I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. [Archive]

hyeboy

11-23-2002, 01:49 AM

Not only can you apply the following to this song, but you can see elements of what I’m about to say interwoven throughout Lateralus. At least this is what it helps me cope with when I hear it all the way through…..

I often refer to "The Matrix" when I try to explain to others how I view life. I no longer see reality as others do, but rather as codes to a really big program. There are soooooooooo many lines in that movie that I couldn't have phrased better myself. Like reference of being born into a prison you can not see or taste or touch or smell. “A prison for the mind” or how "reality" is the world that has been pulled over our eyes to blind us from the truth. And one of my favorites is that most people are not ready to be unplugged because they are so inert, so hopelessly dependant on the system that they will fight to keep it!

For example, how will men know the way to behave if they are not told? “Men” need to be fed the data for being a male. You have to be ill mannered, perverted, insensitive, emotionless, white trash, dominant, sexist pigs keeping distance from your soul. If you hug another guy, you’re gay. If you can’t fight, don’t watch football, and don’t drink till you puke, you’re a sissy. And so the parameters are set so we can further categorize and classify each other and build layer upon layer of definitions and control. If you take away the rules, what are you left with? Questions with no answers. People fear having to think for themselves. People feel naked without the blanket of confinement. People fear being open and vulnerable, being out there cold and uncomfortable, not knowing any answers.

Applying to "The Patient"....

Do you know what it's like thinking this way every living, breathing moment of your life? Do you know what it's like to be unplugged from the Matrix and have to live amongst the programmed, the political authorities, the cultural boundaries, the religious prisons and corporate world trying your patience, sucking you dry? The tedious task of explaining to people why you approach life in this manner? It's painful, and the question of why you even bother ALWAYS plagues you. There are many moments that make you want to crumble and give in. The vampire corporations, the media, the lawyers, business men, smiley glad hands with hidden agendas that continuously suck vitality and spirituality out of “life”. They bring everything into a boring and mundane focus so that you don’t feel susceptible, so that you’ll have a path created for you instead of having to make your own.

So why take this alternate path when it puts everything at risk and questions the very foundations of our current existence? "If there were no rewards to reap, no loving embrace to see me through, this tedious path I’ve chosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now!" Ahhh…but the rewards ARE great! Fore the answers are out there, where people aren’t telling you to look, where people don’t know to look! They are not at your churches, they are not in your text books, they are not held by L. Ron Hubbard. They are past the boundaries, past your customs, traditions, and chains which binned you. There is so much to explore, to taste, and to embrace. I choose to swim in the chaos. I choose to embrace the darkness as well as the light. I choose to continue searching for answers knowing no one I’ve met yet has them because they are all “part of the system”. The quest that keeps the weary going. Otherwise, by now I would have died. I MUST KEEP REMINDING MYSELF OF THIS! I must remember that this is why I don’t allow myself to sink back into the system. Once you’re unplugged, you’ve already reached the point of no return. This is why, no matter how tired I feel, no matter how much I feel like walking away, I’m “gonna’ wait it out!”

ragna16

11-23-2002, 09:15 AM

Reality is only a sum of ones senses and memories. In The Matrix it was the senses that were controlled to alter reality. In 1984 and books like it, it was perception that were controlled to alter reality.

Since you summed up the Matrix nicely, I will apply it to 1984.

In 1984 Winston comes to realize his hate for the party, and their mind control mechanisms. He does various unimportant acts that prevent the party from being able to control him as effectively, (a diary, and an antique paper weight). At this point he has already doomed himself because the man he purchased those things from was a member of the thought police. Eventually he is caught and brung under the party's influence, basically they 'fix' his mind by torturing him until he breaks, and then probe and 'fix' his mind with similar pain and logic. O'Brien even explains the way that the party has come to be and controls the past, present, and future, and how reality is tangible and changable.

He waits patiently for the end, keeping faith that sometime and eventually the partry will be overthrew. He must keep reminding himself that their reality is false.

LyingRealist

11-27-2002, 05:01 AM

Hyeboy, the only problem i've found with your views is that the way you dismiss everyone you've met as not living the way you think they should.
Think about this, while I agree with you, I also believe that you can't successfully live In that way unless there others you can talk to and relate to.
A little story I want to share.
In the area that I live the new coolest thing is to be a "gangster" now i know in america its nothing new.
but the problem is we have the race of maoris with darker skin a little lighter than african-americans. despite the fact they are in no way related to african american alot of them claim they are in all the american gangs due to skin colour.
With the hip hop gangsters come their culture, the problem is now everyone else wants to be a gangster.
For people like me who prefer smart thinkin to fights and stealing, there is nowhere for us to meet and hang and as such we tend to have a smaller amount of people that socialise as well as we could.
The thing is, everyone is so stuck in the mindframe of theres nowhere for us to go that we arent actually going out and meeting like-minded individuals. It's a cycle that cannot be stopped unless alot of people with the same beliefs actually do find a way to socialise and meet. and the thing is not many people do because of the cycle.
I fear there is little hope for us here.

Now i may have confused the hell out of you but basically what i'm saying is until there are enough people ready to change and look at life the same as you, the system will work against you.
The best idea Ive had is to build my own island out of rubbish and create a new society that lets everyone be who they want to be.

Braydon

12-01-2002, 02:04 AM

i do agree with your views but you do raise the question Why Do so called Free Thinking individuals think alike?
Now i'm not saying i'm perfect but maybe you shouldn't judge these people no matter how stupid they ideas appear because by writing them off make you just as narrow minded.Because your way is just one, and not everyone needs to follow that path. And maybe people don't want to live on this island of rubbish if people want to live in a world dictated by Mtv, product placement and everything else that fine as long as they accept my views are my own just as i try to do for them.

hyeboy

12-01-2002, 10:29 AM

Hahaha! When you get the island situated LyingRealist, you let me know. I'll be the first one on a plane. I see the point that both of you are making, but I feel you are misinterpreting what I mean to some degree. I didn't mean to make it sound as if I'm coming down on THEM, I'm sick of THEM coming down on ME! I'm sick of the comments like I'm psycho, that doesn't make any sense, blah blah blah. Think about how Neo must have felt coming back to "the real world" knowing what he knew, and having to fit back in and not say anything. That's how I feel constantly. The only time I "look down" on another's point of view is when I'm defending myself against their point of view, defending my reasoning for choosing this path. It happens on a daily basis and that tends to slowly suck the life out of you and make you want to walk away. But I’m hoping that we as a people will eventually change. That’s why “I’m still right here, giving blood keeping faith.” That's the way I look at "The Patient".

I know it's narrow minded to dismiss peoples views, but what I'm getting at is the fact that these views are NOT their own! They have been formed FOR them, not by them. It's sort of like looking at the track list from a CD and choosing what you're going to play. "Hmm, do I want to be a gang banger, a jock, a "gothic friek", a nerd....?” Sometimes you have to factor in the "up bringing" and any psychological damage that has caused which could affect the track you select. I’m looking at "a terrible up bringing" as being an experience to learn and grow from, not a cycle I have to be stuck in. I'm questioning the track list. I'm asking why people have to pick from it and I get frustrated because there is no logical explanation for it, and yet so few people question it. The reason why people pick from the track list is because they don't realize that there's a whole world of music out there. They don't realize that they don't HAVE to pick from this particular list of songs. THAT'S what I have a problem with.

I'm not saying there's a certain way to think, I'm simply saying THINK, period, which is basically what Tool is all about. How can I really be telling anyone that they should think like me when what I think is constantly changing and "evolving" if you will? This isn't so much about thinking someone else's opinions are right or wrong as it is about where those opinions came from. I don't care what you think as long as you've come to those conclusions on your own. For example, I'm positive that there will be many things Maynard and I completely disagree on, but would I look down on him for that? No, and I'd hope he wouldn't look down on me either. I can accept our differences BECAUSE they have been thought out entirely on our own, and not filtered through some system that determines what's "real" or acceptable and what's not.

My problem is with everyone subconsciously being TOLD what to believe and what is the truth and not realizing that it’s happening to them, not realizing that they have a choice. My problem is being called a weirdo or childish when I can get great joy out of simple things people can't comprehend. “Um…you didn’t win the lottery, buy a Lexus, screw a hot chick. What are you so happy about?” I’M the one being judged because I don't fit into the system.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is instead of looking down on me for not trying to fit in, maybe you should clearly think about why you're TRYING to fit in! (I'm not referring to you two). Should hold some interesting answers. That's how MY path got started. I realized how ridicules that sounds and everything was a domino effect from there on out. I questioned everything and that's when I unplugged and "the code" became visible to me. I have been trying ever since then to accomplish what Morpheus tells Neo. It’s very hard, but I’m willing to wait it out. "You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. FREE YOUR MIND"!

Microsoul

12-01-2002, 11:24 AM

That was great Hyeboy, LyingRealist, ragna16, and anyone else I left out. I know exactly how you guys feel, and now I laugh at some of them because they just follow like sheep. Seriously, some kid on the school bus (I'm a junior in high school) was bragging he was wearing the same shoes as "Nelly" wore in a video, and thats the reason he said he got them. They don't even question what they're doing, or think for themselves, they just get the latest product "begging for their fatass dirty dollar." Okay, maybe I got a little of subject, but I know how you guys feel, because I feel the same.

Alx_Ev

12-01-2002, 09:21 PM

I mean you have really good points and the Matrix is an excellent film to refer to...But The matrix isn't the first to come up with those 'revelations'. They've only taken the words of great philosophers and projected them in a technological way, the matrix. "A prison for the mind" is simply a line that refers right back to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave". Anywayz, yo probably all know this so I wont waste your time, but you definitely had some good points and it was amusing to read.

see you auntie...

Microsoul

12-02-2002, 09:28 PM

"And one of my favorites is that most people are not ready to be unplugged because they are so inert, so hopelessly dependant on the system that they will fight to keep it!"

Yes! I truely believe if people really want to be free and live in peace then we would abandon any and all governments. This is the only way to be free and live in peace! We will be free from most of the problems that face us if we do this.

I've also been thinking about something else. I can't stand school, and I even stayed home today, because they just teach you how to follow and NOT think for yourself. They created this crap and claim you must follow their system and rules. People think its bad to skip school and just stay home or whatever, but why? People then say so that you can get a good job, ect. in this system. Well what if I don't wanna be part of this system? What if I don't want to become another thoughtless drone?

So I have come to the conclusion that we need to tear down the system for the sake of humanity!

KILLIAN

12-02-2002, 09:54 PM

Freedom!!??.... What is freedom? and who is TRUELY free?

hyeboy

12-02-2002, 10:13 PM

Well KILLIAN, I know it should be a difficult, philosophical question, but for me it's pretty clear cut and dry. Freedom is being open and vulnerable with no answers. Freedom is not being told what your few options are, but to be offered infinite possibilities. Unleashing your self from the "lead role in a cage".

minusrestraint

12-03-2002, 11:32 AM

hyeboy, go to amazon.com , and look for a book called "The Desert of the Real: The Matrix and Philosophy" . I REALLY think you'll enjoy it.

ShackledEidolon

12-03-2002, 12:43 PM

As long as we are on the topic of philosophy turned movie relating to Tool we also can see a lot of connections to Fight Club or anything else Neitchze (spelling?) related. The reason that all these philosophies seem powerful is because they are all pointing towards the realization of Truth with a capital T rather then truth that we all exist in today and are bound to by society. The only way to see this truth without the distortion is to realize that we are our own question. We are asking ourselves...and we alone can answer our own truths. Shedding our identity (or what we think our identity is) is difficult. It is painful, it is confusing, and yet it allows us to distill our truth from everything else...it turns our piss into wine...as it were.

By the way Minusrestraint Im from Paris IL just south of you...funny seeing how close by some people are

hyeboy

12-03-2002, 08:32 PM

Okay, some thank yous are in order:

Ragna 16: Thanks for the reference of the book 1984. I had heard of it, but never really knew anything about it.

minusrestraint: Thanks for the suggestion! I will definitely give that a read!

And for everyone else: Thank you for the input and discussions of opinions and views. I joined this site for this very reason, but I'm not finding much intellectually stimulating conversation going on. This is probably the best response to a post I've received yet, not that I've started many.

I know there are lots of philosophical as well as biblical references in "The Matrix", nothing new being said, just explained in a different format. But this is my top pick for explaining how people like us view reality because it is so clear cut and every line sounds like something I'd say! "Have you ever stood there and marveled at it…? Millions of people living out their live, oblivious". And that says it all. People are oblivious to there existence, oblivious to the fact that there are people around them. It's a sad little reality we've got going here. But we must "be patient"!

Microsoul

12-04-2002, 03:04 PM

Can someone else share their thoughts on my last post. I also enjoy this conversation very much, Hyeboy.

Braydon

12-04-2002, 10:54 PM

Hyeboy i do agree with your point about people's opinions being formed for them. There are a lot people out there who are dicks i only consider them cocks because they give me shit, they don't affect me and only help me form bad opinion about them.
But inside this group of people there are alot of cool people but it seems that they feel the need to impress thier friends (insecure i guess i don't know) by following others unforturely these others are fake, mean and usally have some kind of inferorite complex (think the man from eulogy) the difference between me and these cool people are very few but i have realised eulogy people are dickheads and they haven't, or have not had the courage to walk away to walk through the door if you like.
if you don't belive me try to talk to some of these people when there on there own you may find they very similar to you.
microsoul you shouldn't skip school what does it achieve?
School is important despite what you think, it allows you to deal with these people because if you don't now when will you?.
Do really care wheather some nob on your bus wears 300 dollar shoes? i wouldn't hey it's not my money why do i give shit.
And no one has ever in my life hey you must follow this, accept or die.
sure i go to school i do the work, i accept we need rules to a limit because in 100000 bc or so, humans work out we do need a system, it just some poeple follow and others work this out and took advantage of them.

LyingRealist

12-05-2002, 03:00 AM

I have to say it, this entire Thread is like a complete mirror to my very belief/logic system.
I'm blown away by the things said here and the positive way everyone has put things.
Every new posting has made me stop and think for a good day at least, so when i read 3 in a row I have my work cut out for me!
Thank you everybody whose posted for making me stop to question whether I really am the only genius in the world ;)

As usual I try to say something and it comes out wrong or not exactly as i meant then one of you come along and voice my opinion in the way I wouldve if I was as gifted and eloquent.

Skipping school really isnt good for you because when you do go in you have 3 times as much work to do.
I know this because until I left I hated the entire school system, the teachers saying I am the LAW! do my bidding!
yada yada yada. It's not so much that as the way you go in all shiny and new and brimming with excitement and you come out a packaged replica of everyone else.
I think learning is good, but system which presents it to you isnt.

LyingRealist

12-05-2002, 03:04 AM

Has anyone read any Bob Frissell?
if so can they please tell me where i can get either read it online or where i can order it from?
Living in New Zealand its hard to find really good books etc.
Thanks .

Cracker

12-05-2002, 06:10 AM

You all call our society a prison, and say that Government restricts our ability to be free. You all seem to think this is a bad thing.

Yes, it is true that we aren't free due to the conformitist society we live in, but it is the ONLY way we have gotten this far as a species. Freedom and chaos are one in the same. Every cultural group of people in existance adhere to a set of rules, because all of the cultures that didn't destroyed themselves. If society wasn't so constraining we'd be out of control, like a bunch of spoiled toddlers.

And what is so great about freedom? once you are free, what are you going to do? Our society gives us enough freedom to avoid being slaves to the wage, and to express ourselves. We don't have to hunt for food, or skin animals for fur. If this is a jail cell, its a damn fucking comfortable one.

If you want to experience utter freedom, take up lucid dreaming. While incredibly fun, Its kind of lonely and depressing.

ShackledEidolon

12-05-2002, 08:17 AM

Its only lonely and depressing if you are afraid of exploration.

But as far as Gov't making life comfy...sure it provides us with some benifits otherwise no one would live in it. However I think what is being said is that a Governing body or group of people with conservative view points provides more resistence to intellectual (maybe spiritual is a better word) growth then a government of individuals (true democracy).

What I feel the large problem is with the way our governing body functions is that in general we are taught to obey and accept what others tell us because it gives that governing body easier access to power. If the system instead taught people to critically think, access situations, and derive their own understandings of the way things work then we would be in a better place. Its like the stages of morality by Kohlberg (http://www.geocities.com/buildnextgen/Kohlberg.htm has some info on it). It has always seemed to me that people in general are stuck or delayed in the lower half of this scheme. We obey because we are afraid of punishment, or we obey because of the approval we recieve from others, or we obey because there is something in it for us. For the most part no one really understands the reason for the rules or how to make them accomidate to our current needs instead we use them to dominate ourselves. If we utilized the rules to better ourselves as a society, through understanding of the rules then we would truly be living in a democracy and one that would be Just and capable of allowing true intellectual freedoms. But as is now we as a people are afraid to think on our own and so our Gov't limits and confines us rather than aids us into exaltation.

Microsoul

12-05-2002, 10:49 AM

"microsoul you shouldn't skip school what does it achieve?
School is important despite what you think, it allows you to deal with these people because if you don't now when will you?.
Do really care wheather some nob on your bus wears 300 dollar shoes? i wouldn't hey it's not my money why do i give shit.
And no one has ever in my life hey you must follow this, accept or die.
sure i go to school i do the work, i accept we need rules to a limit because in 100000 bc or so, humans work out we do need a system, it just some poeple follow and others work this out and took advantage of them."

In the REAL world, not the world that this system has created (Please no one respond saying "what's real?"), this shit doesn't matter. It doesn't let me deal with them, only makes me follow and forget why I loathe this whole system so much. I don't really care who wears expensive shoes, I just observe how they only want something because someone else has it. Its like life is just one big sale (well, not really, I just wanted to say that).

If you want to live in countries like the US, and not live on the streets and/or starve, then you MUST follow their system. EVERY government is murderous, and the only way to stop tyranny is to not have any government at all. Most people here think that everyone an asshole, but I say that aren't just born like that. If we get rid of government and yes, jobs, everyone will be a lot happier. Sure there is a lot of things that would be needed to worked out, but I think overall this a good idea.

Here is a link to something about abolishing work and it has some good ideas....http://www.geocities.com/jrstrader2000/abolishwork.htm but I do think that since its already going in that direction, we can have machines that take over jobs if the system is gone.

As for school, I don't really learn anything there anyway, and yes, I pay attention. This is the main reason why I hate it so much. Anything I may learn from their teachings in things like in Math, I can just read out of the textbook because thats where they get all their crap from. History class is just like one big class to teach lies, disinformation, and to not think for yourself, question authority.

I don't think I'll be able to graduate in a year in a half anyway because of what the government is doing. THIS IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT, but I know that US government is engineering the terrorist attacks, and even if they are not, they are certainly taking advantage of them to create a police state. We are not free and never will be with government....

Braydon

12-05-2002, 10:24 PM

mircosoul there are other reasons why school is important thats just one.I am interested what is in this real world cause i don't think i've found it, who else is in this real world? you? you hate everything, the system or so you call it so i dout you are in this real world of yours. And even in this real does everyone think for themselves or do you do all of the thinking.
let's say we do get rid of it all, goverment, schools, jobs, money etc and get these machines do everything what will the humans do then, live like gods? no it would bring what had before back just in a different form- people will still conform to someone, the only real difference i can see is that people will just have nothing to do so will spend all there time and money on product there can't, won't and don't want to buy.
i think you may be living in the fake world.
and you say that history teaches you not to think for yourself i had an rocker teacher in history he always want us to think for ourselves and do not belive everything your told.

Microsoul

12-06-2002, 08:26 AM

Ok, maybe that real world part didn't come out the way I wanted it to. What I meant was the world that the governments haven't created, and no I don't mean jungles etc. What I meant was, like with the US, a bunch of people just came across the ocean, claimed that they owned the land, and made rules and regulations. They make all this crap up and expect everyone to follow it. Lets say a police guy tries to arrest you for some shit, they expect you to go with him because of the laws that they made. What if you don't accept the government, because there is only a government because we say so. Do you think you should have to follow all these stupid rules and regulations that they make? Do you have to accept a piece of paper that says what you can and can't do? Borders can be applied to this too. They (btw, I mean the government/s by saying them or they) create borders to seperate different governments and try to say, "Oh, you can't come over here because you need a visa" or whatever. Should you not be able to go onto another piece of land just because they say you can't, that you need a special little approval. Thats bullshit. I have always had a problem with people saying or governments saying that they own land anyway. You only own that land because you say you do.

I'm not saying that we should get rid of all schools, jobs, etc. and have machines do everything. I'm only saying machines should do jobs that they are already ready to do, jobs that aren't really necessary either. Obviously things like farming would still have to be manned. People could actually do what they like to do, and get a job done at the same time, and yes, I know there are some jobs people don't like.

Your history teacher was one of a kind, I guess. I just know how mine and some others operate. They say things like everything they say is true. I witness this bullshit first hand. Students just believe whatever the teacher says.

ShackledEidolon

12-06-2002, 08:49 AM

Its a beautiful idea to live in Utopia but it doesn't exist anywhere that Im aware of. True you don't have to accept that a Governing body owns land but that will make little difference if they determine that you are trespassing and kill you. The reason the law is there is because Human nature demands it. We are violent we are greedy and we are consumers. Our government is little more then a creation of ourselves. Whatever flaws are seen in the government are really only reflections of flaws in our species.

If we went to a system without laws a true anarchy then we would indeed run into situations where more then one person lays claim to the same object...how will this be resolved? Most likely with violence and the person more capable of retaining their object will be the victor. So sets up the power scheme as it already exists.

Check out Plato's Republic and read about the Kallipolis to get an idea of what im talking about.

Good luck with it all

eon_blue

12-06-2002, 09:59 AM

This has to be one of the most interesting posts i have read so far, so i felt i had to contribute.

i forget who said it now, but some one mentioned how people aren't born as drones who are part of the 'system', but as they grow, they change and comform to this system. I have to say that i agree. I think that when we are younger our minds have not yet been 'modified' so that we think like everyone else. For example, (this is slightly an off the subject fact but i think it in someway relates to this topic) many children below the age of 7 have the ability to bend a spoon with their mind. Imagine that! the reason that they are able to do so is mostly because since they are young, boundaries have not been placed on their minds yet. The power of the mind is an amazing thing but since most people have conformed to the system, they have lost this power.

And another thought came to me while reading this thread. This thought had to do with autism. Autism is defined as the acceptance of fantasy rather than reality. but who's to say that it is fantasy and not the 'true' reality? Also with some people who are autistic, they have the inability to stereotype things. Saying that it is an inability seems to imply that it is a bad thing, but i disagree. wouldn't that be quite freeing for the mind not having stereotypes.

The point that i'm trying to make here (but i fear i am failing) is that we are made to adapt to this system since at a young age we are taught about steroetypes. but we are usually taught to not stereotype people. but in this system people conform and change themselves in order to fit a certain steroetype...

i know what i think, but expressing it with words is not a simple task so i hope i have made some sense..

LyingRealist

12-08-2002, 07:24 PM

I got what you meant eon_blue, and I agree.
I can honestly say Ive never seen or heard a baby judge somebody because of how they look and what they believe.
Unless that somebody is either taking their favourite toy away or scaring them, of course.

I read somewhere that babies don't focus on only this world/reality and they follow things around with their eyes that we can't see. We lose this ability because nobody else sees and acknowledges it when we are learning so we stop paying attention.

Basically we learn what is "real" and what isnt as we grow up.
If the adults say theres nothing there, then it isnt (naturally)

We are taught to label and name things from the moment we are born.

Yeah......

Microsoul

12-08-2002, 09:17 PM

And we are taught to hate, kill, etc. Most of the blame lies on the parents and government, as well as the media. If people can be taught just the oppsite then people won't go around killing others. How many people do you know do things just because of the law. Its more about whats right or wrong I think.

A Utopia doesn't exist because there is government everywhere. If there was a place that was going to not have government, lets say Montreal (because I want to go there ;)....would you move there?

hyeboy

12-09-2002, 08:54 PM

I see the topics have ventured of into every which direction here, from blaming Bush and the gang for where we are, to saying nothing is wrong at all.

First off, let me just say that this is not about government to me. That's easy stuff to say. Even the biggest idiot on Earth can tell you that political leaders suck, and that the tax man rapes you of every "fat ass dirty dollar", blah blah blah. Microsoul, I understand your frustration with them, but I REALLY don't think that our problems would end with just the disappearance of organized government because they are not the ones responsible for human behavior. It is not the government that makes us shoot each other, compete for the most expensive car, be preoccupied with fashion, or set male/female characteristics. WE DO THIS TO OURSELVES!!!!!! You CANNOT blame one thing or another in particular for this "hopeless fuckin' hole we call reality". It is a combination of status, gender roles, insecurity, greed, etc. The blanket of controlling layers we are under is thick and heavy. We carry the weight of it our entire lives, yet so few realize that the heat they are feeling is from being insulated within these invisible layers. For the few that DO stumble upon this discovery, it is a LONG and tedious process to clear all the blankets blinding you from the true and pure path.

If you find the reality we live in comfortable Cracker, that's fine. But I don’t exactly consider dysfunctional families, people jacked-up on Paxil, meaningless “art”, and distorted lies of our history as evidence of “progress for us as a species”. You seem to be taking the term “rules” literally, as in the speed limit, manslaughter, etc. When I say we are under rules, that means you have to listen to hip-hop because rock is out right now, you have to where Air Jordan shoes if you want to be somebody at school, you have to prove who’s the most mocho guy by fighting, etc. Think about what LyingRealist and Microsoul mentioned here. Look at the behavior of newborns and toddlers. There are no presumptions, they don't care who has the most expensive toy, they don't understand the difference between Nike clothes and those bought from K-Mart, they are not afraid or ashamed of being naked, they fear nothing, etc. All they know is the bare essentials to life. Eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom. Other than that, THERE ARE NO RULES! They explore, they are curious, they want to learn and discover, they have unconditional love, they have no prejudices, THEIR MINDS ARE FREE! But for some reason, as we grow up, we feel a need to imprison this freedom. Again, I'm not talking about the government. I mean a girl is taught right away that "ladies don't swear, and they have to appear neat, and they don't resolve disagreements with violence". Or, to be considered a success, you have to go to high school, followed by a college, resulting in a high paying job, marrying "the perfect" woman (which to these people means a woman who has followed the same path), save up a fortune, and retire. Anything less means you have seriously screwed up something along the way.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU’RE SAYING! Who started these rules, and why do we continue to follow them like deaf, dumb, and blind morons? Why do some people get so defensive when you threaten this path while others tend to drop their act all together? People I don’t know just totally change their personality when they see that I’m not interested in playing “the game”, just as Braydon was suggesting when you separate these people from the group they’re trying to fit in with. If this is such a comfortable reality, why do people feel it’s necessary to “play a role”? Why can’t they be themselves instead of being crucified for finding their own interests? When I come home from a hard day’s work, I like turning up the music, turning down the lights, and lighting a candle or two to relax. Now I’d probably be ridiculed beyond belief by most any “normal guy” out there because “that’s not a guy thing to do, that's gay”. Luckily, I don’t give two f**** about what Mr. “Tittieeeeeeeeees! Yeah! Show me your titties!” (as some guy at the last Tool concert I went to so eloquently asked a girl in the parking lot after the show) has to say. I do what I like, and I’m not going to change that stance because our current reality says that that’s not how guys are to behave. I don’t filter my likes and dislikes through our current perception of reality. I’ll endure what ever comes my way, and not retreat but rather insult people like that right back. I’m unplugged. If you choose to be a trained monkey, or a puppet on strings, that’s your business. If you are suffering from adult on-set retardation, that’s your problem. DON’T TELL ME I HAVE TO BE AS STUPID AS YOU!

Sorry, that was waiting a while to come out and is NOT directed at anyone on this thread. Ah, the trials and tests suffered by “the patient”!

Microsoul

12-09-2002, 09:49 PM

I completely agree with what you say hyeboy. I do think people underestimate the role that the government has on our lives as having to do with human behavior though. Prison does NOT help anyone get better, it just makes people not care who they hurt or what happens. They let people go who commit violent crimes but they put someone in jail for a long time for something like possesion of drugs. ITS A JOKE. Society is destoyed by design. Corporations deeply influnce the way people think also. People are meant to believe that you need money to be "cool" and fit in. People are not naturally assholes, they just learn to not use their brain and learn to follow.

I think people should really have the behavior of babies/toddlers because of the reasons you mentioned, and no I don't mean that people should act like idiots all the time.

The last thing I ever want to do is help support their system. People think that these "rules" dictate everything they do, but thats only if you choose to play their little game.

Braydon

12-13-2002, 05:40 PM

a funny thing the other day, i had just got a pair of old school converse all stars hi tops (Gym boots to some) anyway a person i know though a friend said to me "ha, those shoes suck look at them" and to follow that up the most orignal phase "there Gay". then he turn one of his friends and said "how gay are those shoes? ha ha ha" then his mate turned back and said "i think his shoes are cool" well shut him up didn't it.
this only proves that people dislike anything that not "cool".
After this being on my mind for a while i have come to the conclusion that people are stupid a person is smart, people just want to fit in don't ask me why but there do so they try to fit into sterotypes you look the youth, 90%of them fit into some kind of sterotype as people get older they stop caring look at really old people they don't try to be cool.Old people don't play the game.

Quiddity

12-13-2002, 09:06 PM

Skipping through these posts, I'm overcome with a sense of renewed, well, faith in humanity! Yay! People with great things to say, who aren't afraid to say them. How good. More from me, ASAP.

LyingRealist

12-16-2002, 03:39 AM

Every time I come back and check out the new posts I want to cry with joy.

It will take a while but my little plastic bottle island will be finished, and the new society will flourish.

If people were to just not accept whats "cool" and decided what they liked themselves we would not be having this discussion.
ANd heres something to bake your noodle, arent we all agreeing?
and what if we just all agreed because everyone else was?
and thereffore and so on.

We have to keep in mind that alot of people who like rap and other things like it because well, they like it.

I mean there had to be something there in order for people to decide they liked it first before it became the new thing.
The rest who go ooh its the new big thing we must listen!!!!
are the sheep and to tell the truth its hard to sepereate them.

So, real rap music lover or a sheep in homies clothing?
We may never know.

What if everybody decided they loved TOOL?
and it was the new big thing?
would we all be like bah!! sheep or would we think finally the recognition deserved?

Just reminding you that its not a US against THEM world
just a difference of opinion :)

Toad

12-17-2002, 08:06 PM

I try to think of myself as an open minded individual, and i enjoy listening to other people's point of view. The problem with this, is that not everyone is willing to have an open mind. I dont want to fall into an "us against them" category, but sometimes it seems like that.
I understand the need to belong, and a lot of other reasons people do the things they do, and I dont hate people, i just hate the things they do. It seems that a lot of people just really arent using their heads. What's really puzzling are the people that join "punk" crowds and things like that, toting non-conformity and all that other crap. Yet they all have the same leather jacket, the same hair spikes, etc etc. It's just another place to belong.
To get through life, I just try to do what makes me happy, and not rain on anyone elses parade. (God knows I hate it when people go out of their way to berate something I do, especially without good reason.) But it's difficult to do that when everyone around you is trying to prove something by acting to be something they really arent.

I dont know, i think i'm just ranting, but it's good to be here, to at least know there are others besides me.

LazyE462

12-20-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by LyingRealist
I got what you meant eon_blue, and I agree.
I can honestly say Ive never seen or heard a baby judge somebody because of how they look and what they believe.
Unless that somebody is either taking their favourite toy away or scaring them, of course.

I read somewhere that babies don't focus on only this world/reality and they follow things around with their eyes that we can't see. We lose this ability because nobody else sees and acknowledges it when we are learning so we stop paying attention.

Basically we learn what is "real" and what isnt as we grow up.
If the adults say theres nothing there, then it isnt (naturally)

We are taught to label and name things from the moment we are born.

Yeah......

LazyE462

12-20-2002, 10:44 AM

[QUOTE]You all call our society a prison, and say that Government restricts our ability to be free. You all seem to think this is a bad thing.

Yes, it is true that we aren't free due to the conformitist society we live in, but it is the ONLY way we have gotten this far as a species. Freedom and chaos are one in the same. Every cultural group of people in existance adhere to a set of rules, because all of the cultures that didn't destroyed themselves. If society wasn't so constraining we'd be out of control, like a bunch of spoiled toddlers.

And what is so great about freedom? once you are free, what are you going to do? Our society gives us enough freedom to avoid being slaves to the wage, and to express ourselves. We don't have to hunt for food, or skin animals for fur. If this is a jail cell, its a damn fucking comfortable one.

I feel that while we may be comfortable, the only way for humans to reach their full potential is by being vulnerable and take away that confort shell. The only way to do that is by being free and getting rid of the shackles that are placed on us, if you all "get my drift". I think his comment that freedom is no big thing and that cultures that didnt adhere to rules destroy themselves is erroneous. I think that destruction is part of nature. A brief science lesson if you will. There have been 5 major extinctions on this planet, i see that as a way of the planet "cleansing" itself and starting over, as nature goes in cycles as does many things in this world. So if getting rid of rules means destroying ourselves then so be it, not to be negavtive, but humans havent exactly been the best thing for the planet. Weve poisoned the waters, greatly damaged the air , and ther groud is rotting, and we can thank our technology for that. As Jim Morrison qouted "what have they done to our fair sister", we have royally screwed up this planet, so i think if the way humans do things now keeps up there would be another "cleansing" anyways.

Freedom in the sense of getting rid of the schackels means getting back in touch with nature. I know damn certain that animals, fish birds, plants dont have to adhere to a government, pay taxes, and work from 9-5. I think people must trust each other and beleive in each other wth this freedom and achieving it, because communcating and growing together would be the only way to survive without this "comfort" of our animals being skinned and prepared for us and whatnot. Please give me your thoughts on this.

tiki_god7

12-20-2002, 11:05 AM

I'm so glad I've stumbled across this thread. For so long I've been aware of this 'system' you've all been discussing but I've thought I was alone, or very rare for seeing it in a way that you guys do. I'm glad I've found a place to read people with idea's, their own idea's, pure idea's....

LazyE462

12-20-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by tiki_god7
I'm so glad I've stumbled across this thread. For so long I've been aware of this 'system' you've all been discussing but I've thought I was alone, or very rare for seeing it in a way that you guys do. I'm glad I've found a place to read people with idea's, their own idea's, pure idea's....

Yeah its good to see that there are others who think in such a pure manner, without the limits. You see Im in high school and there are very few people who even have a chance to think for themselves, or they are comfy with their friends. Im realy glad that my circle of friends (who also share these viewpoints for the most part) arent alone here. It can feel like its an "us against them" deal, but its not. You cant yell at people for not thinking for themselves and whatnot, because youu have to remember that they have been programmed and processed for years and years, they dont even have a chance. Ill bet the reason a lot of us had our awakening is because somewhere along the line the system failed us, and weve all endured our trials and pain, and we learned to think for ourselves through that. For many people the system "worked", and they are comfy. They arent even aware that their opinions are fed to them. Its really not their fault, but i personally feel its my job as someone who has had these epiphanies and awakenings (not to put myself in a higher place, were all equal), to try and get people to see things in a different light, get them to go down their own path. I cant just stand by and let this system warp peoples minds and do nothing. But i kknow who is at fault, the poeple are victims of crimes by our system.

"people are not going to rebel aganst not being free when they think they are!"
- Goethe

hyeboy

12-20-2002, 05:39 PM

Well, as starter of this thread, I have to say I'm quit astonished at what has transpired here over the past few weeks. Never in my wildest dreams did I anticipate this type of reaction. I just figured people would think I'm crazy, and move on to the next thread. But it has been a great comfort to know there are those of you out there that think this way as well, which is basically to think no way. You are completely opinion and judgement free. And in return, many of you have found joy stumbling upon this thread. (man, they should really have a chat room;) It appears as though it's been worth waiting it out, it's been worth being patient. For the loving embrace is the unity within the people on this thread!

You're absolutely correct about the "programmed" not realizing they're not thinking for themselves. This is what I' have been trying to say in several of my posts when the point comes up that I'm being hypocritical because I look down on these other people. "Huh? But I choose to be a gang banger!" Yes, but you're choosing from a menu the system provides you with to feast on. You are in THIS restaurant, and you will make your selection from THIS menu. "But what if I don't want Italian? What if I'm in the mood for Taco Bell?" Too bad! All your eating will be done here, and no other alternatives are allowed!

How about the Truman Show for those people that can't quit grasp the concept of The Matrix? Here is a man leading a "real" life that ends up being a complete facade! "A world within a world that is Sea Haven Island". How about Christoff's response when asked why Truman has never questioned his environment? "We accept the reality with which we are presented!" And that pretty much sums it up, folks. Everyone assume the world we're living in is the only way the world can be. So we go on living, oblivious to the program. Pretty sadening, don't you think?

jimmysGrudge

12-21-2002, 08:20 AM

hyeboy i understand you're only using the matrix as a relation to your view (hopefully not an explination) but i do hope that you realise that it's harder to understand and evaluate peoples positions and awareness than you've told me.
in matrix speak perhaps i'm saying you haven't been unplugged to marvel at it because there's either nothing to unplug from, no-ones plugged in, or you're still well and truly plugged in, hopelessly depentdant on your illusion of freedom. just more candy on a spoon.
i can relate to your feelings of contempt for the people calling you a psycho and telling you to shutup because you don't know what you're talking about when clearly it's they who don't know what you're talking about. but see that there's plenty going on there, they are rebelling against you, not necessarily to defend their world of ignorance.
the most ignorant people still have the same depth as the rest of us, they just haven't been there.
all i mean in short is that while you're unique, you're no different from the rest of us. and i think you're better off letting someone else draw that line for you if you're gonna leave it up to your ego. (don't let my mentioning of your ego imply that i think it's bloated) i'm just getting a vibe of you thinking you're better than the ignorant. you're to plenty as well i'm sure. as am i.
i hope you can take my view and realise that plenty of others also share it . i always hear "intellegint" people saying 'we're all taught to hate each other and to follow these rules and kill each other' well... i wasn't? surely 'we all' weren't. so why does that damn everyone who appears to have been?
this thread may be pleasing a lot of people but all i'm seeing (focusing on) is misplaced stepping stones. don't take the appearance of someone elses ignorance as a means of feeling better about the hard 'tedious' work you've put into you're apparent awareness.
it is good however to know that i can get away (hopefully) with this returned pointing of the finger becuase of the obvious open mindedness flowing through this thread.
cows say 'eat more chicken'

hyeboy

12-21-2002, 12:12 PM

jimmysGrudge:

Yes, I was merely using The Matrix as an explanation of reality, not of the song. Once I got that point across, I was simply trying to say how people that are unplugged feel here on Earth and how that applies to the patient.

This is for the sake of discussion, and not argueing, but how can you honestly say there's nothing to unplug from if you're a Tool fan? All there music is based in one way or another on letting go of the rules! The beginning of Third Eye, the Timothy Leary speech about think for yourself, what do you think the essence of that speech is all about? What do you think the entire point of Undertow was? "All I knew, all I believed, crumbling images that no longer comfort me.....I must leave it behind and come to a new place now....This ground is not the rock I thought it to be....Cleanse and purge me in the water".

I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that the way the world moves is correct? I SHOULD be trying to keep up with the neighbors materialisticaly? I SHOULD pick a religion, follow it blindly, and kill in the name of my particular God? I SHOULD think drinking and sex are all that matters? I'm hoping I got your point wrong somewhere! These other people who buy the shoes that Nelly was wearing in his latest video (see the 6th post on this thread by Microsoul), they're as deep and intellegint as me? Pardon me if this sounds arrogant, but that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Maybe I do come off sounding a bit "stuck-up", but if people can think they're better than me because they have a BMW 740, why can't I feel better than them because I think the opposite? All these people have the same potential to rise above the controlling devices of our reality. Problem is, it's a HUUUGGHH concept to grasp, and most of them can't handle it. Look how lazy people are! It's too difficult to raise a hand to flip the turn signal whey you're taking a right? WTF? Are you kidding me? And if I had a dime for every time I mentioned an odd thought and someone said "whoa, don't make me think", I'd have enough to get my own BMW!!!

We on this thread are sitting here analyzing life. What do most other people chat about? "So, Pam said that Cindy said that Amy said that Tom had told Steve that Ryan is cheating on Sarah!" Or "Did you see Jessica's new car? Oh my God, it is soooooooo cute!" Perhaps, "Dude, look at the rack on this bitch! Man I'd like to reem her ass!"

Come on, dude! You are seriously comparing the people on this thread to the rest of society? That is such a hugh insult. Here's a thought about how deeply we are programmed that is easy to comprehend: Humans are so closed minded, that every culture finds the things that other cultures do as disgusting, stupid, and insane because "WE" have the "right" way, and everyone else is fucked up. If that doesn't say it all, jimmysGrudge, then I don't know how to get through to you. When I say we're more intelligent, I'm not talking about book smarts. Book smarts amount to jack squat! Half of what you're taught are lies.

The world revolves around money, sex, and power right now, and you don't see anything wrong with this? You don't think we behave this way because we've been taught to do so since birth, generation after generation? Have you seen Soldier with Kurt Russel? Great movie about how far we can dehumanize ourselves, and the painful road back to feeling again. We live in a society where helping someone out is just merely asking to get your ass kicked. Either people start taking advantage of this, or it ends up getting you in trouble some how. People are ungrateful, selfish, ignorant assholes. And if I come off sounding arrogant because of statements like that, I'm sorry, but I'm sick of dealing with it. THAT'S what I think the entire point of "The Patient" is all about.

You should read Plato's alogory of the cave. Basically, he wrote the original screenplay for the matirx. Maybe putting it in the context that he put it in may help you see it a bit easier. Here is another excellent link of a college professor's assesment of the The Matrix:

http://www.cdicarlo.com/paper_01matrix.htm

I can try to explain it till I'm blue in the face (or in this case, till my fingers fall off), but like Morpheus said. "Unfortunately no one can be told what the matrix is. You have to see it for yourself!"

Braydon

12-22-2002, 05:10 PM

how do know when you have been "unplugged"? i mean really this whole matrix thing you got going seems foolish.
Sure it's a nice idea but if you look closely at what your saying hyeboy, that everyone is controlled by the system and are taught to follow these rules, to buy the best car, to get a great job or maybe TO SEE THE MOST HYPED UP MOVIE cough* the matrix* cough. It seems by talking about this movie endless, you are completing the task of the people you dislike the most, the people who create this system that all these people follow.
maybe you yourself haven't been "unplugged" as you call it.

Cryptoanarchist

12-24-2002, 05:30 AM

Here Here Hyeboy well said
I think you completely misunderstood that analogy Braydon but i cant explain it any better then whats already been tried.

I think in a way LyingRealists island is in this thread

Governments are here to keep order because people are stupid and need rules. But not everyones like that as we can see in this thread. Some people are smart enough to get by without rules but the masses still need to be told what to do. If more people were "unplugged" we could disband governments, get rid of armies, end war, do anything. "You will come to find that we are all one mind capable of all thats imagined and all conceivable."

Or is trying to make everyone the same just what hitler did?

Its nice to see that there are people who think the same way as me out there. Ive know many people with similar veiws on fads but not to this level. This is why i love tool.

LazyE462

12-24-2002, 08:07 AM

Qoute:"Governments are here to keep order because people are stupid and need rules"

I think that people are kept dumb and thats why you see the "stupid" behavior you see, these people dont get the chance to grow. They are bombarded with propganda, media, advertisements, billboards, TV, Radio, and they are kept comfortable with it. I think the biggest misconception is that we need any type of govt. However, I think that even though we may realize it, we are still pretty dependent on that system. Because we still eat our BACON and EGGS, and we DRIVE to WORK or SCHOOL,and we go home and WATCH TV (some of us may not). So while we may vehemtly hate the system, we still use it, im not sure myself how to turn that around.

hyeboy

12-24-2002, 12:14 PM

LazyE462:

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make! People don't realize that they're plugged in. And you're also absolutely right about the fact that regardless of your level of programming, we still need the system. I don't know any other way, either. (guess we'll have to wait for the sequal to The Matrix, huh? LOL!) I'm not saying we have to make some dramitic change, or that I don't want to make money. I'm just asking that people realize it's a system, and just like any program, some rules you can bend, some you can break. Understand the level of importance or unimportance of EVERYTHING in life by this new perception, not the value our "reality" has given it!!!

Braydon:

First of all, I'm 26 years old and have only been to a movie theater 2 times my entire life. Do not tell me I buy into hype. Secondly, the only way I even saw The Matrix was by fluke chance. I was at a buddies house and someone who works at Blockbuster came over with a copy and popped it in. I knew NOTHING about the movie before hand!!! Never seen a commercial, never heard anyone talk about it, NOTHING!!! My jaw dropped in amazement by the end of it. Much like a Tool album, it was too much to take in at once. I borrowed the tape from him and watched it at least 6 more times before he had to take it back. Every time I saw it, I picked up something I missed. Again, just like a Tool album. I refer to this movie a lot because most people are familiar with it, the dialogue is brilliant, and it most easily depicts what me and the others on this thread feel. It is a simplified version of the philosophies of many great thinkers, or so I thought. Apparently, some still have trouble grasping it.

Cryptoanarchist:

Thanks for the back up! Your comments basically display how different mind sets interperate the same things, just like we all do with Maynard's lyrics. I'm glad you came along so that I wouldn't be the only one saying "you're missing my point". I was getting a bit frustrated trying to rephrase the same thing a dozen times, here. No matter how many times I reiterate the same concept, I still get people like Braydon and jimmy'sGrudge that just don't get it. I'm not putting you guys down or bashing you in any way, shape, or form, but IF you understood what I TRULY meant, you wouldn't be making remarks like "these concepts are foolish", or "how do you know YOU'RE unplugged", etc. I guess it can't be explained. You just know it, through and through. Your perception of reality is clear, not clouded by traditions, customs, religions, or government. I thought I made that pretty clear through poetic as well as literal phrases. But alas, those that are not ready to be unplugged will have a hard time understanding no matter how you put it. Also, here are plenty Agent Smiths out there that will work hard to blind our now clear vision.

Final thoughts....

This is the last post I'm going to make on this thread. As starter, I feel it's time for me to end it. I have made my point over and over again as clearly as possible. Those of you who don't get it or think I sound arrogant, understand this: I never said I have the answers. I never claimed to be trying to lead anyone to the "right" path. All I asked was that you make sure YOU chose the path you're on, not your past, not your "peers", not your religion, and not your bad experiences. Be true to yourself. Question everything. The people you hang out with, how did they come to be your friends? What influenced your decisions on the clothes you wear, they way you treat others, etc. As a brilliant man once said, "Think for yourself, question authority"!

Those who get it, thank you for the enlightening discussions. I owe a debt of gratitiude. You have been a glimmer of hope for "the patient". I wish you all the best of luck on this tedious path you've chosen here. May your journey bring you peace and always remain in the light (sounds like all another famous person wanted. I think we celebrate his birthday tomorrow!!!)

If anyone wants to continue discussions on this subject or anything else (thanks to those who have already instant messaged me), I am often in the Yahoo! messnger tool chat room (under hyeboy) and in the MSN tool chat room (under aperson). I'd be delighted if you stopped in and maybe we can continue our journey there. But no more on this thread for me. I have said my piece. As I said before, "No one can be told what the matrix is. You have to see it for yourself!"

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE!!!!

LazyE462

12-26-2002, 08:35 AM

Maybe for christmas Ill get a jujitsu manual, hehe

jimmysGrudge

12-29-2002, 06:00 AM

hyeboy:

yes you seemed to have totally missed my point. i know things suck and people are ignorant but all i'm SUGGESTING is that maybe you're using your analogy of the matrix as a means of justifying your hatred for the people who try to pin down our creativity and freedom to explore our inner space.
"everybody's giving me shit and i refuse to believe it's my fault so all of them must be fucked." thats how it went for and you too i'd guess (guess).

i was (am) quite offended by your reply but i understand it's a simple misscommunication. thats usually how it goes. and i was most outraged by your questioning of my TooL-fan-ness... why do you get to decide what makes a TooL fan? i understand what you mean by TooL fans being the open minded ones who analyze and explore life by putting it into words that we understand (our own words i mean) but we're not the only ones. and trust me, we're in the same reality as everyone else, to suggest otherwise, in my opinion(opinion), is a major underestimation of everyones... abilities. insulting in fact.
"Come on, dude! You are seriously comparing the people on this thread to the rest of society? That is such a hugh insult."
i found that accusation insulting. i'm not just a TooL fan, i'm a member of society. members of society are TooL fans. i'm not here to insult anybody. it's insulting to hear the opposite suggested.

"I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that the way the world moves is correct? I SHOULD be trying to keep up with the neighbors materialisticaly? I SHOULD pick a religion, follow it blindly, and kill in the name of my particular God? I SHOULD think drinking and sex are all that matters? I'm hoping I got your point wrong somewhere!"
yes indeed you got it quite wrong if thats what you took from it. i don't understand how you got that from it at all. i might add that having a religion doesn't default you to following it blindly, i've found TooL to be pushing in the religious boundaries itself many times, and if you think it's peoples religions that they kill for then maybe(maybe) you have responsibilty issues. religion is a concept, it holds no sway if people take responsibility for their actions. try to understand that it just pisses me off when people blame religion for wars and killing etc. because then it gets turned on me (being obviously religious) and fingers get pointed and i try to remember when me and my religious family and friends killed people in the name of God... Did i develop a multiple personality and simply black out when i killed millions for my God? i guess i must have if thats what everyone tells me...

i'm obviously arguing with you in this reply but it's just to get at the truth, not to give you a come back you can't contend with. so please read and re-read before you dismiss this as another finger-pointing episode. i'm sure you can handle that.

i think it's simply that we have to realise there's more to life than we pay attention to, not that there's elements of life being hidden from us. take the responsibility. you've come far enough to see what you've seen, so take that as the proof that there is no matrix, just our own responsibilty to serach out the greater truths, everyone feels that at one point or another in their life, most times they just simply seem to ignore it. there's more people like you than you realise. half the poeple you ignorantly condemn are probably more unplugged than yourself.

i shouldn't have to tell you that there's no accusations here, just directions to look in, but a simple preconception would ruin that idea before you even knew i'd written this.

i believe the world has been built upon stones and after many years moulded into a land of conceptions. destroy these conceptions and you'll be able to biuld your own world.
the matrix is a concept. religion is a concept. materialism is a concept. etc. etc. forget about the concepts and focus on their meanings. that is life as i see it.

i thank myself for seeking out your viewpoint, you didn't shove it in my face, so no thanks to you. but i do hope i've helped in some way.

we all know this is just my opinion.

preacher

01-06-2003, 11:02 AM

"we can have machines that take over jobs"

hmm, isn't that sort of building a foundation for THE MATRIX ?

preacher

01-06-2003, 11:16 AM

This has definitely been the most interesting thread on the site in my opinion. This will be short and sweet since you all hit a lot of many great points.

I just turned 27 on the 3rd of January. For the last 10 years I've struggled with feeling the way we all feel. Like an outsider almost. I was in Las Vegas for new years eve and something came to my attention while I stood and watched 300,000 drug people, shoulder to shoulder on the Vegas strip. Quite honestly it was just the simple fact that all those people came to celebrate a new year, a new beginning. It was mad kaos really, but it was also harmonious at the same time.

I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, I hold the opinion that religion causes a seperation of people. But it's an opinion. I have had a really hard time accepting this reality. I used to get into debates with christians all the time about reality. I've stopped because the simple fact of the matter is, reality is reality, and religion is opinion. Nobody wins those arguements. It doesn't change my opinion of it, I'm just more at peace with my views if I accept that certain people need to be controlled in order to have their own freedom.

Anyway, the system is always going to be there, everybody has their own way of dealing with it. But yes, we must keep reminding ourselves =)

Live your life to it's fullest, be happy. Life is too short to worry about how others view the world. That's the secret to my freedom I think.

Lamb&Martyr

01-10-2003, 08:11 PM

Good thinking. Although I can relate to what you mean when other people think you're crazy and/or dangerous for thinking freely, I think that most of those who just accept what is given to them to eat are stuck in the mindframe that depends on the "system".
"Yes! I truely believe if people really want to be free and live in peace then we would abandon any and all governments. This is the only way to be free and live in peace! We will be free from most of the problems that face us if we do this."
I agree with this, to a degree. Without governments, there is chaos. No rules, no limitations. But with this freedom comes responsibility. Let's take killing for instance. When one human being commits murder and there is no government, what then? It's cool? Shit, we'd have people walking around living in fear for their entire lives. But if people knew that it is wrong to harm another and to understand the concepts of karma and doing unto others, I can see where this would be fathomable.
And how would you truly escape the "prison" if you are still surrounded by it?

Cryptoanarchist

01-12-2003, 11:25 PM

True if there wasn't a government it is likely we would see chaos. But i think the question is why? Most people would be glad to do what they know is right and just get on with life. But we cannot get rid of Authority completely until EVERYONE is like this or things will just fall apart. Its a pitty people cant just trust each other. Anarchy doesnt always mean chaos though. There are tribes that exist without a government and get on fine.

Ris3n_Da3mon

01-14-2003, 04:48 AM

I just finished reading everything in this thread AND damn there seems to be a damn good discusion of philosiphy here i as soon as i take everything i just read in i hope to make a post of my own.....But i just wanted to say, like others, I'm glad to have found this. A discusion where many people are discussing something that seems to looked over by most of our society, And that is that We have been brought up a certain way and most seem to never question that.

preacher

01-14-2003, 11:01 AM

"All good things are wild and free" - Henry David Thoreau

Nardpet

01-28-2003, 09:21 PM

Sorry to bump a 2 week old thread, but if you all haven't seen Fight Club yet, do yourself a favor. I'm sure most of you have but its worth it if I get even one person to watch it for the first time.

forkedpath

01-28-2003, 09:54 PM

ive read nearly this entire thread. and there are many areas where i agree or disagree, too many to reply to all of them here. one thing id like to say about it, though, is that really it is all up to you how you proceed through this waking moment.

people, just like any other ant hill, fill different niches to make it all work. some people find comfort in not filling such a niche, sitting back and observing and questioning why others do. while others are completely content to continue whatever small part they do to make all we consume, use, and thus learn from, possible.

the reality, now thats hard to tackle, because our realities are relative. actual reality could only be seen from a third point perspective, outside of this world. there is really very little reality within our individual lives...only what we believe it to be, or make it to be.

personally, ive always thought that the patient was about tool itself, and their 'tedious path' they trod to bring us different points to ponder, as well as some damned good music. you think about how much of their personal time (not that touring and such isnt necessarily personal time/enjoyment, but) just to allow people to hear it live? until any of us are met with the troubles that come with notoriety, the public eye, and separation from loved ones...we can only try to sympathize, and surely not empathize.

Thetics

02-02-2003, 10:30 PM

If Utopia exsisted then what is Utopia? Ill admit ive just recently began picking at my mind, and Im learning something new every day, Tool has opened my eye like no other. Im not sure if anyone has said this yet but... has anyone thought that this song could even relate to suicide? I really admire the words chosen for this song because much like every other song that maynard writes, it leaves the "user" to choose their own paradigm and go with it. leaving only one true meaning behind it all, hense leaving us the choice of individuality. I admire those who know the true meaning of everything, i hope one day i can rise to that level but for now, i must "be patient" if u will.. and try and keep my eye open.

P.s. i relly enjoy reading your posts, fuel for the mind. Really inspiring at times, keep it up fellows. Oh and im knew :) .iH

Thetics

02-02-2003, 10:48 PM

i take back my opinion about the meaning of the song, reasons are as followed. I had the fortunate privlage to attend the last show of the lateralus tour which was at the Long beach arena in long beach, and i just rememberd something maynard said before or after The Patient. He said something along the lines of "You know sometimes you do something for so long you forget the reasons why you are doing it and you begin to lose hope and begin to forget, then you come to a place like this... *long pause* and youre instantly reminded again" It didnt click to me at first, but then i remembered this part of the song "I must keep reminding myself of this". So maybe the song is actually more blunt than it seems, maybe its about maynard giving up... tool, music, his cause... and heres some food for thought... what if we are the "vampire" I might be off, what do you guys think?

forkedpath

02-03-2003, 12:08 AM

thetics:

ya see, thats what i was saying at the end of my post, not necessarily that we are the vampire, but if we were, that we werent getting the sustenance we should from our sanguine feast...that the song was about tools arduous journey they keep up for the sake of good music and good people. they played this song at a show in new orleans...and maynard changed his pronouns along so that if there were nothing to gain, "WE certainly would have walked away", and they still may.

theres a theory sociologists use to describe human interactions and relationships, called the norm of reciprocity...basically, you scratch my back, and ill scratch yours. if one scratcher slacks off, the scratchee will slack off accordingly, or perhaps get bored and go looking for something or someone that scratches better.

while, i certainly cant say distinctly what tool is wanting to accomplish by doing their work, id like to think it were something along the lines of absorbing the possibilities, looking past what the world would have you see, and seeing whats really there when you strip away all the social decoration...and somehow through this, seeing yourself and how you relate to it all, or perhaps how you could.

theyve always stayed out of the light, have they not? they dont want pedastel adoration, they want introspection on the part of their fans, and to enjoy what they do. lots of people listen to tool, just to listen to tool...while this isnt necessarily a bad thing, its like zoning out during class while you might need to be taking notes.

no matter what though, YOU are the one who opened YOUR eye, and you are capable of seeing all that you allow yourself to see. tool just gave you some pointers.