What's wrong with this song: Maynard's views on angels

[NoD]

It's so simple it's sickening. And not only that, but Maynard is siding with the fucking angels. WTF.

He's acting as if angels are so perfect and peaceful. The entire fucking reason we're in this existential mess in the first place is because THE ANGELS waged war in heaven. Lucifer led the rebellion, which led to his tempting of man. If angels can't even live peace, what chance do humans have. It's a never ending cycle of war, and maynard handles it like a 12 yr old who just came out of church.

[evil agent]

Ever thought of taking it metaphorically? Jesus...

[xPOGOx]

Uh...according to the most popular creationist story we're "in this existential mess" is because Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and Adam failed to stop her, and then God banished them from the Tree of Life and the Garden of Eden.

Sure, the serpent tempted them...and by traditional Christians, the serpent is tied to evil and satan...but that's not how everyone sees it.

God is not inherently good or evil.
The serpent is not inherently evil or good.
Eating from the Tree of Knowledge is not an inherently evil act.

By listening to the serpent and choosing to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, Eve sought enlightenment. To understand instead of simply accepting. Having eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve became aware of their nudity, etc.

It's almost as if...good and evil do not really exist, but because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of good and evil, we believe in good and evil.

Do you not find it weird that some worshippers claim themselves to be good, while claiming that other worshippers are evil? Really, they're worshipping the same God. They simply have different beliefs about the history of it all...

[Rod]

Actually it sounds like the person is getting shut down from becoming an angel doesn't it?

At the end of 'Wings for Marie' doesn't it sound like a door slam? Like the soul's getting negged...

"If you should see your maker look them in the eye and tell them: I never lived (told) a lie, I never took a life, and surely saved one."

Why all the rules for religeon? Why so complicated? Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone lived this way?

[SagEarthDragon]

Yeah, angels are not perfect... they're friggin' boss is a boss. The boss gave us a tool, and angels are jealous. If not stumped, then they're just jealous.
Anyone ever read, "Memnoch the Devil" by Anne Rice? It has a lot of ties with this song.
I have to give it to the angels though, they're already fugitives, they questioned their lord.

[Eussiah]

I'm at a loss to why everyone wants to interpret "angels" as Judeo-Christian biblical figures. Maybe it's not Tool that's being simple here.

In Wings for Marie Maynard asks "What have I done to be a son to an angel?" I really don't think he's talking about a biblical angel with wings and harp. He's using the word "angel" to denote a thing of beauty.

When lovers call each other "angel" or parents call their children "angel," they are using it as a metaphor to describe someone who is precious, beautiful, kind, gentle, etc. Someone who they place above the rest of humanity, someone they care a great deal about.

So, angels on the sidelines in Right in Two. Maybe he's just talking about people like his mother, who wouldn't engage in the silly wars of the monkeys. Maybe he's talking about the innocent civillians who are better than that, people who are "puzzled and amused" by all the fighting. People like himself.

I think all the religious imagery in this song is metaphor. He's not talking about humans and divine angels of the heavenly host. He's talking about two kinds of humans: those who are like "angels," and those who are dim witted monkeys. Humanity divides itself right in two. Two kinds of people: the ones who want to live in peace and enjoy life and do good things, and the ones who can't get past their own primitive urges to fight and ruin everything. One kind ruins it for the other.

[3rdcancer]

didn't the idea of the war in heaven between the Devil and his crew originate from "Paradise Lost?"

[reflected]

I'm at a loss to why everyone wants to interpret "angels" as Judeo-Christian biblical figures. Maybe it's not Tool that's being simple here.

In Wings for Marie Maynard asks "What have I done to be a son to an angel?" I really don't think he's talking about a biblical angel with wings and harp. He's using the word "angel" to denote a thing of beauty.

When lovers call each other "angel" or parents call their children "angel," they are using it as a metaphor to describe someone who is precious, beautiful, kind, gentle, etc. Someone who they place above the rest of humanity, someone they care a great deal about.

So, angels on the sidelines in Right in Two. Maybe he's just talking about people like his mother, who wouldn't engage in the silly wars of the monkeys. Maybe he's talking about the innocent civillians who are better than that, people who are "puzzled and amused" by all the fighting. People like himself.

I think all the religious imagery in this song is metaphor. He's not talking about humans and divine angels of the heavenly host. He's talking about two kinds of humans: those who are like "angels," and those who are dim witted monkeys. Humanity divides itself right in two. Two kinds of people: the ones who want to live in peace and enjoy life and do good things, and the ones who can't get past their own primitive urges to fight and ruin everything. One kind ruins it for the other.

You expressed your opinion in a very clear way.
I enjoyed.

[ObliviousHypocrite]

Who are the "angels on the sideline"... the good or fallen angels?

This song reminds me of the movie "The Prophesy", with Christopher Walken. In it, CW plays a fallen angel. The reason he joined the fallen angels: In the beginning, the angels were God's chosen ones. Then God created man and forced the angels to serve both He and mankind. Of course, a lot of angels felt like God had forsaken them although they had done nothing wrong. Worst of all was watching how these "monkeys" behaved. How could God love these "repugnant" monkeys while turning his back on the angels? How could mankind just squander His love?

Seems to me like the angels in the song share the same philosophy as the fallen angels.

[Simonic]

True -- it may be using "angels" and the "dim witted monkey" as a comparison between the various types of people on earth.

However, the lyrics, and word choice suggest otherwise.

"Why did Father give these humans free will"
"...know that Eden has enough to go around? Plenty in this holy garden..."
"Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven..."

Using these phrases -- it is almost directly relating it to the Judeo-Christian idea of angels, and their watching what is taking place. If it were merely "good" and "bad" people -- the mention of free will wouldn't make sense unless they believed in God. And , if that is the case -- the mention of free will as a bad thing wouldn't make sense. Most Christians think free will is what gives them the ability to choose and follow God.

Angels aren't allowed to directly interfere with the affairs of humans. They're able to watch -- but salvation wasn't given to them. They turned while in direct witness of God. This I also find interesting -- that you have the angels asking these questions -- while they too were "cut in two." But -- the word choice was not angels and demons -- but merely angels, the messengers of God.

I half view the phrase "right in two" in mans division of everything. Always wanting something for ourselves. This idea seems to be supported through dividing the garden, the 'fight over' segment. We'll divide anything that we have.

Ah -- I'm gonna hush up. Overall, I believe it is speaking about the heavenly host angels.

[Simonic]

Who are the "angels on the sideline"... the good or fallen angels?


Would the fallen angels view giving the humans free will bad? Or wondering why Father gave them reason as bad? In the end -- it ultimately supports "their" cause.

Unless -- its the fallen angels viewing it in amazment. They know why they fell -- but they don't know why these humans are so screwed up. Logically -- this idea just doesn't seem to exactly fit.

[MarthFTW]

All I know about angels is that they can probably do shit like run up walls, do standing backflips and grab guns out of the hands of other people and then shoot them. They probably don't very often though, as I'm fairly certain they walk around holding akimbo pistols nearly all day, even while sleeping.

[erazorhead]

i now know slightly more about angels

edit - marthFTW, can our avatars be friends?

[Matt8]

boo this man

[MarthFTW]

i now know slightly more about angels

edit - marthFTW, can our avatars be friends?

I approve.

[AlphaGeek]

Hey, just keep it friendly....little 4x4 pixel avatars all over will creep me out.


Why is everyone so obsessed with the spiritual overtones in this album? Maynard has long been motivated to beat dodwn organized religion (with good reason I think). I think the loss of his mother has prompted much of the content in this album and his underlying theme is to refer to her God for answers through metaphor. Why dissect that? Take it for what it is and if the entire band turns into Christian prog metal, I'll keep all their discs right next to Kings X - that is within easy reach.

(oh yeah...there is no sarcsm in that post)

[fugitive538]

before this thread becomes a soulmate seeking avatars club, let me express my views on the topic :)
I think its not about angels being so peaceful and perfect. They're watching us from the sideline, and they dont understand why cant we appreciate the things we're given. And in their jealousy, they forget that back in time they did the same, they proved unworthy of the gift, and god turned his back on them. (that is quite natural i suppose - if you want to blame something you tend to forget that you have done the same mistakes before.) So now they now how precious its all. A short quote:

We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment,
We are choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside
This holy reality, this holy experience.
Choosing to be here in this body...
(...)
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing.

sound familiar? :)

Okay, I'm finished, go on lonely avatars :-)

[Pierrou]

I never really paid attention to the lyrics before yesterday, then I went to see the lyrics on the internet...
Such a bitter song, there lies the real beauty of it...

[DiSoLiDeYeS]

this song, imo, doesnt give any justification or anything towards angels rather it trys to give their opinion...in this realm they reside on the sidelines, there to ponder the idea of why god would allow "freewill" to be given to such creatures regarded as monkeys. I would agree they seem to advocate a train of thought consistent with the fallen. Its interesting to see the correlation between their ideas and maynards. Whether he believes himself to be equal could become an entire different thread. The real interesting thing about this song, and the album for that matter, is the consistent reference to biblical or religious imagry. Maynard is getting older his priorities have changed and imo APC has had a major impact on his vocal and lyrical approach.

[Assimilate13]

A quick thought on this subject of good v. fallen angels: There is also a story of "neutral angels" -- those who chose to side with neither god nor satan in the war. Since they are "on the sidelines", I was kinda thinking of the angels in the song in this way...

Anyone read Tom Robbins? He has an interesting discussion of the neutral angels in "Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates". They are also mentioned briefly in the myth of the Holy Grail...

[Teratoma]

wow so many of you are waaaaay off base. All I see is mere interpretation and twisting of what's really said. When you get the time read Genesis and Hebrews together. It explains everything very well.

[e1minsterz]

Eating from the Tree of Knowledge is not an inherently evil act.

Incorrect. by deliberately disobeying God, the act is inherantly evil. according to christianity, there are no half-truths or half-good actions, and by not being in the will of God, the action is evil. thanks

[e1minsterz]

before this thread becomes a soulmate seeking avatars club, let me express my views on the topic :)
I think its not about angels being so peaceful and perfect. They're watching us from the sideline, and they dont understand why cant we appreciate the things we're given. And in their jealousy, they forget that back in time they did the same, they proved unworthy of the gift, and god turned his back on them. (that is quite natural i suppose - if you want to blame something you tend to forget that you have done the same mistakes before.) So now they now how precious its all. A short quote:

sound familiar? :)

Okay, I'm finished, go on lonely avatars :-)

/agree i'm glad you said it in this many words cause it would haqve taken me alot more. i wish i could put this as second post so people wouldn't have to read down to yours.

[BSUfanatic]

This is all about how if there is more than one of us were going to try and divide the shit up, that's how we are. What's mine is mine and what's yours, I'm going to try and make mine because were all a bunch of greedy motherf**kers. Human Nature.

[SHIV]

Ever thought of taking it metaphorically? Jesus...
Exactly my point in the "Angles on the sideline..." thread.

[Carbonatedgravy]

For being so "simple" this song certainly is causing a lot of debate.

[swampyfool]

Incorrect. by deliberately disobeying God, the act is inherantly evil. according to christianity, there are no half-truths or half-good actions, and by not being in the will of God, the action is evil. thanks

That is a very organized view of Christianity. In my studies of religion, I find the text to be less absolute than what your typical preacher/priest/minister . . . seems to hold basic.

[AquaTarkus]

I think its not about angels being so peaceful and perfect. They're watching us from the sideline, and they dont understand why cant we appreciate the things we're given. And in their jealousy, they forget that back in time they did the same, they proved unworthy of the gift, and god turned his back on them. (that is quite natural i suppose - if you want to blame something you tend to forget that you have done the same mistakes before.) So now they now how precious its all.
I think almost everyone here is thinking too much. We're trying Toolize every song.
Fugitive has it right. Of course I could just be tired of wringing meaning out of every punctuation mark on the lyric sheet.
This is the first song to grab me when I ran through the album. It's poetic, beautiful and true (damn, I can say that about most Tool songs).
<Can't wait for the Boston show!>

[Melanos]

I said this in another post..............

How can the angels do anything? God gave us FREEWILL, if the angels or god ever interferred with the humans right to choose then the shit would hit the fan. I mean ( and please work with me here) God created everything from words spoken,"let there be light" and so on... so for God to take back his word would mean that God has flaws and that just cant be true, otherwise the universe wouldnt be able to work in harmony. Any thoughts? or am i completly wrong here?