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TheManInBlack
05-06-2006, 12:03 AM
Viginti Tres means 23. It's track 11. The whole album has a connection to Maynard's mother Judith.


I was listening to this track with a friend of mine and we were discussing christian infulences in 10,000 days, and it clicked. I pulled out the nearest bible and opened it up. Funny enough it happened to be right at Judith, chapter 11. So I checked line 23.

"You are fair to behold, and your words are well spoken. If you do as you have said, your God will be my God; you shall dwell in the palace of King Nebuchadnezzar, and shall be renowned throughout the earth."


I think this might have been read at her Eulogy. The whole book of Judith is about a women's strength leading the jews, blah blah blah. So I reason it's the sound of her dying. Creepy eh?

Also wtf is he saying? It kinda sounds like Darth Vader saying "A Sister" From ROFD. Any thoughts?

xPOGOx
05-06-2006, 12:20 AM
King James version:

23: And now thou art both beautiful in thy countenance, and witty in thy words: surely if thou do as thou hast spoken thy God shall be my God, and thou shalt dwell in the house of king Nabuchodonosor, and shalt be renowned through the whole earth.



Just to clear things up...

Line 23 is Holofernes speaking to Judith.

Here's a summary of the book of Judith:
"The Assyrian King Nebuchadnezzar sent his chief general Holofernes to lead an army west to Judea. On the way, Holofernes plundered numerous towns, so that news of his approach reached across the land. Despite a warning from one soldier that the people of the western lands were defended by God, Holofernes planned to capture the small Jewish town of Bethulia. Hearing of Holofernes' plot, Judith, a widowed resident of Bethulia, put on beautiful clothes and jewelry and entered the Assyrian camp, purporting to be a spy against the Jewish people. She promised to tell Holofernes how to destroy the Jews; but when Holofernes became drunk at a celebration, she followed him into his tent and cut off his head. Thrown into chaos by the death of their leader, the Assyrian army was easily defeated by the Jews of Bethulia, who celebrated Judith's clever plot against Holofernes. Judith never remarried, but was celebrated for the rest of her life as the heroine of Bethulia." Source (http://demo.lutherproductions.com/bibletutor/level1/program/start/books/apocryph/judith.htm).

Think of MJK and his previous albums as Holofernes on his way to destroy Judea (attack Christianity, etc).

kaspguy
05-06-2006, 03:06 PM
Think of MJK and his previous albums as Holofernes on his way to destroy Judea (attack Christianity, etc).

So...I think maynard is saying with this album that he was wrong about christianity. Cause in wings for marie, it shows some serious tolerance of her religion and overall acceptance, and definatly admiration of it.

xPOGOx
05-06-2006, 11:14 PM
So...I think maynard is saying with this album that he was wrong about christianity. Cause in wings for marie, it shows some serious tolerance of her religion and overall acceptance, and definatly admiration of it.
That's what I'm kind of thinking too. He hasn't turned to Christianity necessarily, but he has definitely become more tolerant/understanding of it and those who celebrate it.

holotrope
05-07-2006, 05:12 AM
He has definitely recognized his mother's faith in God as something real and powerful, and seems to credit her for his being driven to investigate spiritual matters and connect to God, even if it was in a different way than she did.

reflection11
05-07-2006, 05:51 AM
I'm wondering if all this supposed acceptance or tolerance will keep Maynard from performing certain songs live anymore, especially Judith.

fugitive538
05-07-2006, 11:24 AM
well, since he said that APC is over, we wont see Judith live any more...
But i dont think this tolerance would influence anything on the tracklistings of the concerts.

Colonel Pants
05-07-2006, 11:40 PM
He certainly is tolerant on this album, but I thought his main gripe aobut Christianity to being with was the 'middle-men' who abuse their positions of power and influence, not necessarily the followers. I think he admires his mother for being able to have such a strong conviction, especially after suffering so badly.

insaner
05-07-2006, 11:57 PM
i must have missed the book of judith in my extensive studies of the king james bible, cause i certainly never saw it.

davelisowski
05-08-2006, 09:07 AM
The Book of Judith is a deuterocanonical book, included in the Septuagint and in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian Old Testament of the Bible, but excluded by Jews and Protestants.

KJV of the Bible is a Protestant version, which is probably why you didn't read the Book of Judith.

insaner
05-08-2006, 09:55 AM
KJV of the Bible is a Protestant version, which is probably why you didn't read the Book of Judith.

i am aware.

cynicis
05-08-2006, 12:16 PM
He has definitely recognized his mother's faith in God as something real and powerful, and seems to credit her for his being driven to investigate spiritual matters and connect to God, even if it was in a different way than she did.

I think this is really the crux of the album. My mother and I are similar. I'm atheist and she devoutly believes in a god, even if he isn't the Christian god. I think in the song "Judith" he was just angry at her for continuing to believe and trust in the person that "left [her] that way." I'm guessing he saw it as some kind of Nietzschean weakness to believe in a god. Now that she's gone and he's had time to reflect, he admires her fortitude even in the face of such incredible pain and suffering. Despite the fact that he always disagreed with her about points in religion, and possibly other philosophical issues as well, he has sort of come around and eulogized her with the respect that he feels she deserves. I don't necessarily think he's become any more tolerant of religion in general ("Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance"), I think he's kind of hoping that a god does exist, if only for his mother's sake. And if he does, he thinks that she deserves every amenity Heaven has to offer.

Systolic
05-08-2006, 12:21 PM
Wait... what Bible is this?

None of my Bibles contain Judith. Are you looking in the Apocryphal books of the Bible?

Its either that or the Catholic Old Testament...

DaraUtu
05-08-2006, 03:18 PM
i must have missed the book of judith in my extensive studies of the king james bible, cause i certainly never saw it.

The Book of Judith is a deuterocanonical book, included in the Septuagint and in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian Old Testament of the Bible, but excluded by Jews and Protestants. It has been said that the book contains numerous historical anachronisms, which is why many scholars now accept it as unreliable history — it has been considered a parable or perhaps the first historical novel.

Not all bibles will have this book in it.

hbynoe
05-08-2006, 09:24 PM
i must have missed the book of judith in my extensive studies of the king james bible, cause i certainly never saw it.
ditto.

Raddu
05-09-2006, 02:38 PM
I think this is really the crux of the album. My mother and I are similar. I'm atheist and she devoutly believes in a god, even if he isn't the Christian god. I think in the song "Judith" he was just angry at her for continuing to believe and trust in the person that "left [her] that way." I'm guessing he saw it as some kind of Nietzschean weakness to believe in a god. Now that she's gone and he's had time to reflect, he admires her fortitude even in the face of such incredible pain and suffering. Despite the fact that he always disagreed with her about points in religion, and possibly other philosophical issues as well, he has sort of come around and eulogized her with the respect that he feels she deserves. I don't necessarily think he's become any more tolerant of religion in general ("Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance"), I think he's kind of hoping that a god does exist, if only for his mother's sake. And if he does, he thinks that she deserves every amenity Heaven has to offer.

Exactly! Excellent post. I've had friends complaining that he's sold out to god and this is how I've responded to their ramblings.

AMF
05-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Very, very, very cool.

a perfect spiral
05-11-2006, 02:36 PM
your all playing out maynards life vicariously, how ironic.

Agenda
05-11-2006, 02:48 PM
I find it odd, how any of you every thought maynard hated christainity. Never has he said he hated christainity. Case in point " I don't hate christainity, I hate the middle men who fuck up the message"- maynard james keenan. Could it be that he just loves his mother and has admiration for her? On the dvd commentary during judith he talks about how her faith and the people around it were flawed. he also states that her faith was all she had and thats fine for her "but not for me".

martyr_02
05-11-2006, 09:50 PM
I think this is really the crux of the album. My mother and I are similar. I'm atheist and she devoutly believes in a god, even if he isn't the Christian god. I think in the song "Judith" he was just angry at her for continuing to believe and trust in the person that "left [her] that way." I'm guessing he saw it as some kind of Nietzschean weakness to believe in a god. Now that she's gone and he's had time to reflect, he admires her fortitude even in the face of such incredible pain and suffering. Despite the fact that he always disagreed with her about points in religion, and possibly other philosophical issues as well, he has sort of come around and eulogized her with the respect that he feels she deserves. I don't necessarily think he's become any more tolerant of religion in general ("Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance"), I think he's kind of hoping that a god does exist, if only for his mother's sake. And if he does, he thinks that she deserves every amenity Heaven has to offer.

You pretty much nailed it. I also believe that he is not necessarily adopting her beliefs or changing his in any way. I think that witnessing her unwavering faith may have shown him what possitive advantages faith can have for some people. I think that anyone has to respect someone who has that kind of faith, that in the face of great trajedy you don't blame your god.

phatfela1
05-13-2006, 08:07 PM
I was a really big APC fan and THEY ARE NOT DONE LIKE SOMEONE SAID. The writer of the APC site said you may see them again in 2007. I hope they are done and that he can totally concentrate on Tool now and more more Tool albums, but I can't rule out the possibility that maynard may continue this flip-flop thing...one Tool album, one APC album, one Tool album, etc... I don't think it has been officially stated that APC is over and done with.

bugchaser
05-13-2006, 08:12 PM
itd be fair to say maynard hates christianity because he wrote the songs opiate, sober, intolerance, judith, eulogy, the noose... and hating christianity generally means the proponents of it, who are fucking it up... because its inherently fucked up. just ask david hume

maggie2toes
05-14-2006, 10:11 AM
To me, the hate is not directed at the faith, or the TRULY faithful. It is aimed at those who blindly accept their "faith" -- but more so at those willing to take advantage of another's "faith" in a quest for personal (financial, political) gain.

In this country, Christianity is most prevelant making it the easiest target. Geography and religion are interwoven in such a way that it becomes obvious that region dictates the subtlety of most people's religious affiliation. It's not that all my neighbors truly felt a call to be southern baptists... it's that they were raised that way and were never motivated enough, brave enough, devoted enough to question the what and why of their actions.

I guess what I'm saying... Mistrust the leaders, disrespect the led, but be open to the possibility that there are individuals who find Christianity the truest path to their own enlightenment.

I don't get it either...

PriceisRight
05-14-2006, 11:47 AM
itd be fair to say maynard hates christianity because he wrote the songs opiate, sober, intolerance, judith, eulogy, the noose... and hating christianity generally means the proponents of it, who are fucking it up... because its inherently fucked up. just ask david hume

you can also evolve through time. Things/views change through different events and new viewpoints. While he may have denounced it and it's followers then....perhaps after the passing of his mother who had extreme faith....he is understanding it.

Oh....and judith doesn't outright bash christianity....it says how he can't understand why someone would follow a god that allowed her to become paralysed.

therandom
05-14-2006, 01:34 PM
Maynards mom was not Catholic

PriceisRight
05-14-2006, 05:41 PM
Maynards mom was not Catholic

who said she was catholic?

10,000 boobies
05-28-2006, 07:27 PM
hehe