My first completely serious post since I joined this forum.

[Systolic]

"She never told a lie,
Well, might of told a lie.
But never lived one.
Didn’t have a life.
Didn’t have a life.
But surely saved one."

It has finally reached me what these lyrics signify. This song is very special to me, despite how new it is. My grandfather died about a month or so ago from lung cancer. He had suffered from cancer as far back as I can remember. Despite this disability, however, he was always active. He was a workaholic in every sense of the word, and worked all the time, in every way possible, except for when it interfered with God and his utterly undying faith in God and Christ. He was an ideal Christian, and as much as Christianity is frowned upon in these forums, I have no shame in saying that he was the primary influence in my decision to follow Christ. For those of you who do not know, I am a worship leader for a Methodist Church in Augusta Georgia. I would like to consider myself strong in my faith, though I know that I am not as strong as I could be, or as strong as my grandfather was.

For years, I was an agnostic. Full blown agnostic. I had no desire to establish any kind of relationship with any kind of God. It was all bull as far as I was concerned. Everyone knew. As I'm sure many of the people here have come to know about me, I like attention. Its just part of who I am. (Please don't let that aspect of me distract from my point here, though. I hope that there is merit in what I am saying.) So, I made it completely evident to those around me that I had no interest in God. I shoved my anti-theological theories down everyone's throats, my family, my friends, my co-workers... everyone. I always heard things from people like, "I'll pray for you" or "God loves you anyway, Zach"... but none of those statements spoke to me like my grandfather did. My grandfather knew that I was an agnostic as well, and he never judged me, or renounced any of my thoughts or actions. He would simply point things out to me that I should consider blessings... the smallest things, like food to eat, or a bed to sleep on. He would simply say on occasion things like "God has blessed you with that bed, you know." or "God could have kept you from eating at all today if he had wanted." He never argued his points, and he never made his points argueable. He just made the simplest remarks about the simplest things. The simplicity of his comments befuddled me, and they always stuck. It drove me crazy. I thought i had things under control emotionally and mentally. I thought I didn't need God, but these small things always ate away at me... until one day, I broke down and asked him what God wanted from me. The rest is history. He explained everything to me, despite the fact that I had heard the stories and read the Bible. He explained it all to me again... and he guided me to believeing in Christ. He lived an ideal example, and I honestly cannot think of one immoral thing that he did throughout the whole time I knew him... and I knew him for 19 years... The whole time I watched him suffer, and weaken.... until last month, one week before he died, he told me what he thought about who I had become... and he told me that he had accomplished one of the goals in his life by helping me learn about Christ, and that it allowed him to die in peace knowing that I was going to see him again someday. My grandfather loved me with all of his heart, and through his unconditional love I was given something to believe in. My grandfather didn't have a life, but surely saved one. Perhaps Maynard feels the same way.

I know that there will be some cold and cruel people who have a smart-aleck remark to make about this post, and I cannot stop you from making it, but this subject means a lot to me, and this song has given me a perfect actor by which to express my feelings about my faith and my grandfather.

Thank you for reading.

EDIT: for sake of argument, I have changed the word Atheist to Agnostic, since I think it may suit better to what I believed.

[Garguantua]

I read your post all the way through, and at no point did I feel like like belittling you.
It takes courage to post something like that. Especially here. Good for you.

Everyone has a story to tell, and I might have mocked you in my youth, but I know exactly what you are talking about now.

That's really cool, that you would share that. To be honest, I was an atheist, like you, but I chose a different path to ....how to say....enlightenment? No. That sounds so pretentious. I am a little more forgiving, maybe open to, people's belief systems.

But good for you. Glad you have peace. My journey is continuing, as we speak.
I just don't feel that Christianity is for me. I want to try other routes to a sense of the divine.

But your story is a positive.

Thanks.

[T-13h]

My mum is a "good Christian" who has schizoprenia. Seriously.

RIP

But I hear: "Ignorant fibbers in the congretation...ignorance... you were the light and the way they only read about...ten thousand days in the fire is long enough...you're going home... you're the only one who can hold hold your head up high.... Fetch me the Spirit, the Son, and the Father;

tell them their pillar of faith has ascended ,

it's my time now, my time now, give me my... GIVE ME MY WINGS...."

[Andorion]

For years, I was an atheist. Full blown atheist. I had no desire to establish any kind of relationship with any kind of God. ... So, I made it completely evident to those around me that I had no interest in God. I shoved my anti-theological theories down everyone's throats, my family, my friends, my co-workers... everyone.

I hate to be "that guy" but this really gets under my skin. It's people like you who give real science-minded materialist atheists a bad name. Before you found god, you weren't an atheist - you were an incredulous theist. There is no chance of a proper atheist "finding god," and one would never say things like "anti-theological" or that they have "no interest in god" or "no desire to ... god." You were a backwards-thinker all along, assuming the existence of a god and then subsequently denying his existence - but making that first baseless assumption none the less.

I'm glad you can relate to this song and I'm in no way belittling your love of your grandfather or questioning his faith. As far as I know, Maynard is no christian, and if he believes in anything it's not the christian god. His mother sounds like she was as religious as your grandfather (maybe even more so, after the stroke) but the way in which maynard was "saved" is certainly different.

[zoomster]

good post, good read good story...

[Systolic]

but the way in which maynard was "saved" is certainly different.

The lyrics say that she "saved one".. and Maynard makes no specification to whom, so from a poetic standpoint it makes it seem like he is reflecting upon himself... I don't know. I could go into how I think that this is the last Tool album, and all sorts of things like that, but I did not intend on this thread turning into an argument.

[Garguantua]

Perhaps Systolic was never what you call a proper atheist.

But that's ok. I was a proper atheist. I know what that is. Humanistic and schooled in the scientific method. I still subscribe to evolution and biology and modern cosmology. But I find myself asking more metaphysical questions lately. Not so much about "creators", or intelligent design, how we came to be, but about moral questions. How to live and how to behave during our mortal time. Whether that might make a difference to future generations. Some find that Judeo-Christian or Buddhist beliefs help them reach that point where they feel good about their lives, and what they do with them.

I'm having that discussion with myself as we speak.

It's a journey. A lonesome journey, but not an unpleasant journey.

[T-13h]

Fuck off, children.

[Systolic]

I do admit that throughout all of my questioning and faithless endeavors, I felt like something was missing in my life... and now I don't feel that way. I feel more accomplished.

[T-13h]

Ok, nevermind. Fuck off, everyone.

[Systolic]

Ok, nevermind. Fuck off, everyone.

Why do you say that?

[T-13h]

Why do you say that?

Why did Father gives these humans free will...?

[Systolic]

Why did Father gives these humans free will...?


Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see your point.

[Garguantua]

I do admit that throughout all of my questioning and faithless endeavors, I felt like something was missing in my life... and now I don't feel that way. I feel more accomplished.

Systolic, I would like to advise a little. If you will let me.

Be wary of feeling "full". I am sure that many theologians, nevermind the lay person, feel somewhat ambivalent and doubtful, occasionally. That is healthy.

But if you use your theology as a guide, and only a guide, not a straightjacket, I feel you might discover what it means to reach further towards the divine, if you can honestly ask yourself questions.

I think that is important. To be honest with yourself and feelings, and not be afraid of doubt or slippage of your faith.

EDIT: nevermind that T3 guy. He's a troll..

[T-13h]

She's going to die crazy and rot in the ground you stupid asshole.

[Systolic]

She's going to die crazy and rot in the ground you stupid asshole.


Ohhhhhh.... I think I see where you're going with this (If you are following the pattern that I think you are.)

I would hate to feel like I'm sure you have because of her. I really mean that. I don't know what you believe, but I certainly hope that she hasn't impacted your view on Christianity. Its not as bad as people claim it is in its purest form.

[T-13h]

Systolic, I would like to advise a little. If you will let me.

Be wary of feeling "full". I am sure that many theologians, nevermind the lay person, feel somewhat ambivalent and doubtful, occasionally. That is healthy.

But if you use your theology as a guide, and only a guide, not a straightjacket, I feel you might discover what it means to reach further towards the divine, if you can honestly ask yourself questions.

I think that is important. To be honest with yourself and feelings, and not be afraid of doubt or slippage of your faith.

EDIT: nevermind that T3 guy. He's a troll..

Die.

[T-13h]

Ohhhhhh.... I think I see where you're going with this (If you are following the pattern that I think you are.)

I would hate to feel like I'm sure you have because of her. I really mean that. I don't know what you believe, but I certainly hope that she hasn't impacted your view on Christianity. Its not as bad as people claim it is in its purest form.

You're going to die crazy too you stupid asshole.

[Systolic]

Systolic, I would like to advise a little. If you will let me.

Be wary of feeling "full". I am sure that many theologians, nevermind the lay person, feel somewhat ambivalent and doubtful, occasionally. That is healthy.

But if you use your theology as a guide, and only a guide, not a straightjacket, I feel you might discover what it means to reach further towards the divine, if you can honestly ask yourself questions.

I think that is important. To be honest with yourself and feelings, and not be afraid of doubt or slippage of your faith.

EDIT: nevermind that T3 guy. He's a troll..


I know what you mean. I don't try and prevent doubt.. but the influence and memory of my grandfather is a very good crutch for me. Its hard to deny my faith because of him, especially if I consider our last conversation that we ever had... it was really powerful.

[Systolic]

You're going to die crazy too you stupid asshole.


You're not impressing anyone.

[T-13h]

You're not impressing anyone.

Right in two...

[T-13h]

T-13h, where's your anger coming from?

The Father, I would assume.

[Garguantua]

I know what you mean. I don't try and prevent doubt.. but the influence and memory of my grandfather is a very good crutch for me. Its hard to deny my faith because of him, especially if I consider our last conversation that we ever had... it was really powerful.

I'm sure that's true, and not to be dismissed or forgotten. I have had similar experiences with dying family members. It can be a powerful ...how to say....paradigm shifter. But it's always wise to approach these questions in a calm and peaceful frame of mind.
But I'm sure you have done this. I can tell by the way you posted.

At any rate. A theological discussion would not be productive on an internet forum.

But let me say, you seem like an openminded, caring, and thoughtful person. Regardless of your beliefs, that's what's imporant, I think. I try to approach these quandaries in the same fashion.

But good luck to you and hope you have real peace. I try to do the same.
Not easy and sometimes you are tested sorely, but good luck.

[khemystri]

I have an observation (could be way off base)..... Seems to me that
track 3 is Maynard writing as if sitting in the room with his mother as
she lies dying.... as she makes peace.

and this track (4) seems as if from Judth's perspective as a posthumous
declaration from Judith herself... As if Maynard is writing this from how
he forsees his beloved mother taking that journey.

Beautiful song.

[T-13h]

Spare me.

[wax]

I can share your feelings very well...

It's very hard for me to listen to this song. my mother died 7 years ago (also when I was eleven) and everytime i hear the song all the feeling's come back...

maybe i can take it as some kind of therapy, it's my favorite song on the CD right now, even if its very hard to take...

(sorry if my english is bad, but i'm from austria)

[panocha21]

Great story Systolic.

And this comes from an atheist.

But my vewpoint is like this: Human ego will always strive for reasoning. But human reasoning is different than the real world reasoning. Real world reasoning is cold, bloodless, brutal, and unforgiving to the weak. Reason being there is no force to stop it. There is no God to keep Judith from the fire for 10,000 days. The force that won out was the cancer that slowly and painfully ate away at her flesh. As I'd expect, this had a big impact on Maynard, the way your Grandfather's death impacted you.

But rather than point to an afterlife to ease the pain, we must continue this arduous path that humanity has taken in order to better our short-lived stay on the Earth. In the process, other species, other animals will feel our wrath. The pig that gives us fuel, the cow that makes us strong again. Make no mistake about it. As human utility increases, all other life will suffer, must worse than Judith and your Grandfather. Think about that for a second, step back, and keep things in perspective. Or as Maynard would say, "Crucify the Ego."

I don't know what Maynard's beliefs are. We've been baffled by his work for years. But to me, the song makes more sense under this light: Maynard is fulfilling Judith's wishes and beliefs, only because he loved her so much. He is not ashamed to speak such words he might've otherwise been because the words meant so much to Judith.

[Garguantua]

Good post Panocha.

It bears repeating that we are not the only "inheritors" of this planet.

[khemystri]

Spare me.

Is that directed at me??? (please say yes)

[T-13h]

Is that directed at me??? (please say yes)

Do go on...

[MypugsAreSmarterThanYou]

Systolic,there's nothing missing in your life.

[khemystri]

Do go on...

Spare you what????

Your uncle's whiskey breath on the back of your neck at age 6
or spare you of your secret "Maroon 5" MP3 collection....

Dude I hope you collapse on the christmas tree on christmas morning...
while your photo-ruining, oversized headed, down syndromed, spawn
eat sugar cookies with a dumb glazed look over their faces.

watching you tumble over.... dropping ornaments and dreams all
over the ground.....

Step in a bucket of AIDS and drunk drive into a schoolyard during recess....

Too mean???
Im sorry..... Just kidding....

Too real????
Im sorry.... Seek therapy.

:-)

[T-13h]

Spare you what????

Your uncle's whiskey breath on the back of your neck at age 6
or spare you of your secret "Maroon 5" MP3 collection....

Dude I hope you collapse on the christmas tree on christmas morning...
while your photo-ruining, oversized headed, down syndromed, spawn
eat sugar cookies with a dumb glazed look over their faces.

watching you tumble over.... dropping ornaments and dreams all
over the ground.....

Step in a bucket of AIDS and drunk drive into a schoolyard during recess....

Too mean???
Im sorry..... Just kidding....

Too real????
Im sorry.... Seek therapy.

:-)

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[Chuck_Of_Wah]

Systolic, I don't think it took courage to come out with everything you said in your post, like some of the others here thought.

Nevertheless, your post was thought-out and your story is certainly a moving one. What DOES need to be openly underlined is the fact that you decided to share your experience with us. In today's world, people's honesty and... hmmm... openness, if you will, is a noteworthy trait.

Thanks.


To the ppl still talking to this T-13h fella... Why bother? Give it a rest, it's not going anywhere. He isn't here to reflect on Systolic's post. He's got too much free time.