"The Patient"

[jagannath]

I have seen a number of comparisons of "Vicarious" and "Schism", etc... But has anyone listened to the first twenty-three seconds of "Vicarious" and "The Patient"?

The note progression is exact, though "Vicarious" is obviously overdubbed harder and with flair. This is recycled material... The drum parts both start at the exact same time, 00:11, an obvious cover of the lighter material with the new, harder music.

I haven't really had much time to explore this, but my buddy heard a lot of recycled parts throughout the album on his first listen...

All in all it sounds good... But recycled. There is little new in this, for there being five years since the band's last release. I wanted a Rock Opera ala "Rosetta Stoned", with an hour of claymation and pyschedelic surround sound goodness. I got some rehashed musical ideas and an emotional vocal eulogy.

I am patient though, and I will enjoy the album for what it is.

[Alcawhorlick]

yeah, I've thought for a while now that the patient, schism, and vicarious were created around the same time, ie lateralus era. they all sound pretty similar.

[eonphi]

"recycled"..."recycled"..."recycled"...shut up and enjoy it..

[SunBurN]

Yeah there's quite a few "recycled" parts, but that doesn't take away from it, if anything since its familiar, it's like coming home...just feels good after being away for awhile.

[jedi_head]

yeah, I've thought for a while now that the patient, schism, and vicarious were created around the same time, ie lateralus era. they all sound pretty similar.


holy shit. who would have thought that two albums from the SAME BAND would have similarities?!

[jagannath]

holy shit. who would have thought that two albums from the SAME BAND would have similarities?!

It's not simularities in style or even note progression that concerns me. It is the fact that the first 11 to 23 seconds of one song are played over the first 11 to 23 seconds of a previously released song. It's obvious that things were done to mask the original music, but it's STILL there... it's not like this is just similar.

"The Patient" is still there, buried under more layers. And the beginning of "Vicarious" is not the only place on the album that you can find examples of this technique...

I'm not saying it doesn't sound good. I'm saying it's lazy.

[mike09]

It's not simularities in style or even note progression that concerns me. It is the fact that the first 11 to 23 seconds of one song are played over the first 11 to 23 seconds of a previously released song. It's obvious that things were done to mask the original music, but it's STILL there... it's not like this is just similar.

"The Patient" is still there, buried under more layers. And the beginning of "Vicarious" is not the only place on the album that you can find examples of this technique...

I'm not saying it doesn't sound good. I'm saying it's lazy.

So, what are some other places that this can be found?

[TheHolyGift]

For fuck's sake, Vicarious is A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT riff from the Patient. The Patient goes: F D E D D E C E A E, and Vicarious (from what I can tell) goes: D A D C A D A D G D, D A D C A D A F G E. Different notes, different position, different song. The only similar things are the tempo and time signatures. The Patient IS NOT THERE. Find some REAL recycled parts, or just drop it.

[Dianoetic]

Give it a break. If its good enough for Limp Bizkit to release 2 basically identical songs under different names then its good enough for tool.

[champion]

Oh man!

HOW DO PEOPLE STILL THINK THIS IS FAKE!

The albums are OUT! People HAVE THEM.

Christ.

[the great collapse]

Oh man!

HOW DO PEOPLE STILL THINK THIS IS FAKE!

The albums are OUT! People HAVE THEM.

Christ.
i don't think anyone was actually debating that

...

[theprosperone]

JEez, the parts aren't even the same. It just happens to be the same scale and time signature.

The Allman brothers often play in an e major scale and in 4/4 time, does that mean they were just recycling all their material? No.

Its like people just have ears that are equal to what its like to have bad blurry vision, they can make out the general shapes but when it comes to specifics they are completely lost.

[theprosperone]

Just incase you don't see it in the other thread....here they are put on top of each other and the patient is sped up to match the tempo.

As you'll notice, they are not the same. They don't even play the same notes and if my musical knowledge serves me correctly, Vicarious even uses a different mode. The vicarious sample was taken from the radio, its not leaked material.

http://download.yousendit.com/4C593E0C7C620654

They are only in the same key and time signature. Most bands out there put every song in the same time signature and 50% of all rock music ends up being in the key of E or E flat.

[crysyn]

[QUOTE=jagannath]It's not simularities in style or even note progression that concerns me. It is the fact that the first 11 to 23 seconds of one song are played over the first 11 to 23 seconds of a previously released song. It's obvious that things were done to mask the original music, but it's STILL there... it's not like this is just similar.

"The Patient" is still there, buried under more layers. And the beginning of "Vicarious" is not the only place on the album that you can find examples of this technique...

I'm not saying it doesn't sound good. I'm saying it's lazy.[/QUOTE
I like that you used the word mask, notice the cd cover is a kind of a mask.

[crysyn]

Give it a break. If its good enough for Limp Bizkit to release 2 basically identical songs under different names then its good enough for tool.
Maynard was asked what he thought of Limp Bizkit looking up to TOOL, he said that those bands all sound like they do songs that make them sound like they are just doing cover songs of themselves, so Limp Bizkit covering Limp Bizkit.

[crysyn]

It's not simularities in style or even note progression that concerns me. It is the fact that the first 11 to 23 seconds of one song are played over the first 11 to 23 seconds of a previously released song. It's obvious that things were done to mask the original music, but it's STILL there... it's not like this is just similar.

"The Patient" is still there, buried under more layers. And the beginning of "Vicarious" is not the only place on the album that you can find examples of this technique...

I'm not saying it doesn't sound good. I'm saying it's lazy.
I like that you used the word mask, notice the cd cover is kind of a mask.

[BDT]

Actually it reminded me of the Grudge the first time I listened to it.

[submachine]

I have seen a number of comparisons of "Vicarious" and "Schism", etc... But has anyone listened to the first twenty-three seconds of "Vicarious" and "The Patient"?

The note progression is exact, though "Vicarious" is obviously overdubbed harder and with flair. This is recycled material... The drum parts both start at the exact same time, 00:11, an obvious cover of the lighter material with the new, harder music.

I haven't really had much time to explore this, but my buddy heard a lot of recycled parts throughout the album on his first listen...

All in all it sounds good... But recycled.

It's not just Vicarious; the last half of the CD sounds constantly sounds like "The Patient", but not as satisfying, which is saying a lot since "The Patient" is good, but certainly not their best.

[submachine]

Yeah there's quite a few "recycled" parts, but that doesn't take away from it, if anything since its familiar, it's like coming home...just feels good after being away for awhile.

lol, if you want to go back to old material you don't need a new cd.

After YEARS in the making, 10000 Days should blow you away, not sound like a re-hashed extended version of "The Patient".

[A-Bomb]

I agree it does sound a bit rehashed. But, maybe it is meant to. Maybe Vicarious, Schism, and The Patient are all siblings. Why are you trying to break up the family?!

[montsegur]

...this whole album was made back in the lateralus days so maybe they decided to hold it for a few years and then record it and reep the money...maybe they knew back that it would be hard for them to put out an album that was better then lateralus so they insted just reproduced a copy of it....

[submachine]

...this whole album was made back in the lateralus days so maybe they decided to hold it for a few years and then record it and reep the money...maybe they knew back that it would be hard for them to put out an album that was better then lateralus so they insted just reproduced a copy of it....

That would explain

Lateralus > Vicarious > 10000 Days

[communication]

the distortion in the opening melody is the same from many lateralus songs. its the biggest thing you are hearing. that said I really think its there best single since stinkfist. whatever that means.

[TheThirdEyeofVisnu]

I just don't get why "rehashing" is so bad! I loved Lateralus and I like you, hear similar riffs. Why is that a problem? I've listened to 10,000 days 4 times straight through, and I can tell you that this is NOT Lateralus redone. Similarities, sure. I kind of like the connectedness. The idea if the first 11 to 23 seconds of a riff being the same and that being a bad thing eludes me I guess. Especially since the songs are far longer than that.

I think that based on the album art etc. Similarities were part of the point. TOOL did not dissapoint me, that's for sure.

[EdwardJamesKeenan]

how was the whole album amde arund the lateralus days? wings for marie pt 1 nad 2 are about MJKs mother, she died in 2003 after 10 000 days of suffering, and o my knowledge (i.e I know i am right about this) lateralus was released in 2001 a full 2 years before judith marie keenan (garrison) died. explain that one.

and before we call TOOl lazy, did pink floyd not do various versions of the same songs on the wall? we they lazy? dont think so.

[TheThirdEyeofVisnu]

how was the whole album amde arund the lateralus days? wings for marie pt 1 nad 2 are about MJKs mother, she died in 2003 after 10 000 days of suffering, and o my knowledge (i.e I know i am right about this) lateralus was released in 2001 a full 2 years before judith marie keenan (garrison) died. explain that one.

and before we call TOOl lazy, did pink floyd not do various versions of the same songs on the wall? we they lazy? dont think so.

I didn't know that was about MJK's mom. That's awesome.

[submachine]

I just don't get why "rehashing" is so bad!

Why don't you tell TooL its a rehash and see if they consider it an insult.

It's lazy.

And if they are gonna redo shit, redo Ticks And Leeches...or Aenima

[FatalDeath]

I highly doubt Tool would put rehashings of "The Patient" (or any other song) throughout their new album...I mean to say it appears several times is just retarded. Why that song? Why this album? Why would they even remotely want to put a musical theme from one song on one album spread out within this one? I just don't think it adds up...I mean, it's like saying Pink Floyd purposely wrote Dark Side of the Moon in order to match it up to The Wizard of Oz. It's all speculation. Just listen to the album and be happy it's here. The lyrics are original. The rest is just similarities within one band's music...if you look hard enough you can find anything in anything...as long as that's what's in your mind.

[submachine]

if you look hard enough you can find anything in anything...

Ok Einstein...funny how no one is finding Aenima....or Parabola...or Ticks and Leeches......unfortunately.

[Oberon]

I just don't get why "rehashing" is so bad! I loved Lateralus and I like you.




Oh! I Like you too!

[Un coup de dés]

Bach borrowed from himself in the St. Matthew Passion, Beethoven borrowed from himself in the late string quartets, Mozart, Haydn, Bartok, Strainsky all borrow from each other, why can't Tool?

also, I thought it was already proved that they weren't the same riff? as if to say that each song has notes in the same range on the guitar, from the same mode, played in defferent patterns. They have a strikingly similar sound, but they are not the same riff. maybe it was intentional?

[submachine]

They have a strikingly similar sound

And that took 5 years? lol

[Oberon]

1 year.
not this shit again

[submachine]

Danny mentioned in an interview they only worked 1 year on 10,000 Days.

Which is the point. They had 5 years off, they only worked for one year, and the album sounds like it was made in one month.

[Mooseifer]

The only thing that is truly "RECYCLED" around here are these threads.

[dekard49]

5 years to work on it? The fact you post that makes a discussion useless.

The album sounds excellent.

This 1 year/ 5 year argument is vexing :(

I think the point the 5 yearers are trying to make is that (although the applied writing was just one year), the extra 4 years would hardly have been spent in vacuum; in fact, TOOL are often quoted as saying they leave so long between albums so the outcome is something that has been organicially grown, not rushed out for the next marketing cycle -- if TOOL only take 1 year to make an album, then theyre point that all these bands who release a new album every 1-2 years are recycling themselves becomes redundant.

In that aspect the 5 yearers have a point, ideas and chords and possible lyrics are likely to have been generated over the entire 5 year period, and yes, the album could be considered a little wanting when looked at in that light.

The 1 yearers seem to be sticking to the point that the bulk of the writing, the actual logisitics of turning idea to sound was done over a intense 1 year period, and this is reflected in their sound.

Both sides have points, just wanted to highlight them, its gets frustrating watching people shouting the odds at each other (which is never going to resolve anything) instead of discussing the points; I guess that the biggest letdown on this board which otherwise has some very interesting discourse.

:)

EDIT: Not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a general observation.

[dekard49]

Oh man!

HOW DO PEOPLE STILL THINK THIS IS FAKE!

The albums are OUT! People HAVE THEM.

Christ.

:/

[FatalDeath]

You guys have gone from "they're lazy" to "it sounds rushed" and now how long it took them to complete the album. It sounds complete, it sounds like they didn't rush it, and it sounds good. End of story. I mean christ, if they rushed it, it would sound like eMotive...I think that's the primest example of a rushed album.

[jackalEleven_c90]

There is another thread venturing the guess that "10,000 Days" is an extention of sorts to "Lateralus" (the tracks "The Grudge" through the end of "The Patient" spicifically). I heard a similarity to "The Patient" and some other "Lateralus" tracks. There is also something in the album that sounded, to me, a lot like "Eon Blue Apocalypse", but I don't remember exactly where it was in the album.

I'm thinking that the connections to "Lateralus" were more intentional than not (as we can see clear style differances from "Opiate" to "Undertow" to "Aenima" to "Lateralus", so clearly they're not retarded and they can change stylistically).

Now, I haven't gone through and analyzed any musical theory to these theories as of yet, but I do admit many of the guitar/rhythm portions of many of the songs are very similar to material on "Lateralus". Also, some of the lyrics could have some homages to songs on "Lateralus" as well.

[FatalDeath]

Good point. It probably does draw a lot from Lateralus. The more arguements I see, the more I'm leaning that way, but, I just don't think it's a BAD thing. If you liked Latueralus...technically speaking, you should like this album then.

[submachine]

ideas and chords and possible lyrics are likely to have been generated over the entire 5 year period, and yes, the album could be considered a little wanting when looked at in that light.

A little wanting?

10000 Days sound like rejects from Lateralus. Not just similar. Worse.

80 minutes of sound, 10 tracks only half of which can be considered actual songs?

That averages out to one mediocre song per year, and this from the band that made Aenima?

[oddjob0713]

For fuck's sake, Vicarious is A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT riff from the Patient. The Patient goes: F D E D D E C E A E, and Vicarious (from what I can tell) goes: D A D C A D A D G D, D A D C A D A F G E. Different notes, different position, different song. The only similar things are the tempo and time signatures. The Patient IS NOT THERE. Find some REAL recycled parts, or just drop it.
100% accurate, the only similarity is the 5/4. I read an interview were Maynard says something along the line of "You have to go all the way back to Undertow to find similar soundscapes." And besides this album (or any Tool album for that matter) shouldn't be compared to their others. It's not supposed to be anything more than it's very own singular masterpiece.

[FatalDeath]

And besides this album (or any Tool album for that matter) shouldn't be compared to their others. It's not supposed to be anything more than it's very own singular masterpiece.

Amen.

[mrmoopy33]

A little wanting?

10000 Days sound like rejects from Lateralus. Not just similar. Worse.

80 minutes of sound, 10 tracks only half of which can be considered actual songs?

That averages out to one mediocre song per year, and this from the band that made Aenima?


Since when has Tool made a cd specifically to release songs? They have always been a band to have some form of a theory going in their cds. They have always had more songs with depth and length than shorter songs with no point. Their music is not meant to come across the first couple times as good, but something you have to listen to and think about and "feel" it. In fact some even tend to feel like multiple songs within songs. As well as others to build/intensify others.

10,000 days equals out to roughly 27 years, so it may take you 27 years to understand the aspect of the cd or that the cd requires time to understand. So it may seem that they are mediocre when in fact they instill a sense of mediocrity off of a glance. But it seems to be put together well, or at least to me. Just less intense but more in depth. And seems to be a pretty good and solid album.

[lessthanmurf]

The only thing that is truly "RECYCLED" around here are these threads.

wins thread!

[beligerentfokker]

when i first got a copy of this song, i prefixed vicarious with eon blue apocalypse because i noticed a similarity with the intro to the patient as well. maybe the patient suffered from a schism and just sat around viewing the tube vicariously.

[lambandmartyr]

this is an interesting discussion. being a tool fan, however, i'm inclined to give the band the benefit of the doubt. in addition, going through the entire tool catalog, you find similarities in sound, vibe, and maturity of the band, musically, in opiate and undertow. but neither of those albums (funny how we still talk about the product in terms of vinyl) sounds anything like the subsequent three. aenima seems to be a bridge between the former two and the latter(alus) two. aenima put the band on the map, from a popularity pov. lateralus showed a change, too, lyrically, over the previous three albums and 10000 days continues that trend. musically, 10000 days and lateralus have much in common, as did opiate and undertow. bottom line, however, is that 10000 days is a right fuckin masterpiece. nobody...but nobody touches this band in terms of music. Danny and Justin are in a class (shit, on a planet) by themselves, in terms of rhythm; Adam, as self depricating as ever, while not the guitar god archetype of old (read eddie van halen, et al), has redefined rock guitar playing a la jimmy page--apocolyptic riffs that tear away and then rebuild the human soul; and Maynard...holy fuck, people, this guy takes his hat off to everyone out of humility but the man IS the man with a mic in his hand. who else could sing ...i have felt some kind of temporary sanity in this shit, blood, and cum on my hands... and leave the listener stunned at the power of the words? i'm in awe of this band and have been since first i heard sober. thank god for TOOL!