Monkeys and Thumbs

[infamia]

I don’t know if anyone has posted this, but have you realized how the Basic difference between a monkey and a human are the thumbs. Opposable thumbs are responsible for all of our intellectual evolution, thus distinguishing us from monkeys. So basically if you put thumbs on a monkey you get a human. I’m just having random thoughts here…

Monkey + Thumb = Human

[moneyisevil]

yeah duh we're just evolutionized monkeys...we're not some great species created by god or anything like that...dna's goal is to evolve and survive....thus we have us<insert monkey noises here>

[infamia]

I guess what I’m trying to point out is the thumbs part…

[dude3390]

I don’t know if anyone has posted this, but have you realized how the Basic difference between a monkey and a human are the thumbs. Opposable thumbs are responsible for all of our intellectual evolution, thus distinguishing us from monkeys. So basically if you put thumbs on a monkey you get a human. I’m just having random thoughts here…

Monkey + Thumb = Human

but, but, but...

if that's true, then why aren't there any monkeys posting on this forum, all set up with their thumb-free keyboards?

because they wouldn't have anything insightful to say. seems like there's a hole in that theory

monkey + thumb + advanced brain= human, methinks

[DeadMoney]

I don’t know if anyone has posted this, but have you realized how the Basic difference between a monkey and a human are the thumbs. Opposable thumbs are responsible for all of our intellectual evolution, thus distinguishing us from monkeys. So basically if you put thumbs on a monkey you get a human. I’m just having random thoughts here…

Monkey + Thumb = Human

Interesting, except that most monkey's do have opposable thumbs, some even have opposable toes... so are we the primates?

"Many monkeys have opposable thumbs and opposable big toes, which can be closed against the other fingers or toes to create a tight grip."

People need to research...

[infamia]

Interesting, except that most monkey's do have opposable thumbs, some even have opposable toes... so are we the primates?

"Many monkeys have opposable thumbs and opposable big toes, which can be closed against the other fingers or toes to create a tight grip."

People need to research...

i had not relised that, i guesss my theory has some holes... but it is a fact that the thumb is responsible for our intelectual capabilities

[blood_wh0re]

please explain your theory....how is The Thumb and not The Brain responsible for our intelctual capabilities? out of curiousity....

[dcastillo]

I wonder about the chemical relationship our ancestors, be them monkeys or humanoid whatevers, they encountered that led to the creation of our civilization. Worshipping gods and creating art and learning to have emotions that are beyond the primitive innate drive to survive. Chemicals are an everyday part of our life, whether it be the caffeine in coffee or soda or birth control pills, or even those so-called happy pills that can make us sad people better. Is it symbiance or are we ruled by the same drugs that gave us the power to create things greater then ourselves? I believe the answer may be a little of both. There are probably great minds that are able to 'see through' the visions to gain insight (and possibly prophecy) about the world, time, space, and nature on other levels. Are there are any shamen left today?

[identitat soldat]

Our dexterity had a lot to do with our dominance of the planet. In the earlier days our ability to use our fingers so precicesly (not just thumbs) better than any other animal is what allowed us to craft tools and weapons and such. Having such dexterity is most likely what stimulated our brains to grow to such a size in the first place.

[Melanos]

i thought using forks and spoons is what gave us our intellect! omg i need to go to wikipedia.com/ the faq of this page to find out the "true" meaning of this stuff :(

[jnx]

i had not relised that, i guesss my theory has some holes... but it is a fact that the thumb is responsible for our intelectual capabilities

I can't explain why or in anyway - But when I read your theory I just agree. It seems right. The thumb has been a 'leading finger' in all of humans creations. Making us able to as mentioned before creating things larger than ourselves and life itself.

[whitewater]

i had not relised that, i guesss my theory has some holes... but it is a fact that the thumb is responsible for our intelectual capabilities

Noooooo. Our diet and a change in it was responsible for the evolution of the human brain. I'll be honest and say that I don't remember exactly what the theory is, but I'm sure if you do a google search you could come up with it.

[Jimmeny]

Sigh, another post to add to the 'stupid' list. 'Monkeys don't have opposable thumbs'. lolol

It's true that the opposable thumb had a great deal to do with our evolution. It's not true that thumbs are what make us more intelligent than monkeys. What kind of theory is this anyway? You can't really make fundamentally incorrect sweeping statements about evolution when you haven't even bothered to look up any of the stuff you've talked about.

[Thom]

Actually it is us starting to walk on two legs that has given us such an evolutionary advantage thing.
It costs a lot less energy to walk on two than on four legs, which leaves more energy for mating and such.

[swampyfool]

I believe that the differnce betwwen human and monkey began when some monkeys looked around their surroundings and realized, "Earth sucks." The smarter monkeys in this group began tackling the question, "Why does Earth suck?" Hence, was philosophy born. The dumber monkeys of the group, unable to wrap their minds around such an enigma, made up Gods to blame instead. Hence, was religion born, and it's all been downhill since then . . .

[MisterMudd]

Noooooo. Our diet and a change in it was responsible for the evolution of the human brain. I'll be honest and say that I don't remember exactly what the theory is, but I'm sure if you do a google search you could come up with it.

The change in diet was that we started eating meat, and taking in more protien, thus allowing the human brain to grow bigger.

[tomhet]

The change in diet was that we started eating meat, and taking in more protien, thus allowing the human brain to grow bigger.

Very true, I was gonna say that.

What an idiotic thread, by the way.

[HallsOfMandos]

I hope you all understand that even experts in the study of human evolution are not agreed as to what trait is responsible for our intellectual evolution. As many have pointed out, some believe it to be upright walking that is the root cause, others believe it was a larger brain or the use of language that was the catalyst. For alternate ideas on this please read "The Story of B' by Daniel Quinn - the basic premise is that storytelling (i.e. the ability to construct a scene based on evidence such as animal tracks, waste, etc) played a major role if not the crucial role in our intellectual growth as early humans. Much of Daniel Quinn's work, in fact, deals with re-evaluating the story of how we came to be where we are that we as a culture tend to accept on pure faith with little or no evidence.

Great reads if you haven't read them yet. Try these at least:

1. Ishmael
2. Story of B
3. My Ishmael
4. Beyond Civilization

[swampyfool]

I hope you all understand that even experts in the study of human evolution are not agreed as to what trait is responsible for our intellectual evolution. As many have pointed out, some believe it to be upright walking that is the root cause, others believe it was a larger brain or the use of language that was the catalyst. For alternate ideas on this please read "The Story of B' by Daniel Quinn - the basic premise is that storytelling (i.e. the ability to construct a scene based on evidence such as animal tracks, waste, etc) played a major role if not the crucial role in our intellectual growth as early humans. Much of Daniel Quinn's work, in fact, deals with re-evaluating the story of how we came to be where we are that we as a culture tend to accept on pure faith with little or no evidence.

Great reads if you haven't read them yet. Try these at least:

1. Ishmael
2. Story of B
3. My Ishmael
4. Beyond Civilization
Good call. Also, vist the Ishmael community at Ishmael.org.

[neutered]

Some of the "theories" presented in this thread are absolutley retarded. There's no one single factor that led to increased intelligence in humans. Please read (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465053130/sr=8-1/qid=1148778141/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1812915-7957743?%5Fencoding=UTF8) about human evolution

[HallsOfMandos]

Can you not be more constructive? Call everyone 'retarded' and suggest one book to prove a point? How about at least give us the gist of what we can expect to learn from this book. Or, did you just go to amazon.com and type in 'human evolution' in the search box and paste the link here?

[infamia]

I can't explain why or in anyway - But when I read your theory I just agree. It seems right. The thumb has been a 'leading finger' in all of humans creations. Making us able to as mentioned before creating things larger than ourselves and life itself.
thats what i had in mind

[neutered]

Ok sure, I just think it would help if people read more before putting forward the idea that "the basic difference" b/w humans and monkeys is thumbs. That's a book I own & have read & think would be a good start, by a famous anthropologist. I didn't write more cos people tend to overlook long posts I've found, and this is a broad topic. Besides, what's really more effective: reading directly from a reputable source or from someone on an internet forum whose credentials you don't know? Anyway, I'll try & summarize it as best I can although by no means will this be all-inclusive:

We're talking about evolution from monkeys over a period of millions of years. The changes that have made us human and increased our intelligence are multifacted & usually interrelated. The last common ancestor b/w chimpanzees & humans was aprx 6-7 million years ago (abbreviation: mya). The first footprints (fossilized evidence of bipedalism, walking upright) is dated to about 4mya w/Australopithecus (a hominid precursor that had a combination of primitive monkey-like traits & more derived traits). This initial bipedalism would have definitely been different than the way chimps walk, but it was not the same way modern humans walk. To say that bipedalism caused humans to increase in intelligence is incorrect; it certainly did to some degree but not in and of itself. There were major changes in the structure of the pelvis and bones of the legs before we arrived at the type of modern walking (& it did not necessarily 'require less energy' like someone said; there was a whole change in the cener of gravity in the hips & this also relates to abilities for childbirth b.c of the birth canal).

So walking upright was definitely important, but this predated the expansion of brain size, which started b/w 2-3mya. Like someone said, changes in diet played a major role in this, and evidence of increased meat-eating becomes even stronger as time progresses (b/w 1-2mya). Humans are unique in that there's a secondary period of development in the first years or so after birth where rapid brain growth is achieved; this is related again to pelvis size b/c w/increasingly large brain sizes, there's only so much that can fit thru the birth canal. It would have been kind of like a loop: Higher quality diet (more protein/fat; we need high amounts of these b/c we have such a large brain with respect to body size) --> more complex foraging behviors --> increased energy availability --> larger brain --> back to beginning

All the while, we're still not "humans" at all but rather ancestors in the H o m o genus like H. erectus, for example. The increased brain size is arguably the beginning of our genus. Although we have larger brain sizes, at this point it's still not in the range of moderns, and we're still using primitive stone tools. A major advance in tool-making occurs about the same time as the origins of modern (anatomically) humans (not necessarily related) about 200 thousand years ago. Art and cultural artifacts, generally accepted to be evidence of fully modern humans (culturally) don't appear for about another 170K yrs. This part is the most fascinating to me, since we had a major paradigm shift & began having art, spoken language, etc. That's a whole other post I could go into, though.

That's my evolution in a nutshell rant. There would have been countless selective pressures over millions of years that led to the increased intelligence we see today. I don't know if this helps at all but I tried

[hushypushy]

hmm, infamia, you need to take a basic "history of life" class, or something. monkeys arent just humans without thumbs, i mean besides the fact that monkeys (and apes and chimps) do have opposable thumbs, there are many other differences.

new world monkeys (basically, ones not from africa) have prehensile tales, whereas we dont. humans have incredibly reduced sexual dimorphism compared to apes (in other words, human male and females are pretty much the same size. look at gorillas, and the males are MUCH larger). monkey heads are completely different, with the shape of the foreheads and such, the sagittal crest is much more pronounced on apes because they have large muscles attached from there to their jaw so they can chew more things; they only eat vegetables, whereas humans are omnivorous.

honestly, i could go on for a lot longer, but to sum it up, humans and apes/chimps/monkeys are MUCH more different than "stick a thumb on it". neutered, you basically wrapped it up too with that short evolution spiel. however, i disagree with your assessment that larger brain sizes came before stone tools. H. habilis (the handyman) came before h.erectus, and had a very small brain---but still used tools (hence the name).

[neutered]

however, i disagree with your assessment that larger brain sizes came before stone tools. H. habilis (the handyman) came before h.erectus, and had a very small brain---but still used tools (hence the name).
hey it's nice to see someone else who knows something about primate evolution. I guess you're right in terms of tools pre-dating increased brain size (truly increased brain size comparable to ranges of modern populations). I articulated it poorly. The first stone tools were ~2.6mya & is when H. habilis was around. But I busted out that Leakey book I linked in my prior post when I was typing that up & there's a diagram that shows "origin of brain expansion" being just before these earliest stone tools. However, this is just the origin, and H. habilis still had a small brain compared to his descendents; encephalization/cranial capacity increased as time went on. I'm glad you mentioned the New World/Old World differences (I wasn't sure how far back I should go & just decided to start w/the human-chimp divergence)

[æmoeba•°·.]

hmm....

[swampyfool]

the metaphor of this song is completely obvious as well.
The following metaphor for your brain power is also obvious:



That's all.

[æmoeba•°·.]

The following metaphor for your brain power is also obvious:



That's all.


How irrelavant can you get?¿ -.-

[hushypushy]

neutered: yeah, you could go back extremely far down to the beginning of mammals and hominoids and such, but i dont think that anyone on these forums really cares, nor does it relate much to this song :p

to be honest, i think in the context of these lyrics, monkeys simply means human beings, but kind of with a negative connotation, if that makes sense.

[swampyfool]

First you post this statement:

the metaphor of this song is completely obvious as well.
which I find to be singularly, closed-minded. The only people to whom these metaphors are obvious would be the members of Tool, and anyone to whom they have chosen to elaborate such metaphors. Even after the lyrics are engraved in stone (released by the band- which may take quite some time) the metaphorical implications will still fail to be obvious- as one set of words can eight different meanings to eight different people (and they could all be right). S in protest, I posted this:

The following metaphor for your brain power is also obvious:



That's all.
which was definitely relevant at the time. No metaphor=No brain power. So then, you edit away your statement at 1:44 AM, and then post this at 1:45:
How irrelavant can you get?¿ -.-
which I guess proves me somewhat wrong. You must have at least soem brain power to attempt such a deception, but not much.

[Crucify the Ego]

Burn!

[smeefsmeef]

If you gave Angelina Jolie monkey thumbs she would't look like a monkey and vice versa. Monkeys + Human Thumbs = Monkeys with strange thumbs.

[hushypushy]

yeah, well i'd still hit that anyway

[swampyfool]

If you gave Angelina Jolie monkey thumbs she would't look like a monkey and vice versa. Monkeys + Human Thumbs = Monkeys with strange thumbs.
Funny. Well put.

[swampyfool]

yeah, well i'd still hit that anyway
Funnier. Better put.

[holymackerel]

hmm, infamia, you need to take a basic "history of life" class, or something. monkeys arent just humans without thumbs, i mean besides the fact that monkeys (and apes and chimps) do have opposable thumbs, there are many other differences.

new world monkeys (basically, ones not from africa) have prehensile tales, whereas we dont. humans have incredibly reduced sexual dimorphism compared to apes (in other words, human male and females are pretty much the same size. look at gorillas, and the males are MUCH larger). monkey heads are completely different, with the shape of the foreheads and such, the sagittal crest is much more pronounced on apes because they have large muscles attached from there to their jaw so they can chew more things; they only eat vegetables, whereas humans are omnivorous.

honestly, i could go on for a lot longer, but to sum it up, humans and apes/chimps/monkeys are MUCH more different than "stick a thumb on it". neutered, you basically wrapped it up too with that short evolution spiel. however, i disagree with your assessment that larger brain sizes came before stone tools. H. habilis (the handyman) came before h.erectus, and had a very small brain---but still used tools (hence the name).

i think you're just another internet bully with a bunch of stupid facts that don't mean nothing...it's pretty obvious that monkeys differ from man in that we have thumbs...you're just angry that you didn't point that out first. maybe you have your THUMB up your A$$!

[HallsOfMandos]

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20050922/wdip0923/monkey.jpg

now shut up - monkeys have thumbs.

and here is how they use them...(chimpanzees anyway)
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb//anthro2003/origins/hominid_journey/optional3.html
http://www.snprc.org/chimp/faq/chimplife1/termite-feeder-02.jpg

[hushypushy]

i think you're just another internet bully with a bunch of stupid facts that don't mean nothing...it's pretty obvious that monkeys differ from man in that we have thumbs...you're just angry that you didn't point that out first. maybe you have your THUMB up your A$$!

EW WHO IS THAT UGLY BITCH IN YOUR AVATAR? IS IT YOU, YOU UGLY BITCH? YOUR FACE IS WEIRD COLORSSS

oh wait my caps lock was stuck....so um....hey, you wanna go grab a beer or something?

[holymackerel]

EW WHO IS THAT UGLY BITCH IN YOUR AVATAR? IS IT YOU, YOU UGLY BITCH? YOUR FACE IS WEIRD COLORSSS

oh wait my caps lock was broken....so um....hey, you wanna go grab a beer or something?

YOUR WEIRD COLORSSS AND MY CAPS IS JUST FINE I'M USING IT TO YELL AT YOUR ASS HOLE MAN

I DONT DRINK BEER I'M TOO GOOD FOR ALCOHOLZ

DREAM ON YOU'LL NEVER BE WITH A GIRL LIKE ME

[HallsOfMandos]

DREAM ON YOU'LL NEVER BE WITH A GIRL LIKE ME

I can only hope to be so lucky...

You do realize that your entire statement (about monkeys not having thumbs) is 100% incorrect and therefore the only truly viable target of all your angst and CAPS LOCKiness is yourself. Have a pleasant day.

[hushypushy]

that's ok, i hope everyone realizes that we know each other and he is just being a jackass....

have a good day everyone, i hope you enjoyed that bit of spam

[Luosdasa]

i thought the thumb was the reason we were able to put our advanced brains and knowledge to use, i mean to make things. Thumbs are the difference between us and dolphins, not the difference between us and monkeys...
(btw, dolphins have easily got it right, all they do is swim, play, eat, and fuck (yes, dolphins r the only other creature, apparently, who have sex for fun), while we humans buisly set about killing ourselves and screwing up the world, so we are able to spend more time playing, eating and fucking... i think we have come a long way to do so much to go so far backwards.)

[Ertai]

stick your finger up your ass

[Ming]

YOUR WEIRD COLORSSS AND MY CAPS IS JUST FINE I'M USING IT TO YELL AT YOUR ASS HOLE MAN

I DONT DRINK BEER I'M TOO GOOD FOR ALCOHOLZ

DREAM ON YOU'LL NEVER BE WITH A GIRL LIKE ME

No need to be a total [removed the word cunt]. (hey it was before my morning coffee)

[Ming]

I wrote a song about 10 years back called HomoErectus with the idea that people would be more prone to objectivity if they weren't the subject. To me it's pretty obvious "Silly monkeys" is intended to push us back from our anthropocentric point of view for two seconds, as in "yeh those silly circus monkeys." Perry Ferrell put out a song a few years ago called "Pets" which employed a similar device. Hell, Planet of the Apes was completely based around this species role reversal and was quite effective.

I have a cheap 4 track recording of this song somewhere I'll bust up on the internet someday. I can't even remember most of the lyrics but part of the chorus was

****-Erectus
faith wont protect us
will mother nature finally reject us

In a short time look at all we've done
I think it's time.. to pack the ship and run.

[philipg]

monkeys might become as smart as us if they took psychedlic mushrooms
we're the only species that practices mind expansion, the only species that stops and questions our motives and purposes and thus are able to better ourselves.
animals dont think about where they came from, or where theyre going.
and the point im trying to make here is....ummm...wisconsin sucks.

[ArizonaBay]

Was looking for the "evolution didnt end with us growing thumbs" bill hicks quote and found this...

"Another influence in Bill's life was the psychologist, Carl Gustav Jung. It seemed that Bill genuinely believed that humans are still evolving. The next stage in our evolution, he believed, was a spiritual one. "folks, it's time to evolve ideas. we.. you know, evolution did not end with us growing thumbs. you do know that, right? it didn't end there. we're at the point now where we... we're going to have to evolve ideas. the reason the world is so fucked up is because we're undergoing evolution, and the reason our institutions, our traditional religions are all crumbling is because they're no longer relevant." His belief, "we are all one consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively", is quite a profound idea. (If you want to explore this idea further, I recommend the book, The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot). Hicks believed that we can help the evolutionary process by way of raising the level of the collective unconscious (Jung's term for the level of the human psyche that contains content inherited from others (manifested through cultural myth)). "The collective unconscious contains the whole spiritual heritage of mankind's evolution, born anew in the brain structure of every individual."[The Structure of the Psyche," Collected Works 8, par. 342.] (Interestingly, the idea of the "whole within the part", also ties back to "The Holographic Universe". Read it - it's good!"

[jonboy]

Actually it is us starting to walk on two legs that has given us such an evolutionary advantage thing.
It costs a lot less energy to walk on two than on four legs, which leaves more energy for mating and such.

Actually we started walking on two legs as to have a smaller surface area that the sun would shine on, therefore could survive in a hotter environment (africa).

[monkeyintheworld]

We evolved from monkeys ?!?!?! LMAO I think I'll go cut my thumbs off if I lend my thinking to that bullshit. We are first light beings, if anything we have devolved from our original ancestors (not talking about fucking cavemen btw) our ancestors of which there is no recorded history of . We are in a process of re-evolving & will soon make the next leap in 'true' human evolution. Quit fucking believing what they have tried to (& with some have obviously suceeded ) conditioned us to believe. Maybe in the eyes of 'angels ' we look like a bunch of jackass monkeys never content with what we have , willing to 'beat our brother down' to have one up on 'the Jones's' (sp?) , we impusively act with no thought of will , ryhme or reason to be better than the next . We have destroyed the gifts that the divine has blessed us with ., 'free will' & 'reason' & have replaced them with an insatiable lust to have more & more & more never being satisfied at any one point with what we have is really more than we ever need (this being within us & outside of us) . Most of us are no longer awake & aware of that around us & what is being done to us . Most have lost their free will to think 'outside the box' & strip the layers away & see things for what they truly are. Most are content to no longer question the ways , ideas, theories , etc that we are being forcefully conditioned to believe & think. They say we only use about 10% of our brains, I'm pretty sure now they have theorized it's more like 1-2% imagine if we awaken & become aware of the other 98+%

You know monkeys stick their 'thumbs' up their ass & like to play with their shit ?!?! With that being said I'm off to play with them baby ruth's in my toilet

[monkeyintheworld]

Was looking for the "evolution didnt end with us growing thumbs" bill hicks quote and found this...

"Another influence in Bill's life was the psychologist, Carl Gustav Jung. It seemed that Bill genuinely believed that humans are still evolving. The next stage in our evolution, he believed, was a spiritual one. "folks, it's time to evolve ideas. we.. you know, evolution did not end with us growing thumbs. you do know that, right? it didn't end there. we're at the point now where we... we're going to have to evolve ideas. the reason the world is so fucked up is because we're undergoing evolution, and the reason our institutions, our traditional religions are all crumbling is because they're no longer relevant." His belief, "we are all one consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively", is quite a profound idea. (If you want to explore this idea further, I recommend the book, The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot). Hicks believed that we can help the evolutionary process by way of raising the level of the collective unconscious (Jung's term for the level of the human psyche that contains content inherited from others (manifested through cultural myth)). "The collective unconscious contains the whole spiritual heritage of mankind's evolution, born anew in the brain structure of every individual."[The Structure of the Psyche," Collected Works 8, par. 342.] (Interestingly, the idea of the "whole within the part", also ties back to "The Holographic Universe". Read it - it's good!"



:D

The Holographic Universe is very good .

[jonboy]

We evolved from monkeys ?!?!?! LMAO I think I'll go cut my thumbs off if I lend my thinking to that bullshit. We are first light beings, if anything we have devolved from our original ancestors (not talking about fucking cavemen btw) our ancestors of which there is no recorded history of .

Sorry, I think I would need proof of that to believe. At least with evolution we have empiracle evidence.

[Convoy_X]

yeah duh we're just evolutionized monkeys...we're not some great species created by god or anything like that...dna's goal is to evolve and survive....thus we have us<insert monkey noises here>

Sorry that’s not 100% correct modern monkeys are just as evolved as humans and any other life form on Earth. Nothing on this Earth is new we have all been here for the same amount of time (more or less) and we all evolve at the same rate.