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smeefsmeef
04-30-2006, 07:59 PM
Is it Devo, Jesus, Satan, Maynard himself, that Jambi sultan guy, or even me?

Alcawhorlick
04-30-2006, 08:10 PM
benevolent sun maybe.

psims23
04-30-2006, 08:11 PM
benevolent sun maybe.


I was thinkin the exact same thing, makes more sense given the "shine on" context

Stev
04-30-2006, 08:24 PM
I'm pretty sure it's Devo. There's been much speculation that this song is written about him anyway.

'Shine on benevolent sun' seems a bit 'on the nose' if you ask me. The sun shines. That's what it does. If this is benevolent 'sun' then there's no imagery, no poetry there - no nothing.

I say Devo.

T-13h
04-30-2006, 08:29 PM
I agree that "Jambi" concerns Maynard's son.

JohnBeckius
04-30-2006, 08:58 PM
GW JR.

T-13h
04-30-2006, 09:02 PM
GW JR.

Washington had a son? Hmmm...

bogsnarth
04-30-2006, 09:45 PM
'Shine on benevolent sun' seems a bit 'on the nose' if you ask me. The sun shines. That's what it does. If this is benevolent 'sun' then there's no imagery, no poetry there - no nothing.

i disagree.. the idea of the sun as a benevolent deity is in keeping with the sort of mystical/occult spiritualism seen in tool's music over the years and especially in lateralus and 10000 days.. some anthropologists believe that sun worship was one of if not the first form of religion.

bogsnarth
04-30-2006, 09:46 PM
having said that, i do think the double-meaning is intentional, also in keeping with maynard's habit of writing more than one meaning into his lyrics. :)

Stev
04-30-2006, 09:53 PM
Yeah, I think you're right. I actually think if Maynard was writing this down in preparation for recording it would probably be written son/sun - because I think it's meant to mean both.

I can't argue with Tool's recurrent theme of mysticism etc - but I do think that theme fits much more with Lateralus than with 10,000 Days. Not saying it's not there, but it was the main theme in Lateralus (imo) - seems less prevalent on this album.

I do think the line is meant to have both meanings in this song though, with the 'son' meaning referring to Devo.

paraflux
05-08-2006, 12:02 PM
Not George Washington you dumbass, G-Dub JR. You fucking twit.

And also it's: A message of hope for those who choose to hear it and warning for those who DO NOT.

IDIOT!
probation...

eslupminoyler
05-08-2006, 12:12 PM
Is it Devo, Jesus, Satan, Maynard himself, that Jambi sultan guy, or even me?

It is the Son of God from a Judaic/Caballistic perspective.
Meaning the Son of God hasn't come yet in their opinion.

Strangely though, Islam believes the Christian Jesus is returning (even though Mohammad was greater supposedly).

Jews, Christians, and Hindus basically have the same expectation. I find it interesting that all three will be proved valid and true with just the sating of one.

However in Wings part II, Maynard says "Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father." I find that to be very belittling.

StereoScopicLenses
05-08-2006, 12:23 PM
However in Wings part II, Maynard says "Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father." I find that to be very belittling.

THis forum is for JAMBI go somewhere else to talk about belittling the Father.. If you don't want the "father" to be belittled maybe you should spell it Father, in the first place. He's just fetching the Holy Trinity to give his mom her wings.. I think she friggin' deserves them.

Noob_Jones
05-08-2006, 12:34 PM
I think the lyric son is about Maynard


Shine on forever
Shine on benevolent sun
Shine on, upon the broken
Shine until the two become one


The line in bold makes more sense with Maynard being the son.

eslupminoyler
05-08-2006, 12:40 PM
THis forum is for JAMBI go somewhere else to talk about belittling the Father.. If you don't want the "father" to be belittled maybe you should spell it Father, in the first place. He's just fetching the Holy Trinity to give his mom her wings.. I think she friggin' deserves them.

I'm trying to be objective as possible; as in, i'm not trying to show my Christian beliefs. It was also relevant to the post. I was suggesting that considering he belittled (The Father) on WIngs, I doubt he would truly mean "The Son" on Jambi.

p.s.
i don't want the father to be belittled. i sort of bothers me when I hear that part on Wings, so don't jump to irrational conclusions next time.

blair's man sausage
05-08-2006, 12:46 PM
^^that was fast^^

eslupminoyler
05-08-2006, 12:46 PM
THis forum is for JAMBI go somewhere else to talk about belittling the Father.. If you don't want the "father" to be belittled maybe you should spell it Father, in the first place. He's just fetching the Holy Trinity to give his mom her wings.. I think she friggin' deserves them.

You can't fetch, "The Holy Trinity," because they bring us to them.

A human's gravitational field is infintessimal.

I doubt anyone would worship a weak being like that.

Loveboat Captain
05-08-2006, 01:10 PM
You can't fetch, "The Holy Trinity," because they bring us to them.

A human's gravitational field is infintessimal.

I doubt anyone would worship a weak being like that.

It's imagery. It's saying she's boldly going up to heaven and demaning her wings. I doubt its lieteral.

Xariable
05-08-2006, 02:24 PM
I think it might be some more Qabalistic references. maybe. I'm not an expert. But it could be Ain Sauf Aur (sp?)
just a thought.

Un coup de dés
05-08-2006, 03:20 PM
The line is interesting because the song is pretty plainly about his son, Devo. In that line, "shine on benevolent son" he's talking about Devo, but the word "son" sounds exactly the same as "sun" so the imagery is of the sun shining, even though that's not what he actually means. It's the kind of linguistic trick that's exclusive to english, (in french for example, sun = soleil, and son = fils) and it makes the lyrics a good deal more interesting.


side note, how is it belittling that the father is listed last, I assume that the order of the listing is what bothers you. There are three of them, they are all equal, they have to be listed in some order. The church usually lists them as "Father son and holy ghost (aka spirit), the exact oposite of the way that Maynard lists them, but I really doubt that Maynard is part of the church of that he feels the need to list them in their typical order. The order that the words are in is a lot less natural to say that "Father, son, spirit" try it. The way maynard sings it is more awquard, catching your attention, and making you pay attention to what he is saying, considering the location of this line withing the song (right before the "it's time now, my time now" part), which is a climax to a more energetic section, this line sticks out and grabs your attention making sure that you are listening for the climax.

It's subtle but i find it to be quite effective. Maynards phrasing isn't so awquard that it makes you stumble when you say it, but it dosen't roll off the tongue the same way that the typical listing does. i love it

tool25
05-08-2006, 03:22 PM
its definately "double-ya"

transcend187
05-08-2006, 07:13 PM
side note, how is it belittling that the father is listed last, I assume that the order of the listing is what bothers you.
Its not the order he takes offense to, its that the Father is being "fetched"

You can't fetch, "The Holy Trinity," because they bring us to them.

A human's gravitational field is infintessimal.

I doubt anyone would worship a weak being like that.

Again, taking the lyrics far too literally. In that passage, Maynard is frustrated. He is frustrated that his mother has suffered for so long, and he's expressing that he thinks she deserves the greatest treatment. It's hyperbole.

Also, Maynard isn't exactly known for his dogmatic Christian beliefs. This is a song for his mother, and thus he is using her beliefs in the song. She herself was a very devout Christian.

zacharyv
05-09-2006, 01:09 AM
I'm pretty sure it's Devo. There's been much speculation that this song is written about him anyway.

'Shine on benevolent sun' seems a bit 'on the nose' if you ask me. The sun shines. That's what it does. If this is benevolent 'sun' then there's no imagery, no poetry there - no nothing.

I say Devo.


100% emphatic agreement.
Wishing it all away if I thought it would keep you here? or whatever the hell he says. I think it's pretty clear that he'd give it all up for Devo.
And for his son, too.

ba-dum CRASH!
I'm the height of just too muchery.

A-Bomb
05-09-2006, 08:41 AM
It's quite obvious to anyone with half a brain cell, this song is about lesbian jelly.

wags
05-09-2006, 09:55 AM
It's quite obvious to anyone with half a brain cell, this song is about lesbian jelly.

ha!

eslupminoyler
05-09-2006, 01:27 PM
The line is interesting because the song is pretty plainly about his son, Devo. In that line, "shine on benevolent son" he's talking about Devo, but the word "son" sounds exactly the same as "sun" so the imagery is of the sun shining, even though that's not what he actually means. It's the kind of linguistic trick that's exclusive to english, (in french for example, sun = soleil, and son = fils) and it makes the lyrics a good deal more interesting.


side note, how is it belittling that the father is listed last, I assume that the order of the listing is what bothers you. There are three of them, they are all equal, they have to be listed in some order. The church usually lists them as "Father son and holy ghost (aka spirit), the exact oposite of the way that Maynard lists them, but I really doubt that Maynard is part of the church of that he feels the need to list them in their typical order. The order that the words are in is a lot less natural to say that "Father, son, spirit" try it. The way maynard sings it is more awquard, catching your attention, and making you pay attention to what he is saying, considering the location of this line withing the song (right before the "it's time now, my time now" part), which is a climax to a more energetic section, this line sticks out and grabs your attention making sure that you are listening for the climax.

It's subtle but i find it to be quite effective. Maynards phrasing isn't so awquard that it makes you stumble when you say it, but it dosen't roll off the tongue the same way that the typical listing does. i love it

It is belittling because he is putting his mother on the same level as the trinity. Like she has the ability to influence the Trinity. His mother wouldn't want to be a focus of blasphemy. I'm not saying it is blasphemy, but she'd probably interpret it as such if he told her that.
Human beings can talk to the Whole Heavenly host, so perhaps he already spoke with her, and I'm just wrong in my interpretation.

eslupminoyler
05-09-2006, 01:31 PM
The line is interesting because the song is pretty plainly about his son, Devo. In that line, "shine on benevolent son" he's talking about Devo, but the word "son" sounds exactly the same as "sun" so the imagery is of the sun shining, even though that's not what he actually means. It's the kind of linguistic trick that's exclusive to english, (in french for example, sun = soleil, and son = fils) and it makes the lyrics a good deal more interesting.


side note, how is it belittling that the father is listed last, I assume that the order of the listing is what bothers you. There are three of them, they are all equal, they have to be listed in some order. The church usually lists them as "Father son and holy ghost (aka spirit), the exact oposite of the way that Maynard lists them, but I really doubt that Maynard is part of the church of that he feels the need to list them in their typical order. The order that the words are in is a lot less natural to say that "Father, son, spirit" try it. The way maynard sings it is more awquard, catching your attention, and making you pay attention to what he is saying, considering the location of this line withing the song (right before the "it's time now, my time now" part), which is a climax to a more energetic section, this line sticks out and grabs your attention making sure that you are listening for the climax.

It's subtle but i find it to be quite effective. Maynards phrasing isn't so awquard that it makes you stumble when you say it, but it dosen't roll off the tongue the same way that the typical listing does. i love it

It's definitely not the order. Just imagine what would happen if some peon or serf went to a kings castle entrance and yelled, "Fetch me the King" really loud. He'd be killed or imprisoned. HOw much Greater is Our Heavenly Father that an Earthly king
Far greater. I think it Maynard isn't showing respect, adherance, or concession to his creator. He is on the path to being a Child of God, but not there yet.

eslupminoyler
05-09-2006, 01:43 PM
The Son of God that is coming is the "Benevolent Son".

"Dim my eyes if they should compromise our fulcrum"

If my eyes cause me to sin, which in turns severs the connection You(Holy SPirit) have with me, which guides, protects, allows me to grow in love and thought, then make me blind.

I think this album is trying to show us finally what is important.
Perhaps Undertow and Aenema brought some of us away from God and the Light, and Lateralus was the transition stage. 10000 days is an attempt to reconnect with The Creator.

eslupminoyler
05-09-2006, 01:47 PM
Its not the order he takes offense to, its that the Father is being "fetched"



Again, taking the lyrics far too literally. In that passage, Maynard is frustrated. He is frustrated that his mother has suffered for so long, and he's expressing that he thinks she deserves the greatest treatment. It's hyperbole.

Also, Maynard isn't exactly known for his dogmatic Christian beliefs. This is a song for his mother, and thus he is using her beliefs in the song. She herself was a very devout Christian.

The Holy Trinity is not a Christian belief. Judaism, islam, and Christianity believe there is a Father, Son, and Holy SPirit.

The lyrics on this album are literal, but people choose to see metaphors, because they are far from Truth.

So...
In Eulogy he says, "We need the space to nail of the next fool Martyr" it was serious, just as shine on benevolent son was serious (Jesus), or possibly the Judaic son whom hasn't returned yet.

foma
05-09-2006, 02:46 PM
The Holy Trinity is not a Christian belief. Judaism, islam, and Christianity believe there is a Father, Son, and Holy SPirit.

i'm really not sure of it. are you certain?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I think god is much more humble that that though.
the whole story of god being king is a church's layer, like many other stuff.

btw i don't believe in it myself, just talking about christianity, genuine

just realized i didn't say anything constructive to the discussion
saying fetch me the father (for me) means finally giving her what is/should be hers

having another listen this line got my attention
What have I done to be a son to an angel
What have I done to be worthy?
it's 'stange' saying he's wothy after all the jimmy's pain and judith aggressivness
like thanking, no mather what.
i quite can't explain how, but i connect to it in some strange way :S

eslupminoyler
05-09-2006, 04:07 PM
i'm really not sure of it. are you certain?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I think god is much more humble that that though.
the whole story of god being king is a church's layer, like many other stuff.

btw i don't believe in it myself, just talking about christianity, genuine

just realized i didn't say anything constructive to the discussion
saying fetch me the father (for me) means finally giving her what is/should be hers

having another listen this line got my attention
What have I done to be a son to an angel
What have I done to be worthy?
it's 'stange' saying he's wothy after all the jimmy's pain and judith aggressivness
like thanking, no mather what.
i quite can't explain how, but i connect to it in some strange way :S


The Jews for sure. They think Jesus was a prophet, and that he didn't rise from the dead.
Allah is just the Islamic word for God. I think Christian Muslims say it "Alle".

Hooker with a Third Eye
05-09-2006, 04:19 PM
i thought this was a song about maynard, he talks about how he would trade away his rockstar life if he knew that his mother would be taken away.

question93
05-09-2006, 05:28 PM
I suggest doing some research on the history of Jambi -- pre-Dutch colonization, Srivijaya, Vajrayana Buddhism, tantra, Sun in the astrological context, and the Sun in the mystical context like that of the Elusians and their Mysteries.

I think this is one of those songs with many layers of meaning that ultimately tie into each other.

foma
05-09-2006, 11:10 PM
The Jews for sure. They think Jesus was a prophet, and that he didn't rise from the dead.
Allah is just the Islamic word for God. I think Christian Muslims say it "Alle".
Yes bat for the Jews jesus is a prophet not The Son.
there's anther word for god in Hindu. doesn't mean they have a trinity...
but like i said i can't remember well

implandnoises
05-09-2006, 11:54 PM
The Jews for sure. They think Jesus was a prophet, and that he didn't rise from the dead.
Allah is just the Islamic word for God. I think Christian Muslims say it "Alle".

Christian Muslims? Hahaha

OK, um, yeah, alright I won't be mean, I know you meant Christians from the middle east.

tomatoms
05-10-2006, 12:55 AM
Belial?

discardbelief
05-10-2006, 05:09 AM
The Jews for sure. They think Jesus was a prophet, and that he didn't rise from the dead.
Allah is just the Islamic word for God. I think Christian Muslims say it "Alle".

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA "Christian Muslims" Your lack of theological knowledge astounds me. Your credibilty on this topic is thus severely dimnished...

Xariable
05-10-2006, 08:51 AM
The Jews for sure. They think Jesus was a prophet, and that he didn't rise from the dead.
Allah is just the Islamic word for God. I think Christian Muslims say it "Alle".

Why do so many people unwittingly link Islam and the Middle East together? Most of the world's Muslims don't even live in the Middle East!

On another note: A Xian Muslim would be a very confused person. ("Jesus is the only begotten son of . . wait a minute . . . far be it from Allah to have a child . . .wait . . oh fuck it . .") :o)

xPOGOx
05-10-2006, 09:43 AM
Christian Muslims
...

xPOGOx
05-10-2006, 09:48 AM
As far as the "Fetch me the ...." line goes (which isn't in this song, but it looks like that's what this thread is about)...

I don't find that it's belittling to the Christian God.

If a peasant runs up to a castle gate and yells "Fetch me the king!" he is not suggesting he is at the same level as the king. If he were suggesting he were at the same level as the king, he'd be yelling at the knights for getting in the way when he is trying to go speak with the king.

Rather, to me, the line seems to be that MJK feels that his mom is angelic (maybe at the same level as the angels), and deserves to speak directly to her God about her situation, without going through all the paperwork, per se.

eslupminoyler
05-10-2006, 11:38 AM
Why do so many people unwittingly link Islam and the Middle East together? Most of the world's Muslims don't even live in the Middle East!

On another note: A Xian Muslim would be a very confused person. ("Jesus is the only begotten son of . . wait a minute . . . far be it from Allah to have a child . . .wait . . oh fuck it . .") :o)

I apologize for the mistake fellow brethren.
I had meant only to expound upon the fact that Allah is the same God as the CHristian God, by showing that with Arab languages Christianity and Islam have "Allah"

xPOGOx
05-10-2006, 11:39 AM
I apologize for the mistake fellow brethren.
I had meant only to expound upon the fact that Allah is the same God as the CHristian God, by showing that with Arab languages Christianity and Islam have "Allah"
Which explains why English-speaking Christians refer to God as God and why English-speaking Muslims refer to Allah as Allah, right?

Xariable
05-10-2006, 01:36 PM
I apologize for the mistake fellow brethren.
I had meant only to expound upon the fact that Allah is the same God as the CHristian God, by showing that with Arab languages Christianity and Islam have "Allah"

I completely understood. I thought it was a good momet, however, to state my general frustration with that topic.
You are very right, Allah is just a generic word for God. Unlike a specific word for God (YHWH).
Peace

bogsnarth
05-10-2006, 11:00 PM
Which explains why English-speaking Christians refer to God as God and why English-speaking Muslims refer to Allah as Allah, right?
they all worship the god of abraham.

YHVH (which is where the english Yahweh and Jehovah come from) is the holy unspeakable name of god in judaism.. when he addresses moishe (moses) he tells him his name is "I AM".. my point is, the same god has many names.

xPOGOx
05-10-2006, 11:16 PM
they all worship the god of abraham.

YHVH (which is where the english Yahweh and Jehovah come from) is the holy unspeakable name of god in judaism.. when he addresses moishe (moses) he tells him his name is "I AM".. my point is, the same god has many names.
I understand that God that Christians and Muslims worship are the same...
I also realize that Allah is just another word for God, sort of...

But have you ever heard of any Christian refer to their God as "Allah" while they're speaking in English?
And don't Muslims tend to refer to their God as "Allah," even when speaking in English?

bogsnarth
05-11-2006, 01:35 AM
you have a point..

but french-speaking people say dieu and spanish-speaking people say dios.. and even those who have moved to america and now speak english as their primary language are prone to saying "mon dieu" or "dios mio".. it's still all the same god, just a matter of different languages.

as another example, english-speaking atheists still say "god" and atheists who speak arabic languages still say "allah," even though they don't worship that being at all. it's just a word for a concept, and the concept is only subtly different in each culture.

bogsnarth
05-11-2006, 01:36 AM
ps: i also find the term "christian muslims" hilarious, btw.

LunarSpitfyre
05-11-2006, 11:43 AM
i think the sultan of jambi theory is much more reasonable even though its not really spiritual.

crow365
05-14-2006, 10:42 AM
To move away from the morass of debating about the Abrahamic faiths...personally, I found the parts about the "benevolent [son/Sun]" to have allusions to the imagery of the Sun being the visible emanation of the Form of the Good in the physical realm from Plato's Republic. It *would* fit in with the parts about the Two uniting into One, and "shin[ing] down upon the Many".

Just my $0.02, though.

kidadavepushin
05-14-2006, 05:16 PM
Consider the pisces vesica.
http://www.charlesgilchrist.com/SGEO/SGIntro.html

consider the song 'jimmy'

Hold your light,
Eleven.
Lead me through each gentle step by step
by inch by loaded memory.

I'll move to heal
As soon as pain allows so we can
Reunite and both move on together.

Hold your light,
Eleven. Lead me through each gentle step by step
By inch by loaded memory

'till one and one are one, eleven,
So glow, child, glow.

I'm heading back home.

kidadavepushin
05-14-2006, 05:17 PM
From the one, shine out upon the many.

kidadavepushin
05-14-2006, 05:22 PM
Valis, The gnostic Christ, Tipareth, Buddah, Barbelith. We are One.

mike09
05-14-2006, 05:40 PM
I think the benevolent son is Maynard. The song, to me atleast, seems to be about his own two sides. He refers to feasting on flesh and finding the dark side, but also refers to the benevolent son as well. He is both, IMO, and he wants them to unite. He doesn't know who he really is. He wants the two sides to breathe in union because that's the only way that he can know who he really is. When they are divided, he doesn't know who to be, and he feels that when he is in that state, he withers away. This view could be WAY off, it just came to me.

Erowyn
05-15-2006, 07:12 PM
i thought this was a song about maynard, he talks about how he would trade away his rockstar life if he knew that his mother would be taken away.
but the problem with this line of thinking is that his mother was already taken away he cant give up something to get back what is already gone... he can give up what he has to KEEP what he has not lost... DEVO he would give up his world to keep his son if he thought that tomorrow would take him away... go back and remember that he has written other songs about Devo and look deeper... H. was about Devo's birth this album is not just about Judith it is about Maynard! and keeping everything and everyone he loves... i saw someone on here somewhere say it like this... this album is about how society is watching itself die and its killing him, he loves his son and its killing him, he loves his mother and its killing him... thats what this album is... dont make it all about his mother because there are 2 songs about her... this song is about DEVO

Inner_Eulogy
05-17-2006, 09:40 AM
It is belittling because he is putting his mother on the same level as the trinity. Like she has the ability to influence the Trinity. His mother wouldn't want to be a focus of blasphemy. I'm not saying it is blasphemy, but she'd probably interpret it as such if he told her that.
Human beings can talk to the Whole Heavenly host, so perhaps he already spoke with her, and I'm just wrong in my interpretation.


How do you figure? The line goes "fetch me the spirit, the son and the father...tell them their pillar of faith has ascended". How does that in ANY waymean he is putting his mother at the same level of the holy trinity? It's Maynard speaking to the heavens above saying "hey guys, this here is a pure soul and faithful to her beliefs in your christianity system, it is now her time to get to the heaven she rightfully deserves".

TheDog
05-19-2006, 11:38 AM
THis forum is for JAMBI go somewhere else to talk about belittling the Father.. If you don't want the "father" to be belittled maybe you should spell it Father, in the first place. He's just fetching the Holy Trinity to give his mom her wings.. I think she friggin' deserves them.

Ha ha ha! Great answer, I love it!

Thejoelsvolta
05-19-2006, 09:10 PM
didn't maynard already write a song about Devo?
Pet, on the highly disappointing 13th step?

something_Dark
05-19-2006, 09:12 PM
Some guy who works for walmart and his mother wont ever forgive him for not eating his pea's?

EdwardJamesKeenan
05-20-2006, 03:53 AM
didn't maynard already write a song about Devo?
Pet, on the highly disappointing 13th step?

Are you fucking stupid?
1. Thirteenthstep is an incredible album, from start to finish it takes you through all these differnent emotions, points of view, and images
2. The song pet is not about Devo its sung from the perspective of a drug talking to someone who has managed to get off of drugs and is still tempted by them, listen to the song again and see if taht amkes it any clearer for you (BTW the whole album is about drug addiction and eventual rehabilitation)

EdwardJamesKeenan
05-20-2006, 04:06 AM
I think that we're all over looking something. In the original aramaic texts of the bible the opening was "in the beginning there was the wortd and the word was jahova"
"Jahova" meaning light (sun) and love (benevolant). The benevolant sun is jahova who is not actaully god as we know god, but just a pure spirit uncompromised by organised religion.

desoleary
05-20-2006, 04:29 AM
I gave this a lot of thought and I have come to the conclusion that the song is probably about he's Fiancé or somebody very close to him and always by his side and son, with "up to my neck soon to drown" and "But you changed that all for me. Lifted me up, turned me round." for some reason I do not think he is talking about he's mother as he would only be repeating himself in Wings for Marie (Part I) & 10,000 days (wings pt. 2)

zaxius
05-20-2006, 11:24 AM
The line is interesting because the song is pretty plainly about his son, Devo. In that line, "shine on benevolent son" he's talking about Devo, but the word "son" sounds exactly the same as "sun" so the imagery is of the sun shining, even though that's not what he actually means. It's the kind of linguistic trick that's exclusive to english, (in french for example, sun = soleil, and son = fils) and it makes the lyrics a good deal more interesting.

that's not exclusive to english...maybe for those two words, but all languages have homonyms. spanish has se/sé, te/té, si/sí, aun/aún, etc...plays on words happen in all languages.

swampyfool
05-20-2006, 02:29 PM
You are very right, Allah is just a generic word for God. Unlike a specific word for God (YHWH).
Peace

Allah is not merely a generic term for god, it is an Arabic word that translates to "The One God" or "The True God." It is a name just as truly as YHWH is a name. The thing that just kills me is that this might be one of the most prolific arguments on this whole freaking board. You guys might as well be arguing over the pronunciation of tomato. Whether it's to-MAY-to or to-MAH-to, it was all started by the energy that visited Abraham and told him to father the nation of the chosen. When his wife, Sarah, found that she was unable to bear a son, she bade Abraham to father this nation with her serving woman, Fatima. Fatima gave him a son, named Ishmael, and this is the bloodline that gave the world Muhhamad, umpteen centuries later (according to Islamic mythology). Abraham did not stop being amorous with his wife, though, and she eventually gave him a son, named Isaac. It is from the bloodline of Isaac that the world was given David, slayer of Goliath and first King of Isreal, and eventually Jesus (according to Jewish and Christian mythologies, respectively). In my opinion, this whole, millenia-long war between Judeo-Christian and Islimic fundamentalists can be attributed to Abraham's decision to forsake Ishmael and Fatima. If he could have accepted both sons, there would have only been one nation of the chosen, and unity would have been preserved (but now I am only speculating). The point is this: When Muslims say Allah, they are not saying anything different than Jews and Christians that say YHWH- they are both refering to the SAME THING! Also interesting to note; the Q'uran refers to Muhhamad as "The Word of God," but refers to Jesus, depending on the translation, as either "The Light of God," or "The Love of God." The differences between the theories of all of these religions are smaller than most of us would believe.

I do not believe that Maynard's impassioned claims against organized religion are criticism for the sake of spite. Rather, they are criticisms of the dividing forces in a world where unity is the concept to which we all must strive. Only through unity can we begin to limit the evil that we, as humans, inflict upon one another. This is why I find it to be so deplorable that there is such an argument taking place on a Tool board (aside from the fact that people seem to be making sweeping generalizations about lifestyles with which they are completely unfamiliar). Tool has a message of unity, and watching the analysis of this message degenerate into an uneducated, finger-pointing, shouting match between sides who choose the talking points of such divisive forces to prove their points makes me feel kinda deflated.

By the way, I am a spiritual person who believes in a higher power. I believe that the organization of religion has been a negative influence, diluting any truths that were evident in the original messages. I was raised with out a particular faith, and my parents never tried to feed me a dogma about how religion sucks. My point in stating this is that I have no biases toward one way of thinking or another, and as far as religion is concerned, I feel that I have entered into adulthood without prejudices. My point is that I am religiously objective, and I think that all adherents to organized religion who do not allow for individual spirituality to supercede proscribed tenants are EQUALLY FUCKED in their outlooks.

Now, to answer the original post of this thread, I feel that the word son/sun is duplicitous. I think that there is no point in trying to argue between the two. This song tells many stories at once with a central theme of (surprise, surprise) the necessity for unity. Thus, Maynard could be imploring our solar system's star to shine down upon us (to light our way, for example) at the same time that he is imploring somebody's male progeny to guide us toward unity. Now who's male progeny? I believe that the term "son" is steeped in plurality (wow! Plurality within duplicity- I love these fucking guys!). I believe that he refers to himself (in the sense of his eleven-year-old self from Jimmy- "hold your light" and "glow, child, glow"); he refers to Devo; and yes, he even refers to the prophesised messiah (of ANY of these religions).

Setve
05-20-2006, 03:53 PM
What do you guys hting the two things the sun/son is uniting are?


@WFM(10KD) people
Stop taking the lyrics so literally. We know the words are symbolic, we know you cannot 'fetch' an omnipresent spirit or shake a fist that you no longer have at gates that don't exist.
Also, when a person dies and goes to heaven, they do not become an angel/recieve wings (according to Christian belief), but you guys (and maynard) maybe didn't know that.

wags
05-21-2006, 12:25 PM
Allah is not merely a generic term for god, it is an Arabic word that translates to "The One God" or "The True God." It is a name just as truly as YHWH is a name. The thing that just kills me is that this might be one of the most prolific arguments on this whole freaking board. You guys might as well be arguing over the pronunciation of tomato. Whether it's to-MAY-to or to-MAH-to, it was all started by the energy that visited Abraham and told him to father the nation of the chosen. When his wife, Sarah, found that she was unable to bear a son, she bade Abraham to father this nation with her serving woman, Fatima. Fatima gave him a son, named Ishmael, and this is the bloodline that gave the world Muhhamad, umpteen centuries later (according to Islamic mythology). Abraham did not stop being amorous with his wife, though, and she eventually gave him a son, named Isaac. It is from the bloodline of Isaac that the world was given David, slayer of Goliath and first King of Isreal, and eventually Jesus (according to Jewish and Christian mythologies, respectively). In my opinion, this whole, millenia-long war between Judeo-Christian and Islimic fundamentalists can be attributed to Abraham's decision to forsake Ishmael and Fatima. If he could have accepted both sons, there would have only been one nation of the chosen, and unity would have been preserved (but now I am only speculating). The point is this: When Muslims say Allah, they are not saying anything different than Jews and Christians that say YHWH- they are both refering to the SAME THING! Also interesting to note; the Q'uran refers to Muhhamad as "The Word of God," but refers to Jesus, depending on the translation, as either "The Light of God," or "The Love of God." The differences between the theories of all of these religions are smaller than most of us would believe.

I do not believe that Maynard's impassioned claims against organized religion are criticism for the sake of spite. Rather, they are criticisms of the dividing forces in a world where unity is the concept to which we all must strive. Only through unity can we begin to limit the evil that we, as humans, inflict upon one another. This is why I find it to be so deplorable that there is such an argument taking place on a Tool board (aside from the fact that people seem to be making sweeping generalizations about lifestyles with which they are completely unfamiliar). Tool has a message of unity, and watching the analysis of this message degenerate into an uneducated, finger-pointing, shouting match between sides who choose the talking points of such divisive forces to prove their points makes me feel kinda deflated.

By the way, I am a spiritual person who believes in a higher power. I believe that the organization of religion has been a negative influence, diluting any truths that were evident in the original messages. I was raised with out a particular faith, and my parents never tried to feed me a dogma about how religion sucks. My point in stating this is that I have no biases toward one way of thinking or another, and as far as religion is concerned, I feel that I have entered into adulthood without prejudices. My point is that I am religiously objective, and I think that all adherents to organized religion who do not allow for individual spirituality to supercede proscribed tenants are EQUALLY FUCKED in their outlooks.

Now, to answer the original post of this thread, I feel that the word son/sun is duplicitous. I think that there is no point in trying to argue between the two. This song tells many stories at once with a central theme of (surprise, surprise) the necessity for unity. Thus, Maynard could be imploring our solar system's star to shine down upon us (to light our way, for example) at the same time that he is imploring somebody's male progeny to guide us toward unity. Now who's male progeny? I believe that the term "son" is steeped in plurality (wow! Plurality within duplicity- I love these fucking guys!). I believe that he refers to himself (in the sense of his eleven-year-old self from Jimmy- "hold your light" and "glow, child, glow"); he refers to Devo; and yes, he even refers to the prophesised messiah (of ANY of these religions).


excellent fuckin post.

swampyfool
05-21-2006, 01:23 PM
excellent fuckin post.

Thanks, though my frustration showed a little more than I would have liked . . .

Melanos
05-22-2006, 01:24 PM
Stop talking about Jesus as if he was something special.... go read in the bible, even Jesus said to his followers "There is no Differance between myself and any of you, only i have realized the way" So there ya have it, we all have the potential to become Jesus-like, There is NO differance between anyone essentially when you boil it all down.
You can believe what you want or what your told..... someday you will have to make all the pieces fit to make yourself whole again. Anyway, good luck on your journey.

Melanos
05-22-2006, 01:31 PM
What do you guys hting the two things the sun/son is uniting are?


@WFM(10KD) people
Stop taking the lyrics so literally. We know the words are symbolic, we know you cannot 'fetch' an omnipresent spirit or shake a fist that you no longer have at gates that don't exist.
Also, when a person dies and goes to heaven, they do not become an angel/recieve wings (according to Christian belief), but you guys (and maynard) maybe didn't know that.


Why cant you fetch them? Maybe your trying to hard (Let go).
And why you say you cant shake your fists at the gates screaming? I have seen them and seen the light Maynard refers to time and time again.. (Again Let Go)
Drop your ego like a brick my friend and let go of all you know..... cause what you think you know really isnt helping yourself.

Koan
05-23-2006, 12:20 PM
i disagree.. the idea of the sun as a benevolent deity is in keeping with the sort of mystical/occult spiritualism seen in tool's music over the years and especially in lateralus and 10000 days.. some anthropologists believe that sun worship was one of if not the first form of religion.

Correct. Almost all heathen and tribal cultures, monotheism, believed in the earth as a female furtile deity, and the sun as her male counterpart. They recognised the sun as a physical and spiritual centre WAY before modern science, let alone monotheism (christianity, islam, judaism) accepted it as fact.

Monotheism is centuries or even millenia behind, and will never outshine the pure intention of nature based spirituality and philosophy, especially the more developed branches from Asia.

swampyfool
05-23-2006, 01:04 PM
Hey, Koan, is that a picture of Chief Black Kettle? I guess I already know the answer. Do you really think that he's the black kettle in the pot? I kinda think he sold out his own people (and thus wouldn't be the type of guy that Tool would commemorate), but i haven't really read much . . .

Trainman
05-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Stop talking about Jesus as if he was something special.... go read in the bible, even Jesus said to his followers "There is no Differance between myself and any of you, only i have realized the way"

This is opinion, just like it is the opinion ("faith") of Christians that Jesus _was_ something special. The difference being that I don't think a fair person could read the gospels and come away with the idea that Jesus didn't consider himself special. If you got that idea from the gospels I really think you need to read them again - the support for your argument is not going to come from the Bible.

wags
05-24-2006, 09:29 PM
This is opinion, just like it is the opinion ("faith") of Christians that Jesus _was_ something special. The difference being that I don't think a fair person could read the gospels and come away with the idea that Jesus didn't consider himself special. If you got that idea from the gospels I really think you need to read them again - the support for your argument is not going to come from the Bible.

It is my understanding that Jesus here was not saying that he wasn't different (being divine and all--but that's a debate for a whole other thread, so don't flame me), but telling people that if they followed 'the light and the way', they would have eternal life. Jesus, IMO in fact did not see himself as special, but was given a special task.

swampyfool
05-25-2006, 07:02 AM
It is my understanding that Jesus here was not saying that he wasn't different (being divine and all--but that's a debate for a whole other thread, so don't flame me), but telling people that if they followed 'the light and the way', they would have eternal life. Jesus, IMO in fact did not see himself as special, but was given a special task.
I agree, wags. Remember that humility is an important part of the Christian way of life. A truly special person must be too humble to acknowledge himslef/herself as such, or else it just sounds like a rampant, underdeveloped ego that is starved for attention.

JeffSnow
05-25-2006, 11:40 PM
ok in response to half of the people saying its 'sun', I wand to ask if you have even heard/read the lyrics. There is no whooshy spiritual double meaning.

Maynard has said at least 5 times I have read about that his lyrics are personal.

This is Obviously about him missing out on his son growing up. Look at the last 2 lines of the song.

Silence legion, save your poison.
Silence legion, stay out of my way.

telling us to stay out of his personal life.

You belive your crazy occult meanings to this song, like he is wishing for devil's food cake or whatever you quacks think this song is about.

I love this song.

wags
05-28-2006, 01:45 PM
You belive your crazy occult meanings to this song, like he is wishing for devil's food cake or whatever you quacks think this song is about.

I love this song.


Did anyone say this?

swampyfool
05-28-2006, 05:17 PM
Did anyone say this?
Yeah, but aparently somebody "wished him away . . ."

Gnome_Chomsky
05-28-2006, 06:58 PM
Shine on the broken, Until the two become one could be about his relationship with his son.

Want and need, If I need this I might as well be gone could be refering to his career vs. the relationship with his son, If he really needed his career in comparsion to his son, then his son might as well never see him.

If Maynard thought tomorrow would end his relationship with his son then he would wish it all away, maybe what he's wishing away is his son? Wishing that he never brought him into this world and that he wasnt ready to be a father. Better to have nothing then have a son who has no father?

I dont know maybe that all is too short sighted, I guess thats one possible interpretation.

Bloody
05-28-2006, 07:01 PM
If Maynard thought tomorrow would end his relationship with his son then he would wish it all away, maybe what he's wishing away is his son? Wishing that he never brought him into this world and that he wasnt ready to be a father. Better to have nothing then have a son who has no father?


I'm thinking it is about his son but that sounds a little off. he says i would wish all away if i thought id lose you one day. it seems like he's talking about wishing away the fame and money.

Gnome_Chomsky
05-28-2006, 07:05 PM
fair enough. I kinda overlooked that.

JOK3R
05-28-2006, 08:30 PM
Shine on the broken, Until the two become one could be about his relationship with his son.

Want and need, If I need this I might as well be gone could be refering to his career vs. the relationship with his son, If he really needed his career in comparsion to his son, then his son might as well never see him.

If Maynard thought tomorrow would end his relationship with his son then he would wish it all away, maybe what he's wishing away is his son? Wishing that he never brought him into this world and that he wasnt ready to be a father. Better to have nothing then have a son who has no father?

I dont know maybe that all is too short sighted, I guess thats one possible interpretation.
very interesting. i have never thought of it this way. i agree that he could be wishing he never had a son.

Gnome_Chomsky
05-29-2006, 12:25 PM
I doubt it tho, I mean if he were wishing away his Benevolent son then hed also be wishing away his peice of mind ect.

I kinda just pulled that out of my ass when i was writing, but it is and interesting way to look at it.

Erowyn
05-30-2006, 08:44 AM
ok in response to half of the people saying its 'sun', I wand to ask if you have even heard/read the lyrics. There is no whooshy spiritual double meaning.

Maynard has said at least 5 times I have read about that his lyrics are personal.

This is Obviously about him missing out on his son growing up. Look at the last 2 lines of the song.

Silence legion, save your poison.
Silence legion, stay out of my way.

telling us to stay out of his personal life.

You belive your crazy occult meanings to this song, like he is wishing for devil's food cake or whatever you quacks think this song is about.

I love this song.

legions is not in reference to us it is in reference to the devil's minons that he refers to earlier in the song "the devil and his had me down" in the bible the demons in hell that the devil "sent out" so to speak to bring souls to hell were called Legions... he is telling the evil things in his life to save their poisons and stay out of his way/life... he doesnt want to go back to that life because he has Devo to think about and he wants them to stay away

TurdEye13
05-30-2006, 08:45 AM
I think he is referring to Jesus Christ

eslupminoyler
05-30-2006, 10:38 AM
I think he is referring to Jesus Christ

Agreed.

Or possibly from the Judaic perspective-The Savior who hasn't come yet physically but exists Spiritually.

Max T.
05-30-2006, 11:41 AM
I'm pretty sure it's Devo. There's been much speculation that this song is written about him anyway.

'Shine on benevolent sun' seems a bit 'on the nose' if you ask me. The sun shines. That's what it does. If this is benevolent 'sun' then there's no imagery, no poetry there - no nothing.

I say Devo.

agreed

begmetostay
05-30-2006, 02:14 PM
The song is clearly about devo. Now a few of you think that it's about jesus or maybe maynard saying that he wishes devo never existed.

On the jesus idea some say that he was against christianity or religion at first and now he is reconnecting with it in this CD. Do not read so deeply into lyrics that you loose sight of them. Maynard from nearly the very start of his singing career has said that he has nothing against religion, belief, or faith. Maynard has and continues to be (as proof is found in wings) against organized religion as a means for people to control the thinking of other people. Maynard has not ever had a "beef" with jesus but has had a beef with those who use him as a tool to control. I see that those tool fans who are religious inject their meaning into it but I'm sorry to tell you maynard has not been saved in the way you have. Maynard needs no saving as you have. He had no issue with god, jesus or any other belief. He always has and continues to be an independant thinker. Why would he need saving from his own personal relationship with god?

As for those people who push foward the idea that maynard wishes he never had Devo. You give the example when he said he would wish it all away. Again do not read so deeply into the lyrics that you loose sight of them. You are right that the song is about Devo but the thing he would wish all away is YOU. Yes, the fans, the riches, and constant move. Why on earth would a father wish his son away if he has any relationship with him at all? He wouldn't, but men have sacrificed for their children since the beginning of time. He would give everything away if he thought for one moment he would loose Devo. Those who feel he would let Devo go have obviously not become fathers or mothers yet.

justify_denials
05-30-2006, 06:16 PM
naw, "shine on, benevolent sun" not "Shine on THE benevolent sun" nor, wait anyways this song is about division anyways so it does not matter. Very Schismatic song.

kidadavepushin
05-30-2006, 08:23 PM
Are you fucking stupid?
1. Thirteenthstep is an incredible album, from start to finish it takes you through all these differnent emotions, points of view, and images
2. The song pet is not about Devo its sung from the perspective of a drug talking to someone who has managed to get off of drugs and is still tempted by them, listen to the song again and see if taht amkes it any clearer for you (BTW the whole album is about drug addiction and eventual rehabilitation)

Not so bright. You should really explore a little deeper into the meaning of 13th Step. How many menstrual cycles does a women experience in a given year? And 'swaying to the rhythm of the new world order' is not just a HUGE hint. It's fundamental.

justify_denials
05-30-2006, 10:24 PM
I don't see how Maynard being so much into the privacy he has would write lyrics about his son. I mean, as it is I don't think anyone even has seen a photo of his soon or even knows his middle name or anything about him for that matter.

Florida_Mike
05-31-2006, 06:11 PM
It's Devo H. (speaking of songs related to Devo)

I've really gotten into this song of late, so I figured I'd throw in a few observations about it. The first few verses seem pretty straight up in terms of MJK's enjoyment of the earthly delights. But they seem like a bit of a descension to me. The first doesn't seem to refer to the "evils" of of his actions like the second and third. The view from the top of a mountain certain stands in contrast to "dabbling all the way down" and drowning. What's really cool about the song is the duality (as mentioned earlier) that the song exhibits. It's tough to speculate on exactly who the "you" is in the song, but I'm fairly convinced it's not Devo (after being convinced it was a few weeks ago).

I really think Maynard is emphasizing the balance necessary to achieve some sort of enlightened state. The "you" might not literally be a person, but that state/being/whatever, he's cryptic. He states in:

Wanna wish it all away
No pressure could hold sway
Or justify my kneeling away, my [sinner / center]

...but that doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of organized religion. Certainly most of them would justify your kneeling away your sinner/center in prayer. (Hopefully that'll help put to bed any thoughts of Maynard evangelizing)

Futher:

You're my piece of mind,
[my own / my all]
I said I'm just trying to hold on
One more day

Damn my eyes!

Damn my eyes!
If they should compromise
A fulcrum
Want and need divide me
Then I might as well be gone...

Again, I wish I could figure out what he's finding solice in. He's battling against division throughout the song, because he believes that not existing would be better then to be subject to the ebb and tide of other people's judgments. The song seems to be about finding a higher balance between the good and bad/light and dark/positive and negative. I thought it was interesting that a fulcrum is not only the balance point on a lever, but according to the trusty dictionary.com it's also a point that power is channeled through. In that context it's not just about balance between sides, but rather that balance allows for existence.

The whole sun/son thing is ambigious on purpose it would seem, and to be honest I don't find it that crucial to the song to hammer out a firm definition. Arguing back and forth about whether it's Jesus, Allah or the gingerbread man doesn't really matter, as long as the point is made.

Divided I'm witherwing away

Breathe in union

So, as one, survive
Another day and season
Silent legions save your poison
Silent legions stay out of my way

All of this futher emphasizes that point I made about unification. I know this was long and drawn out and I've taken a lot of liberties with my interpretation, but none of it is that outlandish. A little insight into who "you" is and what the "benevolent sun/son" is would do worlds for this discussion. Take what you will, leave the rest.

Choice Breath
06-06-2006, 11:09 AM
It's Devo H. (speaking of songs related to Devo)

I've really gotten into this song of late, so I figured I'd throw in a few observations about it. The first few verses seem pretty straight up in terms of MJK's enjoyment of the earthly delights. But they seem like a bit of a descension to me. The first doesn't seem to refer to the "evils" of of his actions like the second and third. The view from the top of a mountain certain stands in contrast to "dabbling all the way down" and drowning. What's really cool about the song is the duality (as mentioned earlier) that the song exhibits. It's tough to speculate on exactly who the "you" is in the song, but I'm fairly convinced it's not Devo (after being convinced it was a few weeks ago).

I really think Maynard is emphasizing the balance necessary to achieve some sort of enlightened state. The "you" might not literally be a person, but that state/being/whatever, he's cryptic. He states in:

Wanna wish it all away
No pressure could hold sway
Or justify my kneeling away, my [sinner / center]

...but that doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of organized religion. Certainly most of them would justify your kneeling away your sinner/center in prayer. (Hopefully that'll help put to bed any thoughts of Maynard evangelizing)

Futher:

You're my piece of mind,
[my own / my all]
I said I'm just trying to hold on
One more day

Damn my eyes!

Damn my eyes!
If they should compromise
A fulcrum
Want and need divide me
Then I might as well be gone...

Again, I wish I could figure out what he's finding solice in. He's battling against division throughout the song, because he believes that not existing would be better then to be subject to the ebb and tide of other people's judgments. The song seems to be about finding a higher balance between the good and bad/light and dark/positive and negative. I thought it was interesting that a fulcrum is not only the balance point on a lever, but according to the trusty dictionary.com it's also a point that power is channeled through. In that context it's not just about balance between sides, but rather that balance allows for existence.

The whole sun/son thing is ambigious on purpose it would seem, and to be honest I don't find it that crucial to the song to hammer out a firm definition. Arguing back and forth about whether it's Jesus, Allah or the gingerbread man doesn't really matter, as long as the point is made.

Divided I'm witherwing away

Breathe in union

So, as one, survive
Another day and season
Silent legions save your poison
Silent legions stay out of my way

All of this futher emphasizes that point I made about unification. I know this was long and drawn out and I've taken a lot of liberties with my interpretation, but none of it is that outlandish. A little insight into who "you" is and what the "benevolent sun/son" is would do worlds for this discussion. Take what you will, leave the rest.

This interpretation makes the most sense in my opinion.

One problem I see with the idea that the song is about his son is that Maynard has never said that there was a problem in his relationship with his son. In fact, he has said that the reason he uses costumes and make-up to disguise himself is to preserve his relationship with himself and his family so that, for example, he can go places with his son without being bothered. In one interview he even said it was his son's idea for him to dress like a woman on stage.

On a somewhat unrelated topic: I have no source or citation for this, but someone who knew more about it than I did said that the angel Lucifer's purpose was to shine on, or to illuminate god. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Edit: I forgot to say that Maynard could easily drop the fame and fortune if he wanted to and quit the band and everything else if his relationship with his son were so in jeopardy or broken. He wouldn't have to "wish it all away", he can just walk away if his relationship with his son is broken and is that important to him. I would have to say that I believe that Maynard believes he has free will. So it's just a matter of choice, no need for wishing.

Pierre-Paul
06-07-2006, 05:36 AM
To move away from the morass of debating about the Abrahamic faiths...personally, I found the parts about the "benevolent [son/Sun]" to have allusions to the imagery of the Sun being the visible emanation of the Form of the Good in the physical realm from Plato's Republic. It *would* fit in with the parts about the Two uniting into One, and "shin[ing] down upon the Many".

Just my $0.02, though.

Hasn't anyone other than me been hooked to that comment? I started listening to the song from this perspective and the whole thing absolutely fits with Plato's "Allegory of the cave" from the Republic.

Here's the Plato text:

"Imagine prisoners who have been chained since childhood deep inside a cave. Not only are their limbs immobilized by the chains; their heads are chained as well so that their eyes are fixed on a wall.

Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which shapes of various animals, plants, and other things are carried. The shapes cast shadows on the wall, which occupy the prisoners' attention. When one of the shape-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows.

The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game - naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of images.

Suppose a prisoner is released and compelled to stand up and turn around.

His eyes will be blinded by the firelight, and the shapes passing will appear less real than their shadows.

Similarly, if he is dragged up out of the cave into the sunlight, his eyes will be so blinded that he will not be able to see anything.

At first, he will be able to see darker shapes such as shadows and, only later, brighter and brighter objects.

The last object he would be able to see is the sun, which, in time, he would learn to see as that object which provides the seasons and the courses of the year, presides over all things in the visible region, and is in some way the cause of all these things that he has seen (The Republic bk. VII, 516b-c; trans. Paul Shorey)."

And the interpretation from Wikipedia:
"The Allegory is that of the process and consequence of Enlightenment. First one has to awaken from the dream we call life (breaking the bonds); then we become aware of the webs that influence and move us (shadows on the wall); and finally we see the truth for what it truly is (the sun and world outside the cave). Our instinct and natural desire is to free others and awaken them to the truth, but doing so is futile for they cannot see past the illusions and will only attack the truth bearer."

So yeah, I think Maynard is way into Plato. Both Plato and Maynard's philosophies seem tied. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Plato's motto could have been "Think for yourself, question autorithy" too.

Now let's see how this ties up with Jambi...

Here from the king's mountain view
Here from the wild dream come true
Feast like a sultan, I do
On treasures and flesh never few

Alright, I'm not sure about this one. That sounds to me like Maynard here is "pure as he begins", on the top of the world. It's as if he's strating OUTSIDE the cave, hence the huge sultan party, the treasure of knowledge.

But I would wish it all, away
If I thought I'd lose you just one day

Plato says you absolutely have to be fred by someone else from the cave. You can't break free on your own. I believe the "you" in question is the person that fred Maynard. He is certainly thankful. And now, the fun begins as to speculate who exaclty is this "you". It COULD be Devo, it COULD be Judith Marie, shit, it COULD EVEN be Jesus (although I kinda doubt it): "The brilliant sun outside the cave represents the Form of the Good, and this passage among others can easily give the impression that Plato regarded this as a creative, independent god." So yeah, if you really want to find christianity in Maynard's lyrics, this could work. Or not at all. Let's continue...

The devil and his had me down
In love with the dark side I've found
Dabblin' all the way down
Up to my neck soon to drown.

This is where it starts to get fun analysing this song from Plato's point of view. Someone (the devil) just pushed down Maynard into the cave again (the "dark side"). Since the Cave is a dark, underground place, I feel there's definetly a connection.

But you changed that all for me
Lifted me up, turned me round

Once again, he was helped out. He was lifted up from this cave. The temporality makes it seem like a rollercoaster, but we could also think that the first strophe of the history (not to confound with the narrative) would be "The devil..." and then the "Here from the king's mountain..." being the last. So this makes Maynard, feasting like a sultan, looking back at his experience and the path he had to lead him to enlightement.

So I, I would wish this all away

Pray like a martyr dusk to dawn
Beg like a hooker all night long
Shout to the devil with my song
And got what I wanted all along

This is what you do in the cave. You pray, you beg, you shout in order to get "what you want". "The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game - naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of images." The last sentence is an important key. He got what he wanted, but from his prisonner perspective. Because he doesn't know the truth yet.

But I
I would
If I could
I would
Wish it away
Wish it away
Wish it all away
Wanna wish it all away
No pressure could hold sway
On just a fine line
Kneeling away, my sinner

The prisonner seems ready to wish it all away and to quit the cave. He just needs someone to help break his chains and free his limbs from being in a kneeling position.

So if I could I'd wish it all away
If I thought tomorrow, they'd take you away

WHo is this they? The other prisonners, of course. Freeing prisonners ain't an easy task, you know? This part relates to the "Metaphor of the Sun" in Book VI of the Republic:
"Once enlightened, so to speak, the freed prisoner would no doubt want to return to the cave to free "his fellow bondsmen". The problem, however, lies in the other prisoners' not wanting to be freed: descending back into the cave would require that the freed prisoner's eyes adjust again, and for a time, he would be one of the identifying shapes on the wall. This would make his fellow prisoners murderous toward anyone who attempted to free them." So the other prisonners could take away Maynard's saviour (the "you" mentioned above) befor he gets freed.

You're my piece of mind,
My all
I said I'm just trying to hold on
One more day

Now he's been released. "Similarly, if he is dragged up out of the cave into the sunlight, his eyes will be so blinded that he will not be able to see anything." The exit from the cave ain't a pleasure cruise. "Plato goes on to say that if a prisoner were to break out of his chains and turn around, he would be dazzled by the fire initially, but he would be able to see what was going on and exit the cave. He says that this is a difficult and scary process. He would be defying the guards, his parents, his social influences and his normal way of life. Plato also states that normal prisoners simply do not want to break free. It is too difficult and too scary. They are satisfied with their empirical comfort and do not want to leave."

Damn my eyes!

Damn my eyes!

Now he's outside, and the light is hurting his eyes who were used to see only darkness.

Shine on forever
Shine on benevolent sun (I do believe it's SUN here, but I love the dual aspect of the word as it was pointed out in this thread)
Shine down upon the broken
Shine [on 'til / until] the two become one

Shine down upon the many, light our way,
Benevolent sun.

First, Plato establishes the sun as the source of true knowledge. He then says that the prisoners who sit in the cave represent much of humanity. We sit not knowing the truth; however, as Plato relates, philosophers (freed men) will begin to attempt to loosen our chains.

Breathe in union

So, as one, survive
Another day and season

This is just the prisonner having an orgasm after seeing the truth.
"Upon exiting the cave, the philosopher-prisoner sees the world’s true reality thanks to the sun. His words however cannot describe what he sees and when he returns to the prisoners he has the difficult challenge of explaining it to them. Very few will turn their heads. How can the philosopher explain what he has seen when the prisoners’ language only describes what is seen in the cave?"

Finally, some analysis on the symbolism of the cave to further my point:
Plato then explains that the chains are representatives of our society and our outside influences. They serve to stop us from questioning and help divert our attention onto different aspects of our lives. In order to maintain power the authoritarians cannot have the prisoners (us) turning around, so they have us concern ourselves with trivial matters instead.


AND THE MOST INTERESTING ASPECT:

The cave in which the prisoners sit is our bodies. Our bodies stop us from seeing true reality as they concentrate us on matter. True knowledge which would shine on everything would come from the sun in this analogy, but our caves stop it from reaching us. Plato believes that the soul is trapped in the body, and if we can travel with our soul to the exit of the cave, we can see true reality.

If THAT doesn't EXACTLY relates to Parabola I'm quitting philosphy studying right now

I Know this is fucking long, and maybe really twisted for those who aren't into philosophy, but hey, I tried.

enlightened_one
06-07-2006, 07:15 AM
"In the June 2006 issue of Revolver magazine, Maynard (lead singer) is quoted in his interview as saying "This album has a lot more sadness on it. We've been joking about it in a way, but this is kind of, like, our blues album. There's still a lot of hope in it, and there's still a lot of positive, fun, stuff."
-as quoted from www..kuro5hin.org/story/2006/6/2/23729/31305

I found this web site regarding the definition of 'Jambi' and came across a modest interpretation of the song's use of 'son/sun' mixed with the ritual rites, concepts, and elements from ancient times (at and around Jambi, Indonesia) as related to the song. The author then relates all this to the quote above. I don't necesarily agree with this end point, but the entire article is pretty good.

enlightened_one
06-07-2006, 07:20 AM
"In the June 2006 issue of Revolver magazine, Maynard (lead singer) is quoted in his interview as saying 'This album has a lot more sadness on it. We've been joking about it in a way, but this is kind of, like, our blues album. There's still a lot of hope in it, and there's still a lot of positive, fun, stuff.' "
-as quoted from www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/6/2/23729/31305

I came across this article when researching different defenitions of 'Jambi.' The author has a modest interpretation of the use of the word 'son/sun' as relating to ritual rites, concepts, and context in ancient Jambi (around Indonesia). He then relates all this to the quote above, with which I don't necessarily agree. But the entire article isn't all that bad.

enlightened_one
06-07-2006, 08:15 AM
"In the June 2006 issue of Revolver magazine, Maynard (lead singer) is quoted in his interview as saying "This album has a lot more sadness on it. We've been joking about it in a way, but this is kind of, like, our blues album. There's still a lot of hope in it, and there's still a lot of positive, fun, stuff."
-as quoted from www..kuro5hin.org/story/2006/6/2/23729/31305

I found this web site regarding the definition of 'Jambi' and came across a modest interpretation of the song's use of 'son/sun' mixed with the ritual rites, concepts, and elements from ancient times (at and around Jambi, Indonesia) as related to the song. The author then relates all this to the quote above. I don't necesarily agree with this end point, but the entire article is pretty good.

Get_Ya_Wicked_On
06-07-2006, 08:29 AM
that's just weird.

swampyfool
06-07-2006, 09:29 AM
"In the June 2006 issue of Revolver magazine, Maynard (lead singer) is quoted in his interview as saying "This album has a lot more sadness on it. We've been joking about it in a way, but this is kind of, like, our blues album. There's still a lot of hope in it, and there's still a lot of positive, fun, stuff."
-as quoted from www..kuro5hin.org/story/2006/6/2/23729/31305

I found this web site regarding the definition of 'Jambi' and came across a modest interpretation of the song's use of 'son/sun' mixed with the ritual rites, concepts, and elements from ancient times (at and around Jambi, Indonesia) as related to the song. The author then relates all this to the quote above. I don't necesarily agree with this end point, but the entire article is pretty good.
So, is there some reason that you posted this thrice?

That said, am I detecting a link between the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and this human sacrifice ritual (King, King's Son, Gods and demigods to whom the sacrifice is offered; respectively)? Unless I missed the mark, the whole purpose of this ritual is to bond Father/King to Holy Spirit/Gods-and-Demigods; and does so by equating Son/King's Son to Father/King.

Fucking Christians. Barbarians.

Nonduality
06-07-2006, 09:52 AM
Christian Muslims? Hahaha

OK, um, yeah, alright I won't be mean, I know you meant Christians from the middle east.

Edit: nevermind.

oneskeptic
06-08-2006, 07:59 PM
THis forum is for JAMBI go somewhere else to talk about belittling the Father.. If you don't want the "father" to be belittled maybe you should spell it Father, in the first place. He's just fetching the Holy Trinity to give his mom her wings.. I think she friggin' deserves them.

Well said

swampyfool
06-09-2006, 09:17 AM
I just wanted to point out something that is so obvious that I can't believe that you all have missed it.

I AM THE BENEVOLENT SON!

swampyfool
06-09-2006, 09:18 AM
i posted what benevolent sun(surya) meant in my post he is an old hindu sun god one of the originals wich he married to Sanjna she left the god because he shines to bright (wich maynard is always in the spotlight ). He would wish itall away if he knew he would lose her comon its there in black and white Jambi is located in Indonesia in wich they are big in the hindu religion.surya has 3 eyes and four arms just to add a lil hhhhhhhhmmmmm to my theory the whole 3rd eye thingy.
Can you please punctuate more frequently?

swampyfool
06-09-2006, 09:47 AM
bah i write what im thinking punctuations arnt in my thoughts my mind is all over the place and if i just dont jot down what im thinking then ill lose my thought. sry if this is anoying ill word pad it proof read it and then post it but it isnt what truly is in my mind.
It's just hard to understand what you are saying when the sentences run together like that. If you just go back and add commas and periods after you convert your stream of conciousness into text, it will be much easier for us to have any clue what you are talking about.

DON IOTAE
06-09-2006, 10:06 AM
I doubt it tho, I mean if he were wishing away his Benevolent son then hed also be wishing away his peice of mind ect.

I kinda just pulled that out of my ass when i was writing, but it is and interesting way to look at it.
It's Jesus Christ. Obviously. With the Christian undertone that this album has, it's not surprising...

swampyfool
06-10-2006, 06:29 AM
It's Jesus Christ. Obviously. With the Christian undertone that this album has, it's not surprising...
I don't find that to be obvious. In fact, given his track record, I think that if Maynard was talking about Jesus Christ, this section would have a much more sarcastic delivery.

swampyfool
06-10-2006, 07:09 AM
Click here http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/suryamyth/ it tells you who the benevolent sun is. Jambiians worship him the most being closest to him as per altitude.
Aaaaaaahhhh . . .
Thanks dude, that was a whole lot easier to read. And thanks, dude, for sharing that information.

Wrong as it may be . . .

I said it before, I AM THE BENEVOLENT SUN!!!

swampyfool
06-10-2006, 02:12 PM
lol you may be so please heal the world.
Oh, wait, there are responsibilities . . . SHIT!

I AM NOT THE BENEVOLENT SUN!!!

swampyfool
06-10-2006, 04:44 PM
oh yes . so come of your cross. cause we need that space for the the next fucka.
ouch

smeefsmeef
06-12-2006, 07:18 PM
Oh, wait, there are responsibilities . . . SHIT!

I AM NOT THE BENEVOLENT SUN!!!

Yes you are. Face it... Satan.

jgsnyder1
06-12-2006, 07:50 PM
Hasn't anyone other than me been hooked to that comment? I started listening to the song from this perspective and the whole thing absolutely fits with Plato's "Allegory of the cave" from the Republic.

I Know this is fucking long, and maybe really twisted for those who aren't into philosophy, but hey, I tried.

Well sir, I don't know if you really got any response from anyone, but I wanted to tell you that I was interested in what you had to say. I don't think I would have thought of the allegory which I have known for so long and applied it to the song. Plato, just like Maynard is a badass, and I'm glad that you tried.

At any rate, what I think is interesting is the 'damn my eyes' because I always thought it was 'dim my eyes.' But if he's seeing a lot of sunlight, well fuck, that's pretty much the same thing I think. Well done, I think you may be on to something, of course we'll never know....

smeefsmeef
06-12-2006, 08:08 PM
I just learned about the allegory of the cave in Philosophy class. I immediately thought of this song. Now I'm studying Descartes and Dualism and think that the "EVIL GENIUS" is behind it all. It's true. He told me, and only me. Logic/Math = greatest falsehoods in existence. It's true. Fry a chicken with a bubble-gum crack-pipe.

tomatoms
06-13-2006, 08:11 PM
belial?

http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id1173.html

Benevolent Son
06-13-2006, 08:26 PM
It's definitely not the order. Just imagine what would happen if some peon or serf went to a kings castle entrance and yelled, "Fetch me the King" really loud. He'd be killed or imprisoned. HOw much Greater is Our Heavenly Father that an Earthly king
Far greater. I think it Maynard isn't showing respect, adherance, or concession to his creator. He is on the path to being a Child of God, but not there yet.
His creator? Surely you don't mean God. It's a nice fairy tale but his creator was named Judith. I think he has quite a bit of respect for her.

ArizonaBay
06-16-2006, 04:02 AM
firstly its not devo. How exactly is Devo going to make two become one? The benevolent sun is the light of universal balance and intelligence as appears on the baphomet, or at the point of illumination on that pyramid thingy (you know the one). Two becoming one is referenced in alchemiacal, Hermetic practices which we all know Tool have a great interest in (especially Carl Jungs interpretation relating to the evolution of the mind) and is one of the main themes of the album. The purification of man (like gold from lead) obtained by the perfect union between the mind and body (overthinking over analysing..) i.e. two becoming one.

orangedarkblue
06-16-2006, 09:31 AM
having said that, i do think the double-meaning is intentional, also in keeping with maynard's habit of writing more than one meaning into his lyrics. :)

yup, it's never just 1 thing with MJK. When he says black kettle, you can bet on it it's not just a black kettle he's talking about, 'rosetta stoned' means both the condition following inhalation of the fumes and being on the recieving end of thrown codici...

so when MJK says sthng like son / sun, you can be sure he means both.

tamer
06-18-2006, 08:15 AM
knowledge, enlightment, ur third eye poo gobblers

J Stebbins
06-18-2006, 08:23 AM
I thought it said benevolent tongue...which in my opinion meant anyone who has a good heart, shine on meaning don't change your ways of kindness.

Benevolent :
1. Characterized by or suggestive of doing good
2. Of, concerned with, or organized for the benefit of charity.

ArizonaBay
06-23-2006, 12:03 PM
Its also the same light as mentioned in reflection--- the two songs are practically identical meaning wise

Terry21
06-23-2006, 03:18 PM
I AM THE THIRD EYE POO GOBBLER!

jack's ennui
06-30-2006, 03:53 PM
there have been speculations that this song is about maynard finding jesus, and how he's changing "the devil and his had me down, in love of the darkside i'd found", this referring to his reffrences to things like the use of drugs, like lsd, etc, and his dabbeling in the occult. I, however, say it's about devo, and him just geing grateful, and how he would give up his life and his success for his "benevolent son"

Yondo
06-30-2006, 04:34 PM
I think the lyric son is about Maynard


"Originally Posted by Jambi
Shine on forever
Shine on benevolent sun
Shine on, upon the broken
Shine until the two become one"


The line in bold makes more sense with Maynard being the son.


Oh man, you're right. We need to actually read the lines aroudn the line in question!
This makes perfect sense, now. Which two are in question ,to become one? The son, who shines upon the broken. Who was broken? Judith Marie. Maybe Maynard is to shine on, comtinuing his benevolent life (which, we all know, he lives) making his Mother proud, until the join again. Which means maybe Maynard knows he needs to shape up to see his mommy again. Maybe.

Also, it's fun to note the change in voice during that point in the song. It's higher, as a woman's, almost.




The line is interesting because the song is pretty plainly about his son, Devo. In that line, "shine on benevolent son" he's talking about Devo, but the word "son" sounds exactly the same as "sun" so the imagery is of the sun shining, even though that's not what he actually means. It's the kind of linguistic trick that's exclusive to english, (in french for example, sun = soleil, and son = fils) and it makes the lyrics a good deal more interesting.


The imagery is obvious, many poets use it. It's a good poetic, lyrical trick. The point it, both have to fit the object in question. Devo... really doesn't. This is a tragic song about giving up things for someone, in an album about tragic things. But then again, I don't know the first thing about Devo... maybe someone can enlighten me, maybe with a PM?

its definately "double-ya"
Not sure if you were serious, but for anyone who is, that's dumb. Don't be dumb. Since when does Tool do political affairs? Their works are timeless. They don't deal in current events. That's what punk is for.

The Holy Trinity is not a Christian belief. Judaism, islam, and Christianity believe there is a Father, Son, and Holy SPirit.

Close. Much like in Christianity, Islam is split between the thought of the Holy Trinity. Some Dualist sects of Christianity don't believe in a Holy Spirt. Jews Don't believe in Christ (not yet, at least), and Shiite Islam believes in the sole Father.



What does Jambi Mean?

DON IOTAE
06-30-2006, 06:27 PM
Ok, it's not Jesus. It's Jesus' daughter.

ArizonaBay
07-01-2006, 12:33 PM
^^^ What, Sarah? What makes you think that? Or are you just fuckin about.

Terry21
07-01-2006, 01:31 PM
Haha good idea. I believe more and more that this is a Da Vinci Code (book) concept album.

DON IOTAE
07-01-2006, 01:36 PM
I'm just fuckin' aboot. witcha. sheesh, the book and the movie really did fuck with your brain, huh! all i do is mention sarah and you're with me already! relax guy! it was a joke. i know shit about this whole da vinci code deal. Here's some real issues:
Mr. Morse's plea (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/49431)

ArizonaBay
07-08-2006, 12:56 PM
lol, i thought it had fucked with yours...

DON IOTAE
07-08-2006, 01:10 PM
*lol*

Did you read the article? Funny shit...

skifli60
07-09-2006, 12:42 AM
I'm pretty sure it's Devo. There's been much speculation that this song is written about him anyway.

'Shine on benevolent sun' seems a bit 'on the nose' if you ask me. The sun shines. That's what it does. If this is benevolent 'sun' then there's no imagery, no poetry there - no nothing.

I say Devo.

Im pretty sure it is "shine on benevolent sun" This song connects perfectly with songs like Reflection. I think the song (Jambi) is sung from from multiple perspectives of people who are living life in a downward spiral type of way, or maybe a halo way. But, if they new they would loose "you" ie the Benevolant Sun....Or existance at all, then they would live there life differently. I think this song is meant as a wake up call, as is the entire CD, that humans as a species need to change the path down which we are heading, or we are doomed. This i think is the same message that he is talking about in Rossetta Stoned. Maynard is the chosen one, to try and get us, as in EVERYONE, to change all the bad that is going on in the world. "Beathe in Union, so as one, servive another day and season.......

Terry21
07-09-2006, 05:03 AM
Best meaning I've heard yet! I don't really know what I should think about this lyric.

swampyfool
07-09-2006, 05:34 AM
Im pretty sure it is "shine on benevolent sun" This song connects perfectly with songs like Reflection. I think the song (Jambi) is sung from from multiple perspectives of people who are living life in a downward spiral type of way, or maybe a halo way. But, if they new they would loose "you" ie the Benevolant Sun....Or existance at all, then they would live there life differently. I think this song is meant as a wake up call, as is the entire CD, that humans as a species need to change the path down which we are heading, or we are doomed. This i think is the same message that he is talking about in Rossetta Stoned. Maynard is the chosen one, to try and get us, as in EVERYONE, to change all the bad that is going on in the world. "Beathe in Union, so as one, servive another day and season.......
I like where you're going, but I thought that it had been announced by Blair that the protagonist of Rosetta was not Maynard, or anybody who is currently alive . . .

skifli60
07-09-2006, 06:20 AM
I like where you're going, but I thought that it had been announced by Blair that the protagonist of Rosetta was not Maynard, or anybody who is currently alive . . .


Yeah, that may be true, but that doesn't change the message. Or the fact that TOOL as a unit is still how were are hearing that message