New take on 'I forgot my pen'

[vjtrip]

I havent seen this anywhere else and came to this conclusion from an earlier trip on shrooms a few weeks ago.

Backround: Sitting around a campfire in Southern Utah (desert area) and listening to Lateralus. A conversation topic arises regarding Maynard and his vinyeard. Follow me here, cause this may be hard to explain....

When I first saw the website for his vineyard the little 'store area' said the bottles of wine were 'all sold out'. Now the other couple we were with are very wealthy people, they have all the goodies whereas me and my wife are pretty simple creatures, we dont care about money. As the other couple was off messing around in bed it became very humorous to me that Maynard would be the type of person to own a Vineyard and to the general public his wine is always 'sold out' But he would give it away to his friends, etc... thereby offering his close 'allies' a gift, rather than 'selling out' to the general public. Now think about that for a second. It is pure marketing genious, in a sick kind of way. No matter how much money you have you could never 'buy' what he has to offer, and taste what he is tasting, because its not for sale. Follw me?

Now the refernce to I FORGOT MY PEN follows the same principles. If you want to learn something you can buy a book, read it and ingest the information. If someone wants to learn how to be a 'doctor' they can go to school, ingest the information and wallah, they are a doctor. Now this is a basic exchange for us monkeys to read, learn, read, learn, and many people become accustomed to the fact that anything can be learned, and further more, it can be bought.

However, in order for something to be eligible for the last statement, it has to be able to be presented in words, in text, DO YOU NEED A RECIPT SHOWING PROOF THAT YOU GOT IT? The 'forgot my pen' statement overrides all of this. It breaks the barrier between what so many people in this world are accustomed to. You take a vacation, you take pictures... boom, there is your proof that you were there. Did you actually 'experience it' ir are you just happy you can add to your photo album? If you did have an experience, could you explain it? Could you write it down for me?

You cant write down on paper what alot of Tool songs relate to, compared to the feeling they can present. So whatever experience is taking place (ufo/drugs) may sort of be irrelevant compared to the overall message that if something could be explained in text, and you could write it down, that you may be simply dealing with lego's and tinker toys, especially if you live your life this way.

Want a piece of Maynard? Sold out.

Want the real story? Well, Maynard forgot his pen.

This is absolutely brilliant.

[decoydroid]

A lot of spiritual experience can not be put into words. The problem is as inherant in our language as it is in our subjectivity. The "forgot the pen" could relate to the inability for us to communicate what we feel/believe through the medium of language.

You just have to experience it for yourself.

[Omnimalice]

A naked lady walks into a bar with a poodle under one arm...

[vinegar_tom]

"wallah" was great.

But seriously, this is a good discussion.

[vjtrip]

"wallah" was great.

But seriously, this is a good discussion.

Maybe it will continue... its a start and by no means will we all be able to conclude the 'final' meaning of this song or any of their songs. True meaning is beyond what can be written down.

[praefector]

i dont want to drag down the conversation.

but it should be said that "forgot my pen" most likely symbolizes a lack of ability or willingness to understand the solution to a given problem.

in essense saying that the answer (the message) is no good without the ability to comprehend and explain it to others in a constructive manner (the pen)

... continue

[dmoney]

I really think he just didn't have a pen to right down what he just experienced............ just a thought

[Shaz]

Now i'm not a religious person, but i pray everyone can understand this topic.

Cuz I support it.

You look at the moments in life, and most are drawn to the good/bad things.
The experiances make you what you are now.

No doubts about that.

You could always change what you are now, but overthink everything and it will give you false impressions of what things might have come out of the experiance.

One day I'd want everyone to not use one drug, not spend one dollar, not say something hateful towards another person, not hurt, not be forcefull, greedy, selfish... etc. But then again, noone wants to be a jellyfish, that just floats around not doing shvit right? Imagine all the jellyfish...

Sadly, i am a jellyfish.

peace

[vjtrip]

i dont want to drag down the conversation.

but it should be said that "forgot my pen" most likely symbolizes a lack of ability or willingness to understand the solution to a given problem.

in essense saying that the answer (the message) is no good without the ability to comprehend and explain it to others in a constructive manner (the pen)

... continue

your exactly wrong. this is my point.

If you can write it down, the experience can be deemed as 'explainable'.

An unexplainable experience, and maybe one that the listener couldnt comprehend even if you could put it into words, is justified simply as 'I forgot my pen'.

You can read 'vicariously' about the death of someone in the newspaper. You read that someone attacked someone, they retaliated and someone died.

Where is the article about the thoughts, the experience, the mayhem going through their minds as this took place?

The more I begin to understand this the more I realize that I am not going to be able to put into words anything that will make any of you see what I am saying.

and this becomes the point exactly.

[Subster]

i dont want to drag down the conversation.

but it should be said that "forgot my pen" most likely symbolizes a lack of ability or willingness to understand the solution to a given problem.

in essense saying that the answer (the message) is no good without the ability to comprehend and explain it to others in a constructive manner (the pen)

... continue

I'm not pointing any fingers, and nor am I attempting to change the subject matter of the discussion, but for the purpose of explaining my thought I will need to entitle you rosetta stoned...

This is a familiar cycle of thought that I have observed in another thread on this board. I have even written an analogy that follows this frame of interpritation, and in the end I called myself rosetta stoned for the foolery of manipulation and personal value.

Maynard exercises a literary device called a lethal text, which in essence is a paradox.

Agian I must spiral out and say that I am Roseta Stoned, for I was not present during the moment of conception.

After further reflection I feel that there is a world outside mere words on this track..... in this world the message of the "music" expandes beyond the realm of the english language.

Spiral out

[Subster]

your exactly wrong. this is my point.

If you can write it down, the experience can be deemed as 'explainable'.

An unexplainable experience, and maybe one that the listener couldnt comprehend even if you could put it into words, is justified simply as 'I forgot my pen'.

You can read 'vicariously' about the death of someone in the newspaper. You read that someone attacked someone, they retaliated and someone died.

Where is the article about the thoughts, the experience, the mayhem going through their minds as this took place?

The more I begin to understand this the more I realize that I am not going to be able to put into words anything that will make any of you see what I am saying.

and this becomes the point exactly.

Wow did we have the same thought at the same time on diffents levels of conciousness... sweet!!

[praefector]

your exactly wrong. this is my point.

If you can write it down, the experience can be deemed as 'explainable'.

An unexplainable experience, and maybe one that the listener couldnt comprehend even if you could put it into words, is justified simply as 'I forgot my pen'.

You can read 'vicariously' about the death of someone in the newspaper. You read that someone attacked someone, they retaliated and someone died.

Where is the article about the thoughts, the experience, the mayhem going through their minds as this took place?

The more I begin to understand this the more I realize that I am not going to be able to put into words anything that will make any of you see what I am saying.

and this becomes the point exactly.

ive read this post about 5 times and i still dont see anything that contradicts my statement

just conjecture along a different tangent

what i was saying was that ... the narrator experiences a revelation. inherent within this revelation is a message... but a pen is needed to transmit the message (the pen in this case = understanding) without the pen (understanding) the message is lost and useless.

maybe another rebuttle from you will clear the air a bit because i still feel like we're on two seperate tangents of thought here

[vjtrip]

ive read this post about 5 times and i still dont see anything that contradicts my statement

just conjecture along a different tangent

what i was saying was that ... the narrator experiences a revelation. inherent within this revelation is a message... but a pen is needed to transmit the message (the pen in this case = understanding) without the pen (understanding) the message is lost and useless.

maybe another rebuttle from you will clear the air a bit because i still feel like we're on two seperate tangents of thought here

...maybe you need to quit reading.... ;)

[praefector]

i reread the original post again, because im driven to understand where the hell youre coming from on this

i think ive got it now

but it kind of thrust me into asking another question... how do we know when weve found the answer? ive seen a lot of intelligent debate here related to this song but ive also seen some alarmingly closed minded approaches... especially regarding the subjectivity of symbolism (too much "im right and youre wrong" and not enough "wow, i didnt see it that way, but rather this way")

so i guess the real question i have: is the person willing to dig the deepest always going to be the one who is "right" ?

[Subster]

I did read an artilce from Adam Jones in guitar world that said this album was about

"putting people in thier place"

[vjtrip]

i reread the original post again, because im driven to understand where the hell youre coming from on this

i think ive got it now

but it kind of thrust me into asking another question... how do we know when weve found the answer? ive seen a lot of intelligent debate here related to this song but ive also seen some alarmingly closed minded approaches... especially regarding the subjectivity of symbolism (too much "im right and youre wrong" and not enough "wow, i didnt see it that way, but rather this way")

so i guess the real question i have: is the person willing to dig the deepest always going to be the one who is "right" ?

there is no 'answer'...

there is no spoon....

the question is...

what do you feel?

can you explain it to me?

If not, then your probably on the right track.



that's really the best way to explain it. sorry if you feel short-changed.

[praefector]

that's really the best way to explain it. sorry if you feel short-changed.


exchange in ideas is always reciprocal to me. so no worries ; )

[Subster]

Check out this link about lethal text

http://deoxy.org/alephnull/lethal.htm

[praefector]

Check out this link about lethal text

http://deoxy.org/alephnull/lethal.htm

that was a really informative read, thanks

im not so sure where this song makes use of it though (if that's what youre suggesting)

[Stev]

Here's my problem with your theory.

The word 'forgot'. It indicates that a pen exists somewhere.

You seem to be saying in your theory that no pen exists to transscribe the experiences of the mind. I agree with what you're saying, and I think it's a great theory and certainly very interesting and great to discuss, but in the context of the song I don't think it works.

If the line had been 'But I can't find a pen', I think it would work - but 'I forgot my pen' indicates that Maynard (or the writer) has a pen, has used it in the past and just doesn't have it in this instance.

Perhaps I'm being overly analytical, but that one word seems to break down your theory for me.

[Subster]

The thought process through out the lyrics leads you to beleave that thier is a point of realization, but comprehension lasts for only an instant, and the circle makes it's way around agian to point out that in essence we are all "Rosetta Stoned"

To put it honestly I can only feel the interperatation, the words to describe it do not exist.

I seriously believe that maynard my have attempted to create a lethal text.

[Subster]

Here's my problem with your theory.

The word 'forgot'. It indicates that a pen exists somewhere.

You seem to be saying in your theory that no pen exists to transscribe the experiences of the mind. I agree with what you're saying, and I think it's a great theory and certainly very interesting and great to discuss, but in the context of the song I don't think it works.

If the line had been 'But I can't find a pen', I think it would work - but 'I forgot my pen' indicates that Maynard (or the writer) has a pen, has used it in the past and just doesn't have it in this instance.

Perhaps I'm being overly analytical, but that one word seems to break down your theory for me.

I can see your point of view.

[Subster]

Good post to thread starter,

but,

The wine tastes good and has actually been sold. But it is a small vineyard so no lots of crates. Expect something this summer.

What style of wine is it? Dry or ???

[Subster]

!!! ??? I have never heard. Am I just uncultured?

[robsjca]

Been down this road before... yea, and we never did find the solution to the "Publius Enigma". You laugh because you think this is so different? It's no different than what is displayed on the two "relevant" front covers...

[Dogzilla]

Let me get this straight.

You couldn't get any of Maynard's wine. But Maynard sang about forgetting his pen, so there is no wine.

WTF? I'm not quite sure I kept up with your brilliant conclusion.

I have two bottles of the wine. I bought it back in February before he released a bunch to the general public. That first release was only 50 cases. I would imagine it sold out pretty quickly, which is why I bought two bottles. He has released a second template, which, evidently and according to you, is now sold out. No surprise there.

It's a red wine and I tasted some of the other wines sold at that particular cellar (not a "little wine store"). I have not yet cracked open the Primer Paso because I am saving it for a special occasion. (It was his first wine ever so I may never drink it.) Based on the other wines at Page Springs Cellars, I'd say it's probably not too dry -- there's a malvaise in there with the red grapes that soften the tartness a bit. I'm sure it's lovely.

[His_Royal_Dudeness]

Djee, this is absolutely a very interesting discussion in progress...

If only Immanuel Kant (not his moral philosophy, but the one who describes the borders of human knowledge) had the courage to summerize 1200 pages into one little sentence, nl. "I forgot my pen"...

Would have saved our history from a lot of nonsensical metaphysical debates...

[ArizonaBay]

that was a really informative read, thanks

im not so sure where this song makes use of it though (if that's what youre suggesting)

Because it mentions that the lethal text would have to be in a 'transcendental language' and therefore cannot be communicated in spoken or written language... "I forgot my pen"

I dont think this song actually references this, but its a good thought

http://deoxy.org/alephnull/jaynes.htm

Most interesting bit