Judith, and why this song still works.

[ObviousParadox]

This is just for discussion, but its something I've been thinking a lot about lately after listening to this song over and over. It just seemed so odd (as other people have also pointed out) that this beautiful song could be written about the same person as Judith. But, I felt some desire to reconcile the differences, and I went back to dissect Judith and 10kdays and juxtapose them. Here's some of what I came up with.

As fas as I see it, Judith is a song about blind faith (confirmed in interviews). But its more complex than that. Maynard seems to be singing about "How can you still believe in a God when you just had a stroke and are now in a wheelchair for the REST of your life?" In judith he sings "its not like you killed someone. its not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side (referencing the guard who stabbed Jesus in the side to check if he was dead)". He's saying "I would understand bad things happening to you if you were a terrible person, God would punish you, etc. but you are one of the most true and faithful Christians I know, so its bullshit". Its not just blind faith, there's a hint of "fuck it if he does this to you". anger. And yet in 10kdays, though he sings beautifully about how his mother was one of the only people to actually live up to Christian ideals (as opposed to "the collective judas") there is still that slight anger (shake your fists at the gate), but in the mourning process, he seems to be seeing it from her point of a view a bit more (i only pray heaven knows when to lift you out... you're going home). To me, it makes more sense when viewing Judith as an angry at "why do you still believe after this has happened to you" instead of a "you're a fucking moron" song. Just some thoughts. Even though I use "he's saying" or stuff like that, I don't think its fact, just some of my thoughts on the subject. What do you think?

[OG-Whoop]

I've seen a few posts now with people comparing _Judith_ to the themes in _10,000 Days_.

I'm surprised that more people don't make a connection with Lateralus in this instance.

_Lateralus_ never really made a whole lot of sense for me up until now. When it came out I was buried under a thousand things so I didn't even bother to check in here and see what other people thought of it.

However, now that I've heard _10,000 Days_ -- and when I consider it along side a track like _Judith_, it makes a whole hell of a lot of sense.

The whole record is about coming to terms and accepting someone or something for who or what they are. It starts off with someone proud of the fact that there is bad blood in the relationship and builds, up through Schism where he's saying he knows the relationship worked before, but now that it's fucked up he doesn't know how to put it back together.

I always felt Parabol/Parabola was an exploration of sexual themes, but it strikes me now as more of an exploration of mother and child and faith.

It also strikes me that there is very little, if any foul language on Lateralus. This could be a tribute to his mother's sensibilities as if to say - "see, I can do it this way, too."

So when you take into account that there was a reconcilliation there, it makes perfect sense for Maynard to be affected by his mother's death and still be able to see her side of things.

Not only is he affected by his mother's death, but he is outraged at the people around her who claim to have faith and believe as she did but they are nothing but a pale shadow of the ideals she held. It's in his mistrust of these people and their false divinity that he finds the seeds of faith she planted in him and uses them to ensure she completes her journey.

It doesn't mean he's become a Christian. It means he's strong enough to give her what she deserves.

[MorfiusX]

I see it similar to the above. I didn't really see Judith as anger towards his mother, but more anger toward God for having done this to her and not understanding why.

The whole attitude of Wings in my opinion is a recognition that yes his mother has passed, but she damn well earned her place in heaven by being that unwaivering pillar of faith that so many people falsly try to achieve. Through this she has affected him more than he originally knew and in some ways, he now understands a small piece of God's plan.

[Blanket_509]

I think the tone is not so much that she earned her place in heaven, but that regardless of whether or not her beliefs were true or even rational, the fact that she believed in something so strongly earned her the right to finally rest in the place she so strongly believed in. In other words, your beliefs may not be any more right or rational than mine, but if that's what you choose to believe, and if you truly adhere to that belief throughout life, then damn it you deserve to fully realize that belief in death.

To me, an angel's wings seem to be the ultimate token of realization of the Christian goal.

[Zarathustra]

^Except for the whole part where God tortures those who choose to not believe in him in hell for all eternity. That's why I could never believe in christianity. It's like the ultimate being in the universe is shallow enough to torture people forever cause they dont see things his way? Thats the most childish and sickest thing ive ever heard. God himself is no better than those radical muslims.

[ObviousParadox]

This is not a religious discussing, and christians don't think those who don't belive are going to hell. at least the sensible ones dont.

[Blanket_509]

Zarathustra, your comment seems to have nothing to do with what I wrote, did you intend to reply to my post?

[bellamadia]

I think the tone is not so much that she earned her place in heaven, but that regardless of whether or not her beliefs were true or even rational, the fact that she believed in something so strongly earned her the right to finally rest in the place she so strongly believed in. In other words, your beliefs may not be any more right or rational than mine, but if that's what you choose to believe, and if you truly adhere to that belief throughout life, then damn it you deserve to fully realize that belief in death.

To me, an angel's wings seem to be the ultimate token of realization of the Christian goal.

Agreed, I think it's very clear... the clearest song from this CD yet. Those that think this is a contradiction to Judith are very mistaken. It's a progression of his thoughts in dealing with what happened to his mother. First anger and denial, then acceptance. Not to say he has found God, but accpetance as mentioned above basically.

[Zarathustra]

I took the last part of your post as meaning something else. Sorry I grew up in a reformed presbyterian envirorment. Im a little bitter about hell and damnation lol. I will admit most every day christians are not like that though.

[bellamadia]

This is not a religious discussing, and christians don't think those who don't belive are going to hell. at least the sensible ones dont.

I can't speak for all denominations of Christianity here, just a couple that I know well, but you are incorrect in saying this. Catholics DO believe that if you do NOT believe in God and Jesus as your savior, who resurected from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the father... blah blah, then you ARE going to hell.

[Alcawhorlick]

Agreed, I think it's very clear... the clearest song from this CD yet. Those that think this is a contradiction to Judith are very mistaken. It's a progression of his thoughts in dealing with what happened to his mother. First anger and denial, then acceptance. Not to say he has found God, but accpetance as mentioned above basically.

True, that's what I've been trying to say. People call me a *** and tell me to stfu, maynard is apologizing for saying naughty things about god and jesus!!!

It's an extension of judith. Is it just me, or do a few parts of Wings pt. 2 still contain some now more restrained anger?
Seems to me that the part where he says "bold suggestion" "should you see your makers face tonight, look in in the eye" etc.
Are people totally missing that part?
He might as well have said "look him in the eye, look him in the eye, and tell him. It's not like I killed someone, it's not like I drove a spiteful spear into his side"

You'd think all these people that love this song could understand it if someone like myself who skips the song half the time can.

Unless I'm wrong.

[ObviousParadox]

You'd think all these people that love this song could understand it if someone like myself who skips the song half the time can.



elaborate. why do you skip it?

[Alcawhorlick]

elaborate. why do you skip it?

because I dont like it.

[SagEarthDragon]

True, Keenan is saying goodbye to his mother and saying that you had better in your wings. I think he feels that she truly will, but to satisfy his and her own curiosity he tells her to look this maker in the eye and tell him that I did no wrong.

There's total belief in his mother, not total faith in her own creed. So he's also asking her as a guardian spirit to show him some truth. Because I think the most burning yearning question in his mind is "Mother, is he real? And will you stand your ground?"

******by the way, that two segment orchestra of Wings was so moving. I think I levitated. haha

[pjfan]

I don't think he's a christian by any stretch but perhaps he's hopeful her faith was actually accurate and she's enjoying the fruit of her labours. Because if she was wrong she suffered in silence for nothing when she could have said "fuck it".