Maynard the Catholic?

[Drunkard]

What I've noticed about this song is that it is not constitent with the Southern Baptist beliefs Maynard was raised with. Baptists reject evolution. They also reject Free Will, believing in pre-destination.

It would seem from this song (and 10,000 days) that Maynard has converted to Catholism. Catholics are the big propents of Free Will and they also believe in evolution.

Also note that the Catholic Church took a big stand against the U.S.'s war on the Iraqi people. The last pope released three statements rejecting the concept of pre-emptive war in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism emphasizing the need to give to the needy. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the two great evils of the world are extreme Communism and extreme Capitalism.

Also, in the song 10,000 days he emphasizes that his mother should get into Heaven based on good works that she has performed. Catholism is unique among Christian religion in believing that one achieves salvation through faith and good works. All other Christian religions that I know of teach that one gets into heaven by faith in Christ alone.

P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.

[Loveboat Captain]

"The Catholic Church also rejects materialism"

Have you ever seen a fucking catholic church?

[mmortal03]

"The Catholic Church also rejects materialism"

Have you ever seen a fucking catholic church?

Most of that has accumulated over a long period of time (the Catholic Church is very old) and much of it was given as gifts to the church. Others things are artwork and craftsmanship that has been produced to honor and glorify God. Do not assume that just because Catholic Churches have gold things in their cathedrals that they don't also give tons of services and support to the poor and needy. Further, the churches were built long ago to be so large because we were (are) to build God's house to be bigger than our own.

I am Catholic, and I really doubt that Maynard has become a Catholic, or Christian, just because he uses imagery from an orthodox Christian church.

[Drunkard]

"The Catholic Church also rejects materialism"

Have you ever seen a fucking catholic church?


Thank you for your comment. I have seen a number of Catholic Churchs. I admit that some of them are excessive. However, the vast majority of the them are are fairly simple buildings. They are large enough to hold many people and are well decrotated, but most them aren't loaded with treasures or anything.

Of course, I'm speaking as an American, whereas you are from Belfast. I understand there are some beatiful older Churches in Europe and I'd love to see them one day.

[MyrrorMynd]

"The Catholic Church also rejects materialism"

Have you ever seen a fucking catholic church?

I believe Drunkard's post was a little tongue-in-cheek. If not, then at least I got a good laugh out of it. Thanks, Drunkard. Oh, and if you have any informational pamphlets about the Catholic faith I wouldn't mind perusing them. That would be great crapper material!

[#Notion]

This song has nothing to do with religious beliefs other than the word angels. Get over it... please

[smeefsmeef]

Listen to Opiate, Eulogy, Hooker with a Penis, Maynard's Dick, The Gaping Lotus experience... etc... these songs are clearly reflective of Maynard's religious beliefs.

[evil agent]

Maynard is not Catholic, or Christian.

Maynard dislikes the organization known as the Catholic church.

[reign3]

We could also consider commen sense, which implies that just because a person holds views similar to a certain religion (though that's not even true in this case) does not mean they are a subscriber to that religion.

[Drunkard]

Listen to Opiate, Eulogy, Hooker with a Penis, Maynard's Dick, The Gaping Lotus experience... etc... these songs are clearly reflective of Maynard's religious beliefs.

Well, that's the beautiful thing about Free Will. A person's heart can change! Such changes and re-evalutions are common after to tradgic events, such as losing one's mother.

Listen to 10,000 Days (the album). Songs like Wings for Marie, the Pot, and Right in Two seem to reflect his new beliefs. I believe the song Rosetta Stoned reflects a frustration with his old way of seeing the world.

[ArizonaBay]

I give up on this debate- Maynard is nt a Catholic, i cant be bothered arguing why.

[Drunkard]

I give up on this debate- Maynard is nt a Catholic, i cant be bothered arguing why.

Thank you for your comment. But with all due respect I'm hearing a lot of close-minded people who refuse to accept or even consider that Maynard is now a Catholic.

Doesn't Tool encourage people to be open-minded? What would Maynard say about I comment of the form "That's not true, but I can't explain why?"

[Nate-Dogg85]

This song is meant to make you think about life man. Im atheist and i say shit like "god damn it" and "i prey to god this happens..." does ruin my atheist views? And honestly, what does it matter what maynard believes, although this album is a little more incite of what maynard is like, this isnt a biography of maynard.

Word of advice, become a musician and see what you start writing about. If you make all of your lyrics deeply personal and selfish, no one will give a shit what you put out. You have to look at things in society/human nature, analyze it and pick it apart and spit it out in your own words: criticizing, complaining, teaching, preaching, whatever you wanna do with it.

[koobcam]

Please don't start saying Maynard or TooL are fucking religious. It'll fucking be soooo shit. I prefer to think they take this piss out of it all.

I hope so at least. Buddhism is the only sensible one.

[Exegesis]

What I've noticed about this song is that it is not constitent with the Southern Baptist beliefs Maynard was raised with. Baptists reject evolution. They also reject Free Will, believing in pre-destination.

It would seem from this song (and 10,000 days) that Maynard has converted to Catholism. Catholics are the big propents of Free Will and they also believe in evolution.

Also note that the Catholic Church took a big stand against the U.S.'s war on the Iraqi people. The last pope released three statements rejecting the concept of pre-emptive war in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism emphasizing the need to give to the needy. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the two great evils of the world are extreme Communism and extreme Capitalism.

Also, in the song 10,000 days he emphasizes that his mother should get into Heaven based on good works that she has performed. Catholism is unique among Christian religion in believing that one achieves salvation through faith and good works. All other Christian religions that I know of teach that one gets into heaven by faith in Christ alone.

P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.


could you be any more un-fun?

[diabz]

Thank you for your comment. But with all due respect I'm hearing a lot of close-minded people who refuse to accept or even consider that Maynard is now a Catholic.

Doesn't Tool encourage people to be open-minded? What would Maynard say about I comment of the form "That's not true, but I can't explain why?"

since when does firm factually informed perceptive knowledge that there is no "God" constitute an assault on one's open-mindedness? you sir have no right to be calling anybody closed-minded. you believe there is a god. i know there is not a god. thus, one in my position may be inclined to accuse you of being a closed-minded fool for not being receptive to this beautifully dynamic, chaotically hostile existance. and don't deny that wasn't a holier-than-thou talking down at me from your high horse kinda vibe cause i got that in a big way. hell, you even had the audacity to be more than just a little assumptuous and practically confirm that maynard was an idiot. i mean catholic, "alot of close-minded people who refuse to accept". pfft.

and to disprove your hollow religious spiel that was cluttering maynard's "i-don't-care-what-these-clueless-drunkards-think" junkbox, on their guest programming of rage they played the video to "Dear God" by a band call "XTC". look it up.

"Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you? ~ And the devil too!"

[weesper]

For a clear and straight-from-the-gut view of maynard's ideas on religion please review the lyrics to Judith on APC's first record (from official APC website)



Judith
Mer de Noms

you're such an inspiration for ways that i will never ever choose to be.
oh so many ways for me to show you how your savior has abandoned you.
Thank(fuck) your god.
he did this, took all you had and left you this way.
still you pray, never stray, never taste of the fruit. never thought to question why.
it's not like you killed someone.
it's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side.
praise the one who left you broken down and paralyzed.
he did it all for you.
oh so many ways for me to show you how your dogma has abandoned you.
pray to your christ, to your god.
never taste of the fruit,
never stray, never break,
never choke on a lie,
even though he's the one who did this to you
thought to question why
it's not like you killed someone.
it's not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side.
talk to jesus christ as if he knows the reasons why he
did this all to you.
he did it all for you.

[swampyfool]

"The Catholic Church also rejects materialism"

Have you ever seen a fucking catholic church?
Right on!

I once visited St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City. It was on All Saints' Day of 2000, during the Silver Jubileum. I have always thought that the Basilica is one of the most beautiful buildings in the world, and my first view of the structure confirmed that. The front courtyard semi-encircled by a wall of ornate columns took my breath away. My first glimpses of the inside were equally stunning; beautifully painted, domed ceilings; paintings of religious history; floor-to-ceiling statues at least fifteen feet wide, sculpted in intricate detail of gold, flanking the Pope (who was actually giving mass at the time) on either side . . .

That's when this sick feeling hit me. You see, Pope John Paul II had just granted an audience with Bono, in which the Irish pop sensation pled the case of impoverished nations in the third world, who were trapped by oppressive debt to the IMF and the World Bank, to His Holiness. The Pope agreed that this tragedy was indeed the province of the Holy Catholic Church, and arranged for a meeting between his people and a delegation of the aforementioned financial institutes. The IMF and World Bank, mindful of the immense wealth of the Catholic Church (liquid financial holdings, land holdings, art collections, et al), suggested a deal that would involve the Catholic Church assuming parts of the debt, and then them absolving the rest.

So did the Pope espouse the dogma of rejecting materialism and part with a portion of his enormous wealth? No. He called a pilgrimage to the Vatican to coincide with Rome's Silver Jubileum (the commemoration of the five-hundredth anniversary of Rome's current incarnation- I believe) imploring Catholics of all stations to come and donate of their meager savings (above their tithe) to help alleviate this debt. I saw Catholics from around the world (Asia, Africa, Europe, the Americas, Polynesia . . .)- some in clothing so ragged I had to wondeer how they had managed to finance their voyages at all- dropping even more money into boxes distributed accross Rome and the Vatican- crossing themselves in joyful, silent reveries all the while.

So back to the sick feeling. How many people died in the processes of construction and placement of these enormous, material EDIFICES TO VANITY? How many people could all of that gold have fed? Yet it sits there, a grandiose display of wealth offered in tribute to the glory of god- reeking of like Idolotry, to a heathen like me, anyway. And right now, as I stand in front of His Papal Grace, how many people are seriously threatening their abilities to eat this Winter? All so that the Catholic Church can remain the largest landowner, can house the largest art collection (and incidentally, the largest collection of hardcore pornography- no shit), IN THE ENTIRE MOTHERFUCKING WORLD! I was sick to my stomach, and I had to get the hell out of this building. It was all I could do to retain enough prsence of mind to gather my traveling companions on the frantic bee-line to the door. It was agian all I could do to not call out to the teeming masses of blind sheep about the hypocrisy they had come to worship (The Vatican is fully sovereign and autonomous, and I'm quite alright with not having first-hand experience of those implications). Sure the Catholic Church denounces materialism in its adherents, but the reality is that the authoritarian structure which rests at the top of the institution obviously holds themselves above such a limitation.

You (Drunkard) say that the people who reject you're notion that Maynard is Catholic are being closed-minded, and I would agree with you if they did so out of hand. But that just isn't the case. They dismiss your assertion taking into acount a body of work in which Maynard has repeatedly and in no uncertain terms called out Christianity (in all of its organized incarnations) for exactly this type of hypocrisy.

However, for the sake of argument, let's put all of that aside for a moment. Even though I buy the notion that this song is couched in the framework of Catholic mythology, I cannot make the leap to deciding that Maynard is a Catholic on that alone. That's like saying that any artist who expresses their message in the context of the Olympian Gods must, by inference, be a Greek Deist- and that's just flawed reasoning. Now let's take Tool's body of work off of the backburner and combine it with such ill logic, and the resulting stew comes out saying that you are just plain wrong.

Incidentally, the IMF and the World Bank excepted the money raised in this pilgrimage and distributed it to the debts of all countries who were over a certain ammount in the red. In keeping with the example of the Catholic Church, however, they did nothing at all that would effect their own bottom line (like absolving a percentage of the debt commiserate with the donations- as they would have done had the Church actually donated from its own pockets). I wonder how many good Catholics sacrificed greatly of themselves to make the trip, yet only ended up donating to the relief effort for their own nation's debt.

I would like to finish by saying that I believe Catholics to be good people at heart, if a little misguided. I may disagree with certain beliefs on birth control, abortion, homosexuality . . . but anybody who does good works out of a belief that there is a higher power that wants us to live in harmony and peace is generally OK by me. I just wish that you would not settle for the hypocrisy of your leadership. They are people like you and me, and when such people are involved in an authority structure that has been allowed to exist above the rules that dictate the rest of our existences, they are prone to your concepts of "temptation" and a "fall from grace." Call them on it. Your church has undergone drastic reformations before, and- provided you make it happen- it will again.

Peace.

[swampyfool]

For a clear and straight-from-the-gut view of maynard's ideas on religion please review the lyrics to Judith on APC's first record (from official APC website)



Judith
Mer de Noms

you're such an inspiration for ways that i will never ever choose to be.
oh so many ways for me to show you how your savior has abandoned you.
Thank(fuck) your god.
he did this, took all you had and left you this way.
still you pray, never stray, never taste of the fruit. never thought to question why.
it's not like you killed someone.
it's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side.
praise the one who left you broken down and paralyzed.
he did it all for you.
oh so many ways for me to show you how your dogma has abandoned you.
pray to your christ, to your god.
never taste of the fruit,
never stray, never break,
never choke on a lie,
even though he's the one who did this to you
thought to question why
it's not like you killed someone.
it's not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side.
talk to jesus christ as if he knows the reasons why he
did this all to you.
he did it all for you.
Case in point.

[whitewater]

What I've noticed about this song is that it is not constitent with the Southern Baptist beliefs Maynard was raised with. Baptists reject evolution. They also reject Free Will, believing in pre-destination.

It would seem from this song (and 10,000 days) that Maynard has converted to Catholism. Catholics are the big propents of Free Will and they also believe in evolution.

Also note that the Catholic Church took a big stand against the U.S.'s war on the Iraqi people. The last pope released three statements rejecting the concept of pre-emptive war in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism emphasizing the need to give to the needy. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the two great evils of the world are extreme Communism and extreme Capitalism.

Also, in the song 10,000 days he emphasizes that his mother should get into Heaven based on good works that she has performed. Catholism is unique among Christian religion in believing that one achieves salvation through faith and good works. All other Christian religions that I know of teach that one gets into heaven by faith in Christ alone.

P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.

Frankly, his religious beliefs are none of your fucking business.

Secondly, stop putting words into his mouth. That's really rather rude.

[Judi]

Case in point.

Well who really cares what Maynard's religion is? Who cares how he feels about politics, religion, war or oil prices. Hopefully we are smart enough to make our own decisions regarding politics and hopefully we already have our own faith and don't need Maynard's guidance for salvation, or lack there of.
** He's an incredible artist and singer!!** Not a priest, or politician or any authority on politics or religion. The only time I really care about what comes out of his mouth is when he's singing.

[swampyfool]

Well who really cares what Maynard's religion is? Who cares how he feels about politics, religion, war or oil prices. Hopefully we are smart enough to make our own decisions regarding politics and hopefully we already have our own faith and don't need Maynard's guidance for salvation, or lack there of.
** He's an incredible artist and singer!!** Not a priest, or politician or any authority on politics or religion. The only time I really care about what comes out of his mouth is when he's singing.
Ordinarily, I don't care about his religion, but when somebody posts a thread asserting that Maynard may have switched to Catholicism with flimsy back up . . .

[Mukedek]

There is at least one other church that teaches and believes, "Faith withouot works is dead". That church the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Whether Maynard is a Catholic or not does not matter, what matters is that all people see the need for self sacrifice and the giving of all we have in order to strengthen the world and better each other.

[Crucify the Ego]

At a concert Maynard had this statement and I think it pretty much sums up the debate:
"There are a lot of people throughout history that have had moments of clarity, and they shared those moments. Entire religions were then founded out of these principles. Just simple things like unity, our connection with each other, evolving thoughts, choosing compassion over fear, very, very pure ideas. But then what happens is some asshole tries to make some money, or gain some power on it. You end up having these world religions with all those things that were talked about by Buddha, Gandhi, Krishna, Jesus. But these ideas get fucked up cause these people put their fingers in it and fuck it all up. This next song is about those assholes."
Now I'm gonna speak for myself on this one, but what I think seems to coincide with what Maynard thinks (judging on this statement and others). I think these people that Maynard speaks of had messages that should be universally accepted, but not universally forced on others. I think a dangerous line is crossed the moment an idea becomes a belief. Ideas can be changed and can only help when we need them. Beliefs have been the reason for countless wars and social inequalities. Including and especially Christian religious beliefs.

[Omar Rodriguez-Mopez]

i know there is not a god.

NO YOU DON'T NO YOU DON'T NO YOU DON'T!!! Give me one solid piece of evidence God does not exist, and I'll believe you. Not evidence that makes you think God does not exist.

And you talk about other people not being open-minded.

I'm sorry, I'm just annoyed by some of the shit I am hearing from atheist nowadays. Then again Christians are full of shit too. So whatever.

[xtremb]

Who Cares ?

REALLY ? ? ? ? ?

My own beliefs aside (trust me you don't wanna know)

Catholic, Christian, or even satan himself....
Maynard is who he is
and as long as he continues to make the music he does I will listen and enjoy


can I get an amen brother (jk)

[burning bridges]

No one can prove anything so we are all losers.

[diabz]

NO YOU DON'T NO YOU DON'T NO YOU DON'T!!! Give me one solid piece of evidence God does not exist, and I'll believe you. Not evidence that makes you think God does not exist.

And you talk about other people not being open-minded.

I'm sorry, I'm just annoyed by some of the shit I am hearing from atheist nowadays. Then again Christians are full of shit too. So whatever.

yo dude wake up to what you have just said.

i know (yes, yes i do) there isn't a "god". and the entire basis of christianity (and other religions?) is faith. thus regardless of the circumstances, to anyone's "god", i do not exist. such as one's "god" only exists due to their faith. capiche? i will not be judged. i will not spend an eternity as a conscious being that experiences anywhere but in this body. don't insult my intelligence and try to weasel some invalidity into my beautiful existance.

this argument will become tiring rather quickly. let's move on.

[formerlycontent]

ok, so this thread has become a debate about religion really, so i dont feel like i'm veering from the topic when i say this: Religion means so much to so many people. Why? well, my Grandfather said it best. "Religion is discipline for the young, & comfort for the old" thats all it is. But if it makes people feel secure & even happy, why not? great, good for them, keep it up, in all seriousness. Myself however, I think for myself & question authority.

[formerlycontent]

Who believed in santa when they were a kid? or the easter bunny, even the tooth fairy? I sure did, that was until I began to question. And i'm not trying to be a smartass when i say this. But santa being real makes more sense than any religion.

[religion kills]

So many people with their jesus blinders on. Wise up, religion on the whole does no one any good. Why can't someone have values and care for their fellow man without being labled a sheeple of certain denomination? Don't you think Maynard might just care about the future of this pathetic world we currently live in without having to believe in a FAITH that tells him what he should think?

FUCK people, open your eyes. Religion will never be the way to a perfect world, just look at history. Caring about ALL the people in it and the future of those people for centuries to come is what will save the human race from a self fulfilling extinction.

Shit, now I sound like a fucking hippy. Rant over, carry on.

[toadpipe]

^^ whose values are you referring to when you say, "why can't people just have values?"? You know there are people who value eating other people? Or are you referring to some established set of values, ie. the one you were just saying we should avoid.



Also you just can't say everyone do good to everyone, because at some point in time, doing good to one person is gonna involve doing some kind of ill to another person. For example, if someone was threatinng to kill a child and the only means to stop that person were to bodily harm them in the process, then you can't just be doing good to everyone in that situation can you. So basically you are gonna have to have some set of rules that define situations like that and what you "ought" to do, once again some established set of values.

Don't even get me started on how you are gonna define "good" because that is gonna get you into a whole other mess.


Simply put, religion might be some childlike nonsense to you and if it makes you feel good to put others down for being "weak" and believing in it, then realize you live in a glass house as well and you should probably put that stone down.



Also to the original poster, southern baptists and baptists in general are pretty indecisive on their view of free will whether it be calvinism, hyper calvinism, arminiasm, the soverignty of god and/or the responibility of man. it's a very difiicult mind job to get around the intricacies of all of it and to remain true to the biblical text and to remain logical whithout finding yourself in one fallacy or another. Catholics are just as divided on the issue as protestants by the way. It's just one of those things.

[The Dharma Bum]

Thank you for your comment. But with all due respect I'm hearing a lot of close-minded people who refuse to accept or even consider that Maynard is now a Catholic.

Doesn't Tool encourage people to be open-minded? What would Maynard say about I comment of the form "That's not true, but I can't explain why?"
With all due respect, I hear a lot of people projecting their own beliefs onto Maynards lyrics. It is possible to use imagery from a the dominant faith of your culture without it meaning that you have converted. I do not consider myself a christian in any way shape, or form, but I use christian imagery in my poetry all the time. The reason being is that by doing so others can readily internalize what I am saying due to a familiararity with the images.

[The Dharma Bum]

since when does firm factually informed perceptive knowledge that there is no "God" constitute an assault on one's open-mindedness? you sir have no right to be calling anybody closed-minded. you believe there is a god. i know there is not a god. thus, one in my position may be inclined to accuse you of being a closed-minded fool for not being receptive to this beautifully dynamic, chaotically hostile existance. and don't deny that wasn't a holier-than-thou talking down at me from your high horse kinda vibe cause i got that in a big way. hell, you even had the audacity to be more than just a little assumptuous and practically confirm that maynard was an idiot. i mean catholic, "alot of close-minded people who refuse to accept". pfft.

and to disprove your hollow religious spiel that was cluttering maynard's "i-don't-care-what-these-clueless-drunkards-think" junkbox, on their guest programming of rage they played the video to "Dear God" by a band call "XTC". look it up.

"Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you? ~ And the devil too!"

This is a load of Bullshit, you don't KNOW that god doesn't exist, you BELIEVE that god doesn't exists, there is a huge difference, Hypocrite. How do you know god doesn't exist, did he/she tell you?

BTW: I don't BELIEVE in the god of Abraham, but I'm certainly not arrogant enough to think that what I believe is fact while another's is simply a belief

[PriceisRight]

Why does everyone go back to eulogy?

That song uses religous symbolism to describe something else.

It's not necessarily talking about jesus. It's talking about anyone who feels the need to sacrifice themselves for a cause. What good is your voice if it's snuffed out?

or it's about hipocritical people who claim to put it all on the line for a cause. But when it's time to pay for what you believe, they puss out.

"Why then are you so surprised when you hear your on eulogy?"

Stop thinking so linear! Maynard has the capacity to change. Live events alter ones view on life. The death of his mom has the ability to change his view.

or you could just watch it's a wonderful life.

[Crucify the Ego]

What is God?
?
?
?
?
Once you all realize that you can't answer this question, you should also start realizing the futility of debating its existence or non existence.

[The Dharma Bum]

I think you should replace "You all" with "People" 'cause I don't think everyone here is arguing the existance or non-existance of god. Most seem to be arguing whether Maynard is a Catholic, or not. Which is a completely different discussion.

[Crucify the Ego]

Um you were JUST arguing the existence of god ...
If there actually is a debate whether Maynard is Catholic (which I'm not seeing it here), then let me end it now. Nope

[diabz]

yeah i find it so amusing that people will crusade to protect the existance of this "god" against somebody who has such a firm view on the subject. it's similarly funny that they say 'you don't know that "god" doesn't exist, you just believe that "god" doesn't exist' because there's no belief about it from my perspective. the other side of the coin is about faith. faith faith faith. blind faith really. like the faith that you may have in me to continue to argue this point home. you've already ignored the blindingly obvious fact that i don't wish to continue this argument (much as most blindly ignore the evidence of evolution, the fact that their "god" has forsaken them for the past 2000 years [lol], etc) and yet people are still questioning and telling me that i believe something when it comes to religion. bzzt, wrong. i don't believe. you are the ones faithful to that which you cannot see. regardless, if it comes down to my "belief" (or perhaps my *prediction*, as that somewhat adds an educated/experienced twist to the mix, rather than being about worshipping an all-powerful entity who has already forseen me saying this) your spirit/soul/consciousness will leave your body based on your view at the time of your death. so to say that the christians will be judged, may not be entirely untrue, but i will not concede that there is an entity that is "god", but rather the experience of death will be what is written about because that is what the spirit truly *believes*. my experience with death on the other hand will be one of deep reflection followed by the passing onto wherever the spiral may take me.

and i assure you i know which i would rather experience, given the choice of ignorance or re-entry into the gap.

[The Dharma Bum]

Um, where? I was telling someone that there is no way they can claim to KNOW that god does not exist in the same breath when that same person was claiming that someone else's thoughts on god were nothing more than a belief.

[The Dharma Bum]

yeah i find it so amusing that people will crusade to protect the existance of this "god" against somebody who has such a firm view on the subject. it's similarly funny that they say 'you don't know that "god" doesn't exist, you just believe that "god" doesn't exist' because there's no belief about it from my perspective. the other side of the coin is about faith. faith faith faith. blind faith really. like the faith that you may have in me to continue to argue this point home. you've already ignored the blindingly obvious fact that i don't wish to continue this argument (much as most blindly ignore the evidence of evolution, the fact that their "god" has forsaken them for the past 2000 years [lol], etc) and yet people are still questioning and telling me that i believe something when it comes to religion. bzzt, wrong. i don't believe. you are the ones faithful to that which you cannot see. regardless, if it comes down to my "belief" (or perhaps my *prediction*, as that somewhat adds an educated/experienced twist to the mix, rather than being about worshipping an all-powerful entity who has already forseen me saying this) your spirit/soul/consciousness will leave your body based on your view at the time of your death. so to say that the christians will be judged, may not be entirely untrue, but i will not concede that there is an entity that is "god", but rather the experience of death will be what is written about because that is what the spirit truly *believes*. my experience with death on the other hand will be one of deep reflection followed by the passing onto wherever the spiral may take me.

and i assure you i know which i would rather experience, given the choice of ignorance or re-entry into the gap.
I can only presume that you are addressing me, so I will respond. First of all I never said that I believe in God, in fact I insinuated quite the opposite. I simply think it is arrogant of you to say that your believe is a fact. Based on what proof? Don't give me any shit about christianity, cause christians don't have a monopoly on the concept of god. So, no matter which side of the debate your on it is belief. You yammer about "The Spiral, and I say that it just different termminology for what other's call "God" it is still just a belief. So don't ridicule others for their beliefs.

[Omar Rodriguez-Mopez]

yo dude wake up to what you have just said.

i know (yes, yes i do) there isn't a "god". and the entire basis of christianity (and other religions?) is faith. thus regardless of the circumstances, to anyone's "god", i do not exist. such as one's "god" only exists due to their faith. capiche? i will not be judged. i will not spend an eternity as a conscious being that experiences anywhere but in this body. don't insult my intelligence and try to weasel some invalidity into my beautiful existance.

this argument will become tiring rather quickly. let's move on.

While many people base belief on faith, I base mine off logic (don't laugh). I still don't agree with you, but I see where your coming from, and where this is going, so ok then.

Back on topic, the thought of Maynard joining that which he despises is almost completely out of the question.

By the way, what was his mothers branch of Christianity?

[DON IOTAE]

"The Catholic Church also rejects materialism"

Have you ever seen a fucking catholic church?

You must all read this (funny article):

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30972

And did you know that they stole the obelisks that once belonged to the egyptians, incrusting a cross on the tip to symbolize the "omniprescence" of Christianity? Yeah, you can see them now at the Vatican... check it out:

http://www.camt.usyd.edu.au/people/zqsu/EuroSummer/temp/Vatican%20City%20St%20Peter%20Square%20Italia%2001 .jpg

Sorry for not knowing how to do nice links... How do you do them, btw? Anyone that would like to share the knowledge can pm me, and I'd appreciate it.

[diabz]

I can only presume that you are addressing me, so I will respond. First of all I never said that I believe in God, in fact I insinuated quite the opposite. I simply think it is arrogant of you to say that your believe is a fact. Based on what proof? Don't give me any shit about christianity, cause christians don't have a monopoly on the concept of god. So, no matter which side of the debate your on it is belief. You yammer about "The Spiral, and I say that it just different termminology for what other's call "God" it is still just a belief. So don't ridicule others for their beliefs.

um? i ridiculed people based on their belief? or based on their words and actions? i believe it was the latter.

also, i hardly defined the spiral. "god" is defined. my reference was to the chaos, the unknown. my path is not set out.

you like many others are reading what you want to read and not what is being stated. I DO NOT BELIEVE. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS NO "GOD". THERE IS NO "GOD". can you not see the definition between them? honestly. i don't have a belief because for me to have a belief i would therefore consider the idea. but i don't even consider it. i never said i had proof there was no "god" for fuck's sake. just get a grip on the subject.

if i have to break it down any further than that, you truly are an idiot.

[PriceisRight]

um? i ridiculed people based on their belief? or based on their words and actions? i believe it was the latter.

also, i hardly defined the spiral. "god" is defined. my reference was to the chaos, the unknown. my path is not set out.

you like many others are reading what you want to read and not what is being stated. I DO NOT BELIEVE. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS NO "GOD". THERE IS NO "GOD". can you not see the definition between them? honestly. i don't have a belief because for me to have a belief i would therefore consider the idea. but i don't even consider it. i never said i had proof there was no "god" for fuck's sake. just get a grip on the subject.

if i have to break it down any further than that, you truly are an idiot.

talk about closed minded

[implandnoises]

um? i ridiculed people based on their belief? or based on their words and actions? i believe it was the latter.

also, i hardly defined the spiral. "god" is defined. my reference was to the chaos, the unknown. my path is not set out.

you like many others are reading what you want to read and not what is being stated. I DO NOT BELIEVE. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS NO "GOD". THERE IS NO "GOD". can you not see the definition between them? honestly. i don't have a belief because for me to have a belief i would therefore consider the idea. but i don't even consider it. i never said i had proof there was no "god" for fuck's sake. just get a grip on the subject.

if i have to break it down any further than that, you truly are an idiot.

I am an idiot, please can you answer this question:

Do you deny God?

Note that I do not define God in this question. God is indefinable (or would be if it existed - I am not saying one way or the other). Thank you for your co-operation.

[diabz]

ah, a clutter of variabes? you've already established that i'm closed-minded anyway so i might just retreat.

but thanks for the 10th post. woo post count.

[The Dharma Bum]

um? i ridiculed people based on their belief? or based on their words and actions? i believe it was the latter.

also, i hardly defined the spiral. "god" is defined. my reference was to the chaos, the unknown. my path is not set out.

you like many others are reading what you want to read and not what is being stated. I DO NOT BELIEVE. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS NO "GOD". THERE IS NO "GOD". can you not see the definition between them? honestly. i don't have a belief because for me to have a belief i would therefore consider the idea. but i don't even consider it. i never said i had proof there was no "god" for fuck's sake. just get a grip on the subject.

if i have to break it down any further than that, you truly are an idiot.

And others don't believe there is a god they KNOW it. For you to state that their KNOWLEDGE is a BELIEF while your's is FACT is arrogant.

As an example: A friend of mine was shot several times by an escaped mental patient. As she was being shot, she claims she felt a hand push her down and heard a voice tell her to "get down, he's going to keep shooting until you are dead." Personally I think it was her rationalizing the situation, but she is adamant that there is god based on her first hand KNOWLEDGE. Who am I, or you to claim otherwise? She won't even concider that there is no god, so according to your own logic this is proof that it is NOT A BELIEF. She has at least offered proof of her KNOWLEDGE, all you have is a superior attitude and capitalization. Oh, gee, since you use capital letters it must be true.

If I have to break it down Further than that, you truly are what you accuse me of being.

[undertoes]

yay

[PriceisRight]

someone just got pwned

[eonblue462]

Ok people, here it is, straight from the man's mouth. Take what you will from it. This is an interview with Maynard and Billy after the release of “Mer de Noms”. I have it on audio if anyone would care to hear this part in case they need extra proof or whatever, it's nothin too major but it pretty much outlines his beliefs:

INTERVIEWER:
Maynard, “Toolstargen” would like to know “I was wondering if any of the songs have bible significance, for example, such as [sic] Thomas, Judith, Magdellena”?

MAYNARD:
Only loosely, i mean I’m a fairly spiritual person. I do a lot of study and research into mythology and esoteric studies. I’m not necessarily a Christian, per say. I think all those spiritual leaders had their point and they’re all saying pretty much saying the same thing, across the board pretty much. It was when the profit part came in to play, when the people that are manipulative figured out a way to make a living on those truths, which are free, the truth is free and once you understand the basic truth about your true nature being spirit and light, god, love all of that is unconditional and eternal, there you go, what more do you really need to know. Em, all those studies are pretty much just a process of becoming more conscious, becoming a conscious being in this place and time and to manipulate people, to inflict rules on any of that stuff is kinda missing the point really, compassion and all that stuff, just unconditional love is pretty much the goal of any of them, eh, having said that, yeah some of the songs have their spiritual references but they’re not necessarily specific references to Christianity. Although from what I understand, having travelled around the mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so i guess the choice now is we have to decide weather we should spit or swallow..... What’s the next question?



OK, what I gather from it is that at the time of the interview maynard definatly isn't a Catholic, and from what he said I doubt he would ever become one....per say!!
I think that maynard takes the words of all the prophets, Jesus, Buddah, Ghandi, bill hicks!!! etc. whoever, anyone can be a prophet! What I believe is that all those type of guys, for example, Jesus, were people who had an idea, and a longing to do good, and over the years their words have been altered and religions have sprung up. If maynard says he's not a christian, PER SAY. It seams to mean that he must have some christian beliefs but he's not a member of an actual christian religion. Thats just my opinion, feel free to correct me.

[The Dharma Bum]

^^ you should have posted this in the Maynard is a Hypocrite thread, for Submachine to read.

[MypugsAreSmarterThanYou]

Fuck the Catholic church.
Their whole religion is built on blood.

[toadpipe]

Uhm, thats a pretty cheap cop out if you ask me. I mean really he claimed to be the son of god, said he could forgive your sins and offer you the only way to eternal life. What do you say about someone like that? you either have to say he was insane, he was a liar, or he was who he said he was, anyother view you might have is really just fooling yourself and a cheap way to not piss people off. That was probably the lamest answer I have ever heard given by someone who claims to have really looked into the whole thing. It's not only lame but also absurd and illogical to hold the view that all those guys mentioned above espoused the same beliefs. I can't really recall any of them saying, "hey some of this stuff I am saying is pretty good, so take what fits your life and leave the rest, oh and by the way not only do i have the answer, the rest of these really neat guys has the answer too, so feel free to listen to them as well." I'd rather have someone say how they really feel than that luke warm slogan crap that makes me want to spit it out my mouth.

[nighthawk]

Catholicism is relly fucked up like almost all religions, there are just secrets and lies and beside of that, no matters what you or maynard belive God is the same in all religions and we will go to the same place after death.

[MypugsAreSmarterThanYou]

Uhm, thats a pretty cheap cop out if you ask me. I mean really he claimed to be the son of god, said he could forgive your sins and offer you the only way to eternal life. What do you say about someone like that? you either have to say he was insane, he was a liar, or he was who he said he was, anyother view you might have is really just fooling yourself and a cheap way to not piss people off. That was probably the lamest answer I have ever heard given by someone who claims to have really looked into the whole thing. It's not only lame but also absurd and illogical to hold the view that all those guys mentioned above espoused the same beliefs. I can't really recall any of them saying, "hey some of this stuff I am saying is pretty good, so take what fits your life and leave the rest, oh and by the way not only do i have the answer, the rest of these really neat guys has the answer too, so feel free to listen to them as well." I'd rather have someone say how they really feel than that luke warm slogan crap that makes me want to spit it out my mouth.
ummmm......the Catholic church is built on blood.
Not on Jesus's teachings.
I don't need God to forgive my sins, my true nature is Sinless.
i don't need someone to offer me eternal life, when it's already here.

btw, if i claimed what i just said above back in those days, the catholic crusades would have me exterminated.

[pivotal digit]

I'm surprised none of you people recognized Maynard as a Jesus
fan from way back....

[The Dharma Bum]

Who Says I didn't?

[implandnoises]

ah, a clutter of variabes? you've already established that i'm closed-minded anyway so i might just retreat.

but thanks for the 10th post. woo post count.

I assume you are responding to me?

I haven't established anything about you, thats why I am asking. I actually think we may have a similar mindset. But also maybe not, hence the question.

There is a difference between believing there is no God and having no belief either way, I understand that and I think that is what you are trying to say. However, you keep stating that you know there is no God. Whether you like it or not, that is almost certainly a belief (unless you are God, in which case it is a paradox). The one other possiblity is that you mean this: there is no "God" - "God" being that which is defined as [insert stereotype here]. That is true and testible. There is no stereotypical Christian God sitting on a cloud firing lightening bolts at evil doers, even when you make this image less laughable and just rely on the mystical descriptions in the scripture there are too many contradictions for this "God" to be fact.

So if that is your thinking then I agree. But that does not mean that there is not an indefinable mystica. Clearly there is. This is what the mystics were attempting to refer to before their message got distorted into recognisable symbols like the holy "Father" figure and all the others. Blah blah blah I know everything, I am always right, man, I have got to get off this opinion forum. Encouraging people to vent their opinions is not healthy for anyone.....

[k~nug]

Isnt this the same Maynard who found jesus on april fools day? Wasn't he some drunk guy? This was in April, after the album was recorded. I can't see him mocking his own faith. So it must not be his faith.

Personally I think he is being sarcastic here in his pov, wondering aloud how God (he uses the word Father, implying the christian god) would let mankind degenerate into basic animalistic territorial fights even though he 'blessed them with reason'.


I used to be an evangelical christian and never heard anything about pre-destination, I wasn't baptist, but most evangicals hold that one of the most basic tenants of the faith is being saved, which implies free-will because the person chooses to renounce his sins and come before god and ask him into their hearts. The baptists have this practice as well.

And the 'faith without works is dead' is something believed by all protestant sects, not only mormons (church of jesus christ bla bla bla) Im not sure about catholics.

[PriceisRight]

ummmm......the Catholic church is built on blood.
Not on Jesus's teachings.
I don't need God to forgive my sins, my true nature is Sinless.
i don't need someone to offer me eternal life, when it's already here.

btw, if i claimed what i just said above back in those days, the catholic crusades would have me exterminated.

actually...according to the christian faith you are born with origional sin from adam and eve.

sooooo....agian if you believe this.....you DO need salvation.

oh....and how is the catholic church built on blood? I'm not catholic if you are wondering, but I would like to know.

[k~nug]

oh....and how is the catholic church built on blood? I'm not catholic if you are wondering, but I would like to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church#Controversial_Church_history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

[diabz]

I actually think we may have a similar mindset. But also maybe not, hence the question.

There is a difference between believing there is no God and having no belief either way, I understand that and I think that is what you are trying to say. However, you keep stating that you know there is no God. Whether you like it or not, that is almost certainly a belief (unless you are God, in which case it is a paradox). The one other possiblity is that you mean this: there is no "God" - "God" being that which is defined as [insert stereotype here]. That is true and testible. There is no stereotypical Christian God sitting on a cloud firing lightening bolts at evil doers, even when you make this image less laughable and just rely on the mystical descriptions in the scripture there are too many contradictions for this "God" to be fact.

So if that is your thinking then I agree. But that does not mean that there is not an indefinable mystica. Clearly there is. This is what the mystics were attempting to refer to before their message got distorted into recognisable symbols like the holy "Father" figure and all the others. Blah blah blah I know everything, I am always right, man, I have got to get off this opinion forum. Encouraging people to vent their opinions is not healthy for anyone.....

wow, i'm quite thankful that atleast a couple of people can see where i'm getting at. i was a little rash in getting my message across as the slander about closed-mindness (which, btw, i didn't start) was a little frustrating.

i met a boy~

[STORMCROW1031]

Uhm, thats a pretty cheap cop out if you ask me. I mean really he claimed to be the son of god, said he could forgive your sins and offer you the only way to eternal life. What do you say about someone like that? you either have to say he was insane, he was a liar, or he was who he said he was, anyother view you might have is really just fooling yourself and a cheap way to not piss people off. That was probably the lamest answer I have ever heard given by someone who claims to have really looked into the whole thing. It's not only lame but also absurd and illogical to hold the view that all those guys mentioned above espoused the same beliefs. I can't really recall any of them saying, "hey some of this stuff I am saying is pretty good, so take what fits your life and leave the rest, oh and by the way not only do i have the answer, the rest of these really neat guys has the answer too, so feel free to listen to them as well." I'd rather have someone say how they really feel than that luke warm slogan crap that makes me want to spit it out my mouth.

The only evidence that Jesus claimed to be the "song of god" etc. was from people living quite a few generations after his death who thought what he was saying was very cool. They wrote THEIR thoughts down into the new testament. Jesus never wrote a thing.
Oh, and for your info, Buddhism encourages people to discover the answers for themselves. Its not based on scripture tho there are writings that can be read for guidance. Buddha definitely knew he wasn't a god - it was the people who thought his stuff was incredible that made him a kind of "holy figure".
No doubt, oh a few decades from now, poor Maynard will have his statue everywhere with people arguing over whether or not he was divine! (LOL)

[swampyfool]

The only evidence that Jesus claimed to be the "song of god" etc. was from people living quite a few generations after his death who thought what he was saying was very cool. They wrote THEIR thoughts down into the new testament. Jesus never wrote a thing.
Oh, and for your info, Buddhism encourages people to discover the answers for themselves. Its not based on scripture tho there are writings that can be read for guidance. Buddha definitely knew he wasn't a god - it was the people who thought his stuff was incredible that made him a kind of "holy figure".
No doubt, oh a few decades from now, poor Maynard will have his statue everywhere with people arguing over whether or not he was divine! (LOL)
Boy am I glad I kept reading- I was about to post the same thing. Well said.

[Dj Consequence]

I can't really recall any of them saying, "hey some of this stuff I am saying is pretty good, so take what fits your life and leave the rest, oh and by the way not only do i have the answer, the rest of these really neat guys has the answer too, so feel free to listen to them as well." I'd rather have someone say how they really feel than that luke warm slogan crap that makes me want to spit it out my mouth.

So you've talked to Jesus ?

[Scarlett]

Fuck the Catholic church.
Their whole religion is built on blood.
every religion is built on blood

[STORMCROW1031]

no wars have been started in the name of Buddhism

[BlanketEffect]

That's because Buddhism doesn't require blind faith. It just requires forethought. Cause and effect. Not mystical punishment or rewards. So there's nothing to fight about.

By the way, Buddah loved all of you a long time before Jesus did. Why not kill people over him? Oh yeah, because he was honest with his message. He didn't claim to be the son of some fictitious Jewish character in the sky. Any wonder why people kill each other in the name of Jesus. The whole faith, as much love as it may preach, is still fundamentally based on nothing but a lie. Of course it's going to lead to suffering.

[BlanketEffect]

But, in Jesus' defence, he's kinda like Maynard. He had a message, he knew what it meant to him, and then a whole bunch of assholes came along and weren't content to have their own interpretations of it - they have to go and kill anyone whose interpretation is different than theirs.

So in actuality, those of you that argue ONE message from Tool songs above all are really no better than the fucks who started the crusades... and every other atrocity in the name of "Jesus"

[STORMCROW1031]

But, in Jesus' defence, he's kinda like Maynard. He had a message, he knew what it meant to him, and then a whole bunch of assholes came along and weren't content to have their own interpretations of it - they have to go and kill anyone whose interpretation is different than theirs.

So in actuality, those of you that argue ONE message from Tool songs above all are really no better than the fucks who started the crusades... and every other atrocity in the name of "Jesus"
YES!!! PRECISELY!!!!
The Jews were pissed as Jesus because he went against what they held "sacred". He wanted them to stop clinging to shit like that - his message was about fighting intolerance - realizing we're all the same - and look at the crap the "Christians" have done in his name!!

[eonblue462]

.......That was probably the lamest answer I have ever heard given by someone who claims to have really looked into the whole thing. It's not only lame but also absurd and illogical to hold the view that all those guys mentioned above espoused the same beliefs. I can't really recall any of them saying, "hey some of this stuff I am saying is pretty good, so take what fits your life and leave the rest, oh and by the way not only do i have the answer, the rest of these really neat guys has the answer too, so feel free to listen to them as well." I'd rather have someone say how they really feel than that luke warm slogan crap that makes me want to spit it out my mouth.

I didn't say any of them asked us to take some of their stuff and mix it with others. THEY WERE JUST HUMAN, JESUS INCLUDED!!! (these are emphasising capital letters, not shouting ones!!) Of coarse I am free to listen to any prophet I want to and take any parts I agree with, and not follow any that I don't agree with. Who are they to order me around?
As someone else said, jesus never wrote anything down, so we're just getting
someones version of his life. I never understood how people could say "He was the only son of god" when Jesus said that god is the father of us all, Wouldn't that make us all Gods children and EQUAL to Jesus??!!! Just sayin!!!
And Toadpipe, I agree with maynard in saying that all the prophets had ROUGHLY the same message.


I believe Jesus was just like maynard or Bill hicks or any other very well respected prophet, it just got blown out of proportion over time. Thanks for reading.

[PriceisRight]

YES!!! PRECISELY!!!!
The Jews were pissed as Jesus because he went against what they held "sacred". He wanted them to stop clinging to shit like that - his message was about fighting intolerance - realizing we're all the same - and look at the crap the "Christians" have done in his name!!

jesus's message was love. simple as that. It wasn't rebellion, or anything like that. Simply love.

and the jews (or head pharacies I should say) were pissed because people were listening to him over them. They felt threatend, so they got him killed.

[swampyfool]

jesus's message was love. simple as that. It wasn't rebellion, or anything like that. Simply love.

and the jews (or head pharacies I should say) were pissed because people were listening to him over them. They felt threatend, so they got him killed.
Are you saying that Jesus' message wasn't controversial in the context of (then) modern dogma? That's what a prophet does- spreads a message of dogmatic reform in the name of a truer interpretation of the word of God. It's not like the Pharacies were losing followers to a more charismatic deliverer of an identical message. People followed Jesus because they supported his reforms of the extant dogma.

And Jesus didn't own love.

[sidereal]

jesus's message was love. simple as that. It wasn't rebellion, or anything like that. Simply love.

YES!!! PRECISELY!!!!
The Jews were pissed as Jesus because he went against what they held "sacred". He wanted them to stop clinging to shit like that - his message was about fighting intolerance - realizing we're all the same - and look at the crap the "Christians" have done in his name!!

Love has nothing to do with realizing we're all the same. In fact, it implies one must come to the opposite realization. Love, which is just another form of meaning (or a reason to do something over doing something else), is realized by creating divisions between things in reality (which is how all meaning is constructed by one in their own mind). It's about creating dualities; Black vs White, Good vs Bad....
Love (and indeed the abillity to make decisions) as you know it would cease to exist if everyone/thing became simply "the same". For what then would you have to love? Contrasts are at the root of our thoughts & lives. Why are people so afraid of them? We seem to be hell bent of denying differences. On a worlwide scale, until we come to accept them as what they are - differences - rather than squash them through mono-culturalism, cultures will continue to plumet into generic wastlands.

But, in Jesus' defence, he's kinda like Maynard. He had a message, he knew what it meant to him, and then a whole bunch of assholes came along and weren't content to have their own interpretations of it - they have to go and kill anyone whose interpretation is different than theirs.
So in actuality, those of you that argue ONE message from Tool songs above all are really no better than the fucks who started the crusades... and every other atrocity in the name of "Jesus"

What is the point of art/a message if it is simply an avenue for pluralism? Or, a way for people to sit by themselves and have their individual takes on the world glorified, no matter who they may be and what their takes on the world actually are. IMO, something is artistic if it explores and consciously expresses the artist's personal experiences with (i.e. the artist's take) on reality (the one and only truth). IMO, a peice of art/a message is a distinct and unique representation of a person(s) take on truth/reality...not simply candy for people to jerk off too, stroking their own ego's.

Why would Jesus have preeched in the first place if he did not care what people got out of his words? In the name of consistency one surely can't think that Jesus wanted to get across his message, but that he also wanted you to be free to get what ever the hell you wanted to out of his message? I can't say for sure but i would hope that there was only ONE clear message in each of Jesus's 'teachings'. Independent of whether i agree with the messages, the man should have had the foresight to record them himself.

Pluralism, or surrendering to the requirements of all the kinds of differences involved, taken to its logical conclusion results in endless clammoring and compromise. You can't have any sense of direction if you are are trying to cater for so many options. See how far you get in life without a clear direction. See how far the world gets without a clear sense of direction. Global Warming? Pop "Culture"? Globalization? Base materialism? Overpopulation? I can't see why someone offering others their wisdom would in effect want to offer them nothing.

[bellamadia]

Catholics believe in evolution.

Ummmm I don't think so.... Read the bible on how man and woman and all other things were created.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism emphasizing the need to give to the needy.

Ooooh where do I begin. That little basket that goes around twice during mass... let me tell you where that goes. You think it's to the needy, or to the church to help spread the word... well my friend, let me tell you about my latest experience. I am getting married in 2 months and because of our parents we are having a Catholic wedding. In order to get married in the Catholic church there are some prerequisites. One is to meet with the preist so he can decide if you are fit to be married. Well, he invited us into his home for this little meeting. In his home (him and 1 other preist) I found the following: A brand new HUGE flat screen plasma TV, a gorgeous computer system, a Bose stereo system, a real nice BBQ grill outside , several bottles of wine, an empty glass sitting on the table on the nice porch next to an ashtray with a half smoked cigar, a state of the art kitchen with new appliances and a nice TV. I could go on and on. Hmmm, yes, thats modest isn't it? I could also talk about the other AWFUL things that I have experienced since beginning the marriage prep, but I'll save that for another post.

P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.

LOL, are you gonna try to convert people on a Tool website?

[eonblue462]

Your mom is a well-respected prophet.

Oh Yeah, well your mom isn't.

[eslupminoyler]

Ummmm I don't think so.... Read the bible on how man and woman and all other things were created.




Ooooh where do I begin. That little basket that goes around twice during mass... let me tell you where that goes. You think it's to the needy, or to the church to help spread the word... well my friend, let me tell you about my latest experience. I am getting married in 2 months and because of our parents we are having a Catholic wedding. In order to get married in the Catholic church there are some prerequisites. One is to meet with the preist so he can decide if you are fit to be married. Well, he invited us into his home for this little meeting. In his home (him and 1 other preist) I found the following: A brand new HUGE flat screen plasma TV, a gorgeous computer system, a Bose stereo system, a real nice BBQ grill outside , several bottles of wine, an empty glass sitting on the table on the nice porch next to an ashtray with a half smoked cigar, a state of the art kitchen with new appliances and a nice TV. I could go on and on. Hmmm, yes, thats modest isn't it? I could also talk about the other AWFUL things that I have experienced since beginning the marriage prep, but I'll save that for another post.



LOL, are you gonna try to convert people on a Tool website?

Read proverbs. It says to gain knowledge and understanding. How would that not lead to Evolution?

There is a difference between owning nice things and allowing those things to own you and hold you down.
Also, though "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter into Heaven"

Convert?
Spreading the word is not an attempt to convert. The individual hears The Word, and makes that decision to stagnate or convert as an individual (alone). Your almost suggesting that missionairies put people in shackles until they convert.

Your choosing the cynical thoughts, because it is something which you see, that your mind interprets as hypocritical or against the nature of charity and goodness (The priest with nice things). He might be evil who knows. I'm just saying that Jesus is good. Catholics are just a group of people. Some are good some are bad. DOn't stereotype them.

[unto her a vineyard]

uhm... i just wanted to mention how also in uh. wings or 10 thousand days or something somewhere he says fetch me the spirit the son and the father... emphasis on how their seperate..and mormons believe that God Jesus Christ and the Spirit are three seperate entities that are one in purpouse, not relevant at all.. maybe not interesting at all.. i just thought that it was interesting that there were any openly religious statements refrences whatever that didnt seem to be sarcastic/masked with sarcasim espically ones from i dont know how else to describe them accept "main stream" religions..which to me is just a consollidation(sp?!) of all this eastern spirituality stuff and uses, yeah okay i wont go there sorry

[bellamadia]

Read proverbs. It says to gain knowledge and understanding. How would that not lead to Evolution?

I don't agree with your intpretation here, not to mention if you think you are correct then how can you believe in a book that gives you an explination on how man and other things were made via creation and at the same time tells another story that supports evolution? That makes NO SENSE! Also, look up the Catholic Church's stand in teaching evolution in the class room. You are mistaken. Seriously, have you even looked at a bible?

There is a difference between owning nice things and allowing those things to own you and hold you down.
Also, though "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter into Heaven"

If this lets you sleep soundly every night, then you believe with all your heart my friend.

Convert?
Spreading the word is not an attempt to convert. The individual hears The Word, and makes that decision to stagnate or convert as an individual (alone). Your almost suggesting that missionairies put people in shackles until they convert.

No, they don't use shackles, instead they preach damnation if you don't surrender to their beliefs. Much better, muuuuch better.

Your choosing the cynical thoughts, because it is something which you see, that your mind interprets as hypocritical or against the nature of charity and goodness. I'm just saying that Jesus is good. Catholics are just a group of people. Some are good some are bad. DOn't stereotype them.

Nothing I said in that post was a sterotype first of all. Second, Just because I don't accept Jesus as my savior, son of God, etc. does NOT mean I think Jesus wasn't good. He was a good man that had incredible faith. Third, I actually have a VERY beautiful view on the world and spirituality, I am not cynical at all about that. I am, however, against religion, something that separates us from eachother, that says believe as I do or be damned, something that is unaccepting, close minded, hypocritical... I could go on, but I've said these things in previous posts.

I feel for those that are so close minded. Those that live in fear of damnation, of being judged. Those that are plagued with years of guilt. Those that are so scared of thier own mortality that they will literally blind themselves to other possibilities. Those that seem to be living only to prepare for death.

[Melanos]

sure... catholics... all they believe in is Faith... and every teaching the church has to say Requires Faith not proof. Hence... thats why beliefs are dangerous.....

[swampyfool]

uhm... i just wanted to mention how also in uh. wings or 10 thousand days or something somewhere he says fetch me the spirit the son and the father... emphasis on how their seperate..and mormons believe that God Jesus Christ and the Spirit are three seperate entities that are one in purpouse, not relevant at all.. maybe not interesting at all.. i just thought that it was interesting that there were any openly religious statements refrences whatever that didnt seem to be sarcastic/masked with sarcasim espically ones from i dont know how else to describe them accept "main stream" religions..which to me is just a consollidation(sp?!) of all this eastern spirituality stuff and uses, yeah okay i wont go there sorry
I don't mean to be an ass, but could you maybe proofread this shit before you post it? Maybe a little bit of properly placed punctuation, some sort of sentence structure, maybe a modicum of meaning . . ?

Now that I've read your stream of conciousness eight times, I think that I can understand some of it. You are talking about the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), and while the morons- er, Mormons (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)- may have coopted this concept, it is Catholic in origin. Also, I think that you are missing the boat on characterizing Maynard's tone on the delivery of that lyric in 10,000 Days (Wings Pt. 2). The full context is . . .

You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fists at the gates saying:
"I've come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father.
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended.
It's time now!
My time now!
Give me my, give me my wings!"

With this lyric, Maynard tells his mother that she has lived her life in unparalleled accordance with an oppressive, dogmatic structure; thus the "10,000 days in the fire" that she reaped as a reward gives her the right (in Maynard's expressed opinion) to go to heaven and make blasphemous demands of God. While this statement may not be exactly sarcastic, it sure as hell qualifies for sardonic, dry wit.

Allieration rules.

[Melanos]

I see alot of posts about "his" mother here.... mother earth maybe? trying to ascend beyond this world?

[diabz]

Convert?
Spreading the word is not an attempt to convert. The individual hears The Word, and makes that decision to stagnate or convert as an individual (alone). Your almost suggesting that missionairies put people in shackles until they convert.

Your choosing the cynical thoughts, because it is something which you see, that your mind interprets as hypocritical or against the nature of charity and goodness (The priest with nice things). He might be evil who knows. I'm just saying that Jesus is good. Catholics are just a group of people. Some are good some are bad. DOn't stereotype them.
No, they don't use shackles, instead they preach damnation if you don't surrender to their beliefs. Much better, muuuuch better.

haha agreed wholeheartedly. it's funny how much of my incoherent "god" bashing came from the arrogant nature of deliverance... make the decision to stagnate or convert as an individual? excuse me, i don't feel i've done anything wrong by just being born. i don't have a guilty conscience, do you? is that why you beg for salvation? what is about your life that makes you feel so inadequate? regardless, this isn't meant to be a stab at anybody.

[swampyfool]

I don't agree with your intpretation here, not to mention if you think you are correct then how can you believe in a book that gives you an explination on how man and other things were made via creation and at the same time tells another story that supports evolution? That makes NO SENSE! Also, look up the Catholic Church's stand in teaching evolution in the class room. You are mistaken. Seriously, have you even looked at a bible?
Actually, the Catholic Church has repeatedly stated that a science classroom is not the place to teach theological ideas such as Creationism (I was surprised when Benedict reissued this proclamaition, but he did). As for the bible having contradictory stories, that's par for the course in a metaphorical text (which the Christian bible undoubtably is). It's akin to Maynard using Catholic imagery to illustrate a theme, even though his prior works indicate that he holds the church (Catholic or otherwise) in contemptuous esteem. Is that contradictory? Yes. Does it discredit anything that he has said? No.

I'm not saying that the church is beyond reproach (it's not), rather that the bible is not such a bad thing. Sure, it has been used as tool to promote and propagate an oppressive, authoritarian, dogmatic regime; but analyzed outside the stigma of Christianity, the bible is nothing more than a mythological collection of parables with the intention of illustrating a better way for life (a glorified Aesop's Fables, if you will). Obviously, many of the stories are outdated, like stories that say women need the protection of a man- back in those days, a woman making a journey alone was an easy target; and some are just evil, like stories that say rebellious teens should be stoned to death or disobedient wives should be sold into slavery. These negative examples have caused great suffering in the scope of human history, and this impact cannot be ignored. However, many of the stories contained in the bible are timeless and benevolent in threir application to everyday life.

If one reads past the threats of eternal damnation in Christian mythology (treating it like metaphor), similarly to the way one reads past the horrible fates of Prometheus and Epimetheus in Greek Deistic mythology, one can glean much about the civilaizations that spawned the text through their teachings on life in accordance with a higher law. And the higher law suggested through Christianity isn't so bad- not perfect, but not so bad. Catholic leadership has spoken out against the current war in Iraq (and past ones, too). Even in the pre-reform era, there are numerous examples of influential Catholic leaders decrying the use of Catholic dogma to marginalize, brutalize and enslave the natives who stood in the way European progress in the exploration and subsequent colonization of the Americas. The conquistadores, of course, found ways to manipulate these proclamations to their advantage. The fact is that the biblical word of god, as percieved by many who have studied it their whole lives, mandates a position contrary to war and arbitrary destruction.

Obviously, this is not the only interpretation that has come form the bible, but maniacs will find outlets for their mania wherever they can be located; and charismatic maniacs can exploit dogmatic structure on the grand level to outlet their mania. Regardless of the existence of Christian dogmatic structure, maniacs are still maniacs, tyrrants are still tyrrants, assholes are still assholes; and all would have found alternate ways to manifest their evils. But if one reads the bible without regard for the authoritarian structures, it actually can take on the air of an enlightened text (at moments).

I feel for those that are so close minded. Those that live in fear of damnation, of being judged. Those that are plagued with years of guilt. Those that are so scared of thier own mortality that they will literally blind themselves to other possibilities. Those that seem to be living only to prepare for death.
I couldn't agree more with this point.

[bellamadia]

Actually, the Catholic Church has repeatedly stated that a science classroom is not the place to teach theological ideas such as Creationism (I was surprised when Benedict reissued this proclamaition, but he did). As for the bible having contradictory stories, that's par for the course in a metaphorical text (which the Christian bible undoubtably is). It's akin to Maynard using Catholic imagery to illustrate a theme, even though his prior works indicate that he holds the church (Catholic or otherwise) in contemptuous esteem. Is that contradictory? Yes. Does it discredit anything that he has said? No.=.

I 'm not sure if you were trying to express an opposing view to me, but actually I think what you are saying above supports what I was saying. Catholics believe in Creationism and it shouldn't be taught in school. Yes, that's my point. They also say that evolution shouldn't be taught either. And you also supoort my point by talking about the bible as Metaphorical text. And I agree with you on the Maynard comment.

[paraflux]

Well, the catholics agreed that evolution was part of God's plan, why would they say that evolution shouldnt be taught in schools? That's pretty ridiculous to think that they would.

[bellamadia]

Well, the catholics agreed that evolution was part of God's plan, why would they say that evolution shouldnt be taught in schools? That's pretty ridiculous to think that they would.

They said that it shouldn't be taught as an alternative to Creationism. Catholics believe in Creationism. Period. They strongly believe that Adam and Eve were created as stated in the bible and the world we know came from nothing and God created it. They do not have comment on scientific theroies of evolution other than saying that if things (man, creatures, etc.) evolved from one another over time then it was all part of God's plan. Of course they would say that.

[paraflux]

Um, then, that means that the theory of evolution makes the story of creation metaphorical and not literal. It's the Protestants who dont see anything but literalism in the bible, not the catholics.

[bellamadia]

I'm not saying that the church is beyond reproach (it's not), rather that the bible is not such a bad thing. Sure, it has been used as tool to promote and propagate an oppressive, authoritarian, dogmatic regime; but analyzed outside the stigma of Christianity, the bible is nothing more than a mythological collection of parables with the intention of illustrating a better way for life (a glorified Aesop's Fables, if you will). Obviously, many of the stories are outdated, like stories that say women need the protection of a man- back in those days, a woman making a journey alone was an easy target; and some are just evil, like stories that say rebellious teens should be stoned to death or disobedient wives should be sold into slavery. These negative examples have caused great suffering in the scope of human history, and this impact cannot be ignored. However, many of the stories contained in the bible are timeless and benevolent in threir application to everyday life.

If one reads past the threats of eternal damnation in Christian mythology (treating it like metaphor), similarly to the way one reads past the horrible fates of Prometheus and Epimetheus in Greek Deistic mythology, one can glean much about the civilaizations that spawned the text through their teachings on life in accordance with a higher law. And the higher law suggested through Christianity isn't so bad- not perfect, but not so bad. Catholic leadership has spoken out against the current war in Iraq (and past ones, too). Even in the pre-reform era, there are numerous examples of influential Catholic leaders decrying the use of Catholic dogma to marginalize, brutalize and enslave the natives who stood in the way European progress in the exploration and subsequent colonization of the Americas. The conquistadores, of course, found ways to manipulate these proclamations to their advantage. The fact is that the biblical word of god, as percieved by many who have studied it their whole lives, mandates a position contrary to war and arbitrary destruction.

Obviously, this is not the only interpretation that has come form the bible, but maniacs will find outlets for their mania wherever they can be located; and charismatic maniacs can exploit dogmatic structure on the grand level to outlet their mania. Regardless of the existence of Christian dogmatic structure, maniacs are still maniacs, tyrrants are still tyrrants, assholes are still assholes; and all would have found alternate ways to manifest their evils. But if one reads the bible without regard for the authoritarian structures, it actually can take on the air of an enlightened text (at moments).


I agree with you 100% by the way. The bible, like the Tao Che Ching, the Tipitaka, etc., is a book of stories, theories, idealisms, metaphors, suggesting how we should live, die, etc. One should read all of these texts just for the sake of opening your mind and learning. It's those that take these words as facts, force them upon others and alienate and shun others that don't believe as they do. I think that is the exact opposite of what "god" or the "force behind all things" or whatever intended to do. Or at least it should be in my mind.

[bellamadia]

Um, then, that means that the theory of evolution makes the story of creation metaphorical and not literal. It's the Protestants who dont see anything but literalism in the bible, not the catholics.

Sorry but your "logic" has lost me here.

[bellamadia]

On another note. We are all fallible creatures blessed and cursed with a conscious mind and a sense of our own mortality . Therefore, we desperately search for a meaning, a reason and an answer to give us some comfort. We became so self important that we had to create something that gave us a sense of purpose for our lives. We had to set up a system of morals and guidelines of what was right or wrong because man would cease to exist without it. Religion was man's way of doing all of this.

Theoretically, it was a beautiful idea. But that to was distorted by man and their self importance. This has lead to people being scared the hell to think that there isn't a reason for our lives or the things that happen to us. That tragedy doesn't have some bigger explanation. That there is no one up there or out there listening to our prayers and hearing us beg a plead for things as many of us do. That death isn't the end of us and that we are so important that we continue on forever. Religion was forced to make us feel scared and guilty for questioning it, for considering any other option. See, it's awfully hard to control people if they aren't afraid, so Religion has to create repercussions for not obeying or for wandering from the flock.

Without getting into my own beliefs I will say this. If you are able to open your mind and get past the scariness of those thoughts, you may finally become enlightened to what you feel is truth inside you. The liberation you feel after doing so is all the proof you need.

[XEFOS]

After reading the lyrics i thought there was some sort of reference to Noahs Ark.

[swampyfool]

I 'm not sure if you were trying to express an opposing view to me, but actually I think what you are saying above supports what I was saying. Catholics believe in Creationism and it shouldn't be taught in school. Yes, that's my point. They also say that evolution shouldn't be taught either. And you also supoort my point by talking about the bible as Metaphorical text. And I agree with you on the Maynard comment.
No, we are in disagreement on this point. The Catholic Church endorses the teaching of evolution in the science classroom (my Dad just took a job teaching computer science at a Catholic School, and they teach evolution there). They are opposed to any effort to teach creationism in the science classroom, maintaining that creationism is a theological construct, and should be advanced solely in that context. They have thus acknowledged the metaphorical nature of the bible by endorsing a plurality in the way the genesis of mankind should be taught. It's the Evangelists (primarily) that want to introduce notions of "inteligent design" into the scientific curriculum- NOT the Catholics.

[swampyfool]

After reading the lyrics i thought there was some sort of reference to Noahs Ark.
Huh? I don't hear mention of animals (as mokeys clearly relates to humans), nor is their mention of a flood. I'm not saying that you are wrong; please do expound upon your assertion, as I would like to know what particular lyrics lead you to that connection.

[bellamadia]

No, we are in disagreement on this point. The Catholic Church endorses the teaching of evolution in the science classroom (my Dad just took a job teaching computer science at a Catholic School, and they teach evolution there). They are opposed to any effort to teach creationism in the science classroom, maintaining that creationism is a theological construct, and should be advanced solely in that context. They have thus acknowledged the metaphorical nature of the bible by endorsing a plurality in the way the genesis of mankind should be taught. It's the Evangelists (primarily) that want to introduce notions of "inteligent design" into the scientific curriculum- NOT the Catholics.

I don't doubt the story of your father, however that was not my experience when I taught religious education 8 years ago (yes, I taught religious education one year in the place of a family member that could not do it) It was also discussed with the preist that is marrying me in one of my meetings the other day. Either way, I think ever parish, diocese is different. And I am not disagreeing with the other part of your post, but I still stand on a previous post on this subject. Check out catholic.com, I think that's the site.

[PriceisRight]

I'm so glad I'm a moravian. We're the happy median between catholics and baptists. Plus we make the cookies.

[STORMCROW1031]

I'm so glad I'm a moravian. We're the happy median between catholics and baptists. Plus we make the cookies.
I like cookies!

[PriceisRight]

I like cookies!

Hellz yeah!

[Melanos]

Beliefs ..... arent they like buttholes? we all have one and they stink?

[PriceisRight]

Beliefs ..... arent they like buttholes? we all have one and they stink?

...no.....that wasn't even near smart.

By saying that you say anything you believe in is wrong.

Gravity is wrong?

[SurfStoned!]

At a concert Maynard had this statement and I think it pretty much sums up the debate:
"There are a lot of people throughout history that have had moments of clarity, and they shared those moments. Entire religions were then founded out of these principles. Just simple things like unity, our connection with each other, evolving thoughts, choosing compassion over fear, very, very pure ideas. But then what happens is some asshole tries to make some money, or gain some power on it. You end up having these world religions with all those things that were talked about by Buddha, Gandhi, Krishna, Jesus. But these ideas get fucked up cause these people put their fingers in it and fuck it all up. This next song is about those assholes."
Now I'm gonna speak for myself on this one, but what I think seems to coincide with what Maynard thinks (judging on this statement and others). I think these people that Maynard speaks of had messages that should be universally accepted, but not universally forced on others. I think a dangerous line is crossed the moment an idea becomes a belief. Ideas can be changed and can only help when we need them. Beliefs have been the reason for countless wars and social inequalities. Including and especially Christian religious beliefs.

Fantastic! I believe you. I believe in you.

[jonboy]

Thank you for your comment. But with all due respect I'm hearing a lot of close-minded people who refuse to accept or even consider that Maynard is now a Catholic.

Doesn't Tool encourage people to be open-minded? What would Maynard say about I comment of the form "That's not true, but I can't explain why?"

I have never met an open minded catholic yet

[bellamadia]

I have never met an open minded catholic yet

Well, there are open minded Catholics out there, but they aren't truely Catholic if they are. The logic is that if you consider yourself a particular religion, then the idea of faith is that you believe in that religion and that relgion only. If you are open minded to other ideas, then you are not really of that faith.

That said, people of any religion should respect others beliefs, and many obviously do not.

Both of the above are true with all religions, not just Catholicism.

[swampyfool]

Well, there are open minded Catholics out there, but they aren't truely Catholic if they are. The logic is that if you consider yourself a particular religion, then the idea of faith is that you believe in that religion and that relgion only. If you are open minded to other ideas, then you are not really of that faith.

That said, people of any religion should respect others beliefs, and many obviously do not.

Both of the above are true with all religions, not just Catholicism.
Now, if we could just convince the "open-minded Catholics" that they aren't really Catholic . . .

[DON IOTAE]

it's just a matter of time.

[DON IOTAE]

Now, if we could just convince the "open-minded Catholics" that they aren't really Catholic . . .
Just a matter of time.

edit: sorry for the double post.

[bellamadia]

yes, please open my penial gland and let me see your way, for mine is not devine to yours. http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=52925

On the contrary TOOLHEAD. I (and many of us) respect YOUR religion as YOUR choice and as right for YOU.... or anyone else.

However, the idea of being faithful to a religion means that you fully believe in your faith and you do not believe in any other options out there. ie. If you are Catholic, you believe in Jesus, the only son of God, born to the virgin Mary, etc. You cannot and would not be open minded to the fact that perhaps Jesus was not the son of God and the Jews were correct, or that we may not go to heaven, but instead be reincarnated as the Buddhists believe. If you ARE in fact open to this, then you are not truly a Catholic. You may believe in some Cathloic ideas, but you are not Catholic.

If you say you are of a particular religion then it is not a pick and choose menu; It's not your religion only when it's convenient to you; It's not a nice idea that you think might be possible.

That is how most people of any religion have been labeled hypocritical.

[DON IOTAE]

bellamadia's got a point. But I hate the black and white, religion wise. let's just pick out the best from all of them and be done with it.

[swampyfool]

yes, please open my penial gland and let me see your way, for mine is not devine to yours. http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=52925
Dude, I'm not mocking you (or any other open-minded Catholics), but Catholicism in it's current incarnation really sucks. Individual people are destroyed by Catholic dogma; families are destroyed by Catholic dogma; communities are destroyed by Catholic dogma; nations are destroyed by Catholic dogma; and for some reason, "open-minded Catholics" see their way clear to alligning themselves with that destructive dogma. The "open-minded Catholic" may not live or propagate the negative, divisive aspects of Catholic dogma; but when such a person names oneself "Catholic," they certainly give credence to those divisive negativities. The things that the "open-minded Catholic" loves about the Catholic Church are not exclusive to Catholicism; and the "open-minded Catholic" can still find a life that satisfies these loves without supporting the intolerance (women are less godly than, and thus inferior to, men; homosexuals deserve damnation; etc.) of Catholicism. Perhaps, the "open-minded Catholic" can find a more fulfilling life free of such distasteful advocacies. However, as long as the "open-minded Catholic" decides to continue this allegiance, the gravity of the Catholic cause- and thus Catholic intolerance- will be bouyed not only by the blind sheep of the flock, but also by a cross-section of people who do not support such intolerance- who in fact, would like to see such evil removed from the world. It just seems to me that "open-minded Catholics" do themselves an enormous disservice by not moving away from an archaic structure that propagates bigotry and inequality; by not moving toward a new framework that allows for the unyielding love of their savior to extend to all reaches of life. It also does the rest of us- those who do not believe- a giant disservice, as it forces all discussion of new ideas into the stagnation of the possible ramifications that they may have when viewed against the implied ethos of religious scholars who have been dead for sixteen centuries.

In short, it is long past time for these "open-minded Catholics" to either foment a new, drastic reformation of Catholicism, reconstructing the dogma in the mold of tolerance and unity; or to move on from the archaic structure and form a new movement that combines the positive aspects of Catholicism with the ideas of tolerance and unity that make them "open-minded." Otherwise, the voice of the "open-minded Catholic" becomes just one more drowned amongst a chorus that has echoed with intolerance, bigotry, inequality, division, opression and violence for damn near two millenia. POOP OR GET OFF THE POT.

[bellamadia]

Yes true, But I read alot and I try to view other peoples aspects on religion . I find it interesting. I do not post or tell others what to believe.

Understood. Be clear, there is a huge difference in being interested in what other religions are about, and considering them a possibility.

Most priests, clergy, etc. are required to study other religions to understand them. That is not the same as considering another religion as a possibilty.

[bellamadia]

bellamadia's got a point. But I hate the black and white, religion wise. let's just pick out the best from all of them and be done with it.

Well that's not a bad idea, but that's not a religion. Nor should it be. Once you give it a name, all of the wars, greed, and bullshit will follow.

[bellamadia]

Dude, I'm not mocking you (or any other open-minded Catholics), but Catholicism in it's current incarnation really sucks. Individual people are destroyed by Catholic dogma; families are destroyed by Catholic dogma; communities are destroyed by Catholic dogma; nations are destroyed by Catholic dogma; and for some reason, "open-minded Catholics" see their way clear to alligning themselves with that destructive dogma. The "open-minded Catholic" may not live or propagate the negative, divisive aspects of Catholic dogma; but when such a person names oneself "Catholic," they certainly give credence to those divisive negativities. The things that the "open-minded Catholic" loves about the Catholic Church are not exclusive to Catholicism; and the "open-minded Catholic" can still find a life that satisfies these loves without supporting the intolerance (women are less godly than, and thus inferior to, men; homosexuals deserve damnation; etc.) of Catholicism. Perhaps, the "open-minded Catholic" can find a more fulfilling life free of such distasteful advocacies. However, as long as the "open-minded Catholic" decides to continue this allegiance, the gravity of the Catholic cause- and thus Catholic intolerance- will be bouyed not only by the blind sheep of the flock, but also by a cross-section of people who do not support such intolerance- who in fact, would like to see such evil removed from the world. It just seems to me that "open-minded Catholics" do themselves an enormous disservice by not moving away from an archaic structure that propagates bigotry and inequality; by not moving toward a new framework that allows for the unyielding love of their savior to extend to all reaches of life. It also does the rest of us- those who do not believe- a giant disservice, as it forces all discussion of new ideas into the stagnation of the possible ramifications that they may have when viewed against the implied ethos of religious scholars who have been dead for sixteen centuries.

In short, it is long past time for these "open-minded Catholics" to either foment a new, drastic reformation of Catholicism, reconstructing the dogma in the mold of tolerance and unity; or to move on from the archaic structure and form a new movement that combines the positive aspects of Catholicism with the ideas of tolerance and unity that make them "open-minded." Otherwise, the voice of the "open-minded Catholic" becomes just one more drowned amongst a chorus that has echoed with intolerance, bigotry, inequality, division, opression and violence for damn near two millenia. POOP OR GET OFF THE POT.

Exactly!

[DON IOTAE]

Well that's not a bad idea, but that's not a religion. Nor should it be. Once you give it a name, all of the wars, greed, and bullshit will follow.
Then again, there's no other choice, is there?

[wearethestories]

This song has nothing to do with religious beliefs other than the word angels. Get over it... please
really?


-mentions GOD/FATHER (Christian theology)
-mentions FREE WILL (argument over FW/determinism... or, for the theologically savvy... Armenienism/Calvanism)
-mentions EDEN/HOLY GARDEN (Genesis/Creation)
-mentions humans as MONKEYS (you can argue that that's in reference to evolution, but in that case it'd be against most mainstream religious beliefs)
-mentions RIGHT IN TWO (which can be argued to stand for SIN and the entering of evil into the world while Adam/Eve were in the "holy garden")


just some thoughts...

[bellamadia]

really?


-mentions GOD/FATHER (Christian theology)
-mentions FREE WILL (argument over FW/determinism... or, for the theologically savvy... Armenienism/Calvanism)
-mentions EDEN/HOLY GARDEN (Genesis/Creation)
-mentions humans as MONKEYS (you can argue that that's in reference to evolution, but in that case it'd be against most mainstream religious beliefs)
-mentions RIGHT IN TWO (which can be argued to stand for SIN and the entering of evil into the world while Adam/Eve were in the "holy garden")


just some thoughts...

LOL yeah that was just some fucktard that posted that... I'm sure to get us riled up. I'm not taking the bait.

[jonboy]

That said, people of any religion should respect others beliefs, and many obviously do not.

The problem with the world

[encrusted]

Understood. Be clear, there is a huge difference in being interested in what other religions are about, and considering them a possibility.

Most priests, clergy, etc. are required to study other religions to understand them. That is not the same as considering another religion as a possibilty.

Well put and so true.

I'll add that anyone who thinks or preaches that the act of enlightening yourself about different religions is tantamount to blasphemy or amounts to conversion does so from ignorance and fear.

[escapeme]

could you be any more un-fun?

LOL

[bellamadia]

You guys got me all wrong. I'm not even catholic. Never said I was. You guys make valued points. Its an aged old battle. People will always disagree. No need to preach on a web site was the only point I was making ( tried to make) . I like many points that you are making , bellamadia too.

No worries, I get what you are saying.

[MOMOwheeler]

Catholics ..... also believe in evolution.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism......

Catholism is unique among Christian religion in believing that one achieves salvation through faith and good works. All other Christian religions that I know of teach that one gets into heaven by faith in Christ alone.

No offence bro but you are so far off here that its not even worth the convo.


P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.

You may want to talk to your bishop first before you start teaching other people the wrong stuff.

[RoballicA]

I've never understood why Catholics are so strongly criticized in the United States. Aside from all the controversy that surrounds their doctrine, and institution, most of all the teachings, and ideals believed within their church are misunderstood, and misinterpreted, by people who feed off the stigma towards them. I actually spent my entire high school life attending a Catholic school that was run by Christian brothers, and, most of them, well into their 50's and 60's, were very progressive, and highly educated. First of all Catholics are not literalists. The bible is interpreted and discussed. In fact, it was the belief of my Religion teacher during that the time I attended high school that understanding how science conjuncts with God makes faith stronger. Evolution is a fact, this is accepted by Catholics, but that does not mean that scientific revelations should be a detriment to what they believe.

Second of all, what the Vatican states as far as doctrine is concerned is limited to the fact that it is founded on very strict values and traditions. While Catholics are obligated to support the Vatican’s decisions, this does not mean that Catholics believe that gay people are evil, or that the use of condoms needs to be suppressed despite the transmission of deadly virus' in countries that need contraceptives. Because of conflicting politics within the church, along with some highly regarded traditionalists, these doctrines are very hard to change. From what I have seen first hand in my dealings with brothers and priests, many strive for these issues to be settled and encourage and evolution of Catholic doctrine in conjunction with how Jesus’ teachings apply to the world today. Of course, it would be naive of me to think that this is true about all Catholics, and I'm positive that there are just as many religious figures that don't understand the need for progression, and are only hurting the Church's reputation, and the evolution of this religious institution by clinging to tradition.

My point is human's are dual natured, and whether one exams government, or religion, or any other aspect of human society, one will always find both extremes. Hell yes the Catholic church was built on blood, but so is a major part of modern society. I choose not to be a part of organized religion because I don't need it in my life. It's been the cause of a lot of anguish and bloodshed in human history, but for millions of people it has also done a lot of good. Don’t judge something from one perspective please.

[phatfela1]

I agree. He's a catholic. I think it's so funny how so many Tool fans thought Maynard was all anti-religious b/c he made one song commenting on a flaw of organized religion, meanwhile all his other songs involve Buddhism, Kabbalah, Hinduism, and certainly Catholicism, each used in expressing his beliefs. Haha! Point proven! Those who think Tool is anti-religious can now go home.

[bellamadia]

I agree. He's a catholic. I think it's so funny how so many Tool fans thought Maynard was all anti-religious b/c he made one song commenting on a flaw of organized religion, meanwhile all his other songs involve Buddhism, Kabbalah, Hinduism, and certainly Catholicism, each used in expressing his beliefs. Haha! Point proven! Those who think Tool is anti-religious can now go home.

Considering his mother is Catholic, I an sure he was raised Catholic. That is the ONLY extent that he IS a Catholic.

Also, he made way more than 1 song about the flaws of organized religion... have you listened to many TOOL songs? Not to mention he has stated his dislike of organized religion in more than one interview.

Yes, he does use ideas from those relgions to express his beliefs and disbeliefs but you are mistaking spirituality with relgion. There is a BIIIIIIIG difference.

[bellamadia]

I've never understood why Catholics are so strongly criticized in the United States. Aside from all the controversy that surrounds their doctrine, and institution, most of all the teachings, and ideals believed within their church are misunderstood, and misinterpreted, by people who feed off the stigma towards them. I actually spent my entire high school life attending a Catholic school that was run by Christian brothers, and, most of them, well into their 50's and 60's, were very progressive, and highly educated. First of all Catholics are not literalists. The bible is interpreted and discussed. In fact, it was the belief of my Religion teacher during that the time I attended high school that understanding how science conjuncts with God makes faith stronger. Evolution is a fact, this is accepted by Catholics, but that does not mean that scientific revelations should be a detriment to what they believe. .

There is another thread that has some good discussion regarding Catholocism and evolution. I see you are new here, you should check it out. I do not have the same experience as you regarding priests being progressive. And you are correst in saying that the bible should not be read literally, it is allegorical.... for the most part. There is some things that are meant to be taken literally. But claiming that most of it is allegorical and open for interpretation is the only way Christians can get away with keeping in vague enough to remain true to all that could happen in the future. They aren't stupid.


While Catholics are obligated to support the Vatican’s decisions, this does not mean that Catholics believe that gay people are evil, or that the use of condoms needs to be suppressed despite the transmission of deadly virus' in countries that need contraceptives.

Not true. I just went through precana and 3 meetings with 2 different preist for my wedding and much of that was spent telling us why contraceptives are against our religion, IN ALL CASES. It applies to places with disease, over population, etc. The reason is because you are suppose to allow God to decide your fate as it relates to creationism, no exceptions. They also told us how if you are not able to have children, the various methods of assisted fertilization or conception are against our religion. That makes me SICK!

Hell yes the Catholic church was built on blood, but so is a major part of modern society. I choose not to be a part of organized religion because I don't need it in my life. It's been the cause of a lot of anguish and bloodshed in human history, but for millions of people it has also done a lot of good. Don’t judge something from one perspective please.

True.

[walkerw8]

and much of that was spent telling us why contraceptives are against our religion, IN ALL CASES. It applies to places with disease, over population, etc. The reason is because you are suppose to allow God to decide your fate as it relates to creationism, no exceptions.

What if it is God's fate for you to use contraceptives?

[phatfela1]

Considering his mother is Catholic, I an sure he was raised Catholic. That is the ONLY extent that he IS a Catholic.

Also, he made way more than 1 song about the flaws of organized religion... have you listened to many TOOL songs? Not to mention he has stated his dislike of organized religion in more than one interview.

Yes, he does use ideas from those relgions to express his beliefs and disbeliefs but you are mistaking spirituality with relgion. There is a BIIIIIIIG difference.


Listen, I'm gonna give you a word of advice...you need to stop blaming society for your problems, particularly religion. Cause I can see right through you. Oh yeah, religion and spirituality are sooo different, NOT. They are one and the same. Sure there have been corruption, but you all need to stop using these instances to abandon what religion has to offer. Do you know why you all hate religion so much? Because you don't get it! For one reason or another, either it's too hard or appears too weird, you don't have what religious people have and it kills you.

You don't have what Maynard has, who is obviously into many religions, and so you try to point and say how bad it is. Maynard has obviously delved into many religions in his life, and the one he is at now is certainly Christianity. Best believe he has attended religious practice, read the Bible, and prayed. You all really need to get over this. There's nothing anti-religious on this new album, it only speaks in pro religion and how he was "set as he was in his ways and his arrogance" but now that is all gone and he has found truth in Christianity. The April fool's joke was no April Fool's joke! Satan doesn't want you to be spiritual, you're falling for his tactics. We all have the power to beat Satan and not be cast astray.

The final point I will say (and this is going to kill a lot of you) is that spirituality cannot exist independently! It's impossible to not do it collectively. So for all you people who have this idea of being spiritual without any institution --be it of 50 people or 50 million people--, I'll tell you right now...you ain't spiritual.

[M.Luther]

What I've noticed about this song is that it is not constitent with the Southern Baptist beliefs Maynard was raised with. Baptists reject evolution. They also reject Free Will, believing in pre-destination.

It would seem from this song (and 10,000 days) that Maynard has converted to Catholism. Catholics are the big propents of Free Will and they also believe in evolution.

Also note that the Catholic Church took a big stand against the U.S.'s war on the Iraqi people. The last pope released three statements rejecting the concept of pre-emptive war in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism emphasizing the need to give to the needy. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the two great evils of the world are extreme Communism and extreme Capitalism.

Also, in the song 10,000 days he emphasizes that his mother should get into Heaven based on good works that she has performed. Catholism is unique among Christian religion in believing that one achieves salvation through faith and good works. All other Christian religions that I know of teach that one gets into heaven by faith in Christ alone.

P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.

i don't quite get your point, just because the catholic church has disliked with the iraq war, and disagrees with materalism, Doesn't mean Maynard is in anyway gravitating towards catholicism. I think this is a case of you seeing whatever it is you want to see.

[RoballicA]

Not true. I just went through precana and 3 meetings with 2 different preist for my wedding and much of that was spent telling us why contraceptives are against our religion, IN ALL CASES. It applies to places with disease, over population, etc. The reason is because you are suppose to allow God to decide your fate as it relates to creationism, no exceptions. They also told us how if you are not able to have children, the various methods of assisted fertilization or conception are against our religion. That makes me SICK!


Don't miss the point of what I said. While what you are saying is written officially as doctrine, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people who support this unconditionally, there are still many Catholics, along with priests, and christian brothers that believe this is wrong and should be changed. When it becomes a matter of human lives being protected then many Catholics believe contraception should be implemented in cases of disease, despite this being against the doctrine. It's a very current, and on-going debate within the church. The other aspects of this debate in the case of artificial insemination, as you pointed out, are definitely in all cases dissallowed because it is thought that humananity, while responsible to protect human life, should not have the right to tamper with its creation. This of course is not a matter of preservation of life, but a matter of ethical science.

[bellamadia]

What if it is God's fate for you to use contraceptives?

Let me be clear that I don't believe on that... that is what my priest told me. I am not Catholic, just have to get married in the church for the families. I agree with your point here.

[bellamadia]

Don't miss the point of what I said. While what you are saying is written officially as doctrine, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people who support this unconditionally, there are still many Catholics, along with priests, and christian brothers that believe this is wrong and should be changed. When it becomes a matter of human lives being protected then many Catholics believe contraception should be implemented in cases of disease, despite this being against the doctrine. It's a very current, and on-going debate within the church. The other aspects of this debate in the case of artificial insemination, as you pointed out, are definitely in all cases dissallowed because it is thought that humananity, while responsible to protect human life, should not have the right to tamper with its creation. This of course is not a matter of preservation of life, but a matter of ethical science.

I understand, you are correct. There is a lot of difference between priests, dioceses, etc. There is a lot of tension regarding these issues. My experience has been on the side of not wanting change, and it saddens me. I hear ya though.

[bellamadia]

Listen, I'm gonna give you a word of advice...you need to stop blaming society for your problems, particularly religion. Cause I can see right through you. Oh yeah, religion and spirituality are sooo different, NOT. They are one and the same. Sure there have been corruption, but you all need to stop using these instances to abandon what religion has to offer. Do you know why you all hate religion so much? Because you don't get it! For one reason or another, either it's too hard or appears too weird, you don't have what religious people have and it kills you.

You don't have what Maynard has, who is obviously into many religions, and so you try to point and say how bad it is. Maynard has obviously delved into many religions in his life, and the one he is at now is certainly Christianity. Best believe he has attended religious practice, read the Bible, and prayed. You all really need to get over this. There's nothing anti-religious on this new album, it only speaks in pro religion and how he was "set as he was in his ways and his arrogance" but now that is all gone and he has found truth in Christianity. The April fool's joke was no April Fool's joke! Satan doesn't want you to be spiritual, you're falling for his tactics. We all have the power to beat Satan and not be cast astray.

The final point I will say (and this is going to kill a lot of you) is that spirituality cannot exist independently! It's impossible to not do it collectively. So for all you people who have this idea of being spiritual without any institution --be it of 50 people or 50 million people--, I'll tell you right now...you ain't spiritual.


I respect your opinion on religion.... the issue I have is that you state your POV so offensively and worst of all, assume you know me (us). Please don't attack me, PLEASE do NOT pretend that you know me. If you read my other 300 and something posts, you'd know that what you THINK you know about me is incorrect. You say "you ALL need to...." so perhaps you are grouping me with people that you think I am like. But DON'T. I have some of the normal problems many people have every once in a while, money, bosses, family, etc. Above and beyond that, I have a pretty easy going and happy life. I have NEVER blamed relgion or society for them, never!!! Nor do my posts insinuate that I do.

I do understand a lot about some religions... not all... and not everything. I get the idea and the picture. My decision to not associate myself with one religion is NOT because I don't get it or it overwhelms me, but because I think relgion SEPARATES us from the way, god, the force... whatever! We should be as one, not divided. There are other reasons, but I'm not going to regurgitate it all here.

You see some of us as HATING relgion but you're taking it the wrong way; You don't understand what it is that we are against. Be open minded and fair. I agree that most of us take into consideration what we know of other relgions to start forming our beliefs and ideas.... but I don't beileve spirituality can't exist without an institution whatsoever and they are NOT one in the same.

[STORMCROW1031]

Listen, I'm gonna give you a word of advice...you need to stop blaming society for your problems, particularly religion. Cause I can see right through you. Oh yeah, religion and spirituality are sooo different, NOT. They are one and the same. Sure there have been corruption, but you all need to stop using these instances to abandon what religion has to offer. Do you know why you all hate religion so much? Because you don't get it! For one reason or another, either it's too hard or appears too weird, you don't have what religious people have and it kills you.

You don't have what Maynard has, who is obviously into many religions, and so you try to point and say how bad it is. Maynard has obviously delved into many religions in his life, and the one he is at now is certainly Christianity. Best believe he has attended religious practice, read the Bible, and prayed. You all really need to get over this. There's nothing anti-religious on this new album, it only speaks in pro religion and how he was "set as he was in his ways and his arrogance" but now that is all gone and he has found truth in Christianity. The April fool's joke was no April Fool's joke! Satan doesn't want you to be spiritual, you're falling for his tactics. We all have the power to beat Satan and not be cast astray.

The final point I will say (and this is going to kill a lot of you) is that spirituality cannot exist independently! It's impossible to not do it collectively. So for all you people who have this idea of being spiritual without any institution --be it of 50 people or 50 million people--, I'll tell you right now...you ain't spiritual.
Spirituality resides ENTIRELY between the individual and the unfathomable.

[Caduceus11]

wow...intelligent conversation on a topic I love. I agree with the previous post about the non-respect of others beliefs IS a major problem in the world, tho I am not so bold as to say its THE problem.
In any case, here's what I believe. I do not have a problem with belief in higher powers and some sort of creator. The 'unmoved-mover' something had to start all of this. But my problem lies with ALL religions being so hippocritical in their being so dogmatic. I cannot believe that because a person worships or believes in one god, that they are wrong. We are mortals, we do not know anything. All we can do is study ALL the organized religions and even further to smaller sects. Knowlege is power. I think anyone of us whom have evolved as TOOL fans (the ones of us whom LOVE the new stuff) will agree with that statement. Maynard and the guys have grown, expanded their minds and quite possibley opened their 3rd eye. I am also not so bold as to assume that mine is completly and fully open as I believe that with 2 extra chromosomes you have the 3rd eye only in concept. With this growth, the band has brought spirtuality to the table and knowing that this would spur so much debate among their fans, here we have it in our music. The concept of GOD and spirituality. Its a very sensitive subject because for some reason (in spite of NO religion directing its faithful to arm themselves and hurt others) most of them seem to do just that! So, Maynard has brought this to the table having seen the power of spirituality displayed in his mother. Truth or not, his mother's belief kept her strong throughout. Any intelligent person will see the power of faith. I've had a similar experience in regards to loss of a loved one and have witnessed the power myself. Believe in sects if you will, as for me, I have my own united ideas derived from study of many religions in HUMANITIES class, and personal study....think for yourself, question authority, do your research, we live in an age where any information you desire is at hand....think....learn....evolve....study like a scientist....knowlege is power....TOOL is a great place to start....pry open your third eye....enlighten yourself...You better.....you better LISTEN!!!

[swampyfool]

There's nothing anti-religious on this new album, it only speaks in pro religion and how he was "set as he was in his ways and his arrogance" but now that is all gone and he has found truth in Christianity.
AHEM!

The line is . . .
"Set as I AM in my ways and my arrogance . . ."
not . . .
"Set as I WAS in my ways and my arrogance . . ."

Nothing against religion . . .

"Ignorant fibbers in the congregation . . ."
" . . . wave your fist at the gate . . ."
"Fetch me the spirit, the son and the father . . ."
"Give me my wings!"

Because ignorance is a good characteristic; and there is nothing blasphemous about waving your fist at god to make demands superceding his judgement; or inverting the order of the holy trinity as you demand that they be fetched; or in the trivialization of the Christian concept of human ascension into heaven down to the pop-culture notion of becoming an angel . . .

Just because Maynard doesn't attack religion in this album with the fervored vitriole of his past albums is no reason to assume that he has become Christian or Catholic or any other such nonsense. The album is called "10,000 Days" in order to memorialize his mother's struggle with paralysis and to eulogize her depth of spirituality- a firm and devout belief in Christian dogma. So, even if Maynard still despises the oppressive nature of organized religion (which he does), isn't it entirely plausible- or rather probable- that in dedicating an album to her, he wouldn't be as motivated to express that on this album? It was an April Fool's Day joke, else why would he have called Jesus "a punk" when aproached for comment on the whole debacle? You're just wrong, dude. Maynard isn't Catholic. Nor will he be.

[swampyfool]

Cause I can see right through you. Oh yeah, religion and spirituality are sooo different, NOT. They are one and the same.
<Rimshot!>

[swampyfool]

Do you know why you all hate religion so much? Because you don't get it! For one reason or another, either it's too hard or appears too weird, you don't have what religious people have and it kills you.
<RIMSHOT!>

[swampyfool]

The final point I will say (and this is going to kill a lot of you) is that spirituality cannot exist independently! It's impossible to not do it collectively. So for all you people who have this idea of being spiritual without any institution --be it of 50 people or 50 million people--, I'll tell you right now...you ain't spiritual.
<RIMSHOT!>
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAAAHAHAHAA!
WOOOOOOOHOOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA AHAHAAA!

[bellamadia]

AHEM!

The line is . . .
"Set as I AM in my ways and my arrogance . . ."
not . . .
"Set as I WAS in my ways and my arrogance . . ."

Nothing against religion . . .

"Ignorant fibbers in the congregation . . ."
" . . . wave your fist at the gate . . ."
"Fetch me the spirit, the son and the father . . ."
"Give me my wings!"

Because ignorance is a good characteristic; and there is nothing blasphemous about waving your fist at god to make demands superceding his judgement; or inverting the order of the holy trinity as you demand that they be fetched; or in the trivialization of the Christian concept of human ascension into heaven down to the pop-culture notion of becoming an angel . . .

Just because Maynard doesn't attack religion in this album with the fervored vitriole of his past albums is no reason to assume that he has become Christian or Catholic or any other such nonsense. The album is called "10,000 Days" in order to memorialize his mother's struggle with paralysis and to eulogize her depth of spirituality- a firm and devout belief in Christian dogma. So, even if Maynard still despises the oppressive nature of organized religion (which he does), isn't it entirely plausible- or rather probable- that in dedicating an album to her, he wouldn't be as motivated to express that on this album? It was an April Fool's Day joke, else why would he have called Jesus "a punk" when aproached for comment on the whole debacle? You're just wrong, dude. Maynard isn't Catholic. Nor will he be.

RIGHT ON, lol... and your posts after this. :)

[Caduceus11]

oh the dogma!
Why is everyone always so quick to think that what THEY believe in is what is absolute truth? I think that should be anyone's fundamental disdain with organizations like religions. The thing is, in an organization, there are going to be hypocrisies. I myself, do in fact participate (tho not 'religiously'{pun intended}) in an organized religion. Tho I do not accept the ideas and beliefs I am exposed to at church as absolute truth. And I don't know, maybe I'm going to hell for it (thats for all the catholix here). But who am I to say what's fact and fiction where religion is concerned? I am just a guy with an open mind and 3rd eye. If you do as Leary says: "Think for yourself...question authority" you too will realize that even YOUR organized religion, has its own agenda, just like you and me and everyone else. So, I go to church and pray and study the book. I seek knowlege and wisdom. But just because I read something doesn't mean its true. I can write down anything I want...doesn't make it so.
So why? Just because YOU have belief in one aspect of spirituality, don't tell me what can and can't be. I don't really care what you think. Sure its interesting, but you are just another human just like anyone else. So don't tell me that spirituality cannot exist without religion. To me, all these religions are merely clubs that form to serve themselves. Not ALL of them, but enough to generalize.
As far as Maynard is concerned...I would be way off in my belief and impression of him if he were to commit to one of these sects. I don't belief that he is catholic for sure. If he did choose to become a catholic, it be in the name of sarcasm as he would have chosen the most hypocritical christian religion to be a part of.
Stop filling in your questions about Maynard and TOOL with your own personal definitions. Maynard is NOT YOU. If you want to know what Maynard really thinks....YOU BETTER LISTEN....to the music....with your 3rd eye open for a change!

[Caduceus11]

<RIMSHOT!>
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAAAHAHAHAA!
WOOOOOOOHOOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA AHAHAAA!


AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAAAHAHAHAA!
WOOOOOOOHOOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA AHAHAAA


I laugh with you 'pried open....

this kangaroo done hung the guilty with the innocent! ...

[diabz]

*slaps pried five*

well met.

[Caduceus11]

thanks

[walkerw8]

SPO

you quote this line:

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,"

but you leave off the rest:

"Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.
You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one."

Now I'm not going to say that he has found truth in Christianity like the other poster did, but "You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence." My eyes and evidence for WHAT?" If it correlates to the previous line "burden of proof tossed on the believers" It would imply that he has been swayed towards Something.

[swampyfool]

SPO

you quote this line:

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,"

but you leave off the rest:

"Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.
You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one."

Now I'm not going to say that he has found truth in Christianity like the other poster did, but "You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence." My eyes and evidence for WHAT?" If it correlates to the previous line "burden of proof tossed on the believers" It would imply that he has been swayed towards Something.
Good point. It would seem that Judith's being of witness, eyes and evidence is the pivotal sentiment of this climax. However, I believe that the driving plotline of Judith becoming an angel (a misrepresentation of Christian dogma- of blasphemous proportion, depending on the level of anal faith present in the beholder) would indicate that Christianity (as you also point out) is not the direction that Maynard has been swayed toward. I think that our lack of actual, personal connection to Maynard's struggles will probably prevent us from ever knowing the full depth and context of this lyric. My speculation would be that Maynard has been swayed (maybe over a lifetime of scrutiny) toward the virtuous realities that Judith espoused without accepting their religious context. The usage of the term "unconditional one" certainly seems to have implications reaching into the ultimate and divine; and the naming of Judith as such almost seems to imply that Maynard may have accepted his own mother in much the same way that an "open-minded" Christian accepts Jesus- as a personal inspiration and savior. Just my speculative bullshit on the topic.

I love how interconnected the themes on this album are. Here we are, knee-deep in a discussion of lyrical implications from WFM/10KD that sprung quite naturally from the like discussion of such from "Right In Two." This phenomenon is anything but rare, as the 10KD forum is full of exactly such discussions of thematic similarity and continuity. I really think that this album has a flow that is more congruous than any of the previous albums, and I am already chomping at the bit to see how this new trend will carry into their next work. Seems I have already set myself up for a long wait, but If there were no rewards to reap, no loving embrace to see me through this tedious path I've chosen here, I certainly would've walked away by now. Gonna wait it out.

[bellamadia]

Nice little post here.


Ditto Caduceus

[bellamadia]

SPO

you quote this line:

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,"

but you leave off the rest:

"Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.
You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one."

Now I'm not going to say that he has found truth in Christianity like the other poster did, but "You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence." My eyes and evidence for WHAT?" If it correlates to the previous line "burden of proof tossed on the believers" It would imply that he has been swayed towards Something.

Nice thoughts to you and Successfully.

One thing I'm stuck on though, I'm pretty sure it must be "burden of proof tossed upon NON believers. Burden of truth, a legal term, is the obligation to have to proove something. Believers do not have to proove anything because they believe. Non-believers are the ones burdened with this. That line, I think, is a continutation of the line "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance," burdened with the need to proove the existance of a higher power.

I think Successfully brings up a good point when he compares Maynards faith in and love for Judith, to that of Christians to Jesus. Let me elaborate....

Lest we forget, the majority of this song is negative towards Catholocism (organized religion). "Listen to the tales as we... romanticize.... rationalize... none of us have ever been there, not like you...," "Ignorant fibers in the congregation.... none of them could ever hold a candle up to you... "

I think he may be saying that the Catholics base all of their faith on tales, tales of being saved, judgement day, etc. They are worshiping idols that have never been through what his mother went through and remained completely unselfish.

It's as though he is saying... "I don't believe as the ignorant do, the tales are meaningless, they worship false idols.... what I do believe in is YOU. You have been through the worst perils, but remain postive and full of light... To me, you are the TRUE unconditional one (not Jesus). You were the only pure, honest and true being to exist in my eyes. I worship you, because you are all the proof and evidence I need of purity and holiness. And because of this, you are the one that will LEAD ME to the higher power."

He doesn't need to believe in organized relgion because his mother has been his savior, his light, his evidence. She will guide him home.

[swampyfool]

^^^exactly, Bella, exactly^^^

[Caduceus11]

I love how interconnected the themes on this album are......but If there were no rewards to reap, no loving embrace to see me through this tedious path I've chosen here, I certainly would've walked away by now. Gonna wait it out.



Agreed! I love it. I just get so annoyed when people call themselves a tool-fan yet, do not have even the slightest hint of what its all about....

They told us to "Spiral Out!"...why have so few of us done it>?

'Ride the spiral to the end...it may just go where no one's been!'

[BlanketEffect]

Wonderful insight, Bella.

[bellamadia]

Thanks guys!

[2and46]

Thank you for your comment. But with all due respect I'm hearing a lot of close-minded people who refuse to accept or even consider that Maynard is now a Catholic.

Doesn't Tool encourage people to be open-minded? What would Maynard say about I comment of the form "That's not true, but I can't explain why?"

I considered it...for a couple of nano seconds. Look, it's not close-minded to believe Maynard is not a Catholic. Taking interviews and lyrics into account, he's been very consistent in his disdain for organized religion. I see where you're coming from, and I don't think it's out of line to suggest what you're suggesting, but Maynard is not a Catholic. This would be the most jaw-dropping event in TOOL history.

[walkerw8]

I'm pretty sure it must be "burden of proof tossed upon NON believers.

You know, I gave it a another listen and you may be on to something. It sounds a whole lot more like NON than it does THE. I generally agree with yours and SPOs fine analyses and interpretations. However, let me also say this: I wasn't too surprised to hear the words "unconditional one" in this song because it is often said that the only form of unconditional love (between) humans is that which exists between a mother and her child. For all I know it could even be further reduced to the statement that the only form of unconditional love that is given is from a mother to her child (Granted not all mothers and children share such wonderful relationships but that's a story for another day.) Withing implying any deeper meaning that COULD well be what Maynard is getting at.

They told us to "Spiral Out!"...why have so few of us done it>?

Why have so few of us done it Caduceus? Done what??? Learn to Swim??? Let us not be spoonfed the wisdom and knowledge provided by the Reverend Maynard. This is something that each individual must stumble upon or seek out on his or her own. We all have life experiences and for a lack of a better phrase each individual will benefit most from "enlightenment" if it is reached on his or her own terms at his or her own pace, not that at which Reverend Maynard commands "Spiral Out" so let it be written, so let it be done. ;) I really don't think it fits well with the Philosophy of Tool to tell us, the supposed sheep of the four chosen ones, to do anything, maybe other than to "learn to swim"

[Caduceus11]

Why have so few of us done it Caduceus? Done what???"


Done what>? Grown. Come to the realization of what actually IS truth. Learn, expand your minds. I by no means consider any thing Maynard, or TOOL says as a decree. To me its intellegent, tested and proven methods for introspect and self-realization; empowerment. I have to say this over and over again in my life, and here is no exception, I should just keep this on my clipboard for fascilitated repetition of myself. DO NOT FILL IN ANY BLANKS THAT MAY ARISE IN REGARDS TO SOMETHING i HAVE WRITTEN HERE WITH YOUR OWN PERSONAL IMPRESSIONS. If something i said confuses you or you are unclear, just ask, I will gladly fill in the blanks for you.

While you say that each individual must seek this on their own...yes, I agree. My irritation lies in the fact that the masses will not even attempt. I am not disagreeing with you at all, do not confuse that. Your interpretation of what I've said was where the fault lies. All I am saying is that the lyrics in this most powerful music should be teaching you things; new ideas, concepts, beliefs. As with what I've said to you about filling in the blanks with your own ideas, that's what we all tend to do when we try and decide what Maynards words are actually telling us. That is ok, but we must also realize that our own personal experiences may skew our interpretations. ANd that too is ok, thats why, regardless of the difference of intimate details of our own situations, the music is our common ground. We all bleed our own lives into what Maynard is saying to us. That's why its so hard to REALLY agree on what a song meant to the artists because its written so well that it is open to interpretation. That's the beauty of it.


So 'pull your head on out and give a listen' Maynard has given us many useful TOOLS to learn from and use in our everyday lives; yet makes no command. Take it as advice if you will. Don't come in here pissing and moaning that TOOL isn't agressive for you, or that you KNOW that Maynard is a Catholic. You haven't heard a thing he's said if you beleive that's even slightly possible.....

[2and46]

Done what>? Grown. Come to the realization of what actually IS truth. Learn, expand your minds. I by no means consider any thing Maynard, or TOOL says as a decree. To me its intellegent, tested and proven methods for introspect and self-realization; empowerment. I have to say this over and over again in my life, and here is no exception, I should just keep this on my clipboard for fascilitated repetition of myself. DO NOT FILL IN ANY BLANKS THAT MAY ARISE IN REGARDS TO SOMETHING i HAVE WRITTEN HERE WITH YOUR OWN PERSONAL IMPRESSIONS. If something i said confuses you or you are unclear, just ask, I will gladly fill in the blanks for you.

While you say that each individual must seek this on their own...yes, I agree. My irritation lies in the fact that the masses will not even attempt. I am not disagreeing with you at all, do not confuse that. Your interpretation of what I've said was where the fault lies. All I am saying is that the lyrics in this most powerful music should be teaching you things; new ideas, concepts, beliefs. As with what I've said to you about filling in the blanks with your own ideas, that's what we all tend to do when we try and decide what Maynards words are actually telling us. That is ok, but we must also realize that our own personal experiences may skew our interpretations. ANd that too is ok, thats why, regardless of the difference of intimate details of our own situations, the music is our common ground. We all bleed our own lives into what Maynard is saying to us. That's why its so hard to REALLY agree on what a song meant to the artists because its written so well that it is open to interpretation. That's the beauty of it.


So 'pull your head on out and give a listen' Maynard has given us many useful TOOLS to learn from and use in our everyday lives; yet makes no command. Take it as advice if you will. Don't come in here pissing and moaning that TOOL isn't agressive for you, or that you KNOW that Maynard is a Catholic. You haven't heard a thing he's said if you beleive that's even slightly possible.....

I don't think I've read a finer post than this...EVER. Succinct and spot on. Maynard would smile at Caduceus, and offer him a very fine glass of Merlot (although I have a thing for fine Pinot Grigio).

[raz1iss]

Im a catholic. Im a Tool fan.

[bellamadia]

Done what>? Grown. Come to the realization of what actually IS truth. Learn, expand your minds...........
So 'pull your head on out and give a listen' Maynard has given us many useful TOOLS to learn from and use in our everyday lives; yet makes no command. Take it as advice if you will. Don't come in here pissing and moaning that TOOL isn't agressive for you, or that you KNOW that Maynard is a Catholic. You haven't heard a thing he's said if you beleive that's even slightly possible.....


Nice post Caduceus!

[swampyfool]

Im a catholic. Im a Tool fan.
WE'RE HAPPY FOR YA!

[BlanketEffect]

My wife is Catholic, I'm a Tool fan - does that mean something?

[swampyfool]

My wife is Catholic, I'm a Tool fan - does that mean something?
WE'RE HAPPY FOR YOUS GUYS, TOO!

[BlanketEffect]

Please note the rhetorical tone of my post.

[swampyfool]

Please note the rhetorical tone of my post.
WE'RE HAPPY FOR THAT, TOO!

[christjohn]

I'm from Poland. 90% catholic country. If I heard TOOL on "Radio Maryja" (the catholic voice at your home...) I would kill myself. Blame Maynard! Joke. But trust me, in not very rich (euphemism) countries like Poland, where uneployment is about 20% catholic priests are rich and rude... really, they don't need MJK to be GODS of our faith... so fuck this post!

[swampyfool]

I'm from Poland. 90% catholic country. If I heard TOOL on "Radio Maryja" (the catholic voice at your home...) I would kill myself. Blame Maynard! Joke. But trust me, in not very rich (euphemism) countries like Poland, where uneployment is about 20% catholic priests are rich and rude... really, they don't need MJK to be GODS of our faith... so fuck this post!
Hell's yeah.

[Caduceus11]

Hey thanks alot....
I would give almost anything to sit down with Maynard at Caduceus and share a bottle of wine....I am hoping that someday that happens. Oh what I'd give to talk to the man I admire so. I am a constant student, and I know that Maynard knows alot more about alot of things I am intrigued by. I have learned so much from him just through the music. But I'd really love to talk to him....
Again, thanx for the compliment on that post....I appreciate it....and the thing is, you being of the Vociferous class I know you've read a lot of posts, so that means something. Here's a toast to you!

[Caduceus11]

Look, if you've ever heard anything Maynard has ever said about religion...you'll know, he's no catholic.

[mackschapman]

The funny part about all this, is that everyone thinks there right, and nobody is going to change. Its pathetic really because nobody here actually has an open mind in any way... the simple fact is that in order to have an open mind you have to accept the fact that there is no truths. Yes I already know this statement contradicts itself, blah blah blah. But by calling anyone closed minded, ignorant or anything of the sort, you yourself are putting yourself above that person. You are also refusing the ideas of that person and therefore "shutting off your mind to their ideas" IE, close-minded. I know that not everyone is here is close-minded and ignorant but it has to make the true tool fans crazy when they see people making statements as if it were the absolute truth. Think, Listen, Read, Communicate. The great words from Pluribus Enigma. Tool said the same thing, Communicate. We can't communicate if all we do is talk and not listen. A communication is two way conversation that involves listening and understanding. stop making statements about the existance of God, he cannot be scientifically prooven or disprooven. and for all anyone here knows, you could be in the truman show and all this is just one big show and everyone is watching! Suck on that!

[undertoes]

The funny part about all this, is that everyone thinks there right, and nobody is going to change. Its pathetic really because nobody here actually has an open mind in any way... the simple fact is that in order to have an open mind you have to accept the fact that there is no truths. Yes I already know this statement contradicts itself, blah blah blah. But by calling anyone closed minded, ignorant or anything of the sort, you yourself are putting yourself above that person. You are also refusing the ideas of that person and therefore "shutting off your mind to their ideas" IE, close-minded. I know that not everyone is here is close-minded and ignorant but it has to make the true tool fans crazy when they see people making statements as if it were the absolute truth. Think, Listen, Read, Communicate. The great words from Pluribus Enigma. Tool said the same thing, Communicate. We can't communicate if all we do is talk and not listen. A communication is two way conversation that involves listening and understanding. stop making statements about the existance of God, he cannot be scientifically prooven or disprooven. and for all anyone here knows, you could be in the truman show and all this is just one big show and everyone is watching! Suck on that!


STFU, maynard isn't Catholic plain and simple

[Terry21]

nice one.

Yeah.

[titanstar]

He better not be catholic, and betray us. That would be so shitty of him

[Terry21]

He better not be catholic, and betray us. That would be so shitty of him

I would cry & pee a bit.

[Aunt Acid]

I'd pee everyday for the rest of my life if he did that.

[Caduceus11]

fear not...we're safe....maynard's no fool....we have nothing to worry about....so STFU all you fruits that think catholicism is part of TOOL....you must have been out your mind.....I love telling people to shut the Fart up!!! its great!

[Radius]

OMG I knew this guy who had a buddy who's uncles brother had this videotape of maynard and a rosary like making out !OMG he seriously was kissing and tonguing this rosary and Opiate was playing LOL! OMG I heard that he says so much stuff that you wouldn't believe!!! Or maybe you would loL!!!!!

[Kundalini108]

The catholic church is the biggest mafia in the world.

[Kundalini108]

I seriously dont think maynard would even think of joining such a organisation

[Kundalini108]

Maynard uses lots of concepts
given by eastern philosophies...Most of which are pissed on by the catholic church.

[mackschapman]

STFU, maynard isn't Catholic plain and simple

Ummm were in any way did I say he was? I was just making the point that people on this forum need to open there minds, both people who believe in God and those that dont. I personally dont care if he is catholic or not. I personally believe he is not, but I am defently not going to shut my mind of to the fact that people can change. All I was trying to say is stop with the put-downs and harsh words. Seperating from eachother will do nothing, coming together as tool fans and putting our heads together will...

[Caduceus11]

Where there is more than one...there will be division....

[Kundalini108]

How could we all possible be unified?...Everyone of us has our own personal interpretations of what Tool is trying to tell us. Half of it is all speculation. Unless we all understood that it didnt matter and that all We really needed to understand was that, our world, as it is going, needs serious correction. Our lives are fucked up by tv and useless entertainment...so much to the point lots of us forget whats real. We begin to believe every lie the media tells. The sad thing is that we so caught up most of us don't even care to know the truth...We let the lies slide by everyday...Each day it gets worse and worse. Things need fixing...Badly...The main religions have been worse than mafia's for hundreds of years...fighting over supremacy...killing people, and forcing them to accept their doctrines. Wars have been fought over these foolish things.
Goverments abuse their positions and forget there purpose is to give the people freedom not to control them. Everyone keeps their eye on the tv...Nobody gives a shit...and even if someone would stand up...everyone would just tell him he's out his mind.
But understand that this is the material world...Its full of misery and to try and change it is only to get trapped even more. The point is to get out. Get away from this hellish place and go to an eternal place...It exists...believe it or not...As does even more hellish places than this. Spiral out!

[Aunt Acid]

Maynard uses lots of concepts
given by eastern philosophies...Most of which are pissed on by the catholic church.

That proves it!

[mackschapman]

How could we all possible be unified?...Everyone of us has our own personal interpretations of what Tool is trying to tell us. Half of it is all speculation. Unless we all understood that it didnt matter and that all We really needed to understand was that, our world, as it is going, needs serious correction. Our lives are fucked up by tv and useless entertainment...so much to the point lots of us forget whats real. We begin to believe every lie the media tells. The sad thing is that we so caught up most of us don't even care to know the truth...We let the lies slide by everyday...Each day it gets worse and worse. Things need fixing...Badly...The main religions have been worse than mafia's for hundreds of years...fighting over supremacy...killing people, and forcing them to accept their doctrines. Wars have been fought over these foolish things.
Goverments abuse their positions and forget there purpose is to give the people freedom not to control them. Everyone keeps their eye on the tv...Nobody gives a shit...and even if someone would stand up...everyone would just tell him he's out his mind.
But understand that this is the material world...Its full of misery and to try and change it is only to get trapped even more. The point is to get out. Get away from this hellish place and go to an eternal place...It exists...believe it or not...As does even more hellish places than this. Spiral out!

Your awesome, you defently get a Gold star for your life. Its to bad because it so true. The only thing I dissagree with is trying to leave it behind. The people did it in the 60's and 70's and we can do the same thing they did. Even though the media, the goverment, and religions are fucking this world up we can change it. They say one voice can make a difference but it wont. That why I wish tool fans would come together, we dont need a million people to make a change, but it helps. There is enough people in this forum and enough people that read this forum that could start something. It could start something huge, its just the only part is that nobody has the balls to take that step forward. I know for a fact i couldn't unless i had backing. The reason the world is so fucked up because we dont do anything about it, we just let them do whatever they want. A goverment can stop a couple hundred people from trying to change the goverment, but it cant stop a million voices speaking against it. we dont need to revolt, or try to send a message, or use any violence by any means, but we can defently send a message that we have had enough of this shit("monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground", "Don't these talking monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?")

[Kundalini108]

You can't prove the non-existance of god. If your reason for not believing in god is because so many bad things happen in this world...Maybe bad things happen to people purely because thats what they deserve... Its called karma...and its basically the mathematics of action and reaction. Its simple... No one is innocent...as maynard says.
You've done something in this life or in a past life to deserve all the shit you go through...the good and the bad. So quite fuckin blame shifting...

[Kundalini108]

Lets discuss something...Just for arguements sake...how could you prove the supremacy of a single religion?

[Kundalini108]

...I realise the relevence of my first post here about the existance of god isnt quite relevent to this page...(tried to post it on page one of this thread not realising that was the old shit) so....yeeeeeeah

[Kundalini108]

The hippies didnt leave the world behind...They left modern culture behind as much as they could. I'm talking about putting ourselves in our original positions, One with god...if you may...but even more than that...
Vaisnava teachings say that there are 7 lokas(or planets just like this) in the meterial world...Earth is the middle planet...after death you can either move up or move down depending on how you act in this life...There is no eternal damnation or any of that rubbish...god is kinder than that(wouldnt you guess?) The ones down are like hellish planets....the ones up are heavenly. Now all these planets are still in the material world.
You cant stay in hell forever and you cant stay in heaven forever you have to come back to earth...eventually. All this stuff gets destroyed...and is recreated so its temporary...Now whats outside is first an effulgance. You know that light people say they want to merge with...well thats basically the light that comes off the eternal world.
Past that is a place called vaikuntha...You are there with god, you get the physical form of god called narayana and you serve god there eternally...Now past that and as far as you can go is a little village called goloka vrndavan...there you take the form of Krsna's(god) friend, his mother, his father, his lover, his tools or whatever you desire.
and you reside there eternally...
The point is to try to get there...so we dont have to be born again and again in this hellish place...sounds nice to me.
Thats what i meant by leave it behind...but while were here...we should make the best of it...and right now this place needs a lot of work!
Hare krsna! spiral out!!

[BlanketEffect]

Aside from the fact that you posted four times in a row... God ideas (edit- heh,appropriate typo)... too much Hindu terminology/imagery for my taste but whatever gets you where you're going, brother.

And the biggest thing is not to have a voice and speak out against it. Voice your opinions and views by example. Let your light guide others to the light. Compassion and love are the goal, don't forget it - and the people you interact with won't, either.

[Kundalini108]

good point...thanks!

[ApostlesCreed]

I recently through the grace of GOD, broke free from alcoholism and depression. Don't throw the stones yet.. there's more to it. I bounced around through a lot of different belief systems.. finding some truth in each. I wanted everything synthesized into one system.. I couldn't find one that accomplished this. Why did I want this? Bottomline, It's most likely because I'm weak, I'm dependent, I need acceptance, and I've let my ego guide me into dark corners thinking my intellect was a perfect compass. Common human error. I delved into Chaos Magick and found myself going nuts. Why? Relatavism just doesn't work.. sure it works for one but it doesn't work in groups.. it manifests the problems we're having now in society (IMO). So one day at the end of my rope.. I feel the LORD guided me to Catholicism. I found the "fullness of Truth" there... do I have difficulties with it? Yes. A thousand difficulties don't make a single doubt though. We humans can rationalize anything... perhaps that is precisely what some of us are doing here. Do I think Maynard converted to Catholicism... I have to admit I wondered... especially hearing "Sober" today on Hard Attack (Sirius radio). Perhaps there are more references to Catholicism that I missed due to my old mind set. I was starkly anti-Christian before by the way... and we all know our opinions/beliefs tremendously affect our perspective of reality. I think Maynard could have converted to Catholicism... but that is my own opinion and I don't claim it to be truth nor falsehood. I really don't know where his mind is. I think Maynard has some great things to say, but I also don't feel that he's saying anything new. I delight in their music and some of what they have to say in regards to my interpretation. That's all that really matters to me. Maynard doesn't have to be Catholic, but man... I would love to see him come to the faith, selfish reasons aside. I do know one thing, I was touched by this album.. and it's dedication to his mother... from "Judith" to "10,000 Days" people can change. Perhaps this was a senseless post, perhaps not. I just wanted to put my opinion out there and also say "Hello" to everyone. I look forward to sharing ideas with all of you.

[Aunt Acid]

Judith and 10,000 are practically the same song lyrically. "It's not like you killed someone" "Never took a life". Nothings really changed.

[ApostlesCreed]

Judith and 10,000 are practically the same song lyrically. "It's not like you killed someone" "Never took a life". Nothings really changed.

"Judith" seems immature and full of angst. "10,000" is more mature and motivated by love. Quite a difference if you ask me. "Judith" engages in the usual rhetoric applied in anti-Christian sentiments, and "10,000" engages in a more open-minded acceptance with love and tolerance whether or not Maynard agrees with it.

Clever alias btw.

[ApostlesCreed]

"Judith" seems immature and full of angst. "10,000" is more mature and motivated by love. Quite a difference if you ask me. "Judith" engages in the usual rhetoric applied in anti-Christian sentiments, and "10,000" engages in a more open-minded acceptance with love and tolerance whether or not Maynard agrees with it.

Clever alias btw.

"10,000" also shows how the suffering Judith experiences is an entering into "the path of the Hero (Jesus)" and contrastly "Judith" seems focused more on the rationale of guilt from offense to Jesus. I think it's a deeper and more mature inspection of her faith. Sometimes we have to see the pit before we see the plateau. In her death he saw the truth and depth of her belief and not the shallow and weak interpretation of the faith as showed by others:

"Listen to the tales as we all rationalize
Our way into the arms of the savior,
Feigning all the trials and the tribulations;
None of us have actually been there.
Not like you."

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,
Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.
You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one."

[ApostlesCreed]

How could we all possible be unified?...Everyone of us has our own personal interpretations of what Tool is trying to tell us. Half of it is all speculation. Unless we all understood that it didnt matter and that all We really needed to understand was that, our world, as it is going, needs serious correction. Our lives are fucked up by tv and useless entertainment...so much to the point lots of us forget whats real. We begin to believe every lie the media tells. The sad thing is that we so caught up most of us don't even care to know the truth...We let the lies slide by everyday...Each day it gets worse and worse. Things need fixing...Badly...The main religions have been worse than mafia's for hundreds of years...fighting over supremacy...killing people, and forcing them to accept their doctrines. Wars have been fought over these foolish things.
Goverments abuse their positions and forget there purpose is to give the people freedom not to control them. Everyone keeps their eye on the tv...Nobody gives a shit...and even if someone would stand up...everyone would just tell him he's out his mind.
But understand that this is the material world...Its full of misery and to try and change it is only to get trapped even more. The point is to get out. Get away from this hellish place and go to an eternal place...It exists...believe it or not...As does even more hellish places than this. Spiral out!

Amen.

[implandnoises]

so, yeah, um,i was like, surfing the tool forum and shit, and i like, saw some people saying that the tool guy was like catholic and shit. which tool guy? you know, the tool guy! there's only one tool guy! you know, the blue one.

anyways, so i was like, yeah, thats cool, is he? far out.

my mate, though, he told me that he wasn't eh? he said that he was a shaman or something, you know, like a priest for this little cult or something. he said they are called the louts of spira or the spira louts or something - some indian tribe, i don't know. so yeah, i just wanted to say that eh, cuz i think that maybe he wouldn't be a catholic and believe in jesus and shit, you know. not when he was like a priest of the indians and stuff, and besides, i always thought he was a satanist so that means he doesn't believe in god anyways.

yeah but like, i could be wrong though, cuz like, i've never met the guy and shit, so maybe he like, wears a cross or something and takes his kids to church (except i don't think rockstars have kids do they? apart from britney spears, but i think that was just part of the record deal).

yeah, i mean, i guess he could be catholic. like, i don't think he said so in interviews, but you never know. i guess he could be a scientologist. lots of stars are scientologists, he seems like the kind of guy who would be one too, because he is real intelligent and shit, so he probably knows his science real good and he knows where saturn is and shit.

true, so yeah, i guess he probably is a catholic scientologist, my mate must've been lying or something. he does that sometimes. like that time he gave me a bottle of alcohol and told me it was vodka, but it wasn't, it was meths. but thats ok, cuz it still got me drunk.

[Opiate_Of_The_Mind]

You can't use the lyrics from Judith to say he doesn't believe in a God. If you see the DVD he makes it VERY clear that he says, "your" God, not "THE" God. He makes a point to mention that himself. I have my own believes, I personally am Christian, Do I think Maynard is? I doubt it, all I know is I love the music he has a hand in making. It has helped me become more open minded and see the world for how it is.

[Opiate_Of_The_Mind]

spira louts


I like that one. They just keep going.

[Ana]

Well who really cares what Maynard's religion is? Who cares how he feels about politics, religion, war or oil prices. Hopefully we are smart enough to make our own decisions regarding politics and hopefully we already have our own faith and don't need Maynard's guidance for salvation, or lack there of.
** He's an incredible artist and singer!!** Not a priest, or politician or any authority on politics or religion. The only time I really care about what comes out of his mouth is when he's singing.
I Agree with you. What the hell do we care what any mamber of the band belives in as long as keep on making great art, great music. Besides, every single one of us as a brain (I hope) and understands the lirycs of the songs as they want.
Yes, maynard may talk about religion, or politics or whatever he wants, but why do we have to discuss his "views" as if they were THE most important thing in Tools work?
What about the other band members beleifs? do you even care? OF COURSE NOT! And what about the meaning of the artwork in all Tools Cds? does it reflect the what Adam and those who colaborate whith him, believe in?
Well my friend, if you go down that path, you will become Tool Folowers and you will no longer be able to apreciate their work as artists?
Is it really important to Know a pintors personal belifs to enjoy his paintigs?

[toocooltool]

no

[No one and nobody]

[QUOTE=Opiate_Of_The_Mind]spira louts

Notice how this is a deviation of spiral out (Lateralus)?

[No one and nobody]

so, yeah, um,i was like, surfing the tool forum and shit, and i like, saw some people saying that the tool guy was like catholic and shit. which tool guy? you know, the tool guy! there's only one tool guy! you know, the blue one.

anyways, so i was like, yeah, thats cool, is he? far out.

my mate, though, he told me that he wasn't eh? he said that he was a shaman or something, you know, like a priest for this little cult or something. he said they are called the louts of spira or the spira louts or something - some indian tribe, i don't know. so yeah, i just wanted to say that eh, cuz i think that maybe he wouldn't be a catholic and believe in jesus and shit, you know. not when he was like a priest of the indians and stuff, and besides, i always thought he was a satanist so that means he doesn't believe in god anyways.

yeah but like, i could be wrong though, cuz like, i've never met the guy and shit, so maybe he like, wears a cross or something and takes his kids to church (except i don't think rockstars have kids do they? apart from britney spears, but i think that was just part of the record deal).

yeah, i mean, i guess he could be catholic. like, i don't think he said so in interviews, but you never know. i guess he could be a scientologist. lots of stars are scientologists, he seems like the kind of guy who would be one too, because he is real intelligent and shit, so he probably knows his science real good and he knows where saturn is and shit.

true, so yeah, i guess he probably is a catholic scientologist, my mate must've been lying or something. he does that sometimes. like that time he gave me a bottle of alcohol and told me it was vodka, but it wasn't, it was meths. but thats ok, cuz it still got me drunk.

The fact that he is a intelligent shouldn't give him the predisposition to be a scientologist... have you ever looked into the beliefs of these people? Tom Cruise is their posterboy because they need all the help (and free advertising) they can get.

[Caduceus11]

I can't believe this is still going on over here....
HE IS NOT CATHOLIC! Don't be so stupid!

[BlanketEffect]

Nice thoughts to you and Successfully.

One thing I'm stuck on though, I'm pretty sure it must be "burden of proof tossed upon NON believers. Burden of truth, a legal term, is the obligation to have to proove something. Believers do not have to proove anything because they believe. Non-believers are the ones burdened with this. That line, I think, is a continutation of the line "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance," burdened with the need to proove the existance of a higher power.

After thinking about this for several weeks and weighing it in my mind, I think it is

'burden of prood tossed upon the believers'

Because the believers are like... the prosecutors... the ones that have to prove something to the skeptics/non-believers. So they're the one the burden of proof lies upon. It's up to the believers to provide proof of god/Jesus/whatever. The non-believers don't have to prove anything. They're not arguing a case.

[spacemonkeyadb]

so, yeah, um,i was like, surfing the tool forum and shit, and i like, saw some people saying that the tool guy was like catholic and shit. which tool guy? you know, the tool guy! there's only one tool guy! you know, the blue one.

anyways, so i was like, yeah, thats cool, is he? far out.

my mate, though, he told me that he wasn't eh? he said that he was a shaman or something, you know, like a priest for this little cult or something. he said they are called the louts of spira or the spira louts or something - some indian tribe, i don't know. so yeah, i just wanted to say that eh, cuz i think that maybe he wouldn't be a catholic and believe in jesus and shit, you know. not when he was like a priest of the indians and stuff, and besides, i always thought he was a satanist so that means he doesn't believe in god anyways.

yeah but like, i could be wrong though, cuz like, i've never met the guy and shit, so maybe he like, wears a cross or something and takes his kids to church (except i don't think rockstars have kids do they? apart from britney spears, but i think that was just part of the record deal).

yeah, i mean, i guess he could be catholic. like, i don't think he said so in interviews, but you never know. i guess he could be a scientologist. lots of stars are scientologists, he seems like the kind of guy who would be one too, because he is real intelligent and shit, so he probably knows his science real good and he knows where saturn is and shit.

true, so yeah, i guess he probably is a catholic scientologist, my mate must've been lying or something. he does that sometimes. like that time he gave me a bottle of alcohol and told me it was vodka, but it wasn't, it was meths. but thats ok, cuz it still got me drunk.

Fuckin funny post fellow Kiwi. Nice one. Sadly it seems someone actually took it seriously! Anyways, where can I sign up to become a Lout of Spira? LMAO dude, like really, I mean for real and shit man.

[spacemonkeyadb]

After thinking about this for several weeks and weighing it in my mind, I think it is

'burden of prood tossed upon the believers'

Because the believers are like... the prosecutors... the ones that have to prove something to the skeptics/non-believers. So they're the one the burden of proof lies upon. It's up to the believers to provide proof of god/Jesus/whatever. The non-believers don't have to prove anything. They're not arguing a case.

This is discussed where it belongs, i.e. in the "What's he saying?" thread. Go check it out. It could be either depending on whether he's speaking of his position or his mother's. His position would presumably be to toss the burden of proof upon THE believers (i.e. insist that they prove their case to him), whereas his mother's would likely have been to toss the burden of proof on the NON-believer's (i.e. insist they disprove her religious beliefs). Sadly, the context doesn't make it entirely clear who the line refers to, as the previous line refers to himself ("Set as I am..."), and the following line refers to his mother (Judith Marie...).

[BlanketEffect]

Well, also I took the 'you were my witness, my eyes, my evidence' to be saying the burden of proof was tossed upon the believers and she was the prosecutor's case. She was the proof.

[implandnoises]

The fact that he is a intelligent shouldn't give him the predisposition to be a scientologist... have you ever looked into the beliefs of these people? Tom Cruise is their posterboy because they need all the help (and free advertising) they can get.
Yeah, I agree, Tom Cruise is the shit! You're right, he must be real smart if he is a Scientologist!

[Aunt Acid]

so, yeah, um,i was like, surfing the tool forum and shit, and i like, saw some people saying that the tool guy was like catholic and shit. which tool guy? you know, the tool guy! there's only one tool guy! you know, the blue one.

anyways, so i was like, yeah, thats cool, is he? far out.

my mate, though, he told me that he wasn't eh? he said that he was a shaman or something, you know, like a priest for this little cult or something. he said they are called the louts of spira or the spira louts or something - some indian tribe, i don't know. so yeah, i just wanted to say that eh, cuz i think that maybe he wouldn't be a catholic and believe in jesus and shit, you know. not when he was like a priest of the indians and stuff, and besides, i always thought he was a satanist so that means he doesn't believe in god anyways.

yeah but like, i could be wrong though, cuz like, i've never met the guy and shit, so maybe he like, wears a cross or something and takes his kids to church (except i don't think rockstars have kids do they? apart from britney spears, but i think that was just part of the record deal).

yeah, i mean, i guess he could be catholic. like, i don't think he said so in interviews, but you never know. i guess he could be a scientologist. lots of stars are scientologists, he seems like the kind of guy who would be one too, because he is real intelligent and shit, so he probably knows his science real good and he knows where saturn is and shit.

true, so yeah, i guess he probably is a catholic scientologist, my mate must've been lying or something. he does that sometimes. like that time he gave me a bottle of alcohol and told me it was vodka, but it wasn't, it was meths. but thats ok, cuz it still got me drunk.

Best post EVER.

[implandnoises]

Anyways, where can I sign up to become a Lout of Spira?
In Japan, the next Spira congregation is held in Osaka on August 12. If you can't make it to that, there is another meeting the next day in Tokyo. Be warned though - there is a brutal initiation ritual, and I have been informed that the Japanese regularly take this too far...

[BlanketEffect]

Best post EVER.

Indeed

[BlanketEffect]

Um, no... not even the same fucking ballpark.

[Aunt Acid]

It really wouldn't be close because Maynard is very spiritual and is in a very spiritual band. Head is/was neither.

[Melanos]

catholic's believe in evolution? since when.... wasnt man created from dust according to them.. and then eve was created from a rib? lol evolution indeed

[Melanos]

oh yeah... and maynard did find christ, its himself... just like its yourself and myself..... christ (if your talking about jesus) said " i am no differant from any of you, only i have seen the light and you are wandering around in hopeless night". Sorry... but we are all christ if we NEED to be... let go.

[Melanos]

It really wouldn't be close because Maynard is very spiritual and is in a very spiritual band. Head is/was neither.


head left Korn... hmmm i recall him saying that music (Korn) was "meaningless in my life, i am beyond that".


research please...........

[Melanos]

and one more thing..... "beliefs are dangerous they allow the mind to stop functioning etc etc.." didnt they say believe in nothing? hmmm kinda puts a new thought in your head lol :P

[Aunt Acid]

head left Korn... hmmm i recall him saying that music (Korn) was "meaningless in my life, i am beyond that".


research please...........

I know that. Maynard finding Jesus would be different because Maynard is a very spiritual person and in a spiritual band. Head wasn't a spiritual person and was not in a spiritual band. That's why it's different, that's what I was saying.

[BlanketEffect]

Why is that? Who made you the chosen one and said let blanket know all, and be the judge of the all knowing. Go fuck yourself and your close minded thoughts; They are not any better then mine, his or hers.

Sure, and maybe the Dali Lama will find Jesus soon, too. Because him, Head, and Maynard all have the same propensity and likelihood of converting to Christianity.

Having different opinions is one thing. Telling people that they are close-minded for pointing out logical contradictions to your opinion is fucking ignorant. Sorry if logic bruises the ego and poorly-thought-out opinions and posts. Blame the gods.

O.K. done with this thread. Open minds are closed in here.

So long, we wish you well. At least you tried. Goodbye.

[BlanketEffect]

Sorry, I came off like a shithead. Your points are well taken. It was ingnorant off me. Logic is logic, who am I to say different.

Good man. Didn't mean to be as callous as I was. Now let's get back on track.

[bellamadia]

You can't prove the non-existance of god. If your reason for not believing in god is because so many bad things happen in this world...Maybe bad things happen to people purely because thats what they deserve... Its called karma...and its basically the mathematics of action and reaction. Its simple... No one is innocent...as maynard says.
You've done something in this life or in a past life to deserve all the shit you go through...the good and the bad. So quite fuckin blame shifting...

Yeah I'm going to have to disagree with the whole karma thing here. A sweet little six year old that dies in a car accident deserves it huh?

There is no such thing as karma. You can kill someone or you can give all you time, heart and money to charity and end up with the same fates.

"Bad" things happen because that is the way the world is supposed to work. God or not, it was never said that a perfect world was created. The world is a constantly changing place of positives and negatives that are always pushing and pulling eachother to balance. Humans are only one part of that. We are as much a part of the positive and negative as the the stars, the oceans, the plants, the black holes... and so on. We move along in the same way. Nothing is truely "bad" or "good," it just is as it is.

[BlanketEffect]

Yeah I'm going to have to disagree with the whole karma thing here. A sweet little six year old that dies in a car accident deserves it huh?

There is no such thing as karma. You can kill someone or you can give all you time, heart and money to charity and end up with the same fates.

"Bad" things happen because that is the way the world is supposed to work. God or not, it was never said that a perfect world was created. The world is a constantly changing place of positives and negatives that are always pushing and pulling eachother to balance. Humans are only one part of that. We are as much a part of the positive and negative as the the stars, the oceans, the plants, the black holes... and so on. We move along in the same way. Nothing is truely "bad" or "good," it just is as it is.

Karma isn't that farfetched. No matter what belief structure or philosophical view I've examined I always come back to cause and effect; and, that's all karma is. It's on a personal level, but also on a collective level. So no, that little girl didn't deserve it. But the echoes of past actions/reacitons cause things. And not everything is karma. Some things are simply random chance. But even those random chances are all caused by cause and effect.

If (G)od doesn't get involved with things and simply set them in motion then karma is the logical system by which things occur. Karma is really just spiritual/emotional cause and effect, but on a universal level.

[implandnoises]

true, so yeah, i guess he probably is a catholic scientologist

I am not a scientologist nor should anyone else be.

Who the hell is MJK? And what the fuck does he know anyway?

[bellamadia]

Karma isn't that farfetched. No matter what belief structure or philosophical view I've examined I always come back to cause and effect; and, that's all karma is. It's on a personal level, but also on a collective level. So no, that little girl didn't deserve it. But the echoes of past actions/reacitons cause things. And not everything is karma. Some things are simply random chance. But even those random chances are all caused by cause and effect.

If (G)od doesn't get involved with things and simply set them in motion then karma is the logical system by which things occur. Karma is really just spiritual/emotional cause and effect, but on a universal level.

I agree with cause and effect, but that is very different from karma. You misinterpreted the wikipedia definition.

Cause and effect is a given in this world, for every action there is a reaction. However, karma is "what you give out, you get back" often times threefold. That is not always the case. Good behavior doesn't always reap reward and bad behavior doesn't always assume punishment.

[paraflux]

O.K. done with this thread. Open minds are closed in here.
True, if having an opinion different from yours means people are closed minded. Christ.

[BlanketEffect]

http://www.reference.com/browse/columbia/karma

Karma:

karma or karman (kär′ mə, kär′ mən), [Skt.,=action, work, or ritual], basic concept common to Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The doctrine of karma states that one's state in this life is a result of actions (both physical and mental) in past incarnations, and action in this life can determine one's destiny in future incarnations. Karma is a natural, impersonal law of moral cause and effect and has no connection with the idea of a supreme power that decrees punishment or forgiveness of sins. Karmic law is universally applicable, and only those who have attained liberation from rebirth, called mukti (or moksha) or nirvana, can transcend it. Karma yoga (see yoga), the spiritual discipline of detachment from the results of action, is a famous teaching of the Bhagavad-Gita.

Since I myself follow the karma yoga path of Vedanta, I feel a certain compulsion to bring it to light.

[2and46]

Has anyone ever heard of symbolism? Maynard uses this literary strategy often.

[Aunt Acid]

Has anyone ever heard of symbolism? Maynard uses this literary strategy often.

Teach us, oh wise one.

[eleventh minute]

What I've noticed about this song is that it is not constitent with the Southern Baptist beliefs Maynard was raised with. Baptists reject evolution. They also reject Free Will, believing in pre-destination.

It would seem from this song (and 10,000 days) that Maynard has converted to Catholism. Catholics are the big propents of Free Will and they also believe in evolution.

Also note that the Catholic Church took a big stand against the U.S.'s war on the Iraqi people. The last pope released three statements rejecting the concept of pre-emptive war in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq.

The Catholic Church also rejects materialism emphasizing the need to give to the needy. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that the two great evils of the world are extreme Communism and extreme Capitalism.

Also, in the song 10,000 days he emphasizes that his mother should get into Heaven based on good works that she has performed. Catholism is unique among Christian religion in believing that one achieves salvation through faith and good works. All other Christian religions that I know of teach that one gets into heaven by faith in Christ alone.

P.S. Any Tool fans who would like to know more about the Catholic Church may feel free to P.M. or just ask over the forum.


There are too many fucking things wrong with this post. Go punish yourself.

[ObiJohnKenobi]

once, when the Catholic Church was selling indulgences (scraps and bits rifled from past saints) to their congregation as a means of releasing their dead ancestors from Purgatory and ushering them through the gates, spaghetti was a thing of legend and epic tales.

now, both are as common-place and disquieting as the warm sandwich i forgot to eat and left on the counter for the last 4 hours.

when I eat my spaghetti, i use a spoon. that does not make me anglican. it might, if analyzed long enough using the odd random Google search (eg. "spoon" and "religious iconography"), make me taoist and I wouldn't argue.... i just might use my spoon a little more wisely in the future.

i think the whole point of 10,000 days is to market flourescent lighting.

[BlanketEffect]

once, when the Catholic Church was selling indulgences (scraps and bits rifled from past saints) to their congregation as a means of realeasing their dead ancestors from Purgatory and ushering them through the gates, spaghetti was a thing of legend and epic tales.

now, both are as common-place and disquieting as the warm sandwich i forgot to eat and left on the counter for the last 4 hours.

when I eat my spaghetti, i use a spoon. that does not make me anglican. it might, if analyzed long enough using the odd random Google search (eg. "spoon" and "religious iconography"), make me taoist and I wouldn't argue.... i just might use my spoon a little more wisely in the future.

i think the whole point of 10,000 days is to market flourescent lighting.

*falls over laughing*

[eleventh minute]

once, when the Catholic Church was selling indulgences (scraps and bits rifled from past saints) to their congregation as a means of realeasing their dead ancestors from Purgatory and ushering them through the gates, spaghetti was a thing of legend and epic tales.

now, both are as common-place and disquieting as the warm sandwich i forgot to eat and left on the counter for the last 4 hours.

when I eat my spaghetti, i use a spoon. that does not make me anglican. it might, if analyzed long enough using the odd random Google search (eg. "spoon" and "religious iconography"), make me taoist and I wouldn't argue.... i just might use my spoon a little more wisely in the future.

i think the whole point of 10,000 days is to market flourescent lighting.


Finally! someone who knows what they're talking about! thank you.

[ObiJohnKenobi]

i misspelled "releasing"

[paraflux]

You still made an admin's signature

[ObiJohnKenobi]

You still made an admin's signature


contemplating....

contemplating...


okay i give up. Does that mean i'm on a "timeout"? banned from meatballs and sauce? or is it something good?

contemplating...

oh hey. as nietzsche once said, "the visionary lies to himself, the liar only to others. when you click enough hyper-links you will find the truth behind the visions and lies", so i clicked a few and found something.

its only the 2nd of august you realize.... That is a tall order for mongrel like myself. there are no obligations of service are there?

[paraflux]

Um, all it means is that you made it into my signature... check it out? No obligations necessary...

[ObiJohnKenobi]

it's just that for such a simple post


"You still made an admin's signature"


i had to do a LOT of thinking... maybe its just the lack of coffee or the fact that "made an admin's signature" sounds kind of ominous for a new guy like me either way, all's good now... i'm done with the digressing.

many thanks.

[swampyfool]

The funny part about all this, is that everyone thinks there right, and nobody is going to change. Its pathetic really because nobody here actually has an open mind in any way... the simple fact is that in order to have an open mind you have to accept the fact that there is no truths. Yes I already know this statement contradicts itself, blah blah blah. But by calling anyone closed minded, ignorant or anything of the sort, you yourself are putting yourself above that person. You are also refusing the ideas of that person and therefore "shutting off your mind to their ideas" IE, close-minded. I know that not everyone is here is close-minded and ignorant but it has to make the true tool fans crazy when they see people making statements as if it were the absolute truth. Think, Listen, Read, Communicate. The great words from Pluribus Enigma. Tool said the same thing, Communicate. We can't communicate if all we do is talk and not listen. A communication is two way conversation that involves listening and understanding. stop making statements about the existance of God, he cannot be scientifically prooven or disprooven. and for all anyone here knows, you could be in the truman show and all this is just one big show and everyone is watching! Suck on that!

I appreciate the spirit of your post, yet at the same time, I scoff at it's shortsighted idealism. By extension of your argument, people would not be able to use the exchange of ideas to determine that genocide is wrong- at least not without being closed-minded. There are certain philosophical truths that must act as a cornerstone for one's frame of reference. I personally prefer the model set forward by the framers of the American Constitution- the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness- unfortunately the application never seems to be as genuine as the idea, alas.

But I digress . . . The point is that in order to exchange ideas, people must make assertions that maintain that another's stance is wrong; a person does not become truly closed-minded until (s)he refuses to acknowledge that there exist other valid ways to percieve things than his or her own model.

But why does closed-minded have to have such a negative connotation? When applied in the right circumstances, a closed mind is a valuable asset. For instance, rape sucks. I will never rape anybody. I will never condone rape. As far as my mind is concerned on rape- well, let's just say that it's closed. And I am not only glad about that, I proudly announce it to the world. Obviously it is bad to come to a point in one's life wherein one's mind is closed to ANY new ideas (or is that a closed-minded statement, too?), on that point we find agreement. But to label a person closed-minded because that person's own analytical introspection has led him or her to a deeply maintained principal on a debateable issue- a conviction from which (s)he will never be shaken, even- seems shortsighted.

If a person wants to deny the existence of god and to acclaim that denial as fact, I cannot necessarily label that person as closed-minded. His or her mind may be closed on the topic- and I may disagree with that closure, but that is not evidence of a full closure. It seems to me sometimes (often in frustration) that an open-minded person must arrive at the conclusion that the existence of deity (in whatever form) can neither be proven nor refuted- after all, my open mind leads me to that conclusion. But that is the kind of thinking that I find to be truly closed-minded. However, I feel quite secure in my open-mindedness when I say that the God implied by Christianity DOES NOT FUCKING EXIST! If I had no backup for such a statement, then maybe it would be fair to label me closed-minded. However, I have plenty of rational inferences and historical facts to corroborate my belief. In fact, that belief- or that closure of the mind- is the result of a decades-long litany of open-minded thought (the details of which are posted all over this forum, so I will not bore people with it again).

The point is that open-minded is overrated, because so many people think that you have to be open-minded in every discussion; in every life-application; to every idea; to every cultural tenet . . . Aristotle once said that "virtue lies within the means of two extremes (or some such- I probably shouldn't have used quotation marks)," and that is a brilliant piece of philosophy. We have a word for the extreme extension of open-mindedness . . . Indecisiveness. The truly open-minded person must be able to identify the proper time to close his or her mind on a certain topic, or (s)he will never be able to acquire the principles or convictions that form the individual identity, and will never find their own ultimate truths.

And as deities (each and every one of us), ultimate truths are all we have.

[Kerub]

If you're going to apply 'closed mindedness' to every aspect of life, then yes, in some instances it could be good. An opinion on whether god is real or not- whether someone believes it to be fact or not- is still not a fact. It's an opionion, and being so closed minded to the point that you are delusional about what is reality and what is reality in your mind is not healthy. You may choose to believe in god or not believe, but it's not one's place to tell other people that it's factual as one would have no such proof. I'm pretty sure that the previous poster intended his comments to be directed specifically toward this forum, in which some people tend to think they have the real meaning of every song in mind, and that their interpretation is the best. In this context closed mindedness IS a bad thing- primarily because you get people in here discussing their opinions and feelings and a refusal to understand/believe that anyone else could feel something different and it still be right. It becomes an unfounded pissing match over something that neither participant will ever know the true meaning of- because they again are discussing OPINIONS on someone else's work. I think all of us are well aware that no tool fan will be given true insight to what a tool song really means, because it is meant for us to take it how we will and apply it to our lives as we wish. No two people are going to have the same interpretation so having that closed minded mentality only serves imply that one thinks his interpretation is better or smarter than anyone elses. You have to keep in mind that there is no right or wrong when it comes to opinions, and just because you see a song in a different light that someone else does not mean than what you heard, what you took from that song was 'right', it was simply right for YOU. It's also interesting sometimes to hear someone elses' take on lyrics and what they mean, if your mind is not closed, you might find something new in that song that you never thought was there...

Edit: One more thought- being closed minded is something that all of us experience at some time or another. As you said, we all close our mind to certain topics at some point. It's how you use it, and how you treat other people regarding your mindset that are important.

[undertoes]

I just wanna note that the OP's name is Drunkard. That is all.

[Kerub]

Finally! someone who knows what they're talking about! thank you.

LOL... I wholeheartedly agree!

[nmayhew]

waste of time.....opinons would be respected a lot more if words such as "is" didn't exist!!! (maynard "is" (blank)...tool "is" (blank).....religion "is" (blank)) you have no idea what "is" or "isn't" and neither do i. please, if you want to express an opinion, leave the "is" out of the opinion. NO ONE can be all-knowing.

[implandnoises]

What about "Maynard is bald?", "Tool is a band?", "is our children learning?"

All facts, not opinions......




........?

[nmayhew]

What about "Maynard is bald?", "Tool is a band?", "is our children learning?"

All facts, not opinions......




........?

I'm refering to open statements not facts.....(maynard "is" or "isn't" christian), who are we to state this? If someone can prove this by means other than: "by reading maynards lyrics in blah blah blah, it is easy to deduct that he is not christian" by saying "is" in this statement, they are saying that what they stated is (lol) a fact, when this statement is an opinon.

basically you hit it on the head, using "is" refers to facts, not opinions. So when stating an opinon it seems to be more appealing to leave the "is" out of it. This will lead to intellectual discussions, rather than pointless arguing.

[implandnoises]

I'm refering to open statements not facts.....(maynard "is" or "isn't" christian), who are we to state this? If someone can prove this by means other than: "by reading maynards lyrics in blah blah blah, it is easy to deduct that he is not christian" by saying "is" in this statement, they are saying that what they stated is (lol) a fact, when this statement is an opinon.

basically you hit it on the head, using "is" refers to facts, not opinions. So when stating an opinon it seems to be more appealing to leave the "is" out of it. This will lead to intellectual discussions, rather than pointless arguing.

indeed.

sorry, my post doesn't really make sense on its own, I was trying to say something but kind of gave up half way and then just submitted it. I really can't be bothered at the moment....

[nmayhew]

indeed.

sorry, my post doesn't really make sense on its own, I was trying to say something but kind of gave up half way and then just submitted it. I really can't be bothered at the moment....

no need to apologize, for your post made me realize that I didn't really explain myself at all.....i should just go to bed.....now that I explained it.......

[implandnoises]

no need to apologize, for your post made me realize that I didn't really explain myself at all.....i should just go to bed.....now that I explained it.......

haha, fair enough. I am just waiting up for an interview with Adam and Danny that will be screened on tv in about an hour here in NZ.

[paraflux]

I appreciate the spirit of your post, yet at the same time, I scoff at it's shortsighted idealism. By extension of your argument, people would not be able to use the exchange of ideas to determine that genocide is wrong- at least not without being closed-minded. There are certain philosophical truths that must act as a cornerstone for one's frame of reference. I personally prefer the model set forward by the framers of the American Constitution- the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness- unfortunately the application never seems to be as genuine as the idea, alas.
Nope, it never does, at least not anymore. Leary said that it is the responsibility of the masses to break off and create their own government once the current one becomes corrupt.

But I digress . . . The point is that in order to exchange ideas, people must make assertions that maintain that another's stance is wrong; a person does not become truly closed-minded until (s)he refuses to acknowledge that there exist other valid ways to percieve things than his or her own model.
This is not entirely accurate. I dont try to argue or debate while thikning that the other person is wrong, because to them, they arent, and the most important thing we need to find out is why each of us think the way we do, instead of just what. But yes, I do realize most people dont even have a frame of reference for such a concept.

But why does closed-minded have to have such a negative connotation? When applied in the right circumstances, a closed mind is a valuable asset. For instance, rape sucks. I will never rape anybody. I will never condone rape. As far as my mind is concerned on rape- well, let's just say that it's closed. And I am not only glad about that, I proudly announce it to the world. Obviously it is bad to come to a point in one's life wherein one's mind is closed to ANY new ideas (or is that a closed-minded statement, too?), on that point we find agreement. But to label a person closed-minded because that person's own analytical introspection has led him or her to a deeply maintained principal on a debateable issue- a conviction from which (s)he will never be shaken, even- seems shortsighted.
I think the concept of open and closed is overused, of course no one should be open to anything that harms another. And yes, conviction is important. Yet, to the christian mindset for example, they feel convicted to feel the way they do. Strongly. There is a balance between conviction and progression that must be maintained if we are to get anywhere. I must admit I fall strongly on the progression side, usually it's Fuck the rest, let's move forward. I have no patience.

If a person wants to deny the existence of god and to acclaim that denial as fact, I cannot necessarily label that person as closed-minded. His or her mind may be closed on the topic- and I may disagree with that closure, but that is not evidence of a full closure. It seems to me sometimes (often in frustration) that an open-minded person must arrive at the conclusion that the existence of deity (in whatever form) can neither be proven nor refuted- after all, my open mind leads me to that conclusion. But that is the kind of thinking that I find to be truly closed-minded. However, I feel quite secure in my open-mindedness when I say that the God implied by Christianity DOES NOT FUCKING EXIST! If I had no backup for such a statement, then maybe it would be fair to label me closed-minded. However, I have plenty of rational inferences and historical facts to corroborate my belief. In fact, that belief- or that closure of the mind- is the result of a decades-long litany of open-minded thought (the details of which are posted all over this forum, so I will not bore people with it again).
This is the paragraph I wanted to address most. I must ask you, what of the gods of old? Did they not exist? When the people prayed, did the gods not answer? When christians pray, does their God not answer? They did answer, and He does answer those who believe in him. The power of the mind is immeasurable. If we are responsible for creating our own realities, then anything we lend our energy to becomes manifested. The God of christianity does exist, although I choose to not follow that route. He exists because he is believed in. Preayer works simply because when people focus their energy on something, even if they attribute it to a higher power, that energy affects the situation. You cannot get around this. This is why lots of people swear by prayer and christianity, because they have seen it work, felt it working, and are not yet ready to attribute it to themselves.

[swampyfool]

If a person wants to deny the existence of god and to acclaim that denial as fact, I cannot necessarily label that person as closed-minded. His or her mind may be closed on the topic- and I may disagree with that closure, but that is not evidence of a full closure. It seems to me sometimes (often in frustration) that an open-minded person must arrive at the conclusion that the existence of deity (in whatever form) can neither be proven nor refuted- after all, my open mind leads me to that conclusion. But that is the kind of thinking that I find to be truly closed-minded. However, I feel quite secure in my open-mindedness when I say that the God implied by Christianity DOES NOT FUCKING EXIST! If I had no backup for such a statement, then maybe it would be fair to label me closed-minded. However, I have plenty of rational inferences and historical facts to corroborate my belief. In fact, that belief- or that closure of the mind- is the result of a decades-long litany of open-minded thought (the details of which are posted all over this forum, so I will not bore people with it again).

This is the paragraph I wanted to address most. I must ask you, what of the gods of old? Did they not exist? When the people prayed, did the gods not answer? When christians pray, does their God not answer? They did answer, and He does answer those who believe in him. The power of the mind is immeasurable. If we are responsible for creating our own realities, then anything we lend our energy to becomes manifested. The God of christianity does exist, although I choose to not follow that route. He exists because he is believed in. Preayer works simply because when people focus their energy on something, even if they attribute it to a higher power, that energy affects the situation. You cannot get around this. This is why lots of people swear by prayer and christianity, because they have seen it work, felt it working, and are not yet ready to attribute it to themselves.

I agree with you. The concept of Christianity's god carries a certain weight of reality (and by association, so do ye gods of olde) because of the very circumstances that you describe. However, the entity that Christians endow with the title of "creator" cannot exist- also because of the very circumstances that you describe- as only one can be the creator and the other must be the created. It is as you say (forgive my paraphrasing, and mayhap slight embellishment)- the people who believe in god as creator are not yet ready to see that they create that entity with their own belief (deities- each and every one of us). I may have posted this very thought in this thread before- I can't remember, but- it all comes down to the difference between god creating man in his image and man creating god in our image. The latter acknowledges the power of the human mind and the power of the collective minds of humankind; while the former may even be responsible for the stagnation of human evolution . . .

Allow me to elaborate . . . As you say, the power of the human mind to effect the very nature of reality is remarkable, if not terribly remarked upon. Thus, if a significant portion of the population believe that they exist in the perfect and unimprovable form of the creator, maybe their collective wills present an obstacle to the normally unencumbered torrent of biological evolution.

"You ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Eyes real close together; big, furry hands and feet?
'I believe god created me in one day.'
Well, it looks like he rushed it . . .
While I appreciate your quaint traditions, superstitions, and f- ya know. I, on the other hand, am an evolved being who deals solely with the source of light that exists in all of us- in our minds- no middleman required. Ahahahahaha. But anyway, I appreciate your little games and shit: puttin' on the tie, and goin' to church, ahdidahdidah-
BUT YOU KNOW THERE IS A LIVING GOD THAT WILL TALK DIRECTLY FUCKING TO YOU! Sorry, not from the pages of the bible that FORGOT TO MENTION DINOSAURS!"
-Bill Hicks, Arizona Bay, Dinosaurs in the Bible/Living God

So I'm not the only one who thinks this way! I know maybe I've taken a little liberty with that last claim, but we'll never get to ask. Moment of silence for Bill . . .










Look, I don't disagree with anything you said, I just think that our two statements do not necessarily preempt one another.

[swampyfool]

waste of time.....opinons would be respected a lot more if words such as "is" didn't exist!!! (maynard "is" (blank)...tool "is" (blank).....religion "is" (blank)) you have no idea what "is" or "isn't" and neither do i. please, if you want to express an opinion, leave the "is" out of the opinion. NO ONE can be all-knowing.

I'm refering to open statements not facts.....(maynard "is" or "isn't" christian), who are we to state this? If someone can prove this by means other than: "by reading maynards lyrics in blah blah blah, it is easy to deduct that he is not christian" by saying "is" in this statement, they are saying that what they stated is (lol) a fact, when this statement is an opinon.

basically you hit it on the head, using "is" refers to facts, not opinions. So when stating an opinon it seems to be more appealing to leave the "is" out of it. This will lead to intellectual discussions, rather than pointless arguing.

I respect this point of view (to a degree), I just cant get behind redundancy. Just because I say A is B in this forum, doesn't mean I think that I know all, it just means that I see no need to continually assert that this is my opinion WHEN I AM POSTING IN THE OPINION SECTION OF THIS SITE.

Sorry for yelling. Thank you for listening.

[BlanketEffect]

Allow me to elaborate . . . As you say, the power of the human mind to effect the very nature of reality is remarkable, if not terribly remarked upon. Thus, if a significant portion of the population believe that they exist in the perfect and unimprovable form of the creator, maybe their collective wills present an obstacle to the normally unencumbered torrent of biological evolution.


So I'm not the only one who thinks this way! I know maybe I've taken a little liberty with that last claim, but we'll never get to ask. Moment of silence for Bill . . .



I agree, let me say this about prayer/results, however.

God(s) don't answer prayer. Prayer is just like... focused meditation. Meditation with purpose, for lack of a better term. Enough people with enough willpower can change the fabric of reality.

Otherwise the whole "I''ve been diagnosed with cancer so my prayer circle at church is praying for me to get better" - does that mean if you get enough people to pray for you then God lets you live and if you didn't get a whole circle to pray for you God lets you die? What is the point of His "Master Plan" if all you need are a dozen devout praying people to change His mind?

The idea of "God" answering prayers is absurd because it implies that the results might be different if 20 people pray for something than if you prayed for it alone. Meaning God is supposedly changing the fabric of the universe on kind of a democracy, but if you're alone in your struggle then *fuck you* - you don't have enough lobbying power to get God to intervene for you.

At least in my theory it accounts for why any group of people praying can achieve results, and not just ones that ascribe to a certain religion/god.

(G)od(s) bless Bill.

[bellamadia]

Awesome posts by Successfully, Paraflux and Blanket!! I like where this thread has gone since I've been away.

On a seperate note, while I was in Italy I saw MANY MANY churches.

While everyone one was basking in their glory and beauty (and they were absolutely stunning) all I could think about was all of the blood shed and manipulation it must have taken to afford the architecture and artwork in these churches. I looked around and thought, how could we have gotten it so wrong?