Angels on the sideline again?

[subtlefury]

The line that puzzles me a bit is

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

Now i know that MJK is 99% referring to the people (monkeys) as the one blessed with reason and choosing to do insane things, but a part of me links that to the angels staying on the sideline.

I mean - WHY do they stay there just doing nothing?

and the (almost) last line

Angels on the sideline again,
Been so long with patience and reason. /i'm absolutely sure i hear "been so long"/
Angels on the sideline again,
Wondering where this tug of war will end.

So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?

My thought is maybe MJK is criticizing them too, not like some of you think - teaming with them and looking from the sideline.

[Muladhara]

Damn good thought.

He's criticising those who stand aside and criticise instead of doing something to stop it as well as the fighting monkeys.

[Dirty_doris]

I dont think it means that. We have always been told we all have free will to do what we want, we are not controlled by "God". I think he is meaning that there are angles on the sideline again, watching us, seeing what we are doing and how stupid we are using our free will to destroy ourselves. And maybe MJK annoyed at the fact that we arnt getting the help from those on the sideline?? thats if it is taking a spiritual side again, however im not sure if this is all spiritual.

[josh]

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

i think the first two lines refer to the angels and then next two refer back to the monkeys. its obivous that angels would be confused with our behaviour. i don't know if maynard is angry at the angels as well. he could be. good thread.

[Pierre-Paul]

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

What if the last two line actualy refered to the angles rather than the monkeys? It would be coherent with subtlefury's interpretation. "So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?" I think Maynard is also angry at the angels. The angels being all those people who say how humanity sucks and don't do anything to change things.

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

i want to write a post in here about a book called "knowledge of angels" by Jill Paton Walsh.The book deals with theme of innocence, tolerance, doubt, faith and the like.

This passage refers the the titualar knowledge of angels

``That knowledge is called morning knowledge by which an angel knows the things that are to be created, things as they ought to be --- knowledge, for example, of the nature of a straight line. Evening knowledge is that by which things are known in their own nature, as knowing that no line in the world is really straight. There is a problem over the knowledge of angels.''

With a little surge of affection, Severo indulged him. ``Explain the problem,'' he said.

``In angels, is there any difference between morning and evening knowledge?'' Benedix said. ``There are shadows in the morning and in the evening. In an angelic intellect, however, there are no shadows, for angels are very bright mirrors. ...''


If you do a bit of research on this book maybe u can see what i am trying to say.

how about starting here :
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/knowledge-of-angels/

and here:
http://home.clara.net/stevebrown/html/knowledge_of_angels_index.htm

and possibly eve here:
http://www.polkadotmittens.co.uk/books/angels.html

I beleive that this book is ont he same lines as the songs, especially when it comes to what is refered to as "Morning knowledge" and "evening knowledge" and the role of the angels who are observing.

[Leandrenos]

Angels will stay on the sideline because god promised never to intervine with earth again he celebrated that ocasion with a rainbow.....

[Pughwe]

Gosh have you guys not seen the movie constantine? With the angels....yeah i am sorry i haven't seen that entire movie either....so i don't know where i was going with that.

[LEARN.2.SWiM]

i think the angels are the spectators, commenting on the 'silly monkeys', as you would with your friends when you watch two people fight

[bl4kout]

In the bible God doesn't share as much information with the Angels as he does with humans, the Angels really don't know much about us and our wars about religion and what not. Angels are controlled by Gods will, thats why they are on the sidelines. I think Maynard is just trying to show our world and the way we are from another perspective.

[defjuxie]

remember the movie the prophecy? Archangel Gabriel is the leader of a rebellion opposed to God's favor of humans over angels and he refers to humans as "monkeys". neat flick anyway.

peace

[jarlaxle]

I wonder if the Angel picture in the Aenima insert has anything to do with this song, or vice versa? 2 angels watching the train wreck of humanity, maybe? Could be a stretch, but I think i hear "Two Angels on the sideline again" in the song.

[nfinaT]

Maynard is able to observe these monkeys and note their saddening choices. So he is in a sense an angel, benched in large part because this isn't his dispute (assuming it's primarily directed at the war over the holy land) and he can't insinuate himself into ALL mankinds thought processes (only discerning Tool fans').

Obvioulsy he isn't condemning all men's ability to live sensible, loving lives but instead commenting on monkey mentality versus angelic mentality of men, cultures, and subcultures. I think he's also turning an eye to heaven (noted in my post in the lyric's thread).

[subtlefury]

Gosh have you guys not seen the movie constantine? With the angels....yeah i am sorry i haven't seen that entire movie either....so i don't know where i was going with that.

you'vew got a point there... ;)

[HallsOfMandos]

An interesting idea to note...if you buy into all that 'Paradise Lost' story about the fall of satan, etc is that here we have a group of angels sitting around and contemplating why we wage war on each other, etc, yet they themselves, at one time, divided right in two and waged war in heaven, so in a way they are being hypocritical in directing their pity at us as they are guilty of the same crime, albeit only once whereas we are repeat offenders. I dont think this changes the entire nature of what we should take away from hearing this song, but it certainly adds a little more depth to it.

[SHIV]

He's criticising those who stand aside and criticise instead of doing something to stop it as well as the fighting monkeys.

I like this idea.
Not EVERYTHING has to be literal, people.

[subtlefury]

I like this idea.
Not EVERYTHING has to be literal, people.

...especially when we have Tool in mind.


yet they themselves, at one time, divided right in two and waged war in heaven, so in a way they are being hypocritical in directing their pity at us as they are guilty of the same crime, albeit only once whereas we are repeat offenders.

good one! i hadn't thought about that, you're absolutely right

[Melanos]

How can the angels do anything? God gave us FREEWILL, if the angels or god ever interferred with the humans right to choose then the shit would hit the fan. I mean ( and please work with me here) God created everything from words spoken,"let there be light" and so on... so for God to take back his word would mean that God has flaws and that just cant be true, otherwise the universe wouldnt be able to work in harmony. Any thoughts? or am i completly wrong here?

[rjcarter]

In the bible God doesn't share as much information with the Angels as he does with humans, the Angels really don't know much about us and our wars about religion and what not. Angels are controlled by Gods will, thats why they are on the sidelines. I think Maynard is just trying to show our world and the way we are from another perspective.
I must ask how you came up with this assumption? If you know the bible then you should know what Hebrews 13:1 & 2 says about angels. I know most of you people on here are athiests or of that nature, but this is just to try and change the perspective on angels. Verse one says "Let brotherly love continue" and verse two says "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Which would conclude that angels walk among us and we dont know it. Not because they are invisible, if they were, how would we show brotherly love towards them? So obviously they dont have wings either. They look just like regular people. I will agree with most of you in saying that we have more freedom than angels. The main purpose of the angels were to serve God. We have the choice to even believe in God or not to. Thats why i think when MJK says "father blessed them all with reason, and this is what they choose" That line is what the angels think about us, because they never got a choice and here we are with everything we could ever want. Society moves so fast and just take things for granted, never really appreciating what we have been given.
Food for thought. Not downing anyones beliefs!

[bismillahNO]

The line that puzzles me a bit is

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

Now i know that MJK is 99% referring to the people (monkeys) as the one blessed with reason and choosing to do insane things, but a part of me links that to the angels staying on the sideline.

I mean - WHY do they stay there just doing nothing?

and the (almost) last line

Angels on the sideline again,
Been so long with patience and reason. /i'm absolutely sure i hear "been so long"/
Angels on the sideline again,
Wondering where this tug of war will end.

So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?

My thought is maybe MJK is criticizing them too, not like some of you think - teaming with them and looking from the sideline.


I think the line may be .... 'angels on the sideline again....BENCH OF LOVE & PATIENCE & REASON...' .... as in sitting on, the bench on the sideline. When one plays a sport and is on the bench, on the sideline, they are very limited in what they can do as an influence. Cheer or Jeer & observe until it is their time to enter the game...........

[fulmination]

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

What if the last two line actualy refered to the angles rather than the monkeys? It would be coherent with subtlefury's interpretation. "So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?" I think Maynard is also angry at the angels. The angels being all those people who say how humanity sucks and don't do anything to change things.
I agree. I think it's angry at those of us who bitch, whine and complain but don't want to get up and change our situation which would tie in with what some other people have been saying on here about "Right In Two" being a "warning for those who do not" choose to listen.

[Opiate_Mass]

The line that puzzles me a bit is

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

Now i know that MJK is 99% referring to the people (monkeys) as the one blessed with reason and choosing to do insane things, but a part of me links that to the angels staying on the sideline.

I mean - WHY do they stay there just doing nothing?

and the (almost) last line

Angels on the sideline again,
Been so long with patience and reason. /i'm absolutely sure i hear "been so long"/
Angels on the sideline again,
Wondering where this tug of war will end.

So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?

My thought is maybe MJK is criticizing them too, not like some of you think - teaming with them and looking from the sideline.
HOW THE FUCK DID YOU GET RED WRITING?

[Opiate_Mass]

How can the angels do anything? God gave us FREEWILL, if the angels or god ever interferred with the humans right to choose then the shit would hit the fan. I mean ( and please work with me here) God created everything from words spoken,"let there be light" and so on... so for God to take back his word would mean that God has flaws and that just cant be true, otherwise the universe wouldnt be able to work in harmony. Any thoughts? or am i completly wrong here?
CHURCHIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Melanos]

Heh... sry ive read the king james version of the bible (i think it is like the 100th interpretation actually) and the Gita... working on the Koran at the moment. Yeah so i apoligize for trying to become more knowledgeable on religeons. Oh yeah, i've read the satanic bible too. Need more Jung material to gnaw on, only read one of his books and it was so long ago i barely remember it :(

[wags]

CHURCHIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for real dude, don't attack without basis here.

[tomhet]

Have you ever thought that the angels could be other thing than angels literally? The mildly interesting thing about this song (don't get me wrong, I abhor it in any way, one of their worst songs ever IMO) is that Maynard put two extremes together - the angel and the monkey. Those two extremes could constitute a single human being, capable of the best and the worst acts. Those two extremes cannot conciliate and this contradiction is the fundament of the human condition. I think overanalyzing this angel thing could lead to erroneous interpretations.

[Melanos]

Well i know that when my body gives way I wont "die". I think we are spiritual beings having a Human experiance.... not a Human being having Spiritual experiances.

[subtlefury]

Have you ever thought that the angels could be other thing than angels literally? The mildly interesting thing about this song (don't get me wrong, I abhor it in any way, one of their worst songs ever IMO) is that Maynard put two extremes together - the angel and the monkey. Those two extremes could constitute a single human being, capable of the best and the worst acts. Those two extremes cannot conciliate and this contradiction is the fundament of the human condition. I think overanalyzing this angel thing could lead to erroneous interpretations.

I agree, that was just an idea and i changed my opinion about Right in Two since then. Now i think it indeed is about the duality of mankind, and also amessage of warning if we don't come in terms with it and keep cutting everything right in two. I've covered it more in paraflux's The fluxerpretation of 10,000 Days (http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=46306&page=11), here's a quote:

[Right in Two] As paraflux said - the saddest song on the album. Not because it expresses tragedy and mourning as the Wings / 10k, but because imo it conveys complete and utter passiveness. It says that angels just stay on the sideline watching, while monkeys keep clubbing each other to death without reason. And this SHIT happens over and over again…

And the things is - it is only natural to happen so, we’re still just dumb animals after all, and “where there’s one we’re bound to divide it in two”. That’s the way it happens in nature, I think it was AMF who gave the division of cells as an example. And until we learn that there is duality everywhere, and that each thing has two different aspects, and stop fucking separating them and dividing everything in black and white, until we start keeping balance, well we won’t be able to move on. We won’t ever ride on the spiral, but in a full circle infinitely instead.



I also hear now (finally!) "benched along with patience and reason" instead of "been so long with patience and reason" and to me it links with the "credulous at best you desire to believe angels in the hearts of men" line from Vicarious - we are fools to believe that those "angels" in our hearts will act on their own, we have just put them aside with our patience and reason and kill each other like simple animals.

[subtlefury]

HOW THE FUCK DID YOU GET RED WRITING?

there's one really easy way to see how i got it, let's see if you can figure it out on your own ;]

[Huff]

I like this idea.
Not EVERYTHING has to be literal, people.

This is a really good point.

Why can't it be a relatively simple concept like Maynard is upset about the passivity that most people exhibit.

I too am super-jealous about peole knowing how to do different colours on here!!!! Is it HTML??

[Huff]

<span class="highlight">Test</span>

[Huff]

Shit!!! Had to try it sorry:):):)

[theprosperone]

The line that puzzles me a bit is

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

Now i know that MJK is 99% referring to the people (monkeys) as the one blessed with reason and choosing to do insane things, but a part of me links that to the angels staying on the sideline.

I mean - WHY do they stay there just doing nothing?

and the (almost) last line

Angels on the sideline again,
Been so long with patience and reason. /i'm absolutely sure i hear "been so long"/
Angels on the sideline again,
Wondering where this tug of war will end.

So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?

My thought is maybe MJK is criticizing them too, not like some of you think - teaming with them and looking from the sideline.

Its because they are baffled and confused. Its like a parent standing by watching their children eat cheerios off the floor. They are in awe that the fuckin kid was able to climb up into the cabinet and get the cheerios, they are baffled at the situation and dumbfounded as to what to do.

[TurdEye13]

this is deep

[æmoeba•°·.]

Deep into the thread. That is all! Calculate what you will.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................... ... . ... ..... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...


we will not tolerate.......................................... ..............................................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..•°·§.

[offspring]

A good point you mention!
Sure the angels were not supposed to be 100% good. If MJK wanted them to be the ones we can look up to, he would have let them do something for it.
But they just stand their, confused (so they're not omniscient!) and wondering what God has done to the people.

Furthermore they don't criticize it (God) but just stand there being confused and amused at the same time. Looks like some kind of ignorance and naivety, doesn't it?

Maybe that was what you were looking for...

[FireMarshal]

I must ask how you came up with this assumption? If you know the bible then you should know what Hebrews 13:1 & 2 says about angels. I know most of you people on here are athiests or of that nature, but this is just to try and change the perspective on angels. Verse one says "Let brotherly love continue" and verse two says "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Which would conclude that angels walk among us and we dont know it. Not because they are invisible, if they were, how would we show brotherly love towards them? So obviously they dont have wings either. They look just like regular people. I will agree with most of you in saying that we have more freedom than angels. The main purpose of the angels were to serve God. We have the choice to even believe in God or not to. Thats why i think when MJK says "father blessed them all with reason, and this is what they choose" That line is what the angels think about us, because they never got a choice and here we are with everything we could ever want. Society moves so fast and just take things for granted, never really appreciating what we have been given.
Food for thought. Not downing anyones beliefs!


I like this. It gives another meaning to the term "Sidelines"

Angels are free to roam with us "monkeys" as they wonder why we wage war over pieces of the land. And all the while, they are on the sidelines, because they are under Gods command, and cannot interfere with the world.

[THEWHITERABBIT27]

exactly. i would like to believe that is the meaning of mjk's words, however you never can be too sure with him

[Authority Questioner]

Maybe the "angels" that stand there "baffled and confused" are the christians who seem helpless to the world spinning out of control in front of them? They believe the father has blessed all the people with reason, yet they don't chose his way and the christians realize they are helpless in this respect? They'd rather sit on the "sidelines" and pass judgement rather than try to do something about it or seek an alternative idea to their beliefs? Again...individuals interperate at will.

[parables in the world]

I think its just saying how Angels are so baffled and confused on why humans chose something like war over true beauty of believing in The one being. It's about those who can't seem to grasp that we are created by one entity, we are one. Everything else is a test or an obstacle, Maybe Free Will is a test of our endurance. We can choose to do whatever but are you strong to resist certain things you see don't fit.

[riel]

I had a similar understanding of the message in the song. Very well articulated on your part. Thank you.

Maybe the "angels" that stand there "baffled and confused" are the christians who seem helpless to the world spinning out of control in front of them? They believe the father has blessed all the people with reason, yet they don't chose his way and the christians realize they are helpless in this respect? They'd rather sit on the "sidelines" and pass judgement rather than try to do something about it or seek an alternative idea to their beliefs? Again...individuals interperate at will.

[Terry21]

That's an excellent thought! Maybe another criticism on Christianity?

I love the way how this song twists its meaning if you look at it from a different perspective... From the blame at the people to the blame at the angels / God...

[peolesdru]

In reference to the frequent suggestions that Tool is tsk-tsking the violent monkeys, I refer you to some lyrics from Vicarious:

Incredulous at best
Your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men.
But pull your head on out
Your head be reasoned give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again

The universe is hostile
So impersonal
Devour to survive
So it is, so it's always been ...

Which picks up a thread started in the Disgustipated track from Undertow that observed "This is necessary, Life feeds on life feeds on life..."

So "Right in Two" is more of an observation of human proclivites (from the point of view of angels) than a judgement of them.

Also, I am convinced the lyric is "over sand, over mud" at 5:56, but I never see the lyrics section modifed to reflect the latest theories, so there you have it.

[useless]

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

What if the last two line actualy refered to the angles rather than the monkeys? It would be coherent with subtlefury's interpretation. "So they are the ones with reason, and still they stay there limited to dull observing?" I think Maynard is also angry at the angels. The angels being all those people who say how humanity sucks and don't do anything to change things.
Good thought, but if It's Maynard speaking, he's refering to God as "father," which seems unlikely to me.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Good thought, but if It's Maynard speaking, he's refering to God as "father," which seems unlikely to me.

That's not unlikely at all. Maynard may be against organized religion and it's bigotry but he's surely spiritual to some extreme and does believe in a higher power. I have always felt the same way whereas I do not believe in any specific religion as there are too many claiming they are the right one however, I do believe there is a good and evil force in the universe and a supreme being over all.

[useless]

That's not unlikely at all. Maynard may be against organized religion and it's bigotry but he's surely spiritual to some extreme and does believe in a higher power. I have always felt the same way whereas I do not believe in any specific religion as there are too many claiming they are the right one however, I do believe there is a good and evil force in the universe and a supreme being over all.
True, but god as the Father is a pretty strongly Christian image, especially in this song.

Either way, I still think that the last two lines of the verse
Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?
are meant to be the angels' thoughts, because it seems pretty obvious (although I hesitate to use that word in relation to any of Tool's lyrics) that it's meant to parallel with the verse
Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.
in which it clearly states that the last two lines are about humans.