Blasphemy in the lyircs

[Shomino]

You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fist at the gates saying,
"I have come home now!"

Fetch me the spirit, the son and the father,
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended.

"It's time now!
My time now!
Give me my
Give me my own wings!"...

Give me my (x5)

"Give me my own wings"


To command, or demand anything from God is blasphemous in the christian point of view...

So to think that MJK has become christian is quite a stretch... no christian would write lyrics like these.

I am not a christian, just commenting on what they believe and how they would view these lyrics.

[?Cogito Ergo Sum?]

I'm sorry you feel that way. The entire song (Parts 1 and 2) are some of the most hauntingly beautiful written and sang words I've heard come from Maynard. It's touching how it seems that he tries to take on the roll of his mother is, for lack of a better term, pissed off. From what I've heard, grain of salt in hand, for her to live that long suffering (Maynard probably knowing better than anyone) would make me want to shake my fist at the gates. For some of us it may just appear to be the clearing at the end of the path we come to when we die, others, through "trials and tribulations" could very well feel it to be a locked gate where they have to ask, plead, beg, or demand permission to enter.

But that's just in my humble opinion

[?Cogito Ergo Sum?]

I meant to say he was taking on the roll of his mother and she was pissed off, i think that should make better since.

[Shomino]

seriously: shut the fuck up.

Umm... OK. Wow you're great at discussion.

If you think I'm talking smack about MJK, you're completely out of your gourd.

It seems to me that he's angry at the suffering she was put through, and that he believes she deserves a place in heaven for all the good she has done in her life.
I would agree. I don't believe that the only way to peace after death is by accepting the christian dogma. I do believe that the good things we do in our lives are worth something, christian or not.

I have come close to being atheist many times simply because of all of the suffering and evil that exists in this world (much of it caused by supposed christians). I wonder how a god that loves us could allow all the genocide and atrocities that happen every day.

Once again, I am agnostic. So someone being "blasphemous" by christian standards doesn't offend me. I am simply saying that by accepted christian standards demanding anything of "God" is blasphemous. I am also not saying that his mother was blasphemous in any way, but I would say MJK has been before in his lyrics.

If you disagree, I dare you to prove me wrong. "Shut the fuck up" Is a moronic response, learn2debate dickhead.

P.S.

Make me.

[markovnikov]

seriously: shut the fuck up.
exactly.

[Shomino]

exactly.

Once again. Make me. A discussion forum is for exactly that, discussion. So if you don't like my views, spell it out, I'll listen.

I'm here to listen to ideas and thoughts. "Shut the fuck up" and "exactly" are neither. They're reactionary drivel. Think, speak, learn.

Or "Shut the fuck up". Thank you.

[prohibitedart]

I think you're right. Maynard is definitely not Christian; he's expressed these views throughout albums over the years. Tool are more about spirituality than anything.
The song "10,000 Days" is expressing his mother's faith, possibly, so that's why there's all sorts of allusions to Christianity. He may not be Christian, but he feels his mother's beliefs and wishes should be represented.

[Shomino]

I think you're right. Maynard is definitely not Christian; he's expressed these views throughout albums over the years. Tool are more about spirituality than anything.
The song "10,000 Days" is expressing his mother's faith, possibly, so that's why there's all sorts of allusions to Christianity. He may not be Christian, but he feels his mother's beliefs and wishes should be represented.

Yes, I think he's the one shaking his fist at the skies saying: "She deserves to be in heaven!". He's not saying his mother would say these things, it's what he's saying.

[troutp]

I think it's more blasphemous that he says the holy trinity backwards, which makes an upside down cross.

[clarity.]

To command, or demand anything from God is blasphemous in the christian point of view...

So to think that MJK has become christian is quite a stretch... no christian would write lyrics like these.

I am not a christian, just commenting on what they believe and how they would view these lyrics.

wrong. terribly wrong.

i am a Christian, and i've read the Bible. in the psalms, David cried out to God and made demands of God. God isn't a stiff "Shut your mouth and sit there" kind of entity, in fact, He wants His children to speak their woes and their problems to Him.

i think the point maynard is making is that his mother is the only person who could stand up and take responsiblity for what she has done in the face of God - because maynard sees her as flawless, virtually. i seriously doubt maynard has changed his ways, as evident in the lines about his arrogance and disbelief. but he respects his mother's beliefs and clearly represents that in this song.

[Shomino]

wrong. terribly wrong.

i am a Christian, and i've read the Bible. in the psalms, David cried out to God and made demands of God. God isn't a stiff "Shut your mouth and sit there" kind of entity, in fact, He wants His children to speak their woes and their problems to Him.

i think the point maynard is making is that his mother is the only person who could stand up and take responsiblity for what she has done in the face of God - because maynard sees her as flawless, virtually. i seriously doubt maynard has changed his ways, as evident in the lines about his arrogance and disbelief. but he respects his mother's beliefs and clearly represents that in this song.

Hmm... well it appears I stand corrected. I guess I have more to learn about christianity than I thought.

[kaspguy]

I think it's more blasphemous that he says the holy trinity backwards, which makes an upside down cross.


I don't think that was intended, especially with the whole context of the song being how he respects his mother's beliefs.

[Shomino]

I think it's more blasphemous that he says the holy trinity backwards, which makes an upside down cross.

Wow. I totally missed that, very interesting point.

I don't think that was intended, especially with the whole context of the song being how he respects his mother's beliefs.

Do you really think it was unintentional? From what I've seen, Maynard is very deliberate and calculated in the way he presents his lyrics. This is what makes him one of my favorite songwriters, in that he is completely conscious of the meanings, double meanings, etc. of his lyrics.

Especially with his knowledge of religion, the occult, and spirituality I would guess that he is fully aware of the significance of this. He is also not the slightest bit afraid of controversial lyrics.. just look at APC's "Judith":

"F*ck your God, your Lord, your Christ!"

He obviously doesn't have a HUGE amount of respect for Christianity, or he wouldn't be saying things like this... right?

[Locarius]

If you think to question God is unChristian, go take a quick look at the book of Job (which many thing to be the oldest book in the Bible).

[Mozeley]

I think that Maynard is saying that his Mother has been a devout christian all her life, and never strayed from those beliefs, even when faced with the criminal adversity of being confined to a wheelchair. And because of thi,s then demand to be treated like an Angel, as she ,above everybody else has deserved it, because of the way that she lived her life.

[Shomino]

I think that Maynard is saying that his Mother has been a devout christian all her life, and never strayed from those beliefs, even when faced with the criminal adversity of being confined to a wheelchair. And because of thi,s then demand to be treated like an Angel, as she ,above everybody else has deserved it, because of the way that she lived her life.

I don't think there is any question about this. From what I've seen, pretty much everyone on this forum agrees with you in this interpretation of the lyrics.

The question really is.. does this mean he has more respect for Christianity than he has had in the past? In previous lyrics, he has been pretty scathing in his assesment of Christians and their beliefs. (just look at Opiate)

Just because he believes his mother deserves to be treated like an angel in the afterlife doesn't necessarily mean he ascribes to the Christian doctrine and set of beliefs.... or does it?

[Mozeley]

I don't think there is any question about this. From what I've seen, pretty much everyone on this forum agrees with you in this interpretation of the lyrics.

The question really is.. does this mean he has more respect for Christianity than he has had in the past? In previous lyrics, he has been pretty scathing in his assesment of Christians and their beliefs. (just look at Opiate)

Just because he believes his mother deserves to be treated like an angel in the afterlife doesn't necessarily mean he ascribes to the Christian doctrine and set of beliefs.... or does it?

I don't think so no. I think he just has more respect for his mother than he did in the past...ie the song Judith.

[Mike Okherts]

I don't think so no. I think he just has more respect for his mother than he did in the past...ie the song Judith.

Judith was not a song of disrespect towards his mother. There is an article in which he actually clarifies the lyrics. You should maybe read it.

[Bloody]

Judith was not a song of disrespect towards his mother. There is an article in which he actually clarifies the lyrics. You should maybe read it.

Yes, but I always thought although Judith is a nice song bashing someones religion is wrong.

[Hagbard]

Maynard hasn't become a Christian; the references to Christianity in the lyrics of 10,000 Days are not espousing Chirstianity, they're acknowledging his respect for his mother's devotion to her faith.

[Bakeup]

I think Maynard has more respect for and a better understanding of Christianity now, after his mother's death than before. He wrote Judith while she was still alive, in an angry state, wanting to know why his mother still believed even though she's been paralyzed for a long time.

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you

I think Wings and Days are about his coming to terms with his mother's faith that never waivered, ever. He has realized that his mother's faith will be rewarded through her God, and that she saved his life (though how, I'm not sure).

[?Cogito Ergo Sum?]

I think Maynard has more respect for and a better understanding of Christianity now, after his mother's death than before. He wrote Judith while she was still alive, in an angry state, wanting to know why his mother still believed even though she's been paralyzed for a long time.

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you

I think Wings and Days are about his coming to terms with his mother's faith that never waivered, ever. He has realized that his mother's faith will be rewarded through her God, and that she saved his life (though how, I'm not sure).

Thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say earlier. I believe the state of mind I ws in at the time of writing was a little hazed. I could not have ever said it better.

[Elepherious]

To command, or demand anything from God is blasphemous in the christian point of view...

So to think that MJK has become christian is quite a stretch... no christian would write lyrics like these.

I am not a christian, just commenting on what they believe and how they would view these lyrics.


no, to consider oneself a god is blasphemous, the act of blasphemy isnt going against god, its acting as if you are, many lines in the bible, have people demanding things from god.

if your talking about people like judith, (from what i know of her) yes, they wouldnt have written talked to god like this, however if your talking about todays hypichristians, then by all means they would.

if your not christian then who are you to talk for them?

[Existence]

wrong. terribly wrong.

i am a Christian, and i've read the Bible. in the psalms, David cried out to God and made demands of God. God isn't a stiff "Shut your mouth and sit there" kind of entity, in fact, He wants His children to speak their woes and their problems to Him.

i think the point maynard is making is that his mother is the only person who could stand up and take responsiblity for what she has done in the face of God - because maynard sees her as flawless, virtually. i seriously doubt maynard has changed his ways, as evident in the lines about his arrogance and disbelief. but he respects his mother's beliefs and clearly represents that in this song.

This is my first post. I could never put a reply greater than this. There is no blasphemy in the lyrics to this song. It shouldn't even be under debate.

[Beer]

I think Maynard has more respect for and a better understanding of Christianity now, after his mother's death than before. He wrote Judith while she was still alive, in an angry state, wanting to know why his mother still believed even though she's been paralyzed for a long time.

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you

I think Wings and Days are about his coming to terms with his mother's faith that never waivered, ever. He has realized that his mother's faith will be rewarded through her God, and that she saved his life (though how, I'm not sure).
I'm not so sure I agree with your take on Judith. At first, and at second, and probably every other time you hear it, it sounds terribly disrespectful to his mother. However, after listening to Wings and Days I think you can look at Judith in an entirely different context.
You're such an inspiration for ways
That i will never ever choose to be.
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How your savior has abandoned you.
Maynard will never be Christian, but his mother is such an impressively devout Christian that she should be an inspiration to other, less devout, Christians, the hypocrites and the liars. He could talk for days about how she should lack devotion to her savior.
Fuck your god.
Your lord, your christ
He did this,
Took all you had
And left you this way.
Still you pray, never stray,
Never taste of the fruit.
Never thought to question why.
Maynard voices his original frustrations at her unwavering faith. He is marvelling at the sustained faith of his mother in the face of adversity. Always avoiding temptation, always worshipping.
It's not like you killed someone.
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side.
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed.
He did it all for you.
He did it all for you.
Maynard is saying his mother has no reason to feel she deserved what she got. She should have no reason to think it was a kind god's will. Yet she stays devoted.
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you.
Pray to your christ, to your god.
Never taste of the fruit,
Never stray, never break,
Never choke on a lie,
Even though he's the one who did this to you
Never thought to question why.
Still marvelling at how she doesn't blame her condition on a failure of her beliefs or God. Biggest counter-point to my interpretation I think is the "Never choke on a lie" line. There are a lot of interpretations for that. Does she never choke on them because she swallows them without noticing? Or does she refuse to even try and swallow them, choosing instead to stay the devoted course regardless of the faults to be found in religion? Remember the inspiration line? Is she an inspiration to other Christians because of this? Because she can remain devoted, focused, content, without even worrying about the trivial things that organized religion all too often frets over?
It's not like you killed someone.
It's not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side.
Talk to jesus christ as if he knows the reasons why
He did this all to you.

He did it all for you.
He did it all for you.
He marvels at her belief that God had a reason for doing what he did to her.

If you want to get really creative, you could interpret the "He did it all for you" comments differently as well. Do they mean He instilled so much faith in her? Do they mean He tested her to prove her faith to others? Are they bitter comments as many believe? Do they mean that regardless of whether or not she drove the spiteful spear, Jesus took the pain for her salvation, one of her major beliefs? Personally I think it all goes back to the "inspiration" line at the beginning. I think Maynard acknowledges that if he believed in her god, he would be very angry with that god. However, I think he understands he has no right to criticize the beliefs of someone so devoted that in the face of extraordinary adversity they stay the course of faith.

Just my silly interpretation.

[win]

To command, or demand anything from God is blasphemous in the christian point of view...

So to think that MJK has become christian is quite a stretch... no christian would write lyrics like these.

I am not a christian, just commenting on what they believe and how they would view these lyrics.


I don't think this is blasphemy. The part where he is talking about the pathetic congration definitely is. But here he is not being sarcastic or anything. Rather he is talking from his mothers' POV and then his on and then hers again. He is saying that in the world of christianity she withstood every tribulation possibile. He is proud of her although he completely disagrees philisophically

[Mozeley]

Judith was not a song of disrespect towards his mother. There is an article in which he actually clarifies the lyrics. You should maybe read it.

Yeah, I should re-phrase that. He has more respect for his mothers beliefs than he did in the past.

[evil agent]

For anyone that thinks Maynard is Christian, or would never speak blasphemy..

I once again point out the lyric "Fuck your god!" True, its from APC, not Tool, but that makes Maynard's views pretty clear, IMHO. In Wings he is being more respectful, definitely, but he is not-NOT-turning full circle and suddenly taking on his mother's beliefs.

[hbynoe]

he is telling her story through her faith...through him. she becomes someone that can ask for certain things, through her unwaivering faith and belief in god, he sees it fit to have her demand her divinity becuase of her love and faith in god. this song is about finally accepting someone you love life as they lived it. what greater ode could he have sung to her, he thinks and believes that she deserves wings..so he is demanding it through her. once again i love the way he writes and formalizes, moving from second person, to first person and back, switching perspectives.

it is selfish for christians to demand anything.
but as her son, his interpretation of her faith
is now one that should be rewarded with
heaven, wings, light, the endless paradise
of her beliefs.

[Shomino]

no, to consider oneself a god is blasphemous, the act of blasphemy isnt going against god, its acting as if you are, many lines in the bible, have people demanding things from god.

if your talking about people like judith, (from what i know of her) yes, they wouldnt have written talked to god like this, however if your talking about todays hypichristians, then by all means they would.

if your not christian then who are you to talk for them?

I have to apologize for calling it "blasphemy", I didn't mean any disrespect by that. I guess it's because of my misperception of what "blasphemy" actually is...

I DO know that many christians don't like TOOL because of their criticism of religion.. my mother and sister included. So I do have some personal experience to speak from, not just a shot in the dark.

If it were actually "blasphemy" that means that MJK would be stoned as a punishment by ancient law...

Would he be Rosetta Stoned? ;)

[clarity.]

I don't think this is blasphemy. The part where he is talking about the pathetic congration definitely is. But here he is not being sarcastic or anything. Rather he is talking from his mothers' POV and then his on and then hers again. He is saying that in the world of christianity she withstood every tribulation possibile. He is proud of her although he completely disagrees philisophically

Congregation =/= God. Blasphemy is irreverent / profane acts against God. Not His followers. But the rest of your post is fine and I agree.

[Shomino]

Isn't the definition of "blasphemy" pretty fluid/malleable?

I'm pretty sure in ancient times even saying the word "Jehovah" was blasphemy, and you could be stoned for it... right?

[something_Dark]

seriously: shut the fuck up.



YEAH DUDE!! STFU!!

MAN DAYS HAS BROUGHT US A WHOLE NEW PILE OF FUCKTARDS!!!

[Luosdasa]

To command, or demand anything from God is blasphemous in the christian point of view...

So to think that MJK has become christian is quite a stretch... no christian would write lyrics like these.

I am not a christian, just commenting on what they believe and how they would view these lyrics.

U serious? Any christians out there... do tell, is that right? Because if so, i must say i lose quite a bit of respect for your religion (beleive it or not i dont mean you personal offence when i say this). Agnostic myself, i believe in a humble god, and if any god would consider it blashphemous to demand that a pious women who went through so much suffering, with faith intact, receive instant attention, and be given her rightfull place in heaven.... well, i wouldnt want to be in heaven with that god. There's enough up'emself people here on tainted earth, and ill be damned (literally) if im going to spend all eternity with a self rightious (lol, worst pun eva :P) fucking diety...

[Bakeup]

Isn't the definition of "blasphemy" pretty fluid/malleable?

I'm pretty sure in ancient times even saying the word "Jehovah" was blasphemy, and you could be stoned for it... right?

I bet you would.

[Happyfunball]

Why is it I hear "He did it for you all" instead of "He did it all for you". I know what the 'official' lyrics claim. I also know that the day Mer De Noms came out, a person posted complete lyrics to the entire cd. Lyrics that, incidentally, were then copy/pasted without changes to the official APC website (although not every song was presented with lyrics).

Has nothing to do with the arguement at hand. It just bugs me that everyone quotes Judith with "He did it all for you" when I simply can't hear it that way. My only thinking -- if it's right -- is that my pacing for the line is horribly off.

[incircles]

He did it all for Yoo-hoo.

[Ænemic]

Wow...

Man, some of you guys really get so nerved up over trivial details... you're never gonna know exactly what he meant. That was the most personal song he's written yet... and from what I can tell, it's not even directed at his fans as much as it his mother and God. It's between them three... and for us to enjoy and relate what we can to it. Make it mean what you want it to... his lyrics are always somewhat vague, I believe for that very purpose. So anyone could relate. That's why TooL's music is so damn moving to begin with.

I dunno.. all I know is what this song does to me, and it's incredible... What you need in order to fully understand and enjoy this song isn't a literal interpretation of the lyrics the way he wrote them. What you need is to have known someone who's died that you held in as high regard as he did his mother....and this song will take you somewhere else.

"Over-analyzing separates the body from the mind", remember?



Ænemic

[wags]

I think it's more blasphemous that he says the holy trinity backwards, which makes an upside down cross.

How does this work exactly? I don't remember anything about saying the trinity in a specific order in catechism. Also, how does 3 of anything make a cross?

[filter]

One dimensional humans. Get over yourselves. You know I was just about to convince myself this song and the album as a whole were something equal to tool's previous releases which were exceptional. But after reading you lot tear apart the vague and personal lyric of the lead singer I have changed my mind. This album required constant relistens and it started to grow on me only as an experience of someones meandering pain and confusion, something like a babbling fool on the verge of losing his mind.

Unlike you lot I don't think the lead singer's personal life is particularly interesting, nor the bands. Since when did music become about the ins and outs of the band. MTV cribs and family history special coming soon to a tv network near you.

"Don't be a stiff if you have trouble getting one." anon

[jazz]

For anyone that thinks Maynard is Christian, or would never speak blasphemy..

I once again point out the lyric "Fuck your god!" True, its from APC, not Tool, but that makes Maynard's views pretty clear, IMHO. In Wings he is being more respectful, definitely, but he is not-NOT-turning full circle and suddenly taking on his mother's beliefs.

if anything, the song judith was a release of sorts for maynard...all the anger he's built up throughout the years while watching his mother suffer.

imo, wings for marie and 10,000 days was maynard's way of paying respects to his mother while speaking to her in terms she understands with all the christian references. as someone else on the forums pointed out: he respected his mother's faith (and unending determination), not her religion.

if you take a look through tool's discography, you could definitely see maynard's personality evolve from one of anger and frustration to that of enlightenment, sprituality, and self-awareness. i'm glad maynard shared these songs with all of us.

[lucydog]

also the line "YOU are the light and the way they will only read about"

to be christian is to accept Christ as the way. the ONLY way. not your mom. not your dad. not your priest. to be a christian you accept Jesus as your lord and personal savior. go ask a priest, they will all back me up.

[Shomino]

How does this work exactly? I don't remember anything about saying the trinity in a specific order in catechism. Also, how does 3 of anything make a cross?

Traditionally, the trinity is said: " The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost(Spirit)".

I'm not sure, but I think in the catholic faith you say their names when making a cross symbol across your chest.

I'm not sure what the significance is of saying them backwards, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't accidental on MJK's part. It seems he has an extensive knowledge of religion and the occult. He's also pretty deliberate and symbolic in his songwriting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

P.S.

Sorry about the thread title, I should've made it a question mark. I would edit it if I could. This is more of a question and opinion thread than stating a fact.

[M.Luther]

I think what he means, is the holy ghost (a persons spirit) is more important than the other 2 and deserves to be mentioned first.

[Malek0713]

Especially with his knowledge of religion, the occult, and spirituality I would guess that he is fully aware of the significance of this. He is also not the slightest bit afraid of controversial lyrics.. just look at APC's "Judith":

"F*ck your God, your Lord, your Christ!"

He obviously doesn't have a HUGE amount of respect for Christianity, or he wouldn't be saying things like this... right?

Just to add to this, as well as saying "F*ck your god," he also (at the exact same time on a different layer) says "Thank your god."

I seriously doubt Maynard is a Christian, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever if he was.
Also, while I think Maynard may have a respect for Christianity, I think this song is more about his respect of his mothers unwavering faith regardless of what happened to her, and how that may have actually strengthened her faith instead of weakening it. Hence the line, "Tell Them Their pillar of faith has ascended."

But that's just my opinion.

[jazz]

he also (at the exact same time on a different layer) says "Thank your god."
if that's true, he obviously meant it in a sarcastic way.

[gorillamania]

Fresh perspective for those who enjoy thinking.

Marie could be the Virgin Mary.

Jesus was alive approximately 30 years, which is a little more than 10,000 days.

I thought the song was about Jesus before I knew anything about his mother.

If you look at the lyrics with this in mind, it makes a lot of sense.

"None of us have actually been there.
Not like you."

"Oh, what are they going to do when the lights go down
Without you to guide them all to Zion?"

"You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fists at the gates saying:
I have come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father.
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended."

I imagine Maynard to love the double entendra, he probably wants different people to take different things from the song.

My .02

[durkabajung]

is there a point here?

[Malek0713]

if that's true, he obviously meant it in a sarcastic way.

Checking the lyrics for Judith on www.aperfectcircle.com, the line I posted is correct. That's not to say he's not being sarcastic. He might be, and he might not be. Or perhaps he thinks Judith is thanking god, and he is the one saying f*ck your god.
I don't think any of us know for sure either way.

[TWENTY-THREE]

I'm Christian, I don't see anything blasphemous about these lyrics, i think they are more of a prayer if anything.

[wags]

Traditionally, the trinity is said: " The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost(Spirit)".

I'm not sure, but I think in the catholic faith you say their names when making a cross symbol across your chest.

I'm not sure what the significance is of saying them backwards, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't accidental on MJK's part. It seems he has an extensive knowledge of religion and the occult. He's also pretty deliberate and symbolic in his songwriting.

I'm not 100% positive that the order of the trinity is not connected to the sign of the cross, but as a Lutheran who attended Catholic school, not once did the issue of the order of these names arise. Yes, typically a prayer is ended with the sign of the cross and 'in the name of...', but the two are linked more by tradition than anything. Perhaps it just sounded better in the context of the song.

[ajapersuasia]

One dimensional humans. Get over yourselves. You know I was just about to convince myself this song and the album as a whole were something equal to tool's previous releases which were exceptional. But after reading you lot tear apart the vague and personal lyric of the lead singer I have changed my mind. This album required constant relistens and it started to grow on me only as an experience of someones meandering pain and confusion, something like a babbling fool on the verge of losing his mind.

Unlike you lot I don't think the lead singer's personal life is particularly interesting, nor the bands. Since when did music become about the ins and outs of the band. MTV cribs and family history special coming soon to a tv network near you.

"Don't be a stiff if you have trouble getting one." anon


Aren't you holier than thou...

Your statement is incredibly offensive. It is enjoyable to contemplate the various possible inspirations for TOOL songs. I am sure many of us have our own meanings for these songs regardless of our speculation as to where MJKs mind may have been when he wrote it.

Why are you even here if you don't care to discuss or humor possible meanings?

All art is open to interpretation and we can be elevated by it.

[djqwerty13]

wrong. terribly wrong.

i am a Christian, and i've read the Bible. in the psalms, David cried out to God and made demands of God. God isn't a stiff "Shut your mouth and sit there" kind of entity, in fact, He wants His children to speak their woes and their problems to Him.

i think the point maynard is making is that his mother is the only person who could stand up and take responsiblity for what she has done in the face of God - because maynard sees her as flawless, virtually. i seriously doubt maynard has changed his ways, as evident in the lines about his arrogance and disbelief. but he respects his mother's beliefs and clearly represents that in this song.

I dont really think he is even respecting her beliefs. IMO, He is blatantly saying that she is going to be standing at the gates of the heaven that doesnt exist, and screaming for a pair of wings that she wont get because there is not god, or pearly gates, or wings to be had. The entire song is in this drab sort of mood because he believe that his mother will have lived her life following her faith, all for naught.

[djqwerty13]

I'm Christian, I don't see anything blasphemous about these lyrics, i think they are more of a prayer if anything.

While I don't think the lyrics are blasphemous... they are definitely not a prayer. The reason his mother is shouting "give me my wings" at the gates to heaven is because she didnt receive them after her long life of devout faith. Maynard seems sad (in the song) that his mom will be denied the one thing that all people of faith are looking for... their trip to the afterlife to see all that they have lost.

[djqwerty13]

Wow...

Man, some of you guys really get so nerved up over trivial details... you're never gonna know exactly what he meant. That was the most personal song he's written yet... and from what I can tell, it's not even directed at his fans as much as it his mother and God. It's between them three... and for us to enjoy and relate what we can to it. Make it mean what you want it to... his lyrics are always somewhat vague, I believe for that very purpose. So anyone could relate. That's why TooL's music is so damn moving to begin with.

I dunno.. all I know is what this song does to me, and it's incredible... What you need in order to fully understand and enjoy this song isn't a literal interpretation of the lyrics the way he wrote them. What you need is to have known someone who's died that you held in as high regard as he did his mother....and this song will take you somewhere else.

"Over-analyzing separates the body from the mind", remember?



Ænemic


Nicely stated

[Happyfunball]

Wow...

Man, some of you guys really get so nerved up over trivial details... you're never gonna know exactly what he meant....

.... "Over-analyzing separates the body from the mind", remember?
Ænemic

I have to disagree in certain respects. I think I have a modest grasp on what many of these songs' intended meanings are, as well as a more personal experience that each of them offer me. I'm genuinely interested in hearing other people's thoughts on these songs as well. Such conversations really can't take place however unless others like myself have attempted to make sense of the lyrics as they were writen, and applied them either in terms of how it relates to themselves or how it may have applied to the writer, Maynard.

Where I also disagree with your thoughts is in cases just like this one where somebody is claiming certain things about the lyrics or about their meaning. I think it is not always the better part of valor to simply say that's the way somebody sees it and let it go. I think where there is a difference in opinion on the matter that both opinions should at least be presented, if for no other reason than for the fear of actually omitting one. But none of that can happen if, again, others have not attempted to rationalize and understand the lyrics as they are writen.

Now where I would probably agree however is the way some people tend to argue their points and indeed how absolute their conclusions are sometimes presented. I would catagorize that as over-analyzing at times, yes, but more often someone who hasn't considered certain additional angles or maybe just has an over-riding agenda to be propigated regardless of it's merit or accurate basis.

Within those terms, I understand I think the reasons why such a line was writen by Maynard in the first place regarding over-analyzing, and why it's apt at times within these very discussions. I also feel though that very little of what Maynard's writen is ever intended to be understood and accepted as an absolute. And I dare say that even some of Maynard's own lyrics were most likely generated from his own over-analyzation of particular subjects.

[toolish]

To command, or demand anything from God is blasphemous in the christian point of view...

So to think that MJK has become christian is quite a stretch... no christian would write lyrics like these.

I am not a christian, just commenting on what they believe and how they would view these lyrics.

so what?!

[stonypee]

what a messy forum. think before you monkeys speak.

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

[Jizzlobber]

I dont really think he is even respecting her beliefs. IMO, He is blatantly saying that she is going to be standing at the gates of the heaven that doesnt exist, and screaming for a pair of wings that she wont get because there is not god, or pearly gates, or wings to be had. The entire song is in this drab sort of mood because he believe that his mother will have lived her life following her faith, all for naught.

i agree with your post. also i like the person who noted that jesus was alive for aprox 10,000 days. we here rumours out the album title was about from the time his mother had her stroke to her death. excuse if im wrong if it wasnt a stroke.

but i also believe that tool purposly released/leaked the album on the net to piss off the record company. so who leaked the meaning of the album title? i wonder!!

i was at a catholic school. catholic and christians are simular. same basic meaning but catholics lean more towards to the virgin mary and christains lean more to jesus. i really dont know why the two religions are seperate but yet linked. anyone know why, pls let me know.

as for the sign of the cross. it goes.
"in the name of the father, son and holy spirit, amen" while you make a cross sign on your chest/heart. well thats how we were taught.

and just to comment, the more i was taught about god etc the more i hated it. at the start of my catholic high school life i was very keen and into the catholic way. i rememeber the nights of staying up and reading the bible. which btw once got me out of trouble because i fell asleep in class. best excuse ever. however the more i got taught the more i questions. how can you preach about god's 'perfect' kingdom with all the suffering, killing, and pain that we live in.

keep up with this topic. i like to hear more of everyones views.

[tuadeus]

In my view this is the most blasphemous song Maynard has ever written. Also the most touching, which makes it all the more dynamic.

It's blasphemous because of Maynard's direct presumption of God. In most of his religiously oriented songs Maynard's anger is directed toward members of the church or the church itself and not God. Take "Judith" for instance, Maynard is talking to his mother. He may say "fuck your God" but he is is distancing himself from the deity as if to say "fuck your silly little belief". He's mad at his mother for being so stubborn, continuing to believe and not realizing the seeming inconsistency between what she believes and what has happened to her. He never really goes beyond her to God himself. "Eulogy" only uses Jesus as a metaphor for a type of person so that's not so bad. Opiate seems to say that the Christan faith "blinds" one to reality and even more, puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of the clergy man who uses faith as a way to "rape" the believer. Again, Maynard talks very little about God proper. Other songs with tangential relationships to religion follow the same pattern.

"Wings" on the other hand, is the only time Maynard directs his words to God himself. Granted, he still uses his mother as a middle (wo)man. Speaking through is mother instead of saying it himself. Obviously there is irony here. Hie mother would never say those things as she is not so presumptuous of God (Dare i say, that she would be as offended as touched by her son's words). The irony gives the meaning of those words back to Maynard as if he were coaching her, telling her what she should do and say, basically talking to God himself.

Additionally, Maynard gets closer to acknowledging the christian God than ever before. All his other songs, as mentioned, are never directed toward god. He mostly just avoids the issues of "truth" as regards Christianity or seems to say it's blatantly false. Here Maynard doesn't even hint at the possible falsity of the christian God. In this song he seems to hold the christian God in a state of suspended belief. Yes, God is only an "if" in this song but that's as close as Maynard has ever come to saying God exists. Still, even if there is a chance this God his mother believed in so fervently actually exists he still thinks this God is an ass hole and still is going to tell God what is owed to his mother. That presumption of I've ever seen it!

Moreover, while placing himself in the direct presence of God for the first time he lifts up his mother as his savior. His mother's life is compared to that of Christ. It's almost as if he is looking at God and saying "she is my Christ, she is my savior, your just empty words on a page, Jesus is nothing, Judith is divine!" Again, to imply the possible existence of the "son" and then to replace him with Judith....to say that Judith trumps Jesus and to say that to Jesus' face! Blasphemy!

To stand up to God the almighty, to go before him and defend someone with such indignation, to be so very blasphemous, not because your proud or self-righteous, but because of your love for that person. That's what makes the lyrics to this song so powerful.

[PriyanPhoenix]

I don't think Shomino deserved the reaction he got here. He raised an interesting point. What I think is important to remember is that this is MJK taking on the roll of his mother for the song, but from his own perspective and not his mother's. The reason he respected his mother's beliefs above the myriad of religious believers he saw as hypocritical was that she remained unfaltering in her faith and didn't become "pissed off". It is Maynard expressing his frustration in those lines, "It's my time now" a cry for what he believes his mother now deserves.
It is essentially an outsider's view of a good Christian's ascension, not a Christian view.

[laxxx3204]

I dont think he's more respectful of christianity at all. If anything, he's pointing out how christianity should be. He's basically saying "you're the only one who deserves to walk up to the gates and demand your wings, and if they dont give them to you then thats fucked up." I think he's just more indignant towards christianity than anything else.

[Metalgod666]

anyone who thinks he's a christian should look back at Tool's older albums and see that he isn't. And yes WFM/TTD is still the best track off of TTD

[Existence]

"Who can deny, you're the one who illuminated 'my' little piece of the divine? This little light that you passed on to me. I'll let it shine to guide you safely on your way, your way home."

IMO - One of the top three Maynard lines ever recorded with Tool.

Also, I personally dont see how anyone can take perceptions of God and Heaven and automatically assume Christianity? There are millions of people who believe in both a deity and an afterlife who do not consider themselves 'Christian'. There are certainly no blasphemous moments in the lyrics. Period.

[NawnimNonNomen]

wrong. terribly wrong.

i am a Christian, and i've read the Bible. in the psalms, David cried out to God and made demands of God. God isn't a stiff "Shut your mouth and sit there" kind of entity, in fact, He wants His children to speak their woes and their problems to Him.

i think the point maynard is making is that his mother is the only person who could stand up and take responsiblity for what she has done in the face of God - because maynard sees her as flawless, virtually. i seriously doubt maynard has changed his ways, as evident in the lines about his arrogance and disbelief. but he respects his mother's beliefs and clearly represents that in this song.

Your take on what does/does not qualify as blasphemy is personal theology (i.e., your personal understanding), and I'm happy for you if it works for you. Your theology, though, doesn't match with catechism or a number of doctrines.

Let's look at it just from a language perspective, and see how fuzzy it gets:
Merriam-Webster defines "blasphemy" as "1 a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable ." In the case of the lyrics under discussion, some could clearly interpret them as blasphemy; the question largely becomes "What would God think?" Your personal theology (and I don't wish to attack it) allows you to say that God would be Ok with "Fetch me the Spirit, the Son and the Father," etc. Others would likely claim that God would be very much insulted. Some would even say that addressing a saint thus qualified as "irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable." Others would probably point out that these words are never (within the song's framework) directly spoken and use that to downplay blasphemy.

Yes, biblical literature does include a number of examples of people questioning or making demands of God; most of these tend to be Hebraic figures rather than Christian figures. And in many cases, these examples are negative examples. Elsewhere on the thread, someone mentions Job as an example, and "Job" seems to be very much a "stiff 'Shut your mouth and sit there' portrayal of God. After allowing Satan ("Tester") to take away Job's wealth, family and health, God's response to Job's reproach is basically to put Job in his place: this "smack-down" runs on from Chapter 38 until Job cries "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer thee? I will lay my hand upon my mouth." (38:4). And God still isn't finished with that; instead He goes on to show Job two monsters (Behemoth and Leviathan) that could destroy a man and indicates they're as nothing beside Himself. Scary "Shut up and sit there" God-stuff there.

This doesn't make your theology wrong; it just shows that there are diferent takes on the matter. Are the lyrics in 10k days blasphemous? It depends upon who's judging. Does the song show the sttrength of Maynard's feeling for his mother? I think so, and if it crosses a few lines in the process (both for some Christians and some Tool-fans), remember who it is setting down those lines-- those listening, not the person singing, since Maynard's obviously fine with moving in Eastern/Western, mystic/Christian frameworks.

Having said that, perhaps we could all go ahead and imagine a question mark after the thread-title (as the starter retrospectively suggested) and riff on that a while?