I find it somewhat ironic that United 93 comes out shortly after Vicarious hits.

[Jughead]

Do you think that Vicarious could be applicable to the future release of "United 93"? This may sound crazy but I have been thinking about the direction of entertainment lately. I mean, who the fuck authorizes the production of these films. I realize that the families of all of the victims signed off on the production of the film. However; art (drama) is not history. I don't enjoy the mixing of the two in the context of this film. To be honest, it is painful. And I don't want some bullshit inspirational story either. I don't believe in censorship but I would appreciate someone in the entertainment business to show a little decency. I am also sure their are a lot of people who would like to see this movie. But they are the idiots that the lyrics speak of. I do enjoy seeing death and whatnot on television and the theater but only in a fictional sense. Imagination to create death on paper is creativity at it's finest. However; actual events that result in loss of life are not progressive and should not be glorified on TV. I think we should all be able to distiungish between fiction and reality. But, then again, there are a lot of really stupid people out there. This is my first thread, so be nice. Its okay cuz I got flame repellent!

[KingSigy]

Hm, good points. I don't think Tool may have intended it this way, but it does apply. Maynard is obviously pissed over such hateful media, so I can see him taking a dislike to "United 93".

[drastic]

I think this is a perfect example. I too was unpleasently surprised to see the trailer for this movie. They should donate all of the proceeds from this film to charity; that would be the only way for it to redeem itself. The producers may claim it's about not forgetting the victims, but this is purely exploiting them.

[Jughead]

I think this is a perfect example. I too was unpleasently surprised to see the trailer for this movie. They should donate all of the proceeds from this film to charity; that would be the only way for it to redeem itself. The producers may claim it's about not forgetting the victims, but this is purely exploiting them.


If I am not mistaken, I believe a good portion of the procedes will go to charity of maybe even the families. I will take a look.

[Jughead]

It appears that there are a lot of people asking this question. I couldn't find the answer but the movies homepage has a link to make donations to a flight 93 memorial fund.

[GeorgeinNY]

Obviously you have not seen Bloody Sunday. Why dont you find out something about the movie and the director before you come to conclusions?

[Ming]

Hardly ironic at all, sadly.

[Xariable]

I think its ironic that its being released in time for the 2006 elections.

[Jughead]

It doesn't matter what is in the movie. It matters that recent history is depicted as drama. Fuck that! I don't need someone to recreate what happened on the plane in order to get my rocks off. But, someone else obviously does. These jokers are what the song talks about.

[laxxx3204]

I'm with GeorgeinNY. I doubt any of you have any idea how anything in this film will be portrayed, and while this really has nothing to do with Tool anymore, I think it's worth discussing. I don't understand how you can call this exploitative. I'm sure everyone in this forum paid money to see Pearl Harbor when it came out, and it doesnt really matter if you didnt. Nobody threw a fit about that movie. Now, Michael Bay, the retard behind such "films" as the Bad Boys movies, didnt even take the time to make it a quality film, all it turned out to be was a movie of glorified violence and special effects. Now, from what I've heard about United 93, the creators understand the sensitive subject matter and have taken appropriate steps to make sure it's a high quality film. Of course they're doing it to make money, anyone who makes a film and says they arent is lying. But that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed to touch the subject matter. I'm sure they understand that many people wont see it because it hasn't even been 5 years since it happened, but I for one am looking forward to it very much. I dont see films like this as exploitation, basically it's just extremely high-quality subject matter that has the potential to be a fantastic film. Stop reading too much into it.

[f00b]

I'm with GeorgeinNY. I doubt any of you have any idea how anything in this film will be portrayed, and while this really has nothing to do with Tool anymore, I think it's worth discussing. I don't understand how you can call this exploitative. I'm sure everyone in this forum paid money to see Pearl Harbor when it came out, and it doesnt really matter if you didnt. Nobody threw a fit about that movie. Now, Michael Bay, the retard behind such "films" as the Bad Boys movies, didnt even take the time to make it a quality film, all it turned out to be was a movie of glorified violence and special effects. Now, from what I've heard about United 93, the creators understand the sensitive subject matter and have taken appropriate steps to make sure it's a high quality film. Of course they're doing it to make money, anyone who makes a film and says they arent is lying. But that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed to touch the subject matter. I'm sure they understand that many people wont see it because it hasn't even been 5 years since it happened, but I for one am looking forward to it very much. I dont see films like this as exploitation, basically it's just extremely high-quality subject matter that has the potential to be a fantastic film. Stop reading too much into it.

i bet its not as good as cliffhanger.

[Jughead]

I'm with GeorgeinNY. I doubt any of you have any idea how anything in this film will be portrayed, and while this really has nothing to do with Tool anymore, I think it's worth discussing. I don't understand how you can call this exploitative. I'm sure everyone in this forum paid money to see Pearl Harbor when it came out, and it doesnt really matter if you didnt. Nobody threw a fit about that movie. Now, Michael Bay, the retard behind such "films" as the Bad Boys movies, didnt even take the time to make it a quality film, all it turned out to be was a movie of glorified violence and special effects. Now, from what I've heard about United 93, the creators understand the sensitive subject matter and have taken appropriate steps to make sure it's a high quality film. Of course they're doing it to make money, anyone who makes a film and says they arent is lying. But that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed to touch the subject matter. I'm sure they understand that many people wont see it because it hasn't even been 5 years since it happened, but I for one am looking forward to it very much. I dont see films like this as exploitation, basically it's just extremely high-quality subject matter that has the potential to be a fantastic film. Stop reading too much into it.

I am not reading too much in to it buddy. I also realize that I don't have to see the movie if I don't want to. I am more or less trying to figure out why glorification of ugly historical events is so stimulating to us. They sure as hell aren't making a movie about the restoration of World Trade Center. This is obviously because it won't make any money nor would it be cool to create or watch. Their is a demand for this type of film. We have seen it happen over and over. Pearl Harbor, Titanic and Munich are just a few. All I am saying is that I am stimulated by films like Kill Bill and Snatch (just to name a few) which are the products of senseless and fictional violence. On the other hand, Joe Schmo says to himself "Oh man, 9/11, I got to go see that shit!" You can go all the way back to Johnny Tremaine. People got off to that too. The driving force for entertainment will always be the people who watch and read it. Therefore; it is the entertainer's responsibility to decide what he thinks is decent or not. Obviously, there is no moral threshold that writers will not cross. I hope you go see it Lax, but one of two things are going to come out of it. You will A) Be entertained by glorification of your fellow citizens cruel death. or B) Interpret the story as fact and feel "inspired" by the "heart of the american spirit" (I am sure you won't do this, but there are a lot of idiots who do this sort of thing). I am sure you feel different, but I just don't see this as art. It is historical fiction (that took place five fucking years ago) at best.

[Jughead]

This reminds me of a few other things that bother me in entertainment.

1. Cable boxes with parental locks. Let me be the first to say that if your kids can't watch what comes on your television, then you shouldn't be allowed to watch it either. I realize that kids are highly impressionable, but that doesn't mean that loonie adults aren't impressionable either. I actually buy into freudian thought, but I also buy into the fact that parents feel compelled to shelter their children from violent art, while at the same time watching the shit. So hypocritical. I am absolutely sure that my kids will not be loons because I won't be the idiot parent creating rules that prevent the child from being more like myself. Neglect is the reason that kids are fucked up. There is Built to Spill song that says, "You can't trust anyone, because you are untrustable". This is along the same lines as what I just spoke of. People are disgusted with themselves so they project their feelings into rules for someone else. Who else is easier to control than your children?

2. Dumbass rappers who glorify the way that they grew up. 50cent has however many bullet holes in his body. This makes him proud so he tells your kids about it. If I find out my kid is listening to 50cent we will have an extensive convo as to how this music has no application to his or her life. Again, plays on the neglect card. This song means a lot to me because sometimes I feel like I am the only person in the world that has never been overwhelmingly influenced by the entertainment that is of no conscequence. Blink 182 fans that have mohawks, lil john fans who wear jerseys that are as long as dresses, and hippies with fucking dreads are just a few examples of people applying the art the witness to their own life. BE YOUR FUCKING SELF! I listen to tool and dress like a prep. Dress is not the only signal. Attitude is another. Take vegans for example. How many vegans stopped eating meat because they didn't like the way it tastes. I would venture to say less than half (but have no proof). Alternative hypotheses include having parents that were vegans (so the rule was forced) or they met someone in their travels that they admire and decided to simulate their actions.

I am not sure why I used this board to vent, but I think the song "Vicarious" had something to do with it. Instead of creating an impression on me, the song shares a common belief with me which is important to my argument.

Biologist= most rational people in the world

[laxxx3204]

Ya jughead, im pretty sure your second response had nothing to do with this post. and to your first, if you have trouble seeing film as art, look past the subject matter. it doesnt even matter in that respect. for a film to be art it doesnt matter what it's about, but how it's made. now im not saying this because this film is art, because nobody's seen it yet. and making only films with "decent" subject matter is just censorship. get off you pedistal and join the human race.

[Jughead]

I can see we aren't going to get anywhere with this. I am on a pedestal because the rest of the human race are fucking imbeciles. Anyways, I don't really think I am better than anyone, I just think I am less trendy than everyone. Atleast we didn't blow each other like the people in the decoy threads.

[holotrope]

I take your point, I'm not sure if the song was written with any specific thought given to United 93, especially since it hasn't been released yet.

Your later point

I am more or less trying to figure out why glorification of ugly historical events is so stimulating to us. They sure as hell aren't making a movie about the restoration of World Trade Center. This is obviously because it won't make any money nor would it be cool to create or watch.

makes a lot of sense, and is more what I think the song is about. The point is that violence sells, that selling it keeps the masses focused on a common enemy, and that people eat it up. Remember Orwell's "1984"- everything was fine as long as everyone believed in a common enemy.

In a sense, United 93 could contribute to/partake of the sensationalism that has surrounded world events since sept 2001, but not necessarily, so I wouldn't pass judgement until I've seen it. What I will say is that it is guaranteed box office success from all the people who sat in their living rooms watching the real tragedy unfold, and haven't yet got their fill.

In another sense, we can just see United 93 as the outcome of a greater issue that is addressed in 'vicarious'- our desire to watch violence and identify enemies so that we can stand on ideological platforms leads to a bunch of yelling and screaming between people, but does NOT lead to any action motivated by those ideologies.

The polarization of perspectives on the war in iraq, bush's presidency, etc. gave a lot of people a lot of strong opinions. Some people watched soldiers die to support their perspective, others kept count of how many innocent iraqis were killed. But very few did anything else, aside from finding people who shared their perspective, and bitching about/marching against those who didn't.

This song is not only pointing out the problem, but illustrating quite powerfully that inaction is the worst enemy of progress. Because we all turn on the news and either cheer or boo the events, and then get a snappy bumper sticker with our opinion on it, we feel like we've established our position. The song seems to say that unless we stop living vicariously and start actually living out what we believe, we cannot (or don't care enough to) influence the sort of change we say would like to see in the world, and we should "just admit it".

[spiiiral]

i understand what you're saying..i think united 93 is supposed to be portrayed as glorifying how brave the passengers were for standing up against the terrorists.

allegedly, that is.

i, personally, dont even think that there was a flight 93. cell phones dont work on airplanes, period. no, they dont. NO, they dont.

youtube.com. search for 'loose change'. 2 cents.

my opinion aside, i think the media thinks we are docile enough to accept such indecency. mostly because..we've done nothing to prove them wrong.

edit:

yeeea..forgot to mention the song.

i appreciate the message of the lyrics, but personally think theyre too simple.

just my opinion.

good for a radio single, though

[prometheus jones]

Real quick. While I don't think that the song is pertaining to the Flight 93 movie, I do think that TOOL doesn' believe the "official" 9/11 story. In fact, I would go out on a limb and say that they believe that our government was directly involved with 911. I am not calling them conspiracy theorists, I am only stating that they know that the "official" story is not the truth and deep down most of you who think for yourselves know it to be a LIE as well. Why can't we just admit it? Turn off your TV and try to be yourself...things will become more clear when you have taken this step.

The powers that be want Armageddon
A smile is like the Apocalypse
It is a self-fulfilling prophecy
divide and conquer
control all and everything
end is nearer....


www.whatreallyhappened.com

[BDT]

I dont believe the U.S. goverment had anything to do with 9/11 just the people who live here.

[FireWakizashi]

This is interesting, becuase we could also look at this in a different light.
Vicarious is also about emphathizing, something that many of us do very little of. We witness these terrible events through the media, but it doesn't often affect us personally, and therefore we shrug it off with minimal thought. A grandpa died trying to save his grandchildren from a strong undertow? Sad, one might say, how terrible... But to imagine, to feel, to understand the emotion and the act itself is something entirely different. It should move you, overwhelm you with feelings. This is empathizing.
9/11 was a terrible incident, a powerfully moving event which could be seen as uniting us in national grief. It took something that drastic, that huge, to wake us all up, and only for a short moment.

This movie, if done well, could allow us to see what it was truly like to have been on that plane. Media can portray emotion quite well, you just need to comprehend the information correctly. Nonetheless, some portion of the movie's income better be donated.

[praefector]

nothing in this thread is ironic except the horrid use of the word "ironic"

tool wrote a song about the public's longstanding desire to live vicariously through the pain and pleasure of others...

how this leads us to expect anything other than more personal tragedies becoming available for consumption i dont understand

i think "fitting" may have been the word you were searching for.

[ID-entity]

This thread is full of long responses. Go to a political site if you want to talk politics. I didnt realize that when Tool finally released a political "single" (not that they havnt ever done a political song before) there would be a thread dedicated to everyones personal bullshit politics in relation to a fucking MOVIE! AHHHH...now I have a fucking headache. Go to Foxnews.com and bog down thier forum with meaningless political banter. Otherwise I agree with the overall thought out meaning of the song. Just hate that we have to talk about a stupid movie profitting off the death of people to get down to meaning of Vicarious.

[Jughead]

nothing in this thread is ironic except the horrid use of the word "ironic"

tool wrote a song about the public's longstanding desire to live vicariously through the pain and pleasure of others...

how this leads us to expect anything other than more personal tragedies becoming available for consumption i dont understand

i think "fitting" may have been the word you were searching for.

Yea, I think I may have use the term "ironic" a little too liberally in this scenario. Perhaps my thread title should have been "Can Vicarious be applied to new movie United 93?"

Also, thanks for your post guys. And as for you Identity... Does it really matter if their is a political discussions on this board? I mean the song does incorporate itself into politics, right? Atleast it is better than another decoy thread. I am proud to say that I didn't waste my words in one single "decoy" thread. Atleast the responses in the topic aren't. "God, what a fuckin idiot." or "All of you will realize there is no decoy on May 2nd". I must have read a thousand of the same ignorant posts.

[Garguantua]

This thread is full of long responses. Go to a political site if you want to talk politics.

How about you stop browsing forums if your reading comprehension does not allow you to understand more than one sentence.

There are books that contain the words "See Dick run..." You might enjoy those more.

[bitter_enigma]

[QUOTE=ID-entity]This thread is full of long responses. Go to a political site if you want to talk politics.

Southern accent: "What you readin' for?"
:)

[ID-entity]

How about you stop browsing forums if your reading comprehension does not allow you to understand more than one sentence.

There are books that contain the words "See Dick run..." You might enjoy those more.

Thats a really good book! But seriously, sorry if I came off harsh. I was really drunk when I posted that. It just irks me when people start waxing political and spout conspiracy theories. I suppose though if Tool gets people to think about that kind of stuff then theyve done thier job.

[Jughead]

see... this isn't such a bad thread after all.

[ID-entity]

Yeah...this thread was a lot easier to grasp sober.

[jack_shit]

Art imitates?

[Jughead]

Yeah...this thread was a lot easier to grasp sober.

I'll hit up one of your threads later this week when I am shitfaced!

[ID-entity]

I'll hit up one of your threads later this week when I am shitfaced!

OK.

[spiiiral]

Real quick. While I don't think that the song is pertaining to the Flight 93 movie, I do think that TOOL doesn' believe the "official" 9/11 story. In fact, I would go out on a limb and say that they believe that our government was directly involved with 911. I am not calling them conspiracy theorists, I am only stating that they know that the "official" story is not the truth and deep down most of you who think for yourselves know it to be a LIE as well. Why can't we just admit it? Turn off your TV and try to be yourself...things will become more clear when you have taken this step.

The powers that be want Armageddon
A smile is like the Apocalypse
It is a self-fulfilling prophecy
divide and conquer
control all and everything
end is nearer....


www.whatreallyhappened.com


i commend you fine sir :D

[spiiiral]

How about you stop browsing forums if your reading comprehension does not allow you to understand more than one sentence.

There are books that contain the words "See Dick run..." You might enjoy those more.



....marry me?

[bales]

i don't think your interpeting the song correctly in your comparison. you are assuming tool is condemning these people for living vicariously through the tragedy they see on tv. maybe what they are saying that it is human nature to do so, but the problem is we PRETEND not to. they say its a horrible tragedy, unthinkable. yet like nascar, they cannot look away. you don't want to admit you are entertained by human suffering, so long as its not you suffering. look back to ancient rome, ancient greece, ancient egypt.. hell virtually all cultures throughout history - tragedy attracts us. period. to deny this is to deny being human.

also, i remember reading in an article on fark.com that universal is donating 10% of all profits from the movie to charity. greedy assholes.

[kheldar80]

anybody here have Showtime on demand.. watch Penn and Tellers Bullshit Episode 4 from season 4 about Ground Zero. About how for almost 5 years now we have been in a political Circus about what to do with the area. Theres some messed up stuff going on. also i cant remember off hand who said it but it was said that the United 93 movie is a great thing because its keeping the memory fresh in our minds. while it seems like the government is just trying to sweep it under the rug and forget about it. great example is the Ground Zero situation.
Anyone Else See This Episode?

[elevation]

Believe me, the last thing this government wants to do is forget about 9/11 and "sweep it under the rug."

[kheldar80]

Believe me, the last thing this government wants to do is forget about 9/11 and "sweep it under the rug."


Why would I believe ANYTHING the government tells us. Especially when there is a Bush in the white house.

[HateSolstice]

Why would I believe ANYTHING the government tells us. Especially when there is a Bush in the white house.

Honestly, I think politician/lawyer=liar. Which almost brings me to the song "The Pot", but that's a different forum.

I wont believe any leader we have in office; Bush, Clinton, Kerry, etc. All are liars. Some are just better than others.

I think people hate Bush because he's a terrible liar, but the nation loved Clinton even when he was lying to your face with what I call a "car salesman face" plastered on.

Clinton-isms:
"I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman."
"I never inhaled."
*Plays saxophone*

<_< Admit it, you know it was all recorded saxophone music.

Anyway, if you're gonna start trusting politicians, I've got some lovely ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you. No Tool pun intended either.

[mindstream]

Didn't read any of the recent posts...but there's always something in which we vicariously watch.

[euphorias_prisoner]

The biggest mistake being made here is in thinking Flight 93 actually happened. Think back to that day 5 years ago... Did u actually see plane wreckage in that field??? All i remember seeing was a big pile of dirt!

[Setve]

exploiting death and destruction is good money.
how many video games have been released where you just kill Nazis/VCs the entire time you are palying?
the stuff sells and all they care about is making money.

[convict]

F*** United 93

[Marshalclick]

If people look/listen to this song and actually think that they are not what the song is talking about, then they are more sick than they deserve to be. LOCK THEM UP. Vicarious tells a lot of truths about human nature that we so forcefully push away in our subconcious. Genius. Embrace your inner animal.

[MarthFTW]

I wish you people would watch United 93. That's all I got.

[submachine]

Imagination to create death on paper is creativity at it's finest. However; actual events that result in loss of life are not progressive and should not be glorified on TV.

I can tell from your first post that if you were killed, no one would glorify your life, or your death. You would be forgotten immediately.

Unlike you, the world cares deeply about the heroes of flight 93, we want to see know them and their struggle in order to honor them, and we want to know the enemy in order to destroy them.

Vicarious has nothing to do with this, tard.

[YouSirAreAnIdiot]

You guys overanalyze this shit way too much.

[wearethestories]

Obviously you have not seen Bloody Sunday. Why dont you find out something about the movie and the director before you come to conclusions?

(Quote not directed at me, yet...)

I don't really feel the need to find out anything about the director. I saw the movie, everyone says its "incredible" with its 91% on RottenTomatoes.com, but it was a long, hard film to sit through. The acting, shooting, etc. was fantastic, and I especially appreciated the lack of artistic sacrifice to mainstream media (there was no "hero", and it didn't make me want to go on a white-power/kill-Muslims spree), but it was still horrendously inappropriate (regardless of what the victims' families say). This is intended to be some quasi-documentary that reminds us that we suffer from injustice and why we honor those who suffer.

But it doesn't tell us why we suffer, why those who make us suffer desire our suffering (if they even do), and why suffering is something we should ingest on a continual basis. For these reasons I applaude its ironic release date that almost coincides with the 10,000 Days release.

Honestly, if anything, the conversations with my housemate about who the hijackers were/why they were there/why they would desire to do this/how many planes were there actually/why did they plan this all so meticulously/do fanatical Muslims kill themselves BECAUSE they think it's the only sure-way to Heaven, or do they not mind killing themselves because they'll get to go to Heaven (two very different things)... these conversations sparked much more interest than anything the movie had to say about anything. And (HONESTLY) it allowed me to express some sort of sympathy* for the terrorists and why people around the globe hate Americans so much (something I'm SURE was not intended by the families or filmmakers).

As a conversation starter, the movie was excellent. As a piece of art: mehhh. And as entertainment: yawn.

I say FUCK "WORLD TRADE CENTER (2006)" (Oliver Stone's new movie with Nicholas Cage) --- THAT is just inconsiderate and ridiculous. We wonder why there were no films made shortly after Vietnam or WWII specifically ABOUT the wars... the nation needs time to heal and we can't do that well in the midst of war/uncertainty about leadership in a nuclear age/with top-dollar movies telling us how things were/directors trying to portray "illuminate" the events, twisting the truth with their own warped political (I don't CARE what Stone says about this film being apolitical... it's the guy who created worthless shit like "Platoon (1980?)" [terrible from a filmmaking standpoint... just a complete copy of Greek myth with OEdipal undertones] views.

For social satire, watch "Brewster McCloud (1971)" and laugh at mankind's ridiculous struggle to fly in a world that shoots us out of the sky (or do we fall on our own?).

In fact, watch anything by Robert Altman (especially "Nashville (1975)").





*SYMPATHY doesn't mean I agree, but that I understand (or at least I attempt to) before I judge/IF I judge.

[champion]

This is fucking stupid.

1. United 93 has only been in production for a year, and Tool likely had this song in the works since 2002 on the Lateralus tour.

2. Why would they write a song for a freaking movie?

3. United 93 is just a movie about 9/11, it's not like the movie is special. If they wanted to write about 9/11, they would, without needing to synch with a movie.

4. Vicarious has such a general theme that applies to anything.

[wearethestories]

we want to know the enemy in order to destroy them.

Great.


Destruction and murder... do we learn nothing from Tool, let alone from the film that you just esteemed?

Look at that line, again, and remember what those who hijacked United 93 said to one another before boarding the plane.


No, not exactly what they would say (motives are different), but how is that comment any less barbaric than flying a passenger 747 into a building full of people? Let's try to prove Maynard wrong on this "blues album" and take his advice from Lateralus --- he's showing us a way beyond violence to one another. Man, listen to ANYTHING (socially) and attempt to understand the "opposition" as you would term "them" instead of trying to take more life.

[champion]

I think this is a perfect example. I too was unpleasently surprised to see the trailer for this movie. They should donate all of the proceeds from this film to charity; that would be the only way for it to redeem itself. The producers may claim it's about not forgetting the victims, but this is purely exploiting them.

I think a reasonable portion of the film's profits DID go to charity. I didn't see this, but it was apparently not propoganda in the least, and focused more on the situation. It wasn't glorifying anything.

[wearethestories]

This is fucking stupid.

1. United 93 has only been in production for a year, and Tool likely had this song in the works since 2002 on the Lateralus tour.

2. Why would they write a song for a freaking movie?

3. United 93 is just a movie about 9/11, it's not like the movie is special. If they wanted to write about 9/11, they would, without needing to synch with a movie.

4. Vicarious has such a general theme that applies to anything.



And I think you misunderstood the original post. The author was noting the irony, not claiming some mystical connection.

Oh, and "Vicarious" does not apply to a big-lipped homosexual komodo dragon that has found itself inside a cigarette factory whilst tripping on pain killers. Take THAT "applies to anything"-man!

[wearethestories]

I think a reasonable portion of the film's profits DID go to charity. I didn't see this, but it was apparently not propoganda in the least, and focused more on the situation. It wasn't glorifying anything.

Donating to charity doesn't redeem bad art.

The film glorifies self-sacrifice.

Let's try to go without all the over-generalizations for a post or two.

[wearethestories]

I can tell from your first post that if you were killed, no one would glorify your life, or your death. You would be forgotten immediately.

Unlike you, the world cares deeply about the heroes of flight 93

Again, way to make America sound like God's discarded condom. Your violence speaks heavily to Maynard's words and your obliviousness is shocking.

The American public (idiots that we are) does NOT equal "the world".

[Omar Rodriguez-Mopez]

I must say, Vicarious did open my eyes about myself and the people around me. If people are dieing, it's on TV. And what is TV for? Entertainment. I remember only 4-5 years ago, back when I was young and innocent (14 now, so I was rather young), I saw the 9/11 attacks and was shocked and amazed. I believed everything I heard or saw and thought what the government said was right.

Well now my awareness of the world around me has increased greatly. I know what is truly right and wrong. If an opinion is expressed, I know it can be wrong. But after hearing Vicarous, the lyrics opened my eyes wider than before. I realized that I had been, and still was the type of person spoken of in the song. 9/11 was horrible, but we (all of you included) could not turn our heads from the headlines. Because we felt a sick sense of enjoyment over stuff like this.

And I am also one of those people who believe the government was involved in 9/11 attacks. If a jumbo-jet carrying large quantities of jet fuel crashed into the Pentagon, it would take out half the fucking building, but it wouldn't be completely vaporized. Same with Flight freackin' 93. Making a movie about tragedy is one thing, glamorizing it is another. I really doubt the heroicness of those people on that plane.

Oh....right this is a Tool forum........

[Gnome_Chomsky]

I see the whole "oooh the government was involved" thoughts, but theres one thing missing from that, at least to me, a motive. Also, I'm quite sure the song had nothing to do with this movie in particular, but the observation made by the song is simply proved by this movie, or the news, or 90% of the stuff on TV.

[win]

Do you think that Vicarious could be applicable to the future release of "United 93"? This may sound crazy but I have been thinking about the direction of entertainment lately. I mean, who the fuck authorizes the production of these films. I realize that the families of all of the victims signed off on the production of the film. However; art (drama) is not history. I don't enjoy the mixing of the two in the context of this film. To be honest, it is painful. And I don't want some bullshit inspirational story either. I don't believe in censorship but I would appreciate someone in the entertainment business to show a little decency. I am also sure their are a lot of people who would like to see this movie. But they are the idiots that the lyrics speak of. I do enjoy seeing death and whatnot on television and the theater but only in a fictional sense. Imagination to create death on paper is creativity at it's finest. However; actual events that result in loss of life are not progressive and should not be glorified on TV. I think we should all be able to distiungish between fiction and reality. But, then again, there are a lot of really stupid people out there. This is my first thread, so be nice. Its okay cuz I got flame repellent!

interesting