them?

Yes, I as well am interested into what Maynard thinks about the song. Just as much as I'm interested in what everyone else thinks about it...

Tool's music is a tool. Just like had I designed the wheel ages ago to actually be a table and someone came along and looked at that tool and decided it would work better as a wheel. Well, it's still my creation... there was still a 'meaning' behind what I created but if someone comes up and creates a new meaning for it then that person's assigned meaning is just as valid as mine. Me being the creator doesn't give me some divine right to determine meaning...

Even if Maynard has one meaning in mind it doesn't matter. (emphases Weak’s)
Then why did you profess interest in Maynard’s and Everyone’s thoughts?

The wheel/table analogy is interesting, but misrepresented. The original creation (the table, in your analogy) was made to convey a specific point/ serve a specific purpose... it is fine to garner something of further use from personal perspective, BUT you cannot continually discount the original intention. If you gave it more import, you may find your view of things radically changed, and perhaps very grateful that you did not limit yourself to “what it means to you”...

If we are all “One”, then we should start listening to each other and have a willingness to be wrong... even if that means being wrong about never being wrong. Otherwise, we’re stuck in a rut and blind to the need of getting out of it.

[mogwaifearme]

No Quarter:
Lock the door, kill the light
No one's coming home tonight

It's getting colder (7x)
Locked in a place where no one goes

Awesome!!!!!!!!

[ThreeDeviations]

Thank you Weak...

[weak&weary]

Anytime, yo.

[Towelie]

Anytime, yo.

Did you know that if you force food up your ass, you shit out of your mouth? No really, it's the truth. I saw it on TV.

Yep, way to go justifying force fed young altered ego.

Dude, the point is, it's all good. But, when IT states, "No, really, this is it, believe me," I don't think anyone who has humility in check will pay much attention. For, that is what IT wants. And, IT has followed up ITs interpretations, valid as they may be, on other threads hammering it out.

This existence is not complicated. But, it is complex. Simple platitudes or blocks of wood don't cut it. There are grey aliens, I mean AREAS to life experiences and art.

If you want to talk scientific method, that's a whole 'nother ball game.

This isn't a dig at you at all, but at the 10,000 days listening party at CosM Alex told us what Adam and Maynard told him this song was about. It is about their friend that tripped out and these were the things he was saying while he was tripping. Someone wrote a lot of it down. When their friend awoke he didn't remember saying any of these things. But he did literally shit in his "bed" (sleeping bag).

BUT you should take what you want out of it, that's what this shit is all about.

bellamadia: Thanks for that tidbit. I'm inclined to believe you. Somebody whispered in my ear the guy's name. It could be bullshit, who knows. It doesn't matter. There was a Cartman reference I was told about but, hehe, that would be too funny.

I hate even saying "I heard that" because there is enough bullshit on the Intraweb to confuse and disrespect the art & listener so, my bad.

I'm realizing Maynard has humbled a lot of himself out over the years. Deaths of people close to you will force you to face many demons. The album is full of confessions in my opinion. For as much as he works, I'm just happy he can smile.

[Carny_Handles]

There is 1 answer.

There is 1 real meaning.

Deal with it.

If you want to interpret the words to suit your own feelings.. go ahead. But don't try to dole that nonsense.

Maynard doesn't sit down and write a bunch of arbitrary words and phrases down with the hope that it will reduce teenage goth suicide.

He writes Specific words and Phrases down to stop white faced girls in boots from jumping from the 11th floor.

There's 1 meaning to the songs.

One

OMG!M!M!>>#>Z>Z>! 11:11:11


maybe i dont really care what maynard is trying to say. Yeah, its fun to know what he personaly is singing about.. but once the song enters MY ears, and relates to things in MY life.. it becomes MINE. I think thats how music should be.

[ThreeDeviations]

Towel boy, he's justifying his OWN opinion and thought... they just happen to align with mine. Yes, I know that disturbs you deeply.

You don't think "anyone who has humility will pay much attention?" Is that why you're quick to reply whenever this thread gets active again?

Towel Boy says, "It's all good." I've already stated that if you're wrong and happy... then good for you.

All good is different than all right.

Stick with Southpark and caring for the man who cleaned you up that day.

:)

[bellamadia]

Ok guys, taking you all back to 6th grade English Class:

The meaning of opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Example of an opinion: I think this song is about....

The meaning of fact: Knowledge or information based on real occurrences

Example of a fact: This song IS about...

Everyting you've stated Angelina Jolie, lol, is written as fact and you argue it as fact by putting down others ideas and insiting your view is correct. Then when someone calls you out on it, you say it's your opinion.

[bellamadia]

bellamadia: Thanks for that tidbit. I'm inclined to believe you. Somebody whispered in my ear the guy's name. It could be bullshit, who knows. It doesn't matter. There was a Cartman reference I was told about but, hehe, that would be too funny.

I hate even saying "I heard that" because there is enough bullshit on the Intraweb to confuse and disrespect the art & listener so, my bad.
.

Yeah, all I can say is I was there and that is what Alex said. I tend to believe him, he seemed like a pretty upfront guy. But again, that is ALL I can know.

[bellamadia]

(Forgive me for sounding like a jerk in this post.)

Many of you fine folks seem to believe that everything is subjective. If this is true, than so is the very idea of Subjectivity, and anything you say to argue your point is undermined by your own doubt towards it. Essentially, such is a view not unlike Nihilism, which is a belief in nothing.

If “the nature of art” is one of an individual’s interpretation of it, than why are you so entranced by the words and sounds of this band, when a block of wood could edify your philosophy just as easily?


Not true. If only a personal perspective is applied to what is “observed,” than one can never truly LEARN; they will only reinforce their previous beliefs. A superfluous act, as, according you’re your views, to have beliefs in the first place is a breach of Subjectivity, and would be hypocritical.


You are correct in your theory..... However this theory assumes that we can LEARN what the truth is. Unless we know Maynard, and assuming that he is honest, we cannot possibly know what the ultimate true meaning is of any of his songs.

Therefore, our interpretations are subjective. We cannot truly LEARN anything real from our thoughts on these songs, we can only learn what others believe. It's much like religion.

[ThreeDeviations]

:

The meaning of opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Example of an opinion: I think this song is about....


I never said I have "proof."

What a dictionary says... A dictionary is subjective if you anal dorks want to get philosophical.

but I'll play along with the definition... that definition does nothing to negate anything I've said anyhow.

this is an OPINION forum... I'm not going to preface every fuckin post by saying "I think this song is about"... just to placate the idiots on this thread.

It's redundant. Here, let me sign onto an opinion forum... then let me qualify everything as "this is only my opinion... but."

If people write something I don't agree with... I will tell them so. It's my opinion they're wrong.

Bush or Kerry? Watch the debates? Did you think any of their opinions were right or wrong? Oh, you didn't? Good thing, otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite.

a lot of you people don't even understand the basic concept of an opinion... let alone a Tool song. opinions can have conviction. and guess what... some opinions are actually right.

[weak&weary]

You are correct in your theory..... However this theory assumes that we can LEARN what the truth is. Unless we know Maynard, and assuming that he is honest, we cannot possibly know what the ultimate true meaning is of any of his songs.

Therefore, our interpretations are subjective. We cannot truly LEARN anything real from our thoughts on these songs, we can only learn what others believe. It's much like religion.
I agree; LEARNING from our own thoughts is a fruitless venture, and that was my initial point. We mustn't confront someone's opinion as merely "what it means to them," but instead treat it as a view that is potentially much clearer than our own.

And I also agree that we cannot ever truly KNOW the truth of Maynard's actual intention for the songs; but again, my point is that for one to discount the existance of that truth would render irrelevant any of their views brought to the table, as it would then only be coming from them. "Stinkfist" was once (to me) a repugnant song about anal fisting. Now I know it is something much richer than that; and I know it because I reached for the truth.

Hence we must seek out the root intentions, impossible though it may be to grasp fully. If you didn't think so, then, with all due respect, I doubt you would be here.

[bellamadia]

I never said I have "proof."

What a dictionary says... A dictionary is subjective if you anal dorks want to get philosophical.

I hate to break it to you, but this is the pot calling the kettle black.

but I'll play along with the definition... that definition does nothing to negate anything I've said anyhow.

this is an OPINION forum... I'm not going to preface every fuckin post by saying "I think this song is about"... just to placate the idiots on this thread.

It's redundant. Here, let me sign onto an opinion forum... then let me qualify everything as "this is only my opinion... but."

If people write something I don't agree with... I will tell them so. It's my opinion they're wrong.

Again, you put others down, call them names, attack and act like you are holier than thou with your opinions that you insist are the answer. You must be a very hard person to get along with. I hope you aren't like that with your students. Hopefully you aren't. Maybe you only act like an egotistical jerk on web forums where you can hide behind, oh say, a photo of Angelina Jolie. It seems to me that you might be a insecure. Typically those types overcompensate as you seem to.

Bush or Kerry? Watch the debates? Did you think any of their opinions were right or wrong? Oh, you didn't? Good thing, otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite .

Ummm, apparently you can even read minds. Thanks for answering a question that you posed to ME. This just further illustrates my point.

[BlanketEffect]

The whole point to any of this wasn't that what you were saying wasn't an opinoin... just like any of us... it's just that you have the audacity to make the assumption that what you get out of it is exactly what Maynard gets out of it (in a nutshell) - I have some meanings to the song, and I'm potentially sure that Mayanrd meant one of those meanings when he wrote it...

But this is an opinions board on what the songs mean to you. Those are the only opinions that can truly, in a sense, be objective, because you're only speaking about what you in your heart and mind know for a fact that it's about - to you. Claiming that your opinion matches Maynard's doesn't meak your opinion in and of itself any less valid than anyone else's. It makes you seem like an arrogant ass that somehow thinks that he thinks on the same level as Maynard - or anyone else for that matter.

Just becuase you listen to a lot of Maynard's lyrics doesn't qualify you any more than myself or any other listener. Your opionion is just as valid. But it's no more likely Maynard's interpretation than mine. So you're wasting your time chasing a paradigm that you'll never be able to substantiate. Welcome to organized religion... "I don't like to think for myself, I try to figure out what Jesus/Buddha/Muhammad/Other meant exactly when HE wrote it... doesn't matter what I think it means... it's all about the creator"

And that's poor logic and rationalization.

[ThreeDeviations]

"I hate to break it to you, but this is the pot calling the kettle black."


"Again, you put others down, call them names, attack and act like you are holier than thou with your opinions that you insist are the answer. You must be a very hard person to get along with. I hope you aren't like that with your students. Hopefully you aren't. Maybe you only act like an egotistical jerk on web forums where you can hide behind, oh say, a photo of Angelina Jolie. It seems to me that you might be a insecure. Typically those types overcompensate as you seem to."


"Ummm, apparently you can even read minds. Thanks for answering a question that you posed to ME." This just further illustrates my point.


1--- That's merely showing you how idiotic it is just to take the stance of everything is subjective. It's sarcasm, to prove a point... once again- over your head. It's not the pot calling the kettle black. It's the pot letting the kettle know it's full of shit.. and to take that shit off the burner.

2--- I am holier than though with my opinions. Relative- me to you. I am a hard person to get along with... if you're an idiot. Hide behind a picture of Angelina Jolie? I'd hardly categorize what I say on here as "hiding." Seems like I might be insecure? Well, maybe I can dig through some old pictures of mine, find the worst one possible... and then put it up as my avatar so people will think ... "this bitch is crazy enough to put that picture up with that face and those awful tits..... wow, she's secure. Let me go read what she's written!"


3---Apparently you need to re-read what I said.. and actually think about it this time.

[ThreeDeviations]

and another thing Bella...

I realize you took a lot time to get into that silly outfit.. do you hair.. and got your camera ready...

But in my opinion, toolshed.down.net isn't a dating service.

But I could be wrong about that.

[koobcam]

At first listen... I couldn't hear more than about 5 words.

Good song though. I think you guys read into these things so much. It's very clever.

[bellamadia]

and another thing Bella...

I realize you took a lot time to get into that silly outfit.. do you hair.. and got your camera ready...

But in my opinion, toolshed.down.net isn't a dating service.

But I could be wrong about that.


That took me five minutes FYI. It was to surprise my fiance on New Years. Oh yeah and certainly my fiance would be quite upset if he thought I were on here trying to find a date. So, really, don't fuckin' claim you KNOW shit about me too because I won't have it.

Honestly, I looked at your profile because before I called you out I wanted to make sure you weren't some 17 year old that is still trying to find herself but when I saw that you were 40 all bets were off. You'd think by now you'd have a more open-mind, some respect for others, less of a fuckin' attitude problem and some security. I feel for you, I honestly do.

Oh, but don't flame me Angelina, it's just my OPINION and after all, my opinion is right if I live by your logic.

[Towelie]

1--- That's merely showing you how idiotic it is

know it's full of shit.. and to take that shit off the burner.

Well, maybe I can dig through some old pictures of mine, find the worst one possible... and then put it up as my avatar so people will think ... "this bitch is crazy enough to put that picture up with that face and those awful tits..... wow, she's secure. Let me go read what she's written!"

and another thing Bella...

I realize you took a lot time to get into that silly outfit.. do you hair.. and got your camera ready...

But in my opinion, toolshed.down.net isn't a dating service.

But I could be wrong about that.

You make me sad.

This is the first and last thing I will ever say to you. Because, your ego demands attention and this the last energy I am going to give it.

In this whole thread, all you needed to allow yourself to do is say, "I'm sorry." Or, state, "I apologize. Sometimes I get too judgemental. That's how I roll."

For you to get so angry to personally attack in such a way is completely of juvenile mind.

I apologize for engaging your thoughts in the first place. I have no business here nor desire it.

Good luck. Out.

[bellamadia]

You make me sad.....

Now, I leave you with your quest for self destruction. I wish you luck.


Well put!!

edit* Towelie later edited this part out but I caught it just in time.

[bellamadia]

The whole point to any of this wasn't that what you were saying wasn't an opinoin... just like any of us... it's just that you have the audacity to make the assumption that what you get out of it is exactly what Maynard gets out of it (in a nutshell) .................

And that's poor logic and rationalization.

Your entire post was right on!!!

[ThreeDeviations]

That took me five minutes FYI. It was to surprise my fiance on New Years. Oh yeah and certainly my fiance would be quite upset if he thought I were on here trying to find a date. So, really, don't fuckin' claim you KNOW shit about me too because I won't have it.

Honestly, I looked at your profile because before I called you out I wanted to make sure you weren't some 17 year old that is still trying to find herself but when I saw that you were 40 all bets were off. You'd think by now you'd have a more open-mind, some respect for others, less of a fuckin' attitude problem and some security. I feel for you, I honestly do.

Oh, but don't flame me Angelina, it's just my OPINION and after all, my opinion is right if I live by your logic.


5 minutes huh? haha
nice NYE gift.

"So don't claim you know shit about me." I didn't. I asked if you thought this site was a dating service.

So let me get it right.. You don't want me to assume anything about you... but it's perfectly okay for you to say I'm female, 40 years old, and insecure.

nice...

love the hypocrisy... keep it up.

[ThreeDeviations]

You make me sad.

This is the first and last thing I will ever say to you. Because, your ego demands attention and this the last energy I am going to give it.

In this whole thread, all you needed to allow yourself to do is say, "I'm sorry." Or, state, "I apologize. Sometimes I get too judgemental. That's how I roll."

For you to get so angry to personally attack in such a way is completely of juvenile mind.

I apologize for engaging your thoughts in the first place. I have no business here nor desire it.

Good luck. Out.


This is the first and last thing? Okay, best of luck to you and your domestic partner.

Channel all of your energy toward his.

[Artistic Sickness]

I dont understand how someone can say their opinion is RIGHT, unless it has been verified by the creator... opinions and interpretations are bed-pals.. and go hand-in-hand... There is nothing wrong (or right) about saying this song makes me feel this way or that... but saying "This is my opinion... this is what the song MEANS... ..i am right"
... i mean... come ON. Until Mr.Keenan comes up to you, gives you a good hard slap, and tells you what the song is about, your opinion is NOT right... and you need to develop the maturity to understand that no opinion is right until verified by the creator. Saying you are right makes you sound like a juvenile moron looking for an argument. When one says an opinion... im sure it's universally understood that everyone else thinks you think you are right... you dont need to keep telling people it. No.. you dont need to put "I think.. blahblahblah" but you also dont need to say ".. and this is RIGHT."
And in Tool's art (or most art in general) things are often purposely written (when talent is present) to have several meanings... it's a sign of a great lyricist to be able to write something and incorporate multiple meanings and feelings into one piece... Maynard does it plenty, and im sure he has here as well.
To say there is one meaning and nothing else is of any relevance or worth is very ignorant and very pretentious.
You have a very good idea with your view on the song, Angelina... but it's worth nothing more than someone saying it's an elaborate metaphor on anal sex.
Cheers.

[Artistic Sickness]

And it's a sad day when people start making fun of other people's clothes and hair styles, or assuming they know anything about someone based on what they decide to anonymously type on a message board.

[ThreeDeviations]

... i mean... come ON. Until Mr.Keenan comes up to you, gives you a good hard slap, and tells you what the song is about, your opinion is NOT right...

When one says an opinion... im sure it's universally understood that everyone else thinks you think you are right... into one piece... Maynard does it plenty, and im sure he has here as well.

To say there is one meaning and nothing else is of any relevance or worth is very ignorant and very pretentious.

You have a very good idea with your view on the song, Angelina...
Cheers.

1--- Until he slaps me and tells me I'm wrong. I will be right. It's my opinion. Sometimes opinions are more than just speculation.

2--- I know. That's the whole point. Think about it.

on a sidenote... you say... "Maynard does it plenty, and I'm sure he has here as well."

Let me play the game since all of you like to waste my time doing it...

Maynard does what plenty?! You're not Maynard, you don't know what he's really saying! Don't pretent you know. Unless Maynard comes to your and slaps you on the forehead... you don't know he does anything plenty!

You also say "I'm SURE he has here as well.." How can you be SURE! I'm gonna call the Maynard police and clog up the boards now. I am so offended you think you're "sure" about something! You have absolutely not right to feel self-assured about anything... if you do, it will rattle my own self identity and bring me to tears... please stop. You know nothing like the rest of us imbeciles!

3--- There is 1 meaning. Not everything else is entirely meaningless all the time.. Rosetta is a good example.

My opinion will be right until "proven" wrong.
Is someone guilty until proven innocent in our country?

If Maynard knocks on my door and says he read the post and says I'm wrong. Then I'm wrong.

I wish he would read all my posts and then make his own post telling you just how accurate I am... and how clueless that makes you. I'd even be content with him acknowleding to you fools that "yes, I had an actual intended meaning when I sat down and wrote this fucking song... of course I did. Are you serious? God damn, what the fuck is wrong with people.."

[Artistic Sickness]

How can i be sure? that's what an opinion is. I'm sure of something because, in my opinion, i am correct.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I agreed that your view on the song was a good one. I'm saying you're acting arrogant and maybe need to grow up. It seems you like saying an opinion like it's fact to start arguments. This place is for discussion, man... but how can you discuss things when everyone else is wrong? In your mind, there is no discussion neccessary.
I don't get your problem.
Why are you relating having an opinion to being guilty or innocent?
Makes no sense.

[magdalena.]

Hey, look at that, another stupid flamer shits on his thread to increase posts, but has nothing to say.

[bellamadia]

So let me get it right.. You don't want me to assume anything about you... but it's perfectly okay for you to say I'm female, 40 years old, and insecure.

nice...

love the hypocrisy... keep it up.

This makes absolutely NO sense. I didn't assume you were female, you called yourself a bitch and mentioned your tits... so unless you are a transsexual I don't see how I am assuming anything.

Also, your profile says you are 40, again, no assuming.

And as far as the insecurity goes, I don't need to assume my dear, you show it in your every post.

I realize though that you really have had nothing of any real intelligence to say and that is why your opinions have to be so strong. Stop trying to prove you can play with the big boys on the tool site and just be real.

You are not worth any more of my time. I'd rather have intelligent debate with some of the people on this site that have something valuable to say.

Gooooooood luck!

[ThreeDeviations]

How can i be sure? that's what an opinion is. I'm sure of something because, in my opinion, i am correct.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I agreed that your view on the song was a good one. I'm saying you're acting arrogant and maybe need to grow up. It seems you like saying an opinion like it's fact to start arguments. This place is for discussion, man... but how can you discuss things when everyone else is wrong? In your mind, there is no discussion neccessary.
I don't get your problem.
Why are you relating having an opinion to being guilty or innocent?
Makes no sense.


How can you be sure? "Because it's my opinion." Well, that's my take as well. I don't get on here to start arguments. I defend my own opinion on the song. I'm not acting arrogant. If it comes across that way... then it's your opinion I'm arrogant... that's fine.

I do speak my mind like it's a fact... that's how certain I am it's right. = (the inspiration/reason the man sat down to write the song)

I'm not Maynard. I concede I could be wrong. But I am not going to pussyfoot around and hold hands with everyone. Especially when the people who tend to disagree either think the majority of the songs are about either...

1) Anal Sex
or
2) LSD or drugs in general

... which is a fucking joke.

but the sad reality is, I'd rather have some kid come on here and think 4 degree is about fucking some girl in the ass than have some kid come come onto an opinion page and clog the whole thread by trying to tell me not to have an opinion with any conviction... or worse yet... not to have any opinion at all because everything in life is subjective. How deep. There's a place for that type of thinking and philosophy.. and I'd even join the discussion... but it's ridiculous to come on this thread talking that nonsense.. and that's a fact.

and not "everyone else is wrong." I've read other opinions that made me think to self, "wow, that's a neat perspective, they could be right about that." That just happens too rarely because people are too caught up in anal sex and drugs... or in this thread's case lately... "everything is subjective / dont have an opinion with any real conviction."

Everything made started out as someone's opinion. Some opinions are right.
When you're riding in a car. You're really in a car. You're really moving down the road. I accept certain "truths" in life for the sake of existing and communication with other human beings.. and I HAVE TO. Anyone can talk in circles forever about lack of "absolute truth" in life.

If you think I'm an arrogant asshole.. Then make a post if you feel the need saying... "hey bitch, you're an arrogant cunt." Don't clog the board by saying I don't have the right to have an opinion with some conviction... and then defend it when an imbecile says I'm out of line or too presumptious.


Opinion and "innocent or guilty."

In a trial, you're innocent or "right" until proven guilty or wrong...

I have the same mentality with my posts.

Until Maynard knocks on my door and tells me I'm wrong. I won't be.

I suggest you go and read all my threads. If you think I'm an arrogant fuck, that's fine. But you will learn something new about a song that you didn't know before.. and that's what matters to me.. even if you hate how I get the point across.

[wearethestories]

This makes absolutely NO sense. I didn't assume you were female, you called yourself a bitch and mentioned your tits... so unless you are a transsexual I don't see how I am assuming anything.

Also, your profile says you are 40, again, no assuming.

And as far as the insecurity goes, I don't need to assume my dear, you show it in your every post.

I realize though that you really have had nothing of any real intelligence to say and that is why your opinions have to be so strong. Stop trying to prove you can play with the big boys on the tool site and just be real.

You are not worth any more of my time. I'd rather have intelligent debate with some of the people on this site that have something valuable to say.

Gooooooood luck!
Thanks... I try talking her down in other forums and her self-righteous bitchiness just gets me more riled up.

*letting it go*

And...

Anyone else think this song might be about falso prophets?

There's a strong link in the tone (or, how I perceive the tone) with Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" (concerns Islam). I am NOT saying that this had an influence on the lyrics or ANYTHING LIKE THAT, I'm merely noting that the tone seems to be a bit satirical.

Picture this:

Mohammed goes up to the mountain and listens to the Angel Gabriel, only what he hears isn't coming from anyone else but himself --- he's justifying his own beliefs with angelic authority (Mohammed doesn't want women to wear scandalous clothing because it's a temptation for him, Islamic men can have four wives but he gets 12, make war with people who defy him, etc). Somewhere in there the writer (a man named Salman) decides the coincidences are too great and plays around with the "Holy Words" and Mohammed doesn't notice. The PROPHET doesn't notice, and then the writer loses faith.

I was thinking that the narrator in "Rosetta Stoned" is much like Mohammed... he has all these important things to say, he is the chosen one, but he forgot his pen --- it was all in his head, induced by hallucinations.

Now, I know this doesn't translate very well, but hopefully my clumsy synopsis and lame explanation gets through to somebody. Or at least makes them attempt to pick up and understand Rushdie's Satanic Verses. It's cultural and amusing and almost won the Man-Booker Prize in 1988 (Rushdie won the Booker of Bookers for "Midnight's Children"... so you know he's a good author).

Anyway, sorry for the length and inanity of this post.

[ThreeDeviations]

BELLA says...

"This makes absolutely NO sense.
Also, your profile says you are 40, again, no assuming."


Funny how you didn't actually address my post at all.

Nice attempt at being condescending...

By the way, I was wondering.... so it's not okay if someone is 17.. and it's not okay if someone is 40. They just have to be somewhere in between apparently.
I am 40? My profile says that. I better change that... Funny, I thought is said 4° = 4 degrees... but that's how clueless you really are.

stick with what you know best, which is using TDN as your personal goth dating service. You might get some more dates if you actually put some clothes on.

The saying is "less is more." But that doesn't apply for you.

[Artistic Sickness]

*sigh* to the above

Wearethestories, thats a pretty neat take on it... i dont think ive read anyone else come up with anything similar. It would keep with the general dislike towards religion or religious figures Tool seems to like to lean to...

[bellamadia]

This is the first and last thing? Okay, best of luck to you and your domestic partner.

Channel all of your energy toward his.


Ok, this is the LAST thing I am going to say on this post, then I'm done with the bullshit. I couldn't let the above comment to Towlie go.

Where the fuck is this coming from Angelina? I'm not sure if perhaps Towlie is gay and said so in another post. If so, this condescending tone about him being gay is fuckin disgusting.

If Towlie is not gay and you just said this because you think implying someone is gay is an insult then that’s even MORE disgusting.

So on top of being insecure, rude and self righteous, you are also a bigot! WOW you just keep on getting more fuckin' pathetic the more you post.

Oh and for the 3rd time Angelina (learn to read) I am engaged, getting married in 2 months and not looking for a fuckin' date.

And, where the fuck did you get that I am goth? Oh wait; you have no basis for any of your comments. That's right! For a moment I thought I was dealing with a reasonable person.

Take that picture of Angelina down too, someone as humble and giving as her would be appalled to have her image associated with someone like you.

Last but not least, your comments about how I look and dress make you look incredibly immature, insecure and jealous. It's not becoming at all.

Why don't YOU channel all of that energy on some soul searching, maybe get to the root of why you are the way you are and work on improving yourself. I hope someday you'll find it in yourself.

I'm done.

[ThreeDeviations]

Bella, I see you still never addressed my post.

You're done? Darling, you never got started.

Towlie, yes, he's a gay. I am merely wishing him the best! Channel that energy, Towlie.

Sincerely, the
insecure, rude, immature, jealous, self-righteous bigot dude chick who's always right.

P.S.
Getting married in two months? Congrats. I'm sure he's thrilled.

[Typical]

personally, in my humble opinion, i think threedeviations is 95% wrong. don't tell him i said so though :)

so much drama in this thread *sigh*.

in my opinion this song is simply about how the people who are privy to the most valuable information are always the biggest idiots ("i didn't even graduate from fuckin high school"). i don't think that maynard sees himself as threedev has put it (in this particular song at least),

"overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position
such a heavy burden now to be the one
born to bear and read to all the details of our ending
to write it down for all the world to see......"

at this point, threedev believes that the narrator switches from maynard himself to the "typical" idiot fan.

".......but i forgot my pen, shit the bed again, typical"

i disagree. it seems rather obvious to me that there is one person talking for the duration of this song. i highly doubt maynard would all of a sudden start talking in the first person as himself for just this one part of the song, when (at least in my opinion) the entire lyrics are a narration from "our protagonist" or whatever the guy on toolband calls him.

just my opinion though, so hopefully another flame war doesn't get started here. some of you guys take this shit way to seriously. i'm sure someone will shortly tell me that i am definitely wrong. which is fine.

[ThreeDeviations]

That's great you feel that way. Decent post. Instead of saying why you think mine is wrong. Say why you think yours is right.

(how people who are privy to the most important info are idiots) other than "and I didn't graduate from fucking high school" how does it make sense.

no need to flame you based off what you said.

But I will say Maynard has switched narrator/1st person before. Jimmy.
That's what i can think of immediately... possibly others as well.

[Artistic Sickness]

in my opinion this song is simply about how the people who are privy to the most valuable information are always the biggest idiots ("i didn't even graduate from fuckin high school"). .

hmm... thats a really good way of looking at it... it kinda ties into the global political mindset Maynard appears to be in (eMotive, Vicarious)

[carefreeonmorph]

Stinkfist is not about sexual fisting.. but it's written through that metaphor.
4 degrees isn't about anal sex... but it's written through that perspective.
Prison Sex isn't about having sex in prison.

Dude you're telling us everything we know, but you look at it all with a very closed mind. Music touches people because of the way they percieve it. I feel no good artist writes lyrics expecting the fans to percieve them the same way they were written. Music is ALL about what it means to you. If you are a gay man listening to 4 degrees and it takes you to that place of whatever gay men do than in retrospect that is EXACTLY what the song is about. You need to think outside your paradigm.

[IncognitoBandito]

"I can't remember what they said to me....Can't remember what they said to make me out to be a hero"

Seems like there would be a lot of weight put on ones shoulders ...... say that someone sang for a rock band.....One day, fans got the impression that this singer held all the answers to thier troubles...... until he told them that he "Didn't know ... Won't know".... he's only a TOOL for you to find your own answers .....yada, yada, yada.
To think, all "because a little bug went ka-choo!":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLvN78z3Vro

[ThreeDeviations]

Dude you're telling us everything we know, but you look at it all with a very closed mind. Music touches people because of the way they percieve it. I feel no good artist writes lyrics expecting the fans to percieve them the same way they were written. Music is ALL about what it means to you. If you are a gay man listening to 4 degrees and it takes you to that place of whatever gay men do than in retrospect that is EXACTLY what the song is about. You need to think outside your paradigm.


*yawn*

1 meaning

you want to think a song is about anal sex or drugs. good for you. if it makes you happy... congratulations. be wrong, be happy. i'm happy for you. that's not the point. try reading the thread in its entriety before clogging the thread. if you did read the thread and still posted that... well, you're just an idiot then.

[ThreeDeviations]

"I can't remember what they said to me....Can't remember what they said to make me out to be a hero"

Seems like there would be a lot of weight put on ones shoulders ...... say that someone sang for a rock band.....One day, fans got the impression that this singer held all the answers to thier troubles...... until he told them that he "Didn't know ... Won't know".... he's only a TOOL for you to find your own answers .....yada, yada, yada.
To think, all "because a little bug went ka-choo!":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLvN78z3Vro


sounds about right- though I think he says "made me out to be a hero"

but as far as the meaning... that's pretty close to my original post.

[ThreeDeviations]

.

[ThreeDeviations]

personally, in my humble opinion, i think threedeviations is 95% wrong. don't tell him i said so though :)

so much drama in this thread *sigh*.

in my opinion this song is simply about how the people who are privy to the most valuable information are always the biggest idiots ("i didn't even graduate from fuckin high school"). i don't think that maynard sees himself as threedev has put it (in this particular song at least),

"overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position
such a heavy burden now to be the one
born to bear and read to all the details of our ending
to write it down for all the world to see......"

at this point, threedev believes that the narrator switches from maynard himself to the "typical" idiot fan.

".......but i forgot my pen, shit the bed again, typical"


Listen how the tone changes in his voice after "for all the world to see."

that change in tone signifies how he switches from him talking, to then the "typical idiot fan."

and the sarcasm/condescension is in full force when he says "typical...."

[Typical]

Listen how the tone changes in his voice after "for all the world to see."

that change in tone signifies how he switches from him talking, to then the "typical idiot fan."

and the sarcasm/condescension is in full force when he says "typical...."



i think it's just the guy being frustrated with his own stupidity. he knows he's just a regular fool placed in the position of being the messenger with the ultimate message. i feel it's purely a first person narrative, because i really don't think maynard would just BLAST the great majority of his fans like that. i'll agree with you that he does think some of his fans are idiots (because they are) but it just doesn't make sense that he'd interrupt an eleven minute long first person narrative with four lines of his own bit of "wisdom" just to say that. he changes accents a LOT (distorted mumbling, screaming, singing) during the song, but it's always the same person talking, at least how i see it.

the song is more about "typical idiots" in general than "typical idiot tool fans" :) if there's any "fans" he's talking shit about, it's greatful dead fans haha.

plus do you really think he'd open up every single show on the tour with this song if it was just a big insult to all his fans?

[ThreeDeviations]

i feel it's purely a first person narrative, because i really don't think maynard would just BLAST the great majority of his fans like that.

plus do you really think he'd open up every single show on the tour with this song if it was just a big insult to all his fans?


I feel he does think the "majority" of his fans are idiots. A good representation would be the sample on this website or even on this thread. I'd say maybe 2 or 3 out of every 10 people on here actually have a decent understanding, which means at least 70% are just clueless.

So yeah, I dont think he'd have any problem opening up the show with this song at all. In fact, that's probably WHY he does it. I dont think it's so much to "insult" everyone... because 99% of the people don't get what the song is about anyhow.

But as for how you don't think he'd more or less "insult" people/fans... Stinkist and Vicarious are both slaps in the face of humanity... and for good reason. So how really "insulting" can it be when it's totally legitimate and accurate.

He knows that some people understand what he's/they're conveying. But he also understands the people that do get it are the vast minority.

He goes in and out of past or present tense.. changes narration on the fly in a moments notice. Just like as I said before in Jimmy. Also pops into my head how he does it in Wings for Marie part 1... song starts out past tense, "you believed in me.." then basically flips it to present tense when he asks his mother, "What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?"

Post is sort of all over the place, but the point is.. I don't think it's any stretch at all that he'd switch gears mid-song at all.


I also dont think he'd make an 11 minute song in the middle of the disk about............. about.....

[Typical]

can't forget about aenima as a direct slap in the face either. and i'm not disagreeing that he would "switch gears" as he does in other songs. i just don't think he does in this particular song. in "wings" he's talking about a whole lifetime with his mother, so it makes sense that he would switch from past to present tense.

but the other songs that are slaps in the face (aenima/LA, vicarious/american society) are more general, and make sense. but from your interpretation of rosetta, he's saying that EVERY SINGLE one of his fans (except you, it would seem) are idiots. if he truly felt that he would have stopped making music a long time ago i think, or would have simply titled the cd "i heart threedeviations."

but seriously, how can he switch gears at the moment you say he does?

"write it down for all the world to see"
switches gears (???)
"but i forgot my pen"

how can maynard be the one to "write it down" but then have the protagonist be the one who "forgot his pen?" makes no sense to me.

[ThreeDeviations]

can't forget about aenima as a direct slap in the face either. and i'm not disagreeing that he would "switch gears" as he does in other songs. i just don't think he does in this particular song. in "wings" he's talking about a whole lifetime with his mother, so it makes sense that he would switch from past to present tense.

but the other songs that are slaps in the face (aenima/LA, vicarious/american society) are more general, and make sense. but from your interpretation of rosetta, he's saying that EVERY SINGLE one of his fans (except you, it would seem) are idiots. if he truly felt that he would have stopped making music a long time ago i think, or would have simply titled the cd "i heart threedeviations."

but seriously, how can he switch gears at the moment you say he does?

"write it down for all the world to see"
switches gears (???)
"but i forgot my pen"

how can maynard be the one to "write it down" but then have the protagonist be the one who "forgot his pen?" makes no sense to me.

yeah, I didn't mention Ænema because that's directed more towards Los Angeles than everyone.

I'm not saying he thinks "every single one of his fans" are idiots... but he also can't write in a fashion that says "okay, for 20% of you who do get this, nevermind this part." He's generally speaking... because generally, most people are idiots.

Maybe just titled it "threedeviations"... leave off the "I heart" part. Sounds good.

How can he switch gears at that particular moment?
I don't know what you're really asking... but, but the song's climax builds and builds... and goes into the "overwhelmed...."

I'm just saying, that's the main message... after "for all the world to see..."

so after he's spoken his mind, he volunteers what he's basically seen from people over the years.. which is people more or less saying, "but I forgot my pen"... Explaining that they would use his wisdom or advice... but they "can't remember what he said"... and they "forgot their pen" to write it down too...

which is "Typical....."

so they, "don't know, won't know"

anyhow, we'll probably just agree to disagree...

[Typical]

How can he switch gears at that particular moment?
I don't know what you're really asking... but, but the song's climax builds and builds... and goes into the "overwhelmed...."



what i'm asking is how maynard himself can be the one "to write it down" when the protagonist (not maynard) is the one who "forgot his pen." i just don't see how you think it can be two different people saying these two lines. unless i've misunderstood you. the song is either maynard speaking as himself the whole time, or the ramblings of a hippie who took too much acid, got told the secret of the end of the world, and was too dumb to write it down. it's not both of them alternating though, it's definitely one single person's point of view. WHICH ONE is what i'm currently trying to figure out for myself, and probably never will.

or it could just be a guy who tripped his balls the fuck off and made this all up in his head. THAT'S the great mystery of this song in my opinion. even the protagonist tries to convince himself that it isn't real ("fuck me, it's gotta be, deadhead chemistry, blotter got right on top of me, got me seein e motherfuckin t")

i can see maynard talking shit on LA and on american society as a whole. but blatantly flaming basically his entire audience? no way. and don't say it's not insulting because "99% of them don't get it." that's no less a possibility than YOU not getting it.

[ThreeDeviations]

I've already explained the "pen" part in the previous post.

The song isn't a mystery.

and, I do get it.

he's not going to write an entire song about some clown tripping his balls off as THEE MESSAGE. that's the bottom line.. especially not when he dedicates 11 minutes + to it.

The great mystery? all the other stuff is secondary... he wants to shed some light on area 51, aliens.. abduction... and obviously talks about the lsd issue as well... I think basically mocking how people abuse it or don't really use it for the "right" reason.. ( if there is a "right" reason at all. I personally don't think so.)

So although he does want to talk about the aliens and lsd... he just uses that as a medium to surround and disguise the real meaning. It's really not so cloaked at all... as the climax of the song says it all... why else does it sound totally different than the rest of the song?

but if Maynard mentions drugs.. or hints at anything sexual... people go into a frenzy. He knew all the addicts would froth over this song and title.

[Typical]

i think you just hate tool fans a lot haha.

the title ties into it perfectly though i think. the rosetta stone (and correct me if i'm wrong history buffs because it's been ages since high school history class) was a completely random discovery that enabled modern people to translate ancient texts or something like that. the guy in the song completely randomly gets shown some serious shit, but whats more like a stoner than forgetting your pen? (speaking of high school history class.....)

and the whole song sounds different than the rest of the song, you know? time signatures change, maynards voice changes a ton, (not just in the part you're referrring to) there's a completely new guitar riff out of nowhere ten minutes into the track etc etc etc. to say that that one particular spot is the ONLY place where things change (i.e. all of a sudden maynard himself interrupts the narrative) isn't right. if things changed EVERY time maynard changed his voice (well actually i think they do but not in the same way you do), then i might be more inclined to follow your opinion.

seriously though you need to give more tool fans a little bit more credit.

yikes i've argued this to death and i only came here to fill in some blanks on the lyrics of the very song we are discussing.

agree to disagree :)

[ThreeDeviations]

ha, yeah.. we'll agree to disagree.. I can appreciate where you're coming from-

As far as giving Tool fans more credit. Not likely. I've been to too many shows and read too many of their posts.

I said, 20 or 30% have a clue... anything more than that would just be inaccurate.

[BlanketEffect]

Are you sure it can't be about a drug trip for the most part but the meaning/intention of the song was to say that drugs are a catalyst for the message and not the longterm way to acheive the message. Drugs can let you see enlightenment, if only for a moment, but they're not the path. You constantly 'forget your pen' becuase you're so wrapped up in the experience.

You've got to walk the path soberly - drugs just prove to you that the possibility exists and perhaps find the path. It's then up to you to find out how to get there without the tool.

[BlanketEffect]

And ultimately it may be an illustration of his disdain for people that think that because they found 'god' on acid or whatever drugs that they have the answers.

Like... people think that because they've witnessed the 'truth' that they are now somehow enlightened. Knowing enlightenment is there and possible to attain is very different than maintaining it after the chemical wears off.

He's trying, I believe, to tell those people that use drugs as their main source of spiritual connectedness that in most cases, you might think you're enlightened, but in the end you just forgot what was said and shit the bed. Wow... some kind of enlightenment. Your enlightenemnt ends when the chemical is used up. You don't know... and won't know... the truth. Because you rely on something external to bring you internal truth.

And FYI, this is not a jab at drugs. Drugs are awesome and fuck any close-minded twit that says otherwise. I don't care if your sister OD'd on meth... that's her fault for not being able to use that tool properly. Some people kill each other with cars because they use them irresponsibly (i.e. abuse them); should we criminalize cars?

[ThreeDeviations]

And FYI, this is not a jab at drugs. Drugs are awesome and fuck any close-minded twit that says otherwise. I don't care if your sister OD'd on meth... that's her fault for not being able to use that tool properly. Some people kill each other with cars because they use them irresponsibly (i.e. abuse them); should we criminalize cars?


AND "FYI"? Haha, from the person who says it's "all about how the individual interprets the song..." now you're going to give me a "FOR YOUR INFORMATION!?" That's actually fine you have an actual opinion.... I am glad you do... it's just sort of amusing and hypocritical.

You basically plagiarized Maynard's quote in your previous post too. Nice job.

"I think psychedelics play a major part in what we do, but having said that, I feel that if somebody's going to experiment with those things they really need to educate themselves about them. People just taking the chemicals and diving in without having any kind of preparation about what they're about to experience tend to have no frame of reference, so they're missing everything flying by and all these new perspectives. It's just a waste. They reach a little bit of spiritual enlightenment, but they end up going, 'Well, now I need that drug to get back there again.' The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug." - Maynard


Drugs are baaaad... mmmmkay?

I would like to hear a personal story of yours when YOU used drugs as a "TOOL" and it brought about some gain or "enlightenment."

Something as practical as possible please.

Should we criminalize cars? You admit a car is a real thing now? Sweet.
Umm, no. We shouldn't criminalize cars. Just the people who are high driving the car.

[BlanketEffect]

I was 26, just moved in with some friends in a rather unremarkable town. One of them introduced me to Ayahuasca and DMT. Listening to Lateralus while on several trips of that brew as my ego was torn apart I really came to grasp the idea that all the preconceived notions I had about what was definite and right or wrong were simply subjective experiences. In a sea of infinite possibilites, how can one assert that they KNOW anything. All they can do is give the best subjective guess at the moment. DMT/Tool helped me to realize this.

I listened to Tool many times before (for years) but I guess I never really got what they were trying to say... or at any rate, what I think they're trying to say. Once the DMT tore down the walls of my ego, I was more clearly able to see what it meant to truly embrace infinite possibilities. To momentarily step outside of my constricted view of the reality around me and realize, ultimately, that my perception of reality is JUST that. Perception. And perception is subjective. So what is totally real/right to me may not be to another.

The FYI wasn't to assert that I'm pushing it on you, I was saying it so that you'd know, for your information, that I wasn't condemning drugs. Of course I have an opinion, I'm a subjective being, we all are. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'm not saying that opinions are bad. Quite frankly, in the subjective cause/effect universe we're in, everything is an opinion. It's not hypocritical. It would be hypocritical if I said my opinion was more valid than yours. Which is what I seem to keep hearing from your camp.

--- And in all actuality, if I was basically quoting Maynard about the use of drugs, it was sheer coincidence. I had never read that quote until you just posted it. But the sentiment is the same. So I think a responsible drug user should have that outlook. The fact that I said something that Maynard said (in so many words) just means we share that particular perception on the topic. Nothing too profound about that.

And yes, cars are as real as anything else. What that means however is totally up for subjective interpretation. Yours included.

[carefreeonmorph]

I'm not saying he thinks "every single one of his fans" are idiots... but he also can't write in a fashion that says "okay, for 20% of you who do get this, nevermind this part." He's generally speaking... because generally, most people are idiots.

WTF man. Who are you to say "most people are idiots"? I think Maynards talkin about judgemental assholes like yourself in alot of his music. *cough* Hooker With a Penis *cough* You really think you have it all figured out when in fact it's all how YOU'VE percieved it. I dunno why your mother never said "NO" to you as a child but it's unfortunately led to a closed minded selfish individual unable to cope with the fact that your ideas aren't the ONLY ideas. I'm pissed at myself now for trying to open doors to someone unwilling to open their eyes and look at things from a different perspective therefore i'm done.

[carefreeonmorph]

Maynard is going to sit down and write a song about some kid's less than perfect LSD trip?! Right....


fuck all you druggies
It was stated at a listening party by Mr. Grey himself that this song WAS written about a friends LSD trip and he did in fact shit in his sleeping bag.

[ThreeDeviations]

It was stated at a listening party by Mr. Grey himself that this song WAS written about a friends LSD trip and he did in fact shit in his sleeping bag.


read the whole thread, genius.

thanks

[ThreeDeviations]

I was 26, just moved in with some friends in a rather unremarkable town. One of them introduced me to Ayahuasca and DMT. Listening to Lateralus while on several trips of that brew as my ego was torn apart I really came to grasp the idea that all the preconceived notions I had about what was definite and right or wrong were simply subjective experiences. In a sea of infinite possibilites, how can one assert that they KNOW anything. All they can do is give the best subjective guess at the moment. DMT/Tool helped me to realize this.

I listened to Tool many times before (for years) but I guess I never really got what they were trying to say... or at any rate, what I think they're trying to say. Once the DMT tore down the walls of my ego, I was more clearly able to see what it meant to truly embrace infinite possibilities. To momentarily step outside of my constricted view of the reality around me and realize, ultimately, that my perception of reality is JUST that. Perception. And perception is subjective. So what is totally real/right to me may not be to another.

The FYI wasn't to assert that I'm pushing it on you, I was saying it so that you'd know, for your information, that I wasn't condemning drugs. Of course I have an opinion, I'm a subjective being, we all are. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'm not saying that opinions are bad. Quite frankly, in the subjective cause/effect universe we're in, everything is an opinion. It's not hypocritical. It would be hypocritical if I said my opinion was more valid than yours. Which is what I seem to keep hearing from your camp.

--- And in all actuality, if I was basically quoting Maynard about the use of drugs, it was sheer coincidence. I had never read that quote until you just posted it. But the sentiment is the same. So I think a responsible drug user should have that outlook. The fact that I said something that Maynard said (in so many words) just means we share that particular perception on the topic. Nothing too profound about that.

And yes, cars are as real as anything else. What that means however is totally up for subjective interpretation. Yours included.


I think your change was brought about by Lateralus, the CD, not DMT.
The music and lyrics were the drug.

Yeah, you had heard Undertow, Opiate, Ænima.... those cds are much more cynical than Lateralus. They really don't suggest "tearing down your ego." This cd just struck a chord, and you had an epiphany.

Why didn't you "change" when listening to the previous Tool cds when you were drugged up? You're going to say it was specifically "DMT?!"

Why do you think you wouldn't have changed without some drug altering your "perceived" reality?


The reality is, even if there is such thing as "responsible drug use" for those that somehow need it to understand their life or Tool.. or whateverthefuck....

The majority of Tool junkies aren't that-

[BlanketEffect]

I never did drugs (other than pot) until DMT and hence had never listened to the other albums on it. So the shift in perception I had was a direct result of both Lateralus and the DMT.

It's possible that without the drug I might have had the break
through. I certainly like to think I'd eventually start down the path with or without it. But the fact is that I did use it, it did catalyze the thoughts that lead to my shift, and hence, I take away from the experience the knowledge that it helped me.

I mean, I know it's kind of a bad analogy but it's the best I will take the time to come up with as I'm about to go to bed... Imagine you're drowning and someone jumps in and saves you... now you could argue that you might have figured out how to on your own and thereby not needed to be saved by that person, but the point is they were the tool that ended up helping you, regardless of what you *might* have done had they not been around.

And I'd been listening to Lateralus for three years before then, much more casually. If DMT in and of itself wasn't the catalyst for the shift then it was certainly the catalyst that helped me to find a life-changing message in Lateralus. All in all I don't regret doing it and occasionally still do partake of Ayahuasca. It's not a crutch. It's simply a tool.

[ThreeDeviations]

I was just reading through a thread and came across member "FistFck..."
at the bottom of his/her posts, there's a quote from Maynard....

""Being a rock band that’s arguably offering up some more intelligent processes, we do often get A LOT of kids coming up who may not necessarily be the brightest bulbs in the box, who DON'T REALLY GET IT. But if it is to be about ‘hate songs’ well, good for them. Not what I INTENDED, but that’s cool.” mjk

Merely echos what I've been saying on this thread and site for a long time now...

[tbrent21]

It was stated at a listening party by Mr. Grey himself that this song WAS written about a friends LSD trip and he did in fact shit in his sleeping bag.


Perhaps there was some incident that served as the catalyst or creative spark for the song. But that is a little different concept than what the song was "written about." This song has quite a bit of depth and mystery.

[wearethestories]

I've already explained the "pen" part in the previous post.

The song isn't a mystery.

and, I do get it.

he's not going to write an entire song about some clown tripping his balls off as THEE MESSAGE. that's the bottom line.. especially not when he dedicates 11 minutes + to it.

The great mystery? all the other stuff is secondary... he wants to shed some light on area 51, aliens.. abduction... and obviously talks about the lsd issue as well... I think basically mocking how people abuse it or don't really use it for the "right" reason.. ( if there is a "right" reason at all. I personally don't think so.)

So although he does want to talk about the aliens and lsd... he just uses that as a medium to surround and disguise the real meaning. It's really not so cloaked at all... as the climax of the song says it all... why else does it sound totally different than the rest of the song?

but if Maynard mentions drugs.. or hints at anything sexual... people go into a frenzy. He knew all the addicts would froth over this song and title.
agreed.



though I still think you could come down of your holier-than-thou cloud and be slightly more personable



but hey --- progress is progress

[briadugg]

So does that mean that whoever writes something determines what it's about? And if they never tell anyone what it's about and 99% of the people think it's about something totally different, who's right?

From a quantum mechanics or buddhistic standpoint, there is no such thing as objective meaning. Meaning, experience, interpretation, they're all sole province to the observer. The observer determines, and thereby creates, the meaning and experience as it interacts with it.

So if whatever Maynard himself had in mind when he penned the lyrics is all you're interested in, I'm sorry you must live in such a bland world where you give up your right as the observer so someone else can spoonfeed you the meaning.

I think this is where you say "BOOYAH!"

[slowmo]

I've already explained the "pen" part in the previous post.

The song isn't a mystery.

and, I do get it.

he's not going to write an entire song about some clown tripping his balls off as THEE MESSAGE. that's the bottom line.. especially not when he dedicates 11 minutes + to it.

The great mystery? all the other stuff is secondary... he wants to shed some light on area 51, aliens.. abduction... and obviously talks about the lsd issue as well... I think basically mocking how people abuse it or don't really use it for the "right" reason.. ( if there is a "right" reason at all. I personally don't think so.)

So although he does want to talk about the aliens and lsd... he just uses that as a medium to surround and disguise the real meaning. It's really not so cloaked at all... as the climax of the song says it all... why else does it sound totally different than the rest of the song?

but if Maynard mentions drugs.. or hints at anything sexual... people go into a frenzy. He knew all the addicts would froth over this song and title.

Well I am going to have to say that you are rather arrogant and presumptuous.

It isn't a mystery to you? You do get it?

YOU DON'T KNOW, AND YOU WON'T KNOW GENIUS; only a FEW people (the members of Tool, maybe a few others) Know the meaning of the song, and who it is about.

So any opinion you (or anyone) can come up with about the song is purely speculation, unless you hear it from the horses mouth.

I do agree with you that there is "one" meaning to the song; however Maynard's lyrics are FULL of figurative language, making it very very difficult to extrapolate the true meaning. If he wanted us to know exactly what he was trying to say, he wouldn't express himself in such a figurative manner.. I do believe also that Tool intends the music/lyrics to be interpreted in any manner; as long as it is positive.

So just like it says at the end of the song, you don't know what it means, and you won't know what it means. You may come up with your own opinion, but there is only one way to validate it. If you are good friends with any of the band members, then please excuse my previous comments about being arrogant or presumptuous.

[ThreeDeviations]

Well I am going to have to say that you are rather arrogant and presumptuous.

It isn't a mystery to you? You do get it?

YOU DON'T KNOW, AND YOU WON'T KNOW GENIUS; only a FEW people (the members of Tool, maybe a few others) Know the meaning of the song, and who it is about.

So any opinion you (or anyone) can come up with about the song is purely speculation, unless you hear it from the horses mouth.

I do agree with you that there is "one" meaning to the song; however Maynard's lyrics are FULL of figurative language, making it very very difficult to extrapolate the true meaning. If he wanted us to know exactly what he was trying to say, he wouldn't express himself in such a figurative manner.. I do believe also that Tool intends the music/lyrics to be interpreted in any manner; as long as it is positive.

So just like it says at the end of the song, you don't know what it means, and you won't know what it means. You may come up with your own opinion, but there is only one way to validate it. If you are good friends with any of the band members, then please excuse my previous comments about being arrogant or presumptuous.

I excuse you.

and try reading the entire thread before saying silly stuff.

Is this an opinion page?

yup, I'm arrogant and presumptious.

yup, he writes "figuratively," and cleverly, metaphors.. all that. I gave my opinion on what the song is about. I know, it's an outrage. The arrogance. The audacity...

You say "if he wanted us to know he wouldn't express himself in such a figurative manner." Please refrain from making any assumptions about Maynard or how he writes.... afterall, it's not like you're on some opinion page. Thanks

[slowmo]

I excuse you.

and try reading the entire thread before saying silly stuff.

Is this an opinion page?

yup, I'm arrogant and presumptious.

yup, he writes "figuratively," and cleverly, metaphors.. all that. I gave my opinion on what the song is about. I know, it's an outrage. The arrogance. The audacity...

You say "if he wanted us to know he wouldn't express himself in such a figurative manner." Please refrain from making any assumptions about Maynard or how he writes.... afterall, it's not like you're on some opinion page. Thanks


You are correct. I should not assume anything about Maynard. I know I made a jab at you, but I don't want a battle. I kinda felt like you were being a little, ostentatious, and wanted to bring it to your attention.. Sorry. I am kinda getting the vibe that you are the kind of Tool fan that assumes most other Tool fans are not worthy, or oblivious to the fact that the music contains depth. Even the most ignorant, unintelligent fool could come to some dim-witted conclusion of what a Tool song means, and still be as close as any of us. For all I know, any opinion I have is far from the truth. I pride myself in being open minded, thinking outside the box, and being able to admit my own faults. When disecting a Tool song, it seems there are infinite possibilities.....

It just seems that IF someone were to figure out what Maynard REALLY means, we could debate and scrutinize that opinion until the cows come home; still not knowing if we are right. Obviously this forum is here for discussion, but why not keep it on a positive note?

Yes this is an opinion page, and we are all entitled to an opinion; however I felt by you saying "It's not a mystery" and "I do get it" you were assuming you knew the true meaning of the song. My bad if my assumption was incorrect, but that was quite a bold statement you made.

So my OPINION of the song, is that the true meaning will never be revealed [don't know, won't know].

[ThreeDeviations]

I dont think the "don't know, won't know" is referring to the song's meaning.. if that's what you're saying.

I don't want a battle either.

however

I do feel most Tool fans "don't get it." That's just how I feel. Even Maynard himself acknowledges that. If that makes me arrogant and rude... so be it. Does that mean Maynard is arrogant and rude too? My threads don't start out sarcastic and arrogant. It's having to defend my position.. and then having to reply to hundreds of tools who say I can't have an opinion with conviction or there's no real meaning... blah blah.

you say, "Even the most ignorant, unintelligent fool could come to some dim-witted conclusion of what a Tool song means, and still be as close as any of us."

That's where I disagree with you.

""Being a rock band that’s arguably offering up some more intelligent processes, we do often get A LOT of kids coming up who may not necessarily be the brightest bulbs in the box, who DON'T REALLY GET IT. But if it is to be about ‘hate songs’ well, good for them. Not what I INTENDED, but that’s cool.” mjk

Sometimes opinions are more than just opinions.

Because I think the songs have 1 intended meaning, it doesn't mean I am close-minded.

Because some people think there's not one real meaning.. that doesn't mean they're open-minded.

[Typical]

""Being a rock band that’s arguably offering up some more intelligent processes, we do often get A LOT of kids coming up who may not necessarily be the brightest bulbs in the box, who DON'T REALLY GET IT. But if it is to be about ‘hate songs’ well, good for them. Not what I INTENDED, but that’s cool.” mjk



i think you're taking maynard's quote out of context. in that quote it sounds to me like he's referring to the people who think his music is "angry" or "hateful" just because it has heavy guitars and screaming and shit, therefore overlooking the whole aspect that there is an actual deep meaning of the lyrics. how i see it, the ones who "don't really get it" are the ones who mosh at tool shows (and elbow me in the face when i'm trying to listen) and could care less about the meaning of the song. you make it sound like the people who "don't really get it" are simply the ones that "misinterpret" his lyrics. plus, adding emphasis (ie CAPS) that wasn't originally there further puts the quote out of context.

[sicmanunfed]

well, i wasn't going to respond to this one untill i read that

there is no way in hell that's what this song is about

for one thing, as others have mentioned, lost keys (blame hoffman) refers to dr. hoffman who first sythesized acid.

i don't believe maynard is egotistical enough to see himself as some misunderstood chosen one. this song is about a charecter who uses lsd then has an acid trip in which he is abducted, given a message, and forgets it due to the acid fucking with his memory. it's not just a song about "some kid's less then perfect acid trip" it's a cautionary tale. i don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile. that part is just my take on it, but i don't see any reasonable way to refute the charecter potrayed here as being on acid.


"but i forgot my pen"

[ThreeDeviations]

i think you're taking maynard's quote out of context. in that quote it sounds to me like he's referring to the people who think his music is "angry" or "hateful" just because it has heavy guitars and screaming and shit, therefore overlooking the whole aspect that there is an actual deep meaning of the lyrics. how i see it, the ones who "don't really get it" are the ones who mosh at tool shows (and elbow me in the face when i'm trying to listen) and could care less about the meaning of the song. you make it sound like the people who "don't really get it" are simply the ones that "misinterpret" his lyrics. plus, adding emphasis (ie CAPS) that wasn't originally there further puts the quote out of context.

Oh, when Maynard spoke those words, the words didn't come out in caps?

I think he's saying generally, people miss the boat... ESPECIALLY the morons who think their songs are about hate. He says "a lot" of kids coming up to them who "don't get it." I don't think they're all thinking "hate" in regard to these "intelligent processes." They just dont get it in general. Not because they all think their songs are about hate. Hell, even I'll give most "Tool fans" the benefit of the doubt on that one.

But I agree with your moshing thing... very frustrating and pathetic.

In regard to your thinking he's saying the ones that "don't get it" are the ones moshing. He says they get a lot "coming up" who may not be the brightest bulbs ... so I don't think he's referring to the kiddies in the mosh pit.

and these tools who mosh at show... COULDN'T care less. Think about it.

(now I suppose this is going to open a new can of worms about all the toolsheds who think moshing is the right thing to do... or "okay" to do at a show)

Let me guess, "if that's the way they want to express themselves.. then they're allowed."

Yeah, okay. As long as you realize you don't get it.

[NawnimNonNomen]

*yawn*

1 meaning

you want to think a song is about anal sex or drugs. good for you. if it makes you happy... congratulations. be wrong, be happy. i'm happy for you. that's not the point. try reading the thread in its entriety before clogging the thread. if you did read the thread and still posted that... well, you're just an idiot then.

ThreeDeviations,
I notice your profile lists you as a teacher, and I'm really hoping you're a math teacher, and not an English/Literature teacher. Your whole point seems to be that there is only one correct meaning and that this one meaning is the intent behind Maynard's writing/singing of the lyrics. Yet, even in authorial intentionality (and never mind New criticism, deconstruction, post-, etc. just yet), multiple meanings are valued and respected provided their aim is to deduce intent and the means employed violate no normally assumed interpretive methodology. So, since Maynard offers no direct explanation of his intention in the song, a number of divergent theories are entirely acceptable, especially those that draw from his past work and biography. You've got, from what I see, a valid beginning of an interpretation, and you've locked it into nomonology already, before it's even been fleshed out.

This is not about your being or not being arrogant. I teach, and I'm an arrogant prick. However, I also make sure and research, understand and acknowledge different approaches and interpretations to everything I teach--otherwise, my confidence comes from having the answer key and not from having grasped the field I'm teaching.

Other than that, I'll just ask whether the track that follows Rosetta tells you anything about THE answer. Since it's entitled "Intension"--pointedly not "IntenTion"--no one is really off-track in exploring all possible meanings for the song (even from an approach of intentionality, provided their goal is to deduce what he's saying), and at least one possibility suggested is that Maynard is opening the album up to response-criticism as a valid approach.

[Garguantua]

*yawn*

1 meaning

you want to think a song is about anal sex or drugs. good for you. if it makes you happy... congratulations. be wrong, be happy. i'm happy for you. that's not the point. try reading the thread in its entriety before clogging the thread. if you did read the thread and still posted that... well, you're just an idiot then.


Actually, he has a good point.

EDIT: I meant the guy who you are responding to. Not you. You have no good points.

[NawnimNonNomen]

Anyone else think this song might be about falso prophets?

There's a strong link in the tone (or, how I perceive the tone) with Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" (concerns Islam). I am NOT saying that this had an influence on the lyrics or ANYTHING LIKE THAT, I'm merely noting that the tone seems to be a bit satirical.

Picture this:

Mohammed goes up to the mountain and listens to the Angel Gabriel, only what he hears isn't coming from anyone else but himself --- he's justifying his own beliefs with angelic authority (Mohammed doesn't want women to wear scandalous clothing because it's a temptation for him, Islamic men can have four wives but he gets 12, make war with people who defy him, etc). Somewhere in there the writer (a man named Salman) decides the coincidences are too great and plays around with the "Holy Words" and Mohammed doesn't notice. The PROPHET doesn't notice, and then the writer loses faith.

wearethestories,
Great tie-in, and you may be on to something. (By the way, if you go back to the Mahound section and read not just Mahound traveling up to Mount Cone but Gibreel Farishta playing Mahound going up to Mount Cone to talk to the angel Gibreel that Gibreel Farishta is also playing and apply what you get out of that to the whole novel, it really intensifies the whole novel's sense of being broken down in terms of what's believable.) Of course, I can also think of another "prophet" who wandered out into the wilderness and "forgot [his] pen": What's worse is that this prophet apparently never could find his pen, so he just told people his stories; then they wrote them down. Who knows how distorted the message has become since then?

[ThreeDeviations]

ThreeDeviations,
I notice your profile lists you as a teacher, and I'm really hoping you're a math teacher, and not an English/Literature teacher. Your whole point seems to be that there is only one correct meaning and that this one meaning is the intent behind Maynard's writing/singing of the lyrics. Yet, even in authorial intentionality (and never mind New criticism, deconstruction, post-, etc. just yet), multiple meanings are valued and respected provided their aim is to deduce intent and the means employed violate no normally assumed interpretive methodology. So, since Maynard offers no direct explanation of his intention in the song, a number of divergent theories are entirely acceptable, especially those that draw from his past work and biography. You've got, from what I see, a valid beginning of an interpretation, and you've locked it into nomonology already, before it's even been fleshed out.

This is not about your being or not being arrogant. I teach, and I'm an arrogant prick. However, I also make sure and research, understand and acknowledge different approaches and interpretations to everything I teach--otherwise, my confidence comes from having the answer key and not from having grasped the field I'm teaching.

Other than that, I'll just ask whether the track that follows Rosetta tells you anything about THE answer. Since it's entitled "Intension"--pointedly not "IntenTion"--no one is really off-track in exploring all possible meanings for the song (even from an approach of intentionality, provided their goal is to deduce what he's saying), and at least one possibility suggested is that Maynard is opening the album up to response-criticism as a valid approach.

I'm not great with algebra.

Let me ask you, are some students smarter than others? Or are all perspectives and opinions equally valid? Some opinions deserve more respect than others.

I do believe there is 1 intended meaning by Maynard.

There's motivation and reasoning behind the things we do. Would you sit down and write a song about... nothing? What do you do in your life where "nothing" is your ultimate goal? Probably not much. You think Maynard would write a song vaguely and scrabbled enough that it means everything, and yet absolutely nothing to everybody... merely to placate people who think he writes without intention and intension?

The man has arrogance, the man has conviction, the man is brilliant. I promise you he's not going to write a song without a hopeful outcome. Can you miss the meaning, and still reach a positive outcome? Probably. (unless you're one of the people who mosh at the show)

If multiple opinions other than mine don't deduce a damn thing they're not meaningful to me.

Sure, different opinions or "meanings" than mine are fine if they mean something to a particular person. I just think they're misinterpreting the song. But if their take makes them happy... then fine, whatever. No harm no foul. But I believe there is 1 meaning, and one right way to analyze and absorb the song in your mind.

When Maynard sings the songs, he sings it with the same passion that drove him to write it in the first place..
When Maynard sings the songs, he sings it with the same passion that drove him to write it in the first place..

He knows what he's singing about. The song isn't an abstract painting. It's not really as subjective as nearly everyone wants it to be.

You think I have a valid beginning to an interpretation... I don't think there's more to it than what I've said. . or what he says in the song's climax. I think he mentions the drugs and aliens for a couple of reasons. He really does want to shed some light on those couple of things.. and secondly, it's good cover for what he's really saying.


The follow up track only supports what I'm saying. (if it has a connection) Intension is synonomous with intensity. So some guy is arrogant, brilliant, caring, and intense.... but he's going to write songs without a real meaning. k

[BlanketEffect]

Maybe he did write it with one meaning. I've got a couple interpretations that seem valid to me... I don't know Maynard personally, so I don't know if my intermretations were the meaning that he had when he wrote it. So maybe I'm right and you're wrong? I dunno, but I don't assert that I am somehow more qualified to define Maynard's thoughts than other Tool-listeners. I agree, a lot (or most) Tool fans don't 'get it' (whatever that means to the individual) but the ones that do and pay attention to meanings and patterns... they're just as likely to be right as you are.

So I think basically that so many people are speaking out against the *way* you stated your opinion - as in that it was a fact. Not once in this entire time have you said something to the effect of "I think this is what Maynard means, but I could be wrong" or even alluded to your own fallibility on the subject. You act as though not only is it your interpretation but that anyone that has a different one is *wrong* - well 'wrong' is an absolute and unless you have a litmus test (i.e. Maynard posting on here as to the original meaning) then who are any of us to dictate which one he meant and who is wrong?

So maybe there's one meaning. You've got no better chance at pegging it than any other 'learned' Tool listener. I think we're just trying to say be a little more openminded in the way you present your opinions. If it's an opinion don't state it in the form of a fact. And don't be surprised when you *do* state your opinions in the form of facts that people give you flak for it. Remember where you are. Theoretically we're here because of our open-mindedness. (or at least the attempt of it)

All that aside, I don't think Intension has anything to do with Rosetta Stoned. I'm thinking it's meant as the setup for Right In Two both musically and in meaning. "Intension" referring to the tension that is innately a part of our race. Just a play on words to say that there is a struggle and a 'tension' between and entwined into our thought processes about our dealings with one another.

[BlanketEffect]

He knows what he's singing about. The song isn't an abstract painting. It's not really as subjective as nearly everyone wants it to be.


You're also absolutely right here. A song isn't subjective. At all. Opinions are, however, *all* subjective. Objects aren't subjective. Otherwise they wouldn't be objects. A song is an object that causes a subjective experience.

[ThreeDeviations]

You're also absolutely right here. A song isn't subjective. At all. Opinions are, however, *all* subjective. Objects aren't subjective. Otherwise they wouldn't be objects. A song is an object that causes a subjective experience.


Experiences are subjective. The man had intention when he wrote the song, therefore, the meaning isn't subjective. You may not know it, so you deem it as subjective. It doesn't mean it's subjective.

All opinions are not subjective. Some are right. Did Einstein have any ideas that were ever proven to be true?

It doesn't even have to be complex.

[BlanketEffect]

Well, when an opinion is 'right' then it is no longer an opinion. It becomes a fact.

And maybe we're just not on the same page as to what exactly 'subjective' means.

sub·jec·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sb-jktv)
adj.

Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.

Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.

Moodily introspective.

Existing only in the mind; illusory.

Psychology: Existing only within the experiencer's mind.

Medicine: Of, relating to, or designating a symptom or condition perceived by the patient and not by the examiner.

Expressing or bringing into prominence the individuality of the artist or author.



Now let's look at 'opinion'

o·pin·ion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pnyn)
n.
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing:

Now, my subjective opinion of the above two definitions leads me to believe that *all* opinions are subjective. Whether they are 'right' or 'wrong'. Otherwise, as said above, they would be "objective fact".

[ThreeDeviations]

you mosh?

[BlanketEffect]

Not since Pantera about ten years ago. That would be the only time and it was for one song. Not really my way of getting into the music...

[ThreeDeviations]

Yes, I know... your way is DMT.

[NawnimNonNomen]

I'm not great with algebra.

Let me ask you, are some students smarter than others? Or are all perspectives and opinions equally valid? Some opinions deserve more respect than others.

I do believe there is 1 intended meaning by Maynard.

There's motivation and reasoning behind the things we do. Would you sit down and write a song about... nothing? What do you do in your life where "nothing" is your ultimate goal? Probably not much. You think Maynard would write a song vaguely and scrabbled enough that it means everything, and yet absolutely nothing to everybody... merely to placate people who think he writes without intention and intension?

The man has arrogance, the man has conviction, the man is brilliant. I promise you he's not going to write a song without a hopeful outcome. Can you miss the meaning, and still reach a positive outcome? Probably. (unless you're one of the people who mosh at the show)

If multiple opinions other than mine don't deduce a damn thing they're not meaningful to me.

Sure, different opinions or "meanings" than mine are fine if they mean something to a particular person. I just think they're misinterpreting the song. But if their take makes them happy... then fine, whatever. No harm no foul. But I believe there is 1 meaning, and one right way to analyze and absorb the song in your mind.

When Maynard sings the songs, he sings it with the same passion that drove him to write it in the first place..
When Maynard sings the songs, he sings it with the same passion that drove him to write it in the first place..

He knows what he's singing about. The song isn't an abstract painting. It's not really as subjective as nearly everyone wants it to be.

You think I have a valid beginning to an interpretation... I don't think there's more to it than what I've said. . or what he says in the song's climax. I think he mentions the drugs and aliens for a couple of reasons. He really does want to shed some light on those couple of things.. and secondly, it's good cover for what he's really saying.


The follow up track only supports what I'm saying. (if it has a connection) Intension is synonomous with intensity. So some guy is arrogant, brilliant, caring, and intense.... but he's going to write songs without a real meaning. k

Are some students smarter than others? Sure, even taking into account different intelligence types, there are always superior students in a class. Of course, there are students with intelligences better suited to the subjects I happen to teach, and then there are the socially maladroit, physically clumsy specimens who don't do well in any subject--those folks whom I label "sharp as a doorknob" if they're lazy and indifferent and "underprepared" if they're willing to bust ass after realizing they're just not getting it. There are also extremely bright students who are lazy and indifferent (or whose parents and former teachers have apparently praised them into solipsism) and never manage to get it: I call them "Mensa morons."

Are all their opinions equally valid? Of course they're not. But I will note that the invalid opinions come from the Mensa morons just as frequently (if not more often) as from the underprepared students. (The sharp as a doorknob folks rarely form opinions beyond "Uh-own-oh.") Opinions are rendered invalid if they're purely personal, emotional reactions with no connection to stimuli; for instance, if someone were to say, "This song is about my brother, who's dying from cancer," a red flag should go up. If you ask this person what in the song tells him it is about his brother and he replies, "I think about my brother when I hear it," then you've got an opinion that's (yeah, nice enough for him) essentially invalid. (It's like saying, "French food is bad cooking because I'm allergic to milk.")

In the case of this particular song, I'd say the drug-trip and alien interpretations are certainly valid; there's definitely material in the song itself to draw the conclusion that such subjects are what the song is about.

Now, to go through the looking glass into chapter 8 and the "is about/means" topic. No, this song isn't an abstract painting, but it could be just the equivalent of a representational painting. It could just be Tool, for example, working to depict a bad trip (which they do damn well in Rosetta) and nothing more. "The bear is just a bear"; "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Stopping here is perfectly valid, and as a formalist interpretation, this works well; even attaching cautionary or moral purposes to the representation can be valid, if the people doing the interpreting are pointing to something specific in the song. Such attachments only become invalid if they're based on inadequate or incorrect information about the rationale or on blatant anachronism. (So it's valid to say the song depicts a bad trip in a cautionary manner, but not to say it's warning you about ending up like asshole A, who overdosed May 18th, 2006.)

Do I think Maynard would write a song vaguely and scrabbled enough that it means everything? (I think the above already answers the "nothing" part of the question.) Warning: Here, we're starting to get into a fuzzy place between what I'm getting from the song and other possibilities, so some cognitive dissonance is likely to occur. No, I don't: in fact, I don't think Maynard writes vaguely at all; I do think he often writes ambiguously. (By ambiguously, I mean with words/phrases allowing of two or more takes, as with the word intension: meaning "intense" or
meaning "connotation" or referring specifically to logic-referents or possibly "in tension," as suggested by blanket.)

This could be an attempt to be cryptic (hidden codes and meanings), but I don't think this is necessarily the case for two reasons: 1) the social attitudes that used to force folks to do this are largely absent; 2) I don't think he's enough of an ignoramus to unnecessarily and intentionally speak in nearly indecipherable codes and then feel frustrated that almost no one gets what he's saying.

Rather, I think he uses ambiguous language for two reasons: 1) sometimes he has only a vague sense of what he wants to say; 2) sometimes he's sending a message about ambiguity and intensionality themselves, so what other sort of language do you choose? So I think it's possible to come up with a (finite yet uncountable) number of perfectly valid interpretations without missing Maynard's message. I wouldn't say there were millions, but I don't think there has to be one even in terms of Maynard's intent.

Sorry for the thesis, but you did give me a lot to respond to. (And I can't stand the people who only respond to the weakest sentence in a post.)

[Artistic Sickness]

i decided to not comment in this thread a while ago *erhem* but i HAD to to say that the above is delicious. You make me feel dumb.

[Marshy]

I think both are right. All is right , and who cares what Maynard means ? It's about what "You" think


The same could be said of Stinkfist

[BlanketEffect]

Yes, I know... your way is DMT.

Whatever gets you where you're going.

[Aunt Acid]

Dear Three Deviations,
Please stop endulging yourself into art if you are going to be anal about it.

On behalf of everyone at this forum,
Aunt Acid

[ThreeDeviations]

Dear Three Deviations,
Please stop endulging yourself into art if you are going to be anal about it.

On behalf of everyone at this forum,
Aunt Acid

Dear Aunt Acid
Please stop indulging yourself in drugs.


On behalf of your mind and body..
ThreeDeviations

[Aunt Acid]

Dear Aunt Acid
Please stop indulging yourself in drugs.


On behalf of your mind and body..
ThreeDeviations

You don't even know if I do drugs.

[ThreeDeviations]

You don't even know if I do drugs.


I know.

[Aunt Acid]

I know.

No... you don't. Because my forum name here is Aunt Acid and I have a psychadelic looking avatar does not mean I do drugs.

[BlanketEffect]

No... you don't. Because my forum name here is Aunt Acid and I have a psychadelic looking avatar does not mean I do drugs.

Just stop... it's kinda like beating your head against a brick wall... the wall doesn't care and your head hurts. (if I haven't read that somewhere before I just coined it, yay maybe!)

[Aunt Acid]

Just stop... it's kinda like beating your head against a brick wall... the wall doesn't care and your head hurts. (if I haven't read that somewhere before I just coined it, yay maybe!)

Brilliant.

[ThreeDeviations]

You don't even know if I do drugs.


I know.

[Aunt Acid]

I know.

What part of Michigan are you from? I live in Taylor, about 20 miles from Detroit.

[ThreeDeviations]

What part of Michigan are you from? I live in Taylor, about 20 miles from Detroit.

Novi

[researchtriangle]

enough intellectual posturing and posting definitions from dictionary.com...hellooooo... chosen people? message for those who wish to hear it and a warning for those who don't? isn't anyone familiar with the modern ufo phenomenon?

[bhaphmet777]

Has it ever accurred to anyone that tool as a whole are deeply involved in magik. A mind thus trained to THE WORK. Perhaps what you are hearing is not what you hear. blessings.

[talibad]

Rosetta Stoned, Blame "Dr." Hoffman... it doesn't mean the actual meaning of the song is about drugs or LSD.

Stinkfist is not about sexual fisting.. but it's written through that metaphor.
4 degrees isn't about anal sex... but it's written through that perspective.
Prison Sex isn't about having sex in prison.

The song is written to shed some light on a few different things... area 51, alien abduction, its ramifications on people afterward.. side effects.. how others perceive people who say they've been abducted... etc.

Obviously there are drug references too... so when you say "I don't believe the message is that psychedelics are entirely a bad thing, just that dependance on them and them alone for enlightenment is futile" that sounds about right.

Just like the alien abduction though, it's NOT what the real meaning is about.

The climax of the song is when he sings..

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read you all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see"

It's no coincidence those are the words that are being sung during the climax.
All the other lyrics and references are entirely secondary to this part...
you can hear and feel it when you listen to the song..

This song's climax and actual message are very similar to Stinkfist... "something kinda sad about the way that things have come to be, desensitized to everything... what became of subtlety."

Both messages are clear and to the point.. no tricky wording.. no metaphors.. no bullshit.


Don't think the man is "egotistical enough?"

"I must crucify the ego..."
"silly monkeys"
"fuck you buddy, send more money."
"I should play GOD"
"feeding my narcissism"

The man has plenty of ego... and justifiably so. It's not farfetched at all to assume he's writing as if he's the "chosen one."

His ego, frustration and callused nature only strengthens when people continue to entirely miss the point in terms of what he's explaining or saying to people.




i will add that maynard also stated this is their "Blues Album" a manifestation of how they the band and he himself are extremely frustrated trying to preach enlightenment and people just not giveing a fuck. maby this song is that emotion personified as you said. as well tho tool songs are multi layered so it could be both that as well as the problem alot of hallucinogenic users have upon return with communication. you take a trip, your bombarded with info, and upon return you have to try and sort it out. its probly both to be honest

[jesus_harvey_oswald]

This is clear proof that people are totally useless. It goes to show how sad and lonely peole are that need to dedicate thier lives to deseminating and disecting every word that Maynard says. I'm a huge fan of the band but I don't let it control my every waking moment. Maynard is just a bisexual ex-junky from L.A. , he's not the fucking messiah. "he sniffled at the 8:23 mark of Third Eye, he's telling us that society is making us sick" ....... are you people for real ?? I'm not trying to insult everyone because I'm a fan also, but this is fucking rediculous........... I hope you guys enjoy the Kool-Aid and make sure you all have a few rolls of quarters with you before you get into bed with your Nikes on.

[Artistic Sickness]

he's not the fucking messiah..

W H A T ? ! ? ! ? ! ? !

[*myrdin*]

This is clear proof that people are totally useless. It goes to show how sad and lonely peole are that need to dedicate thier lives to deseminating and disecting every word that Maynard says. I'm a huge fan of the band but I don't let it control my every waking moment. Maynard is just a bisexual ex-junky from L.A. , he's not the fucking messiah. "he sniffled at the 8:23 mark of Third Eye, he's telling us that society is making us sick" ....... are you people for real ?? I'm not trying to insult everyone because I'm a fan also, but this is fucking rediculous........... I hope you guys enjoy the Kool-Aid and make sure you all have a few rolls of quarters with you before you get into bed with your Nikes on.

my writing-english is very bad, so i leave it to ThreeDeviations to react to stuff like the above...
after reading a lot of ThreeDeviations' comments i think i can safely say that he can speak for me aswell !!
&
ThreeDeviations bigtime thumbs up for you!!
i share your thoughts all the way
( it is just that englisch is not my first language, and that makes it very difficult for me to write down my thoughts here...)

grtz,
Myrdin

[Magos]

then again... he's probably just found an intricate new metaphor for anal sex.


lol, would not be surprised if you were right

[Magos]

This is clear proof that people are totally useless. It goes to show how sad and lonely peole are that need to dedicate thier lives to deseminating and disecting every word that Maynard says. I'm a huge fan of the band but I don't let it control my every waking moment. Maynard is just a bisexual ex-junky from L.A. , he's not the fucking messiah. "he sniffled at the 8:23 mark of Third Eye, he's telling us that society is making us sick" ....... are you people for real ?? I'm not trying to insult everyone because I'm a fan also, but this is fucking rediculous........... I hope you guys enjoy the Kool-Aid and make sure you all have a few rolls of quarters with you before you get into bed with your Nikes on.


I dig what youre sayn, MJK quote "for those who understand, no explaination is necessary, for those who dont no explaination will suffice" (or something close), no matter what the song means it will never be good enough for some people, they just keep digging. This is not always a bad thing but isnt that what lateralus is all about, you cant always analyse life, sometimes you just have to live it.

p.s does this remind anyone else of the bible, people arguing over what it really means, in which case I would have to say MJK is the fucking messiah.

[BlanketEffect]

MJK is just a messenger. A tool, aptly enough. Maybe not as many people 'get it' as could. So what? If he brings a handful into the light or even just opens their eyes to the possibility then he's done an immeasureable amount of good with the life he was given.

Kudos to Maynard!

[Magos]

MJK is just a messenger. A tool, aptly enough. Maybe not as many people 'get it' as could. So what? If he brings a handful into the light or even just opens their eyes to the possibility then he's done an immeasureable amount of good with the life he was given.

Kudos to Maynard!

Agreed. You cant completely comprehend another persons mind unless you are them. Like MJK, who has been inspired by others, we should take the ideals of others that inspire us and draw from them our own conclusions.

[Toolfan24]

This thread is about Rosetta Stoned, right? lol. Initially, RS was a secondary thought to me. Then I saw them live while in Germany, and it blew me away. 10,000 Days was what I looked forward to when hearing Vicarious, now it is the one-two punch of LK/RS. Lost Keys is so paranoia-inducing. Rosetta Stoned, as well as the rest of 10,000 Days has equally talented and mind-blowing qualities to it, just as Undertow/AEnema/Lateralus has. Just as Lateralus had it's initial detractors-10,000 Days will be embraced as a masterpiece by almost all Tool fans. In due time...

[BlanketEffect]

I agree with you, Toolfan24 - when I first got Lateralus shortly after its release (granted, I wasn't a deep Tool fan at the time) I was kind of disappointed with it on the whole and only really cared for a few songs on it - especially when compared to Ænima.

Now I look at it as being infinitely superior to Ænima (and indeed all other albums). It just takes time. Remember, the weather changes as time goes by. So I'm sure that as much as I enjoy 10,000 Days now my affinity for it will grow with time.

[carefreeonmorph]

So does that mean that whoever writes something determines what it's about? And if they never tell anyone what it's about and 99% of the people think it's about something totally different, who's right?

From a quantum mechanics or buddhistic standpoint, there is no such thing as objective meaning. Meaning, experience, interpretation, they're all sole province to the observer. The observer determines, and thereby creates, the meaning and experience as it interacts with it.

So if whatever Maynard himself had in mind when he penned the lyrics is all you're interested in, I'm sorry you must live in such a bland world where you give up your right as the observer so someone else can spoonfeed you the meaning.

Just checkin back on this thread cause I posted on it before, and I read this again and thought... the fact that the same argument has gone on as much as it has PAST this quote... is down right rediculous...

[johumuthiga]

In my opinion, Three deviations is right that all of tools songs have one meaning. In the past, the band memers have all said that all of their music is open to interpretation. But I think that people on this board are confused about the type of interpretation that they are talking about. The job of a music listener is to listen to the art, and let it affect you. It is not to say what you believe the artists were trying to say. The only evidence that the listener can really use, is how the music affected him/her. That being said, the way that I would go about interpreting rosetta stoned is to voice the feelings I had while listeing to the song. During the song, I have feelings of confusion,fear, understanding the purpose of life, and of a being hero. I would then simply say that these feelings are what the song is about. I would also talk about the climax of the song (overwhelmed). The climax makes me feel as though an experience, in this case an acid trip, has made me feel as though I am the one, the one to explain the meaning of life to everyone. But, the way this song ends leaves me with a feeling as though the understanding I once had is gone, it is a short lived feeling of enlightenment. I do not believe that this song is delivering a message. It is not saying that acid is good or bad. It is not saying that if you take acid you will understand the world. This song is simply expressing the emotions that come from having an experience in which life makes sense for a short while, and does so with great power.

[Magos]

You contradict yourself. You say its all about the way the song makes you feel, not interpreting the lyrics, yet towards the end of your post you're feelings are clearly influenced by the lyrics of the song i.e. what you believe the artists are trying to say. I dont know where you got feelings of enlightenment, and life making sence because I got chaos from this song. But thats my interpretation of how it made me feel. All songs have meanings, and they all mean different things to each person, so to say people are confused about how to interpret them isnt your call.

[NawnimNonNomen]

You contradict yourself. You say its all about the way the song makes you feel, not interpreting the lyrics, yet towards the end of your post you're feelings are clearly influenced by the lyrics of the song i.e. what you believe the artists are trying to say. I dont know where you got feelings of enlightenment, and life making sence because I got chaos from this song. But thats my interpretation of how it made me feel. All songs have meanings, and they all mean different things to each person, so to say people are confused about how to interpret them isnt your call.

Good call on the self-contradiction, Magos. johumathiga does, I think, have some legitimate point in claiming that listeners should pay attention to their feelings when considering a song (and when discussing it). The problem with paying attention only to feelings is that it disregards the effect of words on those feelings. Why does this "feel" to so many like an acid trip? Well, it's probably because the words and linguistic imagery suggest a trip. Why do so many "feel" at parts as though they are "the one"? Well, it's probably because the lyrics say, "You are the chosen one."

Take away the lyrics entirely, and most of our feelings during the song would probably be much more similar to yours--"I feel chaos." Or they might be radically different: "I feel scared" (because chaotic arrangement is frightening to me); "I feel thrilled" (because Tool has a new album out, woo-hoo), etc. Ignoring the lyrics' meanings is like ignoring a fifth instrument in the song. I can't say I "feel" a point in the song that's clearly enlightenment without the lyrics. (About the only solid enlightenment-sound I can think of are those like the one at the end of FNM's "Jizzlobber"--the church choir, organ sort of "aaah-aaah-aaah-aaah" sound.)

Still, johumathiga, I have to say ignoring all but the lyrics' meanings is like ignoring four out of five instruments in the song. Am I correct in guessing this was your meaning?

[johumuthiga]

You contradict yourself. You say its all about the way the song makes you feel, not interpreting the lyrics, yet towards the end of your post you're feelings are clearly influenced by the lyrics of the song i.e. what you believe the artists are trying to say. I dont know where you got feelings of enlightenment, and life making sence because I got chaos from this song. But thats my interpretation of how it made me feel. All songs have meanings, and they all mean different things to each person, so to say people are confused about how to interpret them isnt your call.

I don't believe that I ever said that the lyrics are not part of the song. The words in this song do affect me, and should affect me because they are part of the music. So, I do not really see how I contradicted myself. And, in my interpretation of the song I
definitely was "influenced by the lyrics of the song", but that is far different then saying "what I believe the artists were trying to say". The difference is
that I was simply saying how the entire piece made me feel, rather then saying what I believe that the musicians were trying to say.

I also never did say that "people are confused about how to interpret" songs. What I said was that people appear to be confused about what the band means when they say that their songs are open to many different interpretations. I believe that the place where people can have different opinions of a song is in a personal experience of listening to the music.

When a band creates a song, it is expressing a specific idea. The band expresses the particular emotions of that idea through their music. But, when someone hears the song, they do not have knowledge of what caused the emotions that are present in the song, they only feel the result of that initial idea. So, the only thing that the listener is certain about is the way that the song made that person feel.

so, in my opinion the only area that people can really have a different view of a song is in the listening experience. People will relate emotions to different life experiences, and will be filled with different thoughts. So, no one can be wrong when they say that Rosetta Stoned made them feel a certain way. It's not even a matter of right or wrong, it is simply a result. But, I believe that people are then taking their personal ideas, and using them to guess what caused the band to feel the way they did in the song, and i don't think that this can be done accurately.

So, take what Three deviations said: this "Song is about how Maynard perceives everyone... fans and society in general.. and he's losing patience". Then take what EmbraceTdOxOmL said "i believe it is a message for all of those people using pychoactive and disassociative drugs to reach some crazy places and open up their third eye, that they are all waisting their time because the affects of the Chemicals are clouding and distorting the experience. And there are much safer cleaner ways to get there". Both of these are using the listeners personal opinion to say what they believe the message of the song is. Both examples show how the song affected the listener, and what the song made the listener think, but these opinions are the result of one meaning. If Three deviations felt an impatient tone, and EmbraceTdOxOmL felt turned away from drugs, then the idea behind this song has created those feelings. So, the main idea of this song, the meaning of this song, would be as simple as: the band is expressing impatience, and feelings from the use of a substance.

So what i'm really trying to say is that the personal experience that comes from listening to a song is different then the meaning of the song. The meaning of a song can be understood from the feelings created by the song, but they are not the same thing. Everyone's opinion about a song is correct, but the meaning of the song must be able to justify all these different experiences. In other words, the song's meaning, what the band is expressing, creates all of these opinions.

[Magos]

Yawn. I want the half hour it took to read your post back.

[SnakeShadow]

First off, I would like to remind people of one of the greatest tools in literature, and poetry. Allegory. Remember that from grade 10 english. One story can have many meanings on many levels. Maybe Maynard thinks he is the one trying to give the message to all of us, and at the same time trying to understand his the message himself but it keeps slipping through the cracks the way philosophy tends to. Regardless, the point of this post is to remind everyone that unless Maynard comes out and explicitly says what the song is about, being dogmatic about a opinion is just ignorant. All that serves to do is provoke a knee-jerk reaction from everyone who disagrees, and rightfully so. Anyone who is so close minded about something can't be entirely correct because it is contradictive. The world is not black and white. There are too many ways to view an opinion as correct or incorrect for it to be entirely either.

And don't get cute with me telling about my hypocracy of stating this opinion. :) I'm still trying to work all the ramifications of what I have said through my head, and by tomorrow I might feel completely different about the subject.

[SnakeShadow]

Hmmm, just thought of something. I think ThreeDeviations may be making an improper analogy based on the wording of the song. If Maynard is the chosen one, then he has received the message from somewhere, but that doesnt matter. Now it is the time for the chosen one to relay the message for all to hear. But he forgot his pen. I think this less implies our inability to comprehend what he is telling us but rather implies his ineffectiveness in delivering the message. ie. he is not able to covey the message through his lyrical medium. Now whether Maynard would write a song about his inability to convey a message, I will leave up to you to discuss. I just wanted to point out a possible mistake in ThreeDeviations analysis of the song, cause it seems to me that he/she switched gears in the middle in order to come to the desired conclusion. Maynard is screaming that he shit the bed again. In order to come to the conclusion that ThreeDeviations came to, I suspect that Maynard would have to be the alien and all us tool fans be the chosen ones. Lemme know what you think

[Laugh]

three deviations...
notice the irony of this post?
Explaining the meaning, and having it fulfill itself on this post.
BTW, you're 100% right but it was futile to post something so
blatantly obvious. Haven't you learned by now most humans are dumbfucks?

[young-pilgrim]

ONLY on the internet can a group of intelligent, thoughtful people from diverse cultural backgrounds come together and bicker pointlessly about how they are each individually the sole possessors of an absolutely correct world view. Rock on fellow Tool fans. I think I'll join you.

It would seem to me that you are all right and wrong. Doubtless the man wrote certain songs based around certain specific situations or sentiments. Inspiration has to come from somewhere after all. But doubtless again he wrote certain other ambiguous songs with the specific intent of making people think, inspiring them to wonder and take time to glean their own lessons and meanings from the music and lyrics. It doesn't have to be just one way for every single song.

Any songs written by the artist with one particular meaning in mind are just as open to individual/personal interpretation as are any songs written without a clear cut meaning. That is, after all, the beauty of great art - it either imitates life so perfectly as to be beautiful or it has an inherent ambiguity that means it appeals to each individiual on a personal level.

I enjoy trying to figure out exactly what he's trying to say with some songs, trying to get to fit together a puzzle - but I get much more out of delving into the lyrics of a song, feeling the tone of the singing and the music, and coming out at the end with something that is much more than just a song, something intimately connected to my sense of self and my world view.

In the end I don't think it's THAT ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT that we know and understand his exact meaning with each song and change ourselves based on what he has to say. To each his own. I mean this is music not organised religion, right?

[young-pilgrim]

Oh and just to inspire a little thought in those of you who subscribe to the "We have to know Maynard's singular meaning! We have to follow Maynard's one true teaching!!" school;

"think for yourselves, question authority"

If there is one definite, asbolute meaning to each and every Tool song, one clearly defined and set in stone world view that is present in all this enigmatic songwriting, how do you know that the man hasn't put it out there specifically so that you can bear witness to it, ponder it, and then say "Hang on a minute, I disagree!"? How do you know that the reason he's upset that people "don't get it" isn't because people try and figure out exactly what the songs mean to HIM and then accept that as all the songs are? If I created art to make people think for themselves, to make them push their own boundaries, I'd be pretty upset if they just sat there and tried to figure out what the art meant to ME and then moved on. I'd feel like I'd wasted a damn lot of time.

[asdf25]

Song is about how Maynard perceives everyone... fans and society in general.. and he's losing patience.

Uses the alien abduction thing.. as a clever way of saying he's the "chosen one" to deliver messages to people...

He's saying... nothing changes in people regardless of what I say.. and it never will. It's a burden trying to help people see or understand... yet I still do it... and nothing ever changes. "Born to bear"... he feels some obligation...

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see." That's Maynard speaking to you. The real point to the song.

"But I forgot my pen" Maynard saying that's our pathetic reply/mentality to what he's offered.. (nothing soaks in with people... rolls off their back)

"Shit the bed again." = we continue to not get it... over and over- regardless how many times he says it.

then Maynard says "Typical...." rather sarcastically.

and we don't know... and won't know...
he's conceding to self that he'll never make a siginificant impact because people just don't get it.

Given all the "one meaning" talk coming from ThreeDeviations in this thread, I feel a need to let you know that you're 100% wrong.

"Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see.
But I forgot my pen."

So it's our alien-abducted protagonist who's "writing it down for all the world to see", yet it's his followers who are in need of a pen? If that's Maynard's "one intended meaning" that we're all idiots for not getting, he sure did try to make it pretty fucking hard for us to decipher; kind of like God putting fossils here to test our faith. Are we all making copies of these revelations by hand? Presumably all of these followers aren't also tripping out of their minds (or however else the song might be interpreted), so couldn't they just remember it and write it down later? Why would the man whose lyrics are scrutinized and obsessed over probably more than anyone else's in the world devote an 11 minute song to how he's not taken seriously enough? Why would he be such an arrogant prick to compare himself in complete seriousness to a messianic prophet, especially with all the "think for yourself, question authority" themes in much of their earlier music? And most of all, why the fuck would he change who's speaking for a single line during the song's climax without giving any real lyrical or musical indication of that intention, when the entire rest of the song is the same protagonist speaking?

I agree that Tool songs generally do have one specific intended meaning. Rosetta Stoned seems more abstract than most, in that on the surface it's simply a story about aliens and drugs. I've read several interesting interpretations, but at this point one of the few things I can say with certainty about this song is that ThreeDeviations' interpretation is completely wrong.

Oh and I also think that Maynard probably doesn't sit around thinking about how the world would be an Eden-like paradise if only people would take him more seriously.

[Lackymacky]

DISCLAIMER:i havent read this entire thread, i will after work, so if i repeat something or include something that was already resolved, dont worry about it, ill edit afterwards.

pilgrim, thats fine if you want to interperet the tool songs, obviously theres nothing wrong with that, but there is pretty much one general ocncept behind each song. theyre not as complex as everyone makes them out to be.

for example: schism about divison
the pot about being hypocritical
parabola about appreciating life
the grudge about letting go of a grudge

i think everyone can agree that those are the main concepts and ideas behind each of those songs. its when people get specific and begin combining things together that things become blurred. i read a post about the pot being hypocritical about a certain court case and one being about the use of drugs. so yeah there are a billion interpretations about what the songs are about but there is pretty much only one general idea behind each song. does that make sense?


thats how i see it anyways

[ThreeDeviations]

DISCLAIMER:i havent read this entire thread, i will after work, so if i repeat something or include something that was already resolved, dont worry about it, ill edit afterwards.

pilgrim, thats fine if you want to interperet the tool songs, obviously theres nothing wrong with that, but there is pretty much one general ocncept behind each song. theyre not as complex as everyone makes them out to be.

for example: schism about divison
the pot about being hypocritical
parabola about appreciating life
the grudge about letting go of a grudge

i think everyone can agree that those are the main concepts and ideas behind each of those songs. its when people get specific and begin combining things together that things become blurred. i read a post about the pot being hypocritical about a certain court case and one being about the use of drugs. so yeah there are a billion interpretations about what the songs are about but there is pretty much only one general idea behind each song. does that make sense?


thats how i see it anyways


Yeah, well said...

with, Rosetta Stoned being about FRUSTRATION....



and ASD, it's completely right.

[BlanketEffect]

Don't argue with him. Three Deviations has a MA in Maynard Interpretism. If anyone in this entire forum is equipped to give us the 100%-straight-out-of-Maynard's-brain-meaning-and-explanation it is definitely Three Deviations.

All of you other jackasses with your own opinions are just wasting your time. Just read Three Deviation's summary and turn your computer off.

[young-pilgrim]

DISCLAIMER:i

pilgrim, thats fine if you want to interperet the tool songs, obviously theres nothing wrong with that, but there is pretty much one general ocncept behind each song. theyre not as complex as everyone makes them out to be.

for example: schism about divison
the pot about being hypocritical
parabola about appreciating life
the grudge about letting go of a grudge


Interpretations of what the obvious themes mean to me really, like anyone. ie I hear Schism I think about a failed relationship of mine. Dig? But I don't sit around trying to cop the exact events that occured in the writer's life that spurred the creation of this song.

[Aunt Acid]

Yeah, well said...

with, Rosetta Stoned being about FRUSTRATION....


Or, ya know... being about a guy who trips on acid, is revealed a message to deliver to the human race by aliens he sees, thinks it's real, forgets the message and is now in a hospital because of complications related to his trip. It's about frustration too, but not only about that.

[BlanketEffect]

Three Deviations, don't worry, I got your back.

Aunt Acid: It's about one thing. I know you're a druggie and so your mind is not as great as our resident prophet of Maynard so try not to squirm too much. One meaning.

Did I do it right, 3D?

[ThreeDeviations]

Yeah, not bad... through all of that thick sarcasm.. what you say is pretty accurate.

Not all drug users are idiots... but most.

Not saying all people are totally clueless on here.. not saying all other opinions other than mine are just wrong or worthless...

there are some people with some neat interpretations... some actual legitimate possibilities. but if you're going to come on here and talk about how a song's meaning is about anal sex... or it's solely about some drug trip... or if ya don't trip, ya can't really appreciate the music... or, "wow, I see Tool in a whole different light now that I listened to Aenima on shrooms dude!"

You're damn right I am going to have a fuck off attitude.

and

If you mosh at a Tool show... I am going to think you're an idiot. That's just how it is.

Some people really have better ideas than others... some opinions are actually right.
sure, ya can get anal or PC and say.. "oh, it's all in the eye of the beholder" and blah blah.. and that's true to a degree.. you can personalize the song and tweak it to fit your own reality as long as you don't deviate far from the actual original meaning/intent of the song.

as far as what you said, "if anyone is equipped to give us the straight out of maynard's brain meaning and explanation it's definitely Three Deviations." I won't shy away from that either. Do it. Read em all. Then tell me what I said isn't credible. You'll actually be a lot more apt to consider what I say this song is saying to you..
Is everything exact in my threads or posts? No. But as far as the core meaning(s) of these songs... you're going to be very hard pressed to find someone who sheds light on the meaning/intent/general idea as well as I do. That's just how it is.. like it or not.

so blanket, you can get all cranky and make sarcastic posts if you'd like..
you can sit back and say how everything is nothing.. and nothing is everything.. and trip on your daily K. It's cool.

I am not getting caught up in all the peripheral bullshit anymore on here...

because most people don't get it and they never will --- regardless.

which just happens to be Rosetta Stoned's core meaning too...

Hi!