Is this song really in 5/4?

[igot shot]

My friend and i spent about 30 minutes trying to find out what time signiture Vicarious was in and we decided it must be in some kind of wierd 11/8 or something but then i downloaded a tabliture... Is it really in 5/4? that seems really fucked up(in a good way) It has a really different feel rhythmically to me and i think thats part of the sexyness of the song

[LeMarchand]

5/4 10/4 or 5/8 10/8 - find the accents.

[F!end]

Yeah, 5/4 most of it, the chorus is in 6/4, the triplets thingy ending is a single bar in 7/4

That's it.

[The/Perfect/Tool]

how do you figure out the time signatures of a song?

[harbong]

you count. feel the beat, and find when the riffs/phrases repeat. In this song, it's every 5 quarter notes (you can tell they're quarter notes because of the subdivisions in the instrument parts, like the dotted eighth-sixteenth pattern for the main riff).
if you want to get real specific, the song is actually in 6/8+4/8=10/8=5/4. you can see this in the two patterns of the main riff that go back and forth. apparently tool likes revolving time signatures (9+8+7 in lateralus, 3+4 in schism, etc)
In fact, the only song on this record in 4/4 is the pot (correct me if I'm wrong), just as the only song on lateralus in 4 was parabola. In contrast, almost all of aenima was in 4/4.

[usa4jer]

The chorus seems to be 28 beats, 4 bars of 6/8 and then one of 4/8. The end also seems to be 6/8, i'm not sure about this alledged last bar of 7/4.

10,000 Days (the song) is 6/8, I guess, although it could just as easily be 4/4.

[dracomordag]

the chorus is in 25/8

easiest to count as 12/8 then 9/8 then 2/4

[usa4jer]

You are incorrect sir.

[dracomordag]

lol

i'll post a click track for you later

[usa4jer]

Okay, but I'm almost sure I hear 28 beats, 4 of 6/8 and one of 4/8. The chorus at the end gets rid of the last 4 beats so it's just 24.

In fact, I'm so sure of it I'll bet you a copy of 10K Days.

[shifty50fs]

Okay, but I'm almost sure I hear 28 beats, 4 of 6/8 and one of 4/8. The chorus at the end gets rid of the last 4 beats so it's just 24.

In fact, I'm so sure of it I'll bet you a copy of 10K Days.

I think it makes sense to divide it into 2 measures of 6/8, 1 measure of 7/8, and 1 measure of 9/8.

The last chorus is 2 measures of 6/8, 1 measure of 2+3+3/8, and then a 4/8. Could just count 4 measures of 6/8 but that's kind of awkward.

[usa4jer]

I think it makes sense to divide it into 2 measures of 6/8, 1 measure of 7/8, and 1 measure of 9/8.
Agreed. Definitely 28 beats total though.

[rockchalk2006]

can someone explain how 5/4 or 6/8 works? (pretend Im a 3 year old).
Sad part is I can play schism and Eulogy perfectly along w/ the cd on guitar...just never took the time to learn the technical side of playing, yes im a tab whore.

[champion]

It's just counting to the rhythm of the beat, if that's simple enough for you. When the beat begins, count 1 on the beginning, and count to the rhythm until the beat starts over again. If you count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the beat goes back to the beginning, it's in 5/4, which means five counts of a quarter note (it could be 5/8, which just means the beat is faster and you're counting eighth notes instead). It's quite simple, it's just counting.

[Oberon]

can someone explain how 5/4 or 6/8 works? (pretend Im a 3 year old).
Sad part is I can play schism and Eulogy perfectly along w/ the cd on guitar...just never took the time to learn the technical side of playing, yes im a tab whore.


6/8 is tradtionally played with 2 beats and 6 pulses a measure, so thats
ONE two three FOUR five six


Schism has a total of 12 8th notes per measure, but its not in 6, its in 5:7/8
ONE two three four five ONE two three four five six seven

Generally 5 is just played as 4 with an extra beat (think "indiscipline" by king crimson, or the second part to Thick as a Brick (see there a man is born) by Jethro Tull)

But in the case of vicarious its played as more of a One two three One two three One two Three four sorta feel, so that 5 is the quarter, making 10 eighth notes.



PM me if you want to know way too much about music.

[Oberon]

It's just counting to the rhythm of the beat, if that's simple enough for you. When the beat begins, count 1 on the beginning, and count to the rhythm until the beat starts over again. If you count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the beat goes back to the beginning, it's in 5/4, which means five counts of a quarter note (it could be 5/8, which just means the beat is faster and you're counting eighth notes instead). It's quite simple, it's just counting.
This is misleading, but generally correct.

[smeefsmeef]

I need to watch things diie from a good safe distance
1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
That part of the chorus goes from 6/4 to 2 measures of 4/4
This song is full of time changes. Even the time signature of some of the verses changes. Most of the time, the verses are in 5/4, but during the verse:"Hands to the sky cryin" the time changes for 1 measure to 6/4.

There are far too many time changes in this song to post without taking up, like, 50 pages of space.

[smeefsmeef]

the chorus is in 25/8

easiest to count as 12/8 then 9/8 then 2/4
sorry, but you don't know your music theory

[smeefsmeef]

It's just counting to the rhythm of the beat, if that's simple enough for you. When the beat begins, count 1 on the beginning, and count to the rhythm until the beat starts over again. If you count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the beat goes back to the beginning, it's in 5/4, which means five counts of a quarter note (it could be 5/8, which just means the beat is faster and you're counting eighth notes instead). It's quite simple, it's just counting.

nice post, but I don't think someone who knows nothing about music theory will understand quarter notes, eight notes (aka the denominator part of a time signature)

[Blue10]

people here who already know nothing about music need to stop telling other people what time the song is in.

[smeefsmeef]

people here who already know nothing about music need to stop telling other people what time the song is in.

I wholeheartedly agree

[Oberon]

I wholeheartedly agree


;( the song is clearly in 29/42

[Meter Minorca]

the intro of the song is in 4/4 with accents placed in awkward places (a la stravinsky - the second movement is written in 2/2 with accents) if you tap the pulse of the music in the music leading up to it and continue that tempo when the intro comes for the second time back you will find that when counting it as four, the bells will come in on one every time, and the new section (in 5/4) will come in. The last chorus is in 4 though, and i counted the ending in 4, ending on an upbeat as opposed to 7 ending on a downbeat, but i suppose either way would technically be correct. everything else is definately in 5/4 except for the chorus which i am currnetly counting in 7/4, but it could also be thought of as a 4/4 with odd phrasing. there is one bar of 6/4 in the verses though.

And Oberon, its a bit petty, but technically its two pulses and 6 beats (not two beats and 6 pulses) for 6/8. though there have certainly been works written in 6/8 that have 3 pulses and works in 3/4 that have 2 pulses. As for schism, I would definately call it 3/4 with a syncopation as opposed to 5:7/8. dividing meters in such a way is reserved for like 10:7/8 where the hypermetre of the phrase is a prime #. Otherwise it's makeing something that can quite easily be conducted as 3/4 sound much more complex than it actually is.

[smeefsmeef]

"That's my kind of story" and "It's no fun till someone dies: verses are in 6/4

[Oberon]

the intro of the song is in 4/4 with accents placed in awkward places (a la stravinsky - the second movement is written in 2/2 with accents) if you tap the pulse of the music in the music leading up to it and continue that tempo when the intro comes for the second time back you will find that when counting it as four, the bells will come in on one every time, and the new section (in 5/4) will come in. The last chorus is in 4 though, and i counted the ending in 4, ending on an upbeat as opposed to 7 ending on a downbeat, but i suppose either way would technically be correct. everything else is definately in 5/4 except for the chorus which i am currnetly counting in 7/4, but it could also be thought of as a 4/4 with odd phrasing. there is one bar of 6/4 in the verses though.

And Oberon, its a bit petty, but technically its two pulses and 6 beats (not two beats and 6 pulses) for 6/8. though there have certainly been works written in 6/8 that have 3 pulses and works in 3/4 that have 2 pulses. As for schism, I would definately call it 3/4 with a syncopation as opposed to 5:7/8. dividing meters in such a way is reserved for like 10:7/8 where the hypermetre of the phrase is a prime #. Otherwise it's makeing something that can quite easily be conducted as 3/4 sound much more complex than it actually is.


which one is the pulse and which one is the beat differs depending on who you ask.

[rockchalk2006]

thanks for replies, making more sense now.

[comfortably_numb]

a general note by the man himself on the structure of the some of the songs on 10k

"I however try to play my own melodies on the drums, to contrast the harmonic instruments. And when the band changes from a 6/8 beat to a 5/4, I play the 5/4 even before the 6/8 ends. Hopefully that all will be received by the listener. "

the source is orange.juice's translation of a german magazine article

[usa4jer]

the intro of the song is in 4/4 with accents placed in awkward places (a la stravinsky - the second movement is written in 2/2 with accents) if you tap the pulse of the music in the music leading up to it and continue that tempo when the intro comes for the second time back you will find that when counting it as four, the bells will come in on one every time, and the new section (in 5/4) will come in. The last chorus is in 4 though, and i counted the ending in 4, ending on an upbeat as opposed to 7 ending on a downbeat, but i suppose either way would technically be correct. everything else is definately in 5/4 except for the chorus which i am currnetly counting in 7/4, but it could also be thought of as a 4/4 with odd phrasing. there is one bar of 6/4 in the verses though.
You're using a lot of money-phrases in there so you either know what you're talking about or you're a good bullshitter. But I can't figure any way that the intro is anything but 5 or 10. There are multiple rhythms going on in lots of Tool songs, but basing 4/4 on the bells doesn't make much sense when the guitars that are leading the rhythm are in 5 or 10.

[TheHolyGift]

I have the chorus as 6/4 , 4/4 , 4/4 and it matches perfectly when I play it against the song in powertab.

[IC]

the chorus is in 25/8

easiest to count as 12/8 then 9/8 then 2/4
time signatures almost never go by something that can be easily divided by something. aka youd go about it in the breakdown u showed, but im almost sure ( im not listening to it now, but) its in 6/4.

[acsguitar]

Ugh time signatures time to break out my music theory books again.

[chickenweasel]

I have the chorus as 6/4 , 4/4 , 4/4...

This is how I heard it right off the bat. You can call it whatever you'd like (2 6/8s follwed by... etc.) but 6/4 followed by 4/4, before going back into the verse area in 5, seems the most natural way to think about the meter here.

[Oberon]

This is how I heard it right off the bat. You can call it whatever you'd like (2 6/8s follwed by... etc.) but 6/4 followed by 4/4, before going back into the verse area in 5, seems the most natural way to think about the meter here.


I heard it as two 6/8s etc. Same total number of beats.

[BrokeN_Naols]

In fact, the only song on this record in 4/4 is the pot (correct me if I'm wrong), just as the only song on lateralus in 4 was parabola. In contrast, almost all of aenima was in 4/4.


Wings for MArie, 10,000 days are both pretty much all in 4/4. apart from thr riff after. "Judith Marie, unconditional one." Thats in 6/4. :)

[Window Licker]

;( the song is clearly in 29/42

I was thinking they were more like 32nd notes.

[praefector]

i tapped out the main riff in 5/4

but there are a lot of changes, changes running into and weaving into and out of each other..accents changing constantly...not to mention at parts the guitars are playing in one time sig but the drums and bass are in another

thats why its so hard to count and you see so many inconsistencies

[harbong]

I believe wings/10k is in 6/8.
the descending guitar riff is in groups of 3.

[Rosetta Stoned]

personally, i believe vicarious is in 11.

[Opiate_Mass]

viginti tres is in 11/23
xD

[black_rose]

This thread is hilarious!

[usa4jer]

Dammit, half of you are being sarcastic and the other half are idiots. I'm just not sure which is which.

[BrokeN_Naols]

I believe wings/10k is in 6/8.
the descending guitar riff is in groups of 3.


Yup the guitar follows all kinds of timings. but I garuntee, the majority of the song is 4/4. :)

[bedlam]

Yup the guitar follows all kinds of timings. but I garuntee, the majority of the song is 4/4. :)

It would be funny to see you tap the main riff in 4/4. Because the majority of the song is 5/4, as been said a million times. The guitar in the intro is clearly in 5/4 too, and even if the bass sounds like it's in a different time signature, it is in fact 5/4 too, as the highest note on the end of the melody always hits the first note of the current bar.

The main riff is in 5/4, so is the verse, except there's two bars of 6/4 in: "It's my kind of story. No fun 'til someone dies." Then again 5/4, until before the chorus there's one bar in 6/4 and one 5/4 in: "Hands to the sky, crying "Why, oh why?"

The chorus: 6/4, 4/4, 4/4, again 6/4, 4/4, 4/4, and one bar of 6/4.

Sorry about my english.

[philosophomore]

Correct me if I'm wrong... I'm recalling this shit from eight+ years ago in High School drumline, but when you're counting a phrase that is in "8," e.g., 6/8, 10/8, 5/8, etc., and the next measure has four beats, but it's still the same speed, you're not going to say it's 6/8 followed by 4/4 -- you'd have to say 6/8 followed by 4/8.

Otherwise it implies that the tempo slowed down by exactly half (from eighth note beats to quarter note beats).

You could count this entire song in 4 (instead of 8), as in 6/4 & 5/4, but those would be some ridiculously fast quarter note beats!! Something like 5 beats per second, yielding a tempo of 300 (though my bps is probably way off -- I never mastered the counting two seperate things simultaneously thing, but you get the picture), when it's more common to see tempos at 120 (2 bps) or 180 (3 bps).



Obviously this is a quibble, but if you're really interested in learning this stuff...

[Oberon]

Wings for MArie, 10,000 days are both pretty much all in 4/4. apart from thr riff after. "Judith Marie, unconditional one." Thats in 6/4. :)


Actually 10,000 days is mostly in 12. 4 with a triplet base.

Snootch.

[Oberon]

Correct me if I'm wrong... I'm recalling this shit from eight+ years ago in High School drumline, but when you're counting a phrase that is in "8," e.g., 6/8, 10/8, 5/8, etc., and the next measure has four beats, but it's still the same speed, you're not going to say it's 6/8 followed by 4/4 -- you'd have to say 6/8 followed by 4/8.

Otherwise it implies that the tempo slowed down by exactly half (from eighth note beats to quarter note beats).

You could count this entire song in 4 (instead of 8), as in 6/4 & 5/4, but those would be some ridiculously fast quarter note beats!! Something like 5 beats per second, yielding a tempo of 300 (though my bps is probably way off -- I never mastered the counting two seperate things simultaneously thing, but you get the picture), when it's more common to see tempos at 120 (2 bps) or 180 (3 bps).



Obviously this is a quibble, but if you're really interested in learning this stuff...

When people are just talknig about the feel of a song rather than actually notating it, the bottom number is pretty irrelevant. People will say "4/4" because thats the normal bottom number for "4" and it gets across the feel they mean more efficiently than "4/8", which would mean the same thing but would confuse people because they're used to 4 having a 4 underneath it. if you say "6/4" instead of "6/8", people are going to think "1 2 3 4 5 6" rather than 1 2 3 4 5 6...


since we're not actually notating the music, we're following the principle of least surprise.


And if we WERE notating, we'd just say "quarter = dotted quarter" on the measure above the time change.

[black_rose]

Seriously i haven't checked most of it but the majority of the song is 10/8 probably odd bar of 6/8, not in the intro though thats all 10/8.

I can remember it feeling a different towards the end but not sure without listening again.

[philosophomore]

When people are just talking about the feel of a song rather than actually notating it, the bottom number is pretty irrelevant.

I see your point, but I think it's better the true way.

if you say "6/4" instead of "6/8", people are going to think "1 2 3 4 5 6" rather than 1 2 3 4 5 6...

But people without a real familiarity w/musical theory wouldn't usually think of 6/8 as having pulses on the 1 & 4, no?

The reason I like it my way is because it expresses (in a straightforward manner) the number of beats (top number) per measure, and the type of beats these beats are (i.e., 4/4 is four quarter notes per measure, 6/4 is six quarter notes/measure, 6/8 is six eighth notes/measure, etc.). IMHO, it doesn't really matter where the accents are placed, but I do see what your saying.

To me, this way would constitute the "least surprise."

And if we WERE notating, we'd just say "quarter = dotted quarter" on the measure above the time change.

Please explain -- you've totally lost me... doesn't a "dotted" quarter note signify a note held for the length of one & one-half a normal quarter note?

Surely you're not referring to the dot being "underneath" the note (denoting stacatto, right? Which wouldn't make sense here.), are you?


Oh yeah, P.S. For time signatures, what is the technical term for the "numerator & denominators? Something about a meter, isn't it?

[philosophomore]

Seriously i haven't checked most of it but the majority of the song is 10/8 probably odd bar of 6/8, not in the intro though thats all 10/8.


Totally in agreement. Even the intro feels most naturally suited to 10/8. And try counting the "part vampire..." shit in anything but (not literally; I'm sure one can, but it makes my head spin)!

[Attila]

The song is in 5/4 and the chorus is 6/4 and two measures of 4/4. There are a couple measures of 6/4 in the rest of the song here and there. I'm a music major in college. This is all I do all day...Literally.

[Oberon]

I see your point, but I think it's better the true way.



But people without a real familiarity w/musical theory wouldn't usually think of 6/8 as having pulses on the 1 & 4, no?

The reason I like it my way is because it expresses (in a straightforward manner) the number of beats (top number) per measure, and the type of beats these beats are (i.e., 4/4 is four quarter notes per measure, 6/4 is six quarter notes/measure, 6/8 is six eighth notes/measure, etc.). IMHO, it doesn't really matter where the accents are placed, but I do see what your saying.

To me, this way would constitute the "least surprise."



Please explain -- you've totally lost me... doesn't a "dotted" quarter note signify a note held for the length of one & one-half a normal quarter note?

Surely you're not referring to the dot being "underneath" the note (denoting stacatto, right? Which wouldn't make sense here.), are you?


Oh yeah, P.S. For time signatures, what is the technical term for the "numerator & denominators? Something about a meter, isn't it?


Most people with knowledge of reading music / time signatures think of 6 / 8 as having a 2 feel with the triplets feel underneath these two beats.


when you change time signature / feels, its common to put something like "quarter = dotted eighth" or "eight = half note", to indicate that what ONCE was represented as a quater is now represented as a dotted eighth. I'm working on a jazz song right now that switched from 6/8 to 4/4 and it does "dotted quarter = half note".


And as for what you said about it being better "the true way"....


There is nothing inherently different between "quarter notes" and "eighth notes".

the only thing thats different between two different types of notes is their length. if you're in 4/4 a quarter is one fourth of the bar, and if you're in 4/8 an eighth is one foruth of the bar... Therefore quarters and eighths are utterly indistinguishable to the ear. The only reason we call somethings quarters and some things eighths is entirely up to musical conventions.


I could take Vicarious and notate entirely in 5/1 (excepting the odd measures that have extra beats etc). It'd be ugly, but totally doable. I could then get vicarious and write it out in 5/16. Once again, it would be totally doable, and completely true to the music. Give it to a bunch of virtuoso players to sight-read and you'd hear vicarious.

There is no "true way" when talking about note lengths, because whether you use quarters vs. eighths vs. sixteenths is entirely up to the arranger. BUT, its best to use the principle of "least surprise", and most musicians are expecting a certain thing when they see certain time signatures, and its best to cater to their expectations unless you want to spend 20 minutes explaining your 2 minute arrangement to them.


As to what you said about it not mattering where the accents are placed....


there are some people that will argue that for ANY type of "6" meter to be in anything other than "compound" meter, it is syncopation. I hate these people, but these are the type of people you have to deal with when you're talking about writing stuff out in different meters.



To summarize: Most people think "ONE two three FOUR five six" when they see 6/8. most people think "One Two Three Four Five" when they see 5/4. Most people think "One two three Four five six One two Three four" when they see 10/8. Most people think "One two Three four five" or "One two three Four five" when they see 5 eight... and you REALLY have to take this into account when talking about feels. Its much more convenient to use a "Quarter = Eighth" than it is to try to keep the same lower number and try to fight against people's natural inclination for certain feels.


And yeah, i dont know if there ARE official terms for the upper and lower numbers on a time sig. i go to music school and i've never heard them.


P.S. just looked it up in my harvard dictionary of music. It uses the terms "numerator" and "denominator", so there ya go.

[Meter Minorca]

trust me the intro is in 4, find the pulse, its REALLY easy to conduct it in 4, though it is understandable how people think its in 5, the syncopations do hint at 13/8 to 5/4 to 5/8 to 9/8 or something like that, but find the larger pulse, it IS in four

[Oberon]

trust me the intro is in 4, find the pulse, its REALLY easy to conduct it in 4, though it is understandable how people think its in 5, the syncopations do hint at 13/8 to 5/4 to 5/8 to 9/8 or something like that, but find the larger pulse, it IS in four


sorry, you're wrong. record yourself counting 4 over a section and email it to me if you're really vehement.


edit: [email protected]

[Attila]

trust me the intro is in 4, find the pulse, its REALLY easy to conduct it in 4, though it is understandable how people think its in 5, the syncopations do hint at 13/8 to 5/4 to 5/8 to 9/8 or something like that, but find the larger pulse, it IS in four
Just because you can count to 4 evenly doesn't mean it is in 4. If that were the case then "Longview" by Green Day is in 5/4 because I can count to 5 over it. Vicarious is clearly in 5/4.

[BrokeN_Naols]

It would be funny to see you tap the main riff in 4/4. Because the majority of the song is 5/4, as been said a million times. The guitar in the intro is clearly in 5/4 too, and even if the bass sounds like it's in a different time signature, it is in fact 5/4 too, as the highest note on the end of the melody always hits the first note of the current bar.

The main riff is in 5/4, so is the verse, except there's two bars of 6/4 in: "It's my kind of story. No fun 'til someone dies." Then again 5/4, until before the chorus there's one bar in 6/4 and one 5/4 in: "Hands to the sky, crying "Why, oh why?"

The chorus: 6/4, 4/4, 4/4, again 6/4, 4/4, 4/4, and one bar of 6/4.

Sorry about my english.


Sorry dude, I am talking abour 10,000 days, & Wings for Marie.

[Oberon]

Sorry dude, I am talking abour 10,000 days, & Wings for Marie.

10,000 days is in 12. i think wings is too but i have barely listened to both of them and i just remember thinking "Lame 12/8 beat" when i listened to 10,000 days.

[bedlam]

Sorry dude, I am talking abour 10,000 days, & Wings for Marie.

Oops, sorry.

[cranstonman]

i didn't take time to look through most of this, but the fact is that a time sig. can be interpreted any way you want it to. i think someone talked about phrasing, and thats the most important thing, the only time you need to know the time sig. is if you are writting out the song, and it's still left up to interpretation unless you are writting the song yourself.

[cranstonman]

i might add that figuring out TOOL's time signatures most of the time is a waste. a lot of times they are playing in different time sigs. which eventually match up after so many phrases. (ex. adam plays in 4, danny plays in 5, they meet at 20, or 4x5, this can be heard in the lateralus breakdown)

[Oberon]

i might add that figuring out TOOL's time signatures most of the time is a waste. a lot of times they are playing in different time sigs. which eventually match up after so many phrases. (ex. adam plays in 4, danny plays in 5, they meet at 20, or 4x5, this can be heard in the lateralus breakdown)


how does that make it a waste? If anything that makes it more fun.

Go listen to "frame by frame" by king crimson with a bunch of friends and figure IT out. LOADS of fun.

[Oberon]

i didn't take time to look through most of this, but the fact is that a time sig. can be interpreted any way you want it to. i think someone talked about phrasing, and thats the most important thing, the only time you need to know the time sig. is if you are writting out the song, and it's still left up to interpretation unless you are writting the song yourself.


this is false, do not listen to this man

[cranstonman]

i agree that it can make it intersting for those who understand something about music theory, but please explain to me how my post is false.

[Oberon]

i agree that it can make it intersting for those who understand something about music theory, but please explain to me how my post is false.


If you know what time you're playing in, its a lot easier to play it than if you're just playing sorta how it sounds. I understand playing by feeling, but to play something in weird odd times by feeling you have to have a REALLY good feel for rhythm and a really good ear. Forgive me if you DO have one, but if you're like 90% of musicians you need to at least know what time you're in to be able to actually play a weird metered song. You dont even necessarily even need to know the name of the time, like 5 or 3 or whatever... but you still need to know it, inside of you.

[cranstonman]

my point was that the time signature could appear differntly to differnt ears, for example, 3/4 could also be written as 6/8 depending on how you are counting, or 5/4 could be heard as 10/8, the question in the original post was is it 5/4, by some it may be or it may be 10/8, i just thought that if this person wanted a real answer it would be better to understand the phrase of the main riff, rather than try to count out 5/4 which can be hard for some. for example he may feel it as 1-2-3-4, 1 or 1-2-3, 1-2

[cranstonman]

i really don't understand why you would disagree with me, after reading back through this post, you are basically saying the same thing as me,
"which one is the pulse and which one is the beat differs depending on who you ask.",

[Oberon]

my point was that the time signature could appear differntly to differnt ears, for example, 3/4 could also be written as 6/8 depending on how you are counting, or 5/4 could be heard as 10/8, the question in the original post was is it 5/4, by some it may be or it may be 10/8, i just thought that if this person wanted a real answer it would be better to understand the phrase of the main riff, rather than try to count out 5/4 which can be hard for some. for example he may feel it as 1-2-3-4, 1 or 1-2-3, 1-2
3/4 and 6/8 are not interchangable.

5/4 and 10/8 are pretty similar, yes, but saying that its irrelevant to try to learn what time sig you're in is a massive overstatement of your point.

[Oberon]

i really don't understand why you would disagree with me, after reading back through this post, you are basically saying the same thing as me,
"which one is the pulse and which one is the beat differs depending on who you ask.",
I was referring to the minor beats and major beats that you have in compound meters, not in the relativity of different time signatures

[cranstonman]

ok, i tried to understand your point but you are the one who is false, how can 5/4 and 10/8 be similar, but 3/4 and 6/8 not be. this does not make sense. if you know anything about multiplying fractions you can understand. secondly, there is no such thing as a minor and major beat, there are accents if that's what you mean. i don't know what else to say.

[Oberon]

ok, i tried to understand your point but you are the one who is false, how can 5/4 and 10/8 be similar, but 3/4 and 6/8 not be. this does not make sense. if you know anything about multiplying fractions you can understand. secondly, there is no such thing as a minor and major beat, there are accents if that's what you mean. i don't know what else to say.



"minor" and "major" beats were terms that just made up to refer to the different types of beats in compound meters.


By an extremely strong musical convention, 6/8 is a compound meter. its so strong of a music convention that every professionally written piece of music, no matter what genre, will use 6/8 as a compound meter, unless it is avant garde and the person is trying to play off everyone's expectations of 6/8 as a compound meter.


a compound meter is one where the beat is divided into three instead of two. 6/8 is a meter with two beats and six pulses, or two pulses and 6 beats, its totally up to who you're talking to. Regardless, there's two BIG beats and three SMALLER beats. Its not just the way its accented, its actually a function of the meter. 12/8 is also traditionally a compound meter, but the convention isn't nearly as strong as all that.



Because this is entirely a matter of convention (albeit an Extremely strong convention... and isn't ALL music notation just a matter of convention?), and there hasn't been nearly enough music written in 5/4 for there to be a convention for it, 5/4 and 10/8 are often used interchangeably. I would say the intro to vicarious is in 10/8, because it feels like 6/8 (ONE two three FOUR five six) with four extra beats (or pulses, or whatever the fuck), where as i'd say other parts of vicarious feel more like 4/4 with an extra beat, so they're more like 5/4. for simplicity's sake we'd just pick one and stick with it, since its an irregular meter anyway and irregular meters are not nearly as well defined in how they feel.

[cranstonman]

ok, i understand. and after looking at this site, http://www.8notes.com/school/theory/simple_and_compound_meter.asp , i understand what you were trying to say.

[Oberon]

ok, i understand. and after looking at this site, http://www.8notes.com/school/theory/simple_and_compound_meter.asp , i understand what you were trying to say.


Keep in mind that the stuff that site says only really applies to traditional music, and that progressive stuff breaks away from a lot of it...


But the "6/8 = compound meter" thing holds for almost every type of music. Most contemporary musicians dont view 6/4 as compound anymore, though.

[Godbluff]

I love that fact that I can listen to this a and go: 123-123-12-12-WTF! :)

Also, as a side note. Can Tool please write a song in 2/3? :P

[Meter Minorca]

oberon, the phrase repeats after 20 beats, it can be counted in 4 or 5, assuming that the guitar is playing 8th notes, try counting it in 4 it makes the same amount of sense, if I were transcribing it I would write it in 4 with accents under the low Ds, but 5/8 works as well, if its thought of as 3+2+2+3 twice (the final note is different the second time around) you were thinking of it as two phases of 5 and i was thinking of it as 5 phrases of 4, that is where my ear went first, and i think if i were to read it from score it would be easier for me to think of it as 4. I mentioned it before, but check out stravinsky's rite of spring, the second section sounds like a crap load of meters, but its written as 2/4. the reason why is because he wrote it in odd meters, but the players were having trouble, so he changed it. I've run into the same problem in my work before as well, instumentalists will have an easier time reading 4 than 5/8. i think there is a time displacement in the bass as well that is making me hear it in 4, but since the guitar is so far in the front of the mix im having trouble counting the bass

[philosophomore]

Thanks for that link cranstonman -- cleared up alot of my questions. To summarize: Most people think "ONE two three FOUR five six" when they see 6/8. most people think "One Two Three Four Five" when they see 5/4. Most people think "One two three Four five six One two Three four" when they see 10/8. Most people think "One two Three four five" or "One two three Four five" when they see 5 eight... and you REALLY have to take this into account when talking about feels. Its much more convenient to use a "Quarter = Eighth" than it is to try to keep the same lower number and try to fight against people's natural inclination for certain feels.

Ahh. I now see the source of my misunderstanding your point. Perhaps owing to the idiosyncracies of my musical "education" (read: 4yrs Drumline), and with the salient exception of 6/8 (favorite TS, by the way), with its pulses generally on 1 & 4, I never have any preconcieved associations of pulses with any certain time signatures, so what you were saying was at first completely incomprehensible to me.

I can understand now though, how the pairing of certain patterns of pulses with certain time signatures, would be a natural sort of association, and can conceed that perhaps indeed "most people" "feel" time signatures in this way.

That being said, I must take issue with one of your statements made later:If you're in 4/4 a quarter is one fourth of the bar, and if you're in 4/8 an eighth is one fourth of the bar...
No problem here. Therefore quarters and eighths are utterly indistinguishable to the ear. The only reason we call some things quarters and some things eighths is entirely up to musical conventions.Now I must (emphatically) object! While your premise is correct, to infer that this implies there is no difference between the two types of notes ignores the dimension of time (tempo), which is something one could be forgiven for, were it not for your obviously acute knowledge of musical theory.

(And this isn't just a minor quibble, either.)

Picture This If You Will: Let's suppose a two bar phrase, consisting of one measure of 4/4, followed by one measure of 4/8.

Of course you can't mean to imply that one is audibly indistinguishable from the other---that's demonstrably false!

In fact, the sole possibility in which they would sound alike, to the ear, would be if the tempo (i.e., speed, most often if not always expressed in "beats per minute," for anyone curious) were to halve itself from the first measure to the second (e.g., a bar of 4/4 @ a tempo of 120, and a measure of 4/8 @ a dreadfully slow tempo of 60, would be identical in rhythms).

No one would write a phrase like that, switching tempos so often, when one could achieve the exact same rhythm by just writing the 2nd bar as another of 4/4 at the same tempo, unless they were just trying to be silly!

So, my main point I wished to express at first, before I misunderstood you, was that people on here trying to teach themselves this stuff shouldn't just think of time signatures as equivocal fractions (i.e., 2/4 = 4/8, 3/4 = 6/8, etc.), which you've explained to them as well, but I must lodge a strenuous objection to the switching of the "denominators" in mid-song (barring any significant tempo change which would warrant it).

Calling a part 10/8, then a following part 6/4 (instead of 6/8) may well "feel" right (due to your association of patterns w/a specific TS), but were it written down that way, and assuming a constant tempo, dammit!*, then it wouldn't sound like what you meant it to at all -- the bar of 6/4 would be played at "one half" the speed of it's predecessor.

Though it may well be an arbitrary choice which "denominator" you start calling out the time signatures for a song, I think that once you've chosen your "template" (if you will), you should stick to it throughout the song, as otherwise you have to change your tempo drastically, which is jarringly unnecessary, IMHO.

But perhaps the problem of tempo changes (to you) pales in comparison to the problem of phrasing a certain rhythm pattern in a time signature that "feels" wrong for it, and if you must double the tempo to save the feel, then fuck it? Is that accurate? I will be satisfied if you feel this way, having understood our differing points of view, as I admit to not having the "natural inclination" to associate pulse-patterns w/specific time signatures.

Good christ, this became way too long---I apologize for beating some (probably fairly obvious) points into the ground... just needed to ensure that I was fully understood by anyone interested. Also, I missed editing out the "the true way" out of my post as I was on my way out the door and already late, but of course I would not intend to be so pompous---I'm glad you took issue with the phrase!

[Oberon]

Thanks for that link cranstonman -- cleared up alot of my questions.

Ahh. I now see the source of my misunderstanding your point. Perhaps owing to the idiosyncracies of my musical "education" (read: 4yrs Drumline), and with the salient exception of 6/8 (favorite TS, by the way), with its pulses generally on 1 & 4, I never have any preconcieved associations of pulses with any certain time signatures, so what you were saying was at first completely incomprehensible to me.

I can understand now though, how the pairing of certain patterns of pulses with certain time signatures, would be a natural sort of association, and can conceed that perhaps indeed "most people" "feel" time signatures in this way.

That being said, I must take issue with one of your statements made later:
No problem here. Now I must (emphatically) object! While your premise is correct, to blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah


you misunderstood me. I was just trying to say that if you got a tambourine and slapped some quarter notes, then stopped, and 2 hours latter slapped some eighth notes, in totally different tempos, with no context, they're not uniquely indentifiable. There's nothing inherently quarterish about a quarter note, and there's nothing inherently eighthness about an eighth note... Except for the built up expectations that we have about quarters and eighths, which oculd be totally different depending on our musical context and upbringing.


Hey, remember how a time signature is written Quarter = 120? if you change to 6/8 and write Dotted Quarter = 120, Then the tempo isn't changed at all and the feel is changed. I think thats the most efficient way of changing times, so you dont have to worry about the "relative tempo" issue.

[Oberon]

oberon, the phrase repeats after 20 beats, it can be counted in 4 or 5, assuming that the guitar is playing 8th notes, try counting it in 4 it makes the same amount of sense, if I were transcribing it I would write it in 4 with accents under the low Ds, but 5/8 works as well, if its thought of as 3+2+2+3 twice (the final note is different the second time around) you were thinking of it as two phases of 5 and i was thinking of it as 5 phrases of 4, that is where my ear went first, and i think if i were to read it from score it would be easier for me to think of it as 4. I mentioned it before, but check out stravinsky's rite of spring, the second section sounds like a crap load of meters, but its written as 2/4. the reason why is because he wrote it in odd meters, but the players were having trouble, so he changed it. I've run into the same problem in my work before as well, instumentalists will have an easier time reading 4 than 5/8. i think there is a time displacement in the bass as well that is making me hear it in 4, but since the guitar is so far in the front of the mix im having trouble counting the bass


Edit: I'm an idiot. you're still wrong.

If you count it in a 5 measure phrase of 4, you're confused for most of the time until it suddently matches up with itself. I tried it, i was able to do it, and it "worked" like a 50 year old mexican car.

[Meter Minorca]

thats just how i heard it dude, and it would still be easier for performers to read it from score that way

Originally Posted by cranstonman
i didn't take time to look through most of this, but the fact is that a time sig. can be interpreted any way you want it to. i think someone talked about phrasing, and thats the most important thing, the only time you need to know the time sig. is if you are writting out the song, and it's still left up to interpretation unless you are writting the song yourself.

This IS correct. There certainly are simpler ways to write things. i could write something that SOUNDS like 6/8 as 4/4 in triplets, examples of this extend all the way back to mozart. I also could write something with a 5/8 feel in 6/8 (This is how i would write the displaced drumline in the breakdown of lateralus. it all depends on how much of an asshole you want to be to the performer. once again, the second movement of the rite of spring is written in 2/4, but it SOUNDS and FEELS like 9/4 to 2/4 to 6/4 to 2/4 etc. etc.

[Oberon]

thats just how i heard it dude, and it would still be easier for performers to read it from score that way

Originally Posted by cranstonman
i didn't take time to look through most of this, but the fact is that a time sig. can be interpreted any way you want it to. i think someone talked about phrasing, and thats the most important thing, the only time you need to know the time sig. is if you are writting out the song, and it's still left up to interpretation unless you are writting the song yourself.

This IS correct. There certainly are simpler ways to write things. i could write something that SOUNDS like 6/8 as 4/4 in triplets, examples of this extend all the way back to mozart. I also could write something with a 5/8 feel in 6/8 (This is how i would write the displaced drumline in the breakdown of lateralus. it all depends on how much of an asshole you want to be to the performer. once again, the second movement of the rite of spring is written in 2/4, but it SOUNDS and FEELS like 9/4 to 2/4 to 6/4 to 2/4 etc. etc.


Yes, I know. Its just dumb. There's no reason to transcribe a song in a way such that the first beat of each written measure doesn't match up with the first beat of each performed measure. A Five measure phrase of four is unnatural feeling and i can only think of one song that uses five measure phrases of four (Gut Feeling by Devo if you're curious) It is infinitely more natural to write this song in 5/4. I can't imagine any possible justification for doing it any other way.

[identitat soldat]

You guys claiming this song is in 1564/89 don't know anything about playing music and should stop pretending like you do. A majority of the song is in 5/4, and that's all there is to it.

Noobs.

[Oberon]

You guys claiming this song is in 1564/89 don't know anything about playing music and should stop pretending like you do. A majority of the song is in 5/4, and that's all there is to it.

Noobs.


I go to Berklee College of Music

So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies.

Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me.... You don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about.

This is how bad info gets passed around.

If you dont know about the topic....Don't make yourself sound like you do.

Cuz some people believe anything they read on T.D.N.






Seriously now, don't just come in here and start asserting that people are wrong, soldat, you have to back yourself no matter how wrong people are.

[Meter Minorca]

i goto purchase college of music for classical composition, i spend 12 hours a day studying music, and i know what im talking about. 5 bar phrasing does not have an awkward feeling, listen to Julia by the beatles, plenty of odd phrasing, listen to schoenberg, or reich, or ferneyhough, PLENTY of odd phrasing. In fact in classical music past 1930, 4 bar phrasing is seen as mechanical and neither natural or personal. Predicatable perhaps, dry maybe. But NOT natural. if you want pop examples, listen to "I Of the Mourning" or "let me give the world to you" by The Smashing Pumpkins, or the Persistence of Loss by NIN, or "Big Boys" by Elvis costello. classical examples the fugue section of ive's 4th, everything that ive mentioned already, almost anything pre-bach (josquin etc). odd phrasing doesn't have an unnatural feel, if you know how to use it well. In fact i'd say that 4 bar phrasing typically sounds box-ey and formulaic. perhaps it'll get you on the radio, but putting music into boxes of 4 bars or midsets is the worst thing for a musician to do, and you should know that by now. and btw, who's to say its 8th notes, shit it could be pentuplets in 2/4.

p.s. the reason stravinsky wrote it that way is because the performers couldn't perform it the other way, it was too confusing (granted this was 1910), so if its dumb to write your music so that someone can play it that perhaps every great composer is an idiot

[Oberon]

i goto purchase college of music for classical composition, i spend 12 hours a day studying music, and i know what im talking about. 5 bar phrasing does not have an awkward feeling, listen to Julia by the beatles, plenty of odd phrasing, listen to schoenberg, or reich, or ferneyhough, PLENTY of odd phrasing. In fact in classical music past 1930, 4 bar phrasing is seen as mechanical and neither natural or personal. Predicatable perhaps, dry maybe. But NOT natural. if you want pop examples, listen to "I Of the Mourning" or "let me give the world to you" by The Smashing Pumpkins, or the Persistence of Loss by NIN, or "Big Boys" by Elvis costello. classical examples the fugue section of ive's 4th, everything that ive mentioned already, almost anything pre-bach (josquin etc). odd phrasing doesn't have an unnatural feel, if you know how to use it well. In fact i'd say that 4 bar phrasing typically sounds box-ey and formulaic. perhaps it'll get you on the radio, but putting music into boxes of 4 bars or midsets is the worst thing for a musician to do, and you should know that by now. and btw, who's to say its 8th notes, shit it could be pentuplets in 2/4.



=P

Okay, so we're both music students, and you're able to out-cite me on the phrasing issue. I was referring to a particular type of 5 bar phrase, not just the 5 bar phrases in general, but i should've made that more clear.

I dont know why we're arguing. Lets take a step back. Do you actually believe putting this in a 5 bar phrase of 4 is the most natural way to notate this song?



Also, pulling out the "i'm studying comp" card is a little lame, k? I've refrained from doing it so far and i think so should you.

[Meter Minorca]

dude pulling the "i study music and nobody else know what their talking about" card is lame, and also i honestly felt the intro in four when i first heard it, the simplest meter to write it in would be 5/8, but performers would have more trouble reading it than in 4 with phrase markings and accents hence the edit to my previous post

"p.s. the reason stravinsky wrote it that way is because the performers couldn't perform it the other way, it was too confusing (granted this was 1910), so if its dumb to write your music so that someone can play it that perhaps every great composer is an idiot"

[Oberon]

dude pulling the "i study music and nobody else know what their talking about" card is lame, and also i honestly felt the intro in four when i first heard it, the simplest meter to write it in would be 5/8, but performers would have more trouble reading it than in 4 with phrase markings and accents


Are you referring to my "I work for The U.S. mint, so am i really getting a kick out of these replies" post? thats a fark cliche, it was meant to criticize the guy who posted right before it. It was in no way meant seriously. I'm sorry for the confusion.



As for the song: What kind of performers are we talking about? I think a person who can't read music thats in 5 shouldn't be attempting to perform music thats in 5. Compressing a song thats in 5 beats per meter to 4 beats per meter so that people who are more used to 4 can play it just seems to be a completely ass backwards way of doing things

[Meter Minorca]

the hypremeter of the phrase is 20 beats. 4/4 time is the most common signature, therefore the INTRO (only the intro by the way) can easily be written in 4, the rest of the song has much more jagged feel however (the phrases are groups of five beats as opposed to twenty), and a percussion section, so its harder to justify writing it in four. since people play four more often it is usually best to write in four when possible, you'll usually get a better performance out of them. and honestly because i felt it in 4 and you felt it in 5 simply proves the subjectivity of meter. like i said earlier whats the different between 2/4 tuplets and and 6/8 NOTHING. but i would usually write it in 2/4 because i can get a better variety of subdivisions that way. similer to the intro being in 4 or 5, it honestly doesn't matter, but i think a better performance would come from seeing it in 4

and this what i was talking about, but if it was about something else than i apologize "Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me.... You don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about."

[Oberon]

the hypremeter of the phrase is 20 beats. 4/4 time is the most common signature, therefore the INTRO (only the intro by the way) can easily be written in 4, the rest of the song has much more jagged feel however (the phrases are groups of five beats as opposed to twenty), and a percussion section, so its harder to justify writing it in four. since people play four more often it is usually best to write in four when possible, you'll usually get a better performance out of them. and honestly because i felt it in 4 and you felt it in 5 simply proves the subjectivity of meter. like i said earlier whats the different between 2/4 tuplets and and 6/8 NOTHING. but i would usually write it in 2/4 because i can get a better variety of subdivisions that way. similer to the intro being in 4 or 5, it honestly doesn't matter, but i think a better performance would come from seeing it in 4

and this what i was talking about "Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me.... You don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about."



yeah, sorry about that whole "trust me.... you don't" thing. run a google search on some of the phrases i used. everything i said in that post except the little thing at the bottom was a cliche phrase meant ironically. Its a Fark.com thing, and its spread to many parts of the internet, tho apparently not here. This is the original:

"I work for The U.S. Mint.

So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies.

Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me.... You don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about.

This is how bad info gets passed around.

If you dont know about the topic....Don't make yourself sound like you do.

Cuz Farkers believe everything they hear"


Its used to ridicule people who make claims of superior knowledge / information without backing it up at all.


"identidat soldat" made a post that basically said "everyone is wrong but me"... and i was taking issue with that.


As for the intro: there's a guitar part that is very very very clearly playing in 5 (or 10/8).

Listen for it.

[Meter Minorca]

also, the difference between 5/8 and 5/4 or 10/8 is that 5/8 is usually 123-12 or 12-123, 5/4 is usually 1-2-3-4-5 and 10/8 is usually 123-123-12-12 etc etc, 9/8 is usually the highest that # that most composers will goto, ive seen 12/8 (blurry lines between 3 and 4) but its usually best to think of 9/8 as a maximum

[Oberon]

also, the difference between 5/8 and 5/4 or 10/8 is that 5/8 is usually 123-12 or 12-123, 5/4 is usually 1-2-3-4-5 and 10/8 is usually 123-123-12-12 etc etc, 9/8 is usually the highest that # that most composers will goto, ive seen 12/8 (blurry lines between 3 and 4) but its usually best to think of 9/8 as a maximum



12/8 is used rather commonly as a compound quadruple meter. I think we come from two completely different schools of thought =)


I agree with what you say about the difference between 5/8 and 5/4 and 10/8.

[Meter Minorca]

i hear it, is a 12-123 pattern with a pedal point on d during the strong beats (thinking of it in 5/8), but its all legato enough that i think you can justify writing it in 4, alot of that as well is that i felt the pulse in 4 at first however. the 5 really became clear once the drums came in though, and the phrases started getting 5 beats. i mean if you think its easier to write it in 5, go for it, but id write it in 4

[Oberon]

i hear it, is a 12-123 pattern, but its all legato enough that i think you can justify writing it in 4, alot of that as well is that i felt the pulse in 4 at first however. the 5 really became clear once the drums came in though, and the phrases started getting 5 beats


The pattern i'm hearing is a 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2 3-4 pattern... and the little chimes on the drums follow it

[Meter Minorca]

no, listen for the pedal point on the d string, if you want to say its 5, thats the key, it clearly outline 12-123 well, your not wrong, but thats how i hear the 5

[aussiemart]

can someone explain how 5/4 or 6/8 works? (pretend Im a 3 year old).
Sad part is I can play schism and Eulogy perfectly along w/ the cd on guitar...just never took the time to learn the technical side of playing, yes im a tab whore.

LOL look at what youve done to this guy and me that dont know mutch about time sigs,,i now have silly monkey brain,,turned it to mush.

[Oberon]

no, listen for the pedal point on the d string, if you want to say its 5, thats the key, it clearly outline 12-123 well, your not wrong, but thats how i hear the 5


I could count it out loud for you, but i dont know how else to explain. The bass is phrasing over the bar lines, and the chiming drums match the guitar part i hear for a bit then leave it. There's a guitar part thats clearly in 1231231234 to my ears.

[Oberon]

I have officially learned this song. It is very obviously in 5/4. I will write up a bass tab and post it if anyone cares enough.

[5th Eye]

I have officially learned this song. It is very obviously in 5/4. I will write up a bass tab and post it if anyone cares enough.Try this. (http://mxtabs.net/tabs.php?path=Bass,t,2744,Tool,Vicarious,237147)

[Oberon]

Just read the first line of that tab, its already wrong.

[5th Eye]

No it isn't.

[Oberon]

No it isn't.
=P yeah it is. not significantly, but it is.

edit: anyway that tab doesn't have a dissection of the time feels, which would be the whole point of my tab (in keeping with the thread topic)

edit 2: Okay, on second listen, i admit that its not wrong. But its not right either ;(

[5th Eye]

What??

[Oberon]

What??



All the notes are right. But its still not correct ;(


I lose, though.

[5th Eye]

'Kay.

[138148]

I could count it out loud for you, but i dont know how else to explain. The bass is phrasing over the bar lines, and the chiming drums match the guitar part i hear for a bit then leave it. There's a guitar part thats clearly in 1231231234 to my ears.

Yeah, I agree, the guitar part definitely accents 123-123-1234 or 123-123-12-12. From the perspective of playing the guitar, it wouldn't make sense to notate this as 4 count instead of 5. And doing so just because it works out in the end is just confusing.

The whole point of time signature notation is to impart useful rhythmic information to the players, right? Transcribing in 5/4 provides the same accent pattern for each measure while transcribing in 4/4 would not.

[shifty50fs]

i hear it, is a 12-123 pattern with a pedal point on d during the strong beats (thinking of it in 5/8), but its all legato enough that i think you can justify writing it in 4, alot of that as well is that i felt the pulse in 4 at first however. the 5 really became clear once the drums came in though, and the phrases started getting 5 beats. i mean if you think its easier to write it in 5, go for it, but id write it in 4


The riffs you're discussing are made up of 5 or 10 beat phrases. For all intents and purposes they are 5/4 or 10/8. The bass is in 5, the guitar is in 5, the chimes could appear to be in 4 I suppose, though I've never heard of a part being transcribed around a background percussion part.

Of course the riffs could be represented in 4 by accents, but speaking from a player's perspective, I'd be much happier playing in 5 than trying to keep track of a floating accent.

And the original post was simply asking generically what beat it was in. No need to get all technical on them.


00:00 to 1:33 - 10/8
1:33 to 1:40 - 12/8 (accented as 10+2/8 followed by 2+3+3+4/8)
1:40 to 2:15 - 10/8
2:15 to 2:19 - 12/8
2:19 to 2:21 - 10/8
2:21 to 2:35 - 12/8 7/8 9/8
2:35 to 2:39 - 12/8
2:39 to 3:08 - 10/8
3:08 to 3:25 - 12/8 7/8 9/8
3:25 to 6:27 - 10/8 (much easier to feel as 5/4)
6:27 to 6:50 - 12/8
6:50 to 6:57 - 10/8
6:57 to 7:09 - 4/8 (the switch from 10/8 to 4/8 is in the middle of a measure so you could place the change at a few different places depending on preference)

Should be fairly accurate and hopefully helpful to anyone with questions.