viginti tres, 46 n 2, human chromosome... ?

[ktrip]

discussing the album with friends lead us to various conclusions...

the first, obvious one, was that the album is alot more straight forward, less esoteric than their other works.

also, the song rosetta stoned, seems to be kind of, mocking, in a way, that esoteric nature of their previous works [ the "overwhelmed is what you'd be..." verse brought our attention to it ]

now... to my actual point.... 46 and 2, gets its name from the 46 chromosomes we have, the plus two being the "high level consciousness" 'jesus' level.

those 46 chromosomes are arranged in 2 sets of 23, with 23 "rungs" connecting each pair.

we concluded [and this is our opinion, although you are welcome to share it] that viginti tres, was like, climbing those rungs of the human chromosome... 'ascending' if you will... only... its the end of the album, so maybe they are saying, there is no ascending? and this is it?

just some thoughts...

[reflection11]

it's kind of weird that the track right before viginti tres is right in two, in that 46 divided right in two is 23

[spiralout11235]

Interesting thoughts, I agree with both of you. The number 23 also has some occult significance.

[macfreak]

lo yeah

[tollll12]

discussing the album with friends lead us to various conclusions...

the first, obvious one, was that the album is alot more straight forward, less esoteric than their other works.

also, the song rosetta stoned, seems to be kind of, mocking, in a way, that esoteric nature of their previous works [ the "overwhelmed is what you'd be..." verse brought our attention to it ]

now... to my actual point.... 46 and 2, gets its name from the 46 chromosomes we have, the plus two being the "high level consciousness" 'jesus' level.

those 46 chromosomes are arranged in 2 sets of 23, with 23 "rungs" connecting each pair.

we concluded [and this is our opinion, although you are welcome to share it] that viginti tres, was like, climbing those rungs of the human chromosome... 'ascending' if you will... only... its the end of the album, so maybe they are saying, there is no ascending? and this is it?

just some thoughts...

Just for clarification, humans have 44 & 2 chromosomes (still adds up to 46). 46 & 2 would be the make up of an evolved species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomes), which fits the theme of 46 & 2 - patching up old wounds to become a better person.

What does Viginti Tres mean in this context? Well, 23 chromosomes is half, so where is the other half? Is there another half? I expect another half.... still!

[ktrip]

the way chromosomes are set up, is like two columns with connectors between, 23 of those connectors to be exact... looks kinda like a rope ladder....

also, in the album art, there is the cg dude with the pins in him... 23 pins....

[Kochipahk]

God, this is gonna be like Octavarium with the 5's & 8's all over again...

[reflection11]

screw my previous thought regarding this topic...

I now know it's because maynard was a big chicago bulls fan back in the day, just like I was.

[rd64pro]

discussing the album with friends lead us to various conclusions...


Very true, and it's interesting how wildly different everyone's interpretation is.

To me it seems that the album overall has a very Revelation-esque vibe to it - as in the last book of the old testament. Just for conversation's sake, consider this:

According to an online source (granted, inherently less reliable than a magic 8-ball) the book of Revelation has exactly 22 chapters. The end of the 22nd chapter reads (or so I found from the same online source):

"(18) I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19) and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book."

I sense mockery in the form of an added chapter to the book of Revelation. Or maybe we're being mocked for having a history of interpreting these things so differently.

Who knows? At the very least, it is interesting and thought-provoking which is as much as the band would hope for, I'm sure.

[The Dark Jester]

screw my previous thought regarding this topic...

I now know it's because maynard was a big chicago bulls fan back in the day, just like I was.

LMFAO!! I guess everyone does wants to be like Mike.

[win]

it's kind of weird that the track right before viginti tres is right in two, in that 46 divided right in two is 23

I think that is the' tagline' if you will. As many songs of tool there are prolouges intros outros epilouges and I think this is an epilouge to Right in Two. In right in two MJK laments man's short comings and our inability to cohabitate. As such we are not living to our full potential. The monkeys with 46 chromosomes are only worth 23. Its kind of a tragic and depressing end to the album, but such is the fate of man :)

[win]

Very true, and it's interesting how wildly different everyone's interpretation is.

To me it seems that the album overall has a very Revelation-esque vibe to it - as in the last book of the old testament. Just for conversation's sake, consider this:

According to an online source (granted, inherently less reliable than a magic 8-ball) the book of Revelation has exactly 22 chapters. The end of the 22nd chapter reads (or so I found from the same online source):

"(18) I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, (19) and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book."

I sense mockery in the form of an added chapter to the book of Revelation. Or maybe we're being mocked for having a history of interpreting these things so differently.

Who knows? At the very least, it is interesting and thought-provoking which is as much as the band would hope for, I'm sure.


this is an intersting take. I dunno if I buy it, but I would love to hear some opinions

[FrozzenSoul]

I had 23 beers today, does that mean anything?

come on guys, give it up

If maynard saw this, i bet he would get a kick out of it :)

[vagrantandused]

if maynard saw this, i bet he would laugh his ass off.

[toolmaul]

23 also has Chicago sports significance, both Jordan and Ryne Sandberg wore 23 and both retired and came back from retirement.
I'm just kidding I'm sure there is no relation to Jordan and Ryno in viginti tres, but if ya wanna read my opinion read the viginti tres track 23 thread

[apathetic goat]

Hate to tell you guys but to go from 44 & 2 to 46 & 2 would be a step BACKWARDS in evolution. Nature evolves by streamlining and simplifying things, not by complicating things with extra 'code'. The next step, if one was ever to occur, would be to go from 44 & 2 to 42 & 2.

[silerwen]

Hate to tell you guys but to go from 44 & 2 to 46 & 2 would be a step BACKWARDS in evolution. Nature evolves by streamlining and simplifying things, not by complicating things with extra 'code'. The next step, if one was ever to occur, would be to go from 44 & 2 to 42 & 2.


not entirely true.... if nature was trying to streamline everything, i don't think we'd have elephants, or even mamals. why not just stick with a single celled organism. well there are many levels of conscience to experience.

[xPOGOx]

Hate to tell you guys but to go from 44 & 2 to 46 & 2 would be a step BACKWARDS in evolution. Nature evolves by streamlining and simplifying things, not by complicating things with extra 'code'. The next step, if one was ever to occur, would be to go from 44 & 2 to 42 & 2.
Wrong (http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/15sim03.htm).

[steve99_9]

and in case you guys didn't hear the Salival webcast, its made clear that the song name 'Forty Six & 2' means the 46 chromosomes a body has and a X or a Y. not 2 chromosomes added on

[xPOGOx]

and in case you guys didn't hear the Salival webcast, its made clear that the song name 'Forty Six & 2' means the 46 chromosomes a body has and a X or a Y. not 2 chromosomes added on
I don't know what webcast you're talking about, however...

The X/Y chromosome you're talking about which determines gender is included in the human chromosome count of 46. So even if the "& 2" part of the title refers to the XX/XY pair that determines gender, it's still not human DNA, because that would mean there are 48 total chromosomes.

[Loveboat Captain]

discussing the album with friends lead us to various conclusions...

the first, obvious one, was that the album is alot more straight forward, less esoteric than their other works.

also, the song rosetta stoned, seems to be kind of, mocking, in a way, that esoteric nature of their previous works [ the "overwhelmed is what you'd be..." verse brought our attention to it ]

now... to my actual point.... 46 and 2, gets its name from the 46 chromosomes we have, the plus two being the "high level consciousness" 'jesus' level.

those 46 chromosomes are arranged in 2 sets of 23, with 23 "rungs" connecting each pair.

we concluded [and this is our opinion, although you are welcome to share it] that viginti tres, was like, climbing those rungs of the human chromosome... 'ascending' if you will... only... its the end of the album, so maybe they are saying, there is no ascending? and this is it?

just some thoughts...

...or the next release will cover whats at the end of the chromosome ladder.

[eslupminoyler]

discussing the album with friends lead us to various conclusions...

the first, obvious one, was that the album is alot more straight forward, less esoteric than their other works.

also, the song rosetta stoned, seems to be kind of, mocking, in a way, that esoteric nature of their previous works [ the "overwhelmed is what you'd be..." verse brought our attention to it ]

now... to my actual point.... 46 and 2, gets its name from the 46 chromosomes we have, the plus two being the "high level consciousness" 'jesus' level.

those 46 chromosomes are arranged in 2 sets of 23, with 23 "rungs" connecting each pair.

we concluded [and this is our opinion, although you are welcome to share it] that viginti tres, was like, climbing those rungs of the human chromosome... 'ascending' if you will... only... its the end of the album, so maybe they are saying, there is no ascending? and this is it?

just some thoughts...

Awesome thought"

[eslupminoyler]

Awesome thought"

The DOOM story line might also be involved here.

When a good natured being was administered the transformative toxin, he/she would adapt angellic/benevolent alien qualities.

When a bad natured being was administered the transformative toxin, he/she would adapt demonic/malevoelnt alien qualities.

I think that the band had willfully decided to choose benevolence. So the basis of 46&2 remains the same, but it has a differing essence now.

Jesus being the pinnacle or ideal human with transcended physical and spiritual qualities. Perhaps all humans have the capability of 48 chromosomes, but this is only unlocked in a purely righteous individual.
thoughts?

[steve99_9]

I don't know what webcast you're talking about, however...

The X/Y chromosome you're talking about which determines gender is included in the human chromosome count of 46. So even if the "& 2" part of the title refers to the XX/XY pair that determines gender, it's still not human DNA, because that would mean there are 48 total chromosomes.
from the Salival Webcast, Blair reads off questions from a computer screen to the band who has had a few beers in them, so they're all being dicks. actually very funny...anywho

Blair: Pretty authoritive source that the idea of a human with 48 chromosomes would be a horrible mutation, what are your thoughts? and what exactly is Forty Six & 2 getting at?

Maynard: ..uh...well its actually 46 chromosomes and a X or a Y, thats what the 2 is about, not necessarily 48 chromosomes, it's 46 and a X or a Y.

Blair: Which would be 47.

all i wanted to add, just thought everyone should know.

[bogsnarth]

46+2 is actually a reference to a book.. my friend was telling me about it.. i can't remember if it was one of Bob Frissell's books, or one of Drunvalo Melchizidek's.. (Frissell talks about Drunvalo a lot, hence the confusion).. but basically it's like people have suspected, a reference to the future evolution of our species.. but i don't think it's meant to be taken quite that literally.. edit: or maybe it is. i don't know.

this wiki page tells a bit about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Six_%26_2

[xPOGOx]

46+2 is actually a reference to a book.. my friend was telling me about it.. i can't remember if it was one of Bob Frissell's books, or one of Drunvalo Melchizidek's.. (Frissell talks about Drunvalo a lot, hence the confusion).. but basically it's like people have suspected, a reference to the future evolution of our species.. but i don't think it's meant to be taken quite that literally.. edit: or maybe it is. i don't know.

this wiki page tells a bit about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Six_%26_2
Mm...leaving that Wiki page open and reading later. Sleeping now.

[sumsh]

also, in the album art, there is the cg dude with the pins in him... 23 pins....
There are 24 pins in the CG guy. Look again.

[Uvault05]

Wrong (http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/15sim03.htm).

Actually, I'm quite certain that you're wrong. Is this a link to Jerry Falwell's biology 101 course taught at Liberty College? Most of the data and support in this article date back to the 80's or even earlier (a quote from 1968??). And this quote is sheer nonsense: "But the creatures thought to be more closely related have been found, in fact, to be totally different in a number of ways, when exacting twentieth-century molecular comparisons have been made." Molecular analysis incontrovertibly shows that our closes relatives are chimpanzees, whose DNA matches 99.8% of ours.

If you'd like a more scientific article which explains how new species may develop from chromosome discrepancies, try the following: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may2001/989331026.Ev.r.html

Not sure if you're going to be able to follow this, because something tells me that you haven't exactly taken any 400-level genetics courses....

[davelisowski]

When a human cell splits, it breaks apart DNA into two chains. Additionally, sex cells (gametes) only have half of the required DNA and chromosomes (23) required to create a being. You get 23 chromosomes from your mother, and 23 from your father.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gametes

Where would we be without wikipedia?