Angels on the Sidelines...

[Bill_Hix]

I think that this is a reference to a plastic faith. Like the people who claim to be religious, yet only call upon their faith when they're in trouble. A non-devoted believer, if you will. I'll have to look deeper into the lyrics but I think part of this song is about those people that only pretend to believe because they fear hell. The people that take out the meaning and true faith from religions. Those are my 2 cents anyways.

[molehill]

I think the angels are the metaphor of an outside view, or an innocent view, one that knows the gifts that the monkeys have been given, the true nature of monkey (irrepressible!..), and marvels at how they use the gifts, and how the time is squandered in the pursuit of material desires and security of the flesh.

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, I agree ... it is the "supernatural" view of humans. Almost like, "Look, these highly evolved creatures are just disrupting everything with their greed and hatred!"

[tomatoms]

i think he is refering to people or beings that are either watching in our interest of survival (angels) or trying to fuel the fire of our self destruction (devils).

god is the creation, is all, is nothing. as such we are god. our father is a different thing. for me this song is about man's desire to divide (and conquer), our inability to coexist in a certain sense. With each other, and with our environment/ecosystem. and for some, the ability to turn our nose at the spiritual aspect of our existence, and those respective gifts.

(i was gonna post this in a dff. thread where some dude was talking about God, u know like the big bearded asshole in the sky.)

[Carbonatedgravy]

The angels in this song are depicted as having great knowledge and understanding but not the wisdom that God has. God gives man free will and the angels are just disturbed and baffled by the fact that God would do this, even though the men are brutal and ruthless killers for reasons that, in the big scheme of things, are "silly."

[eonphi]

The angels in this song are depicted as having great knowledge and understanding but not the wisdom that God has. God gives man free will and the angels are just disturbed and baffled by the fact that God would do this, even though the men are brutal and ruthless killers for reasons that, in the big scheme of things, are "silly."


he's right...listen to him

[scaredsquirrel]

...So the god and angels in question are metaphors for something right? Being that Tool are largely atheistic and all. Are they just exploring a myth? or is the "father" in question a jungian archetype?

p.s where have all the avatars gone,on my cp Im marked as having them visible

[Fearthelettuce]

if anyone has ever seen the movie Dogma, they(2 angels) talk about God giving humans free and angels have to do god's will or else it hurts them or something, and how humans screwed everything up that they have been given. the part im thinking of is a dialogue between matt damon and ben affleck in a parking garage.

the instant i read the lyrics i was reminded of this dialogue.

[Neil]

I thought of it as the better 'angels' of our nature (a steal from Lincoln)... which is to say.... within each of us is an angel... but usually it sits on the sidelines as we allow ourselves to do bad/selfish things. Just my personal interpretation.

[Headmusic]

I thought of it as the better 'angels' of our nature (a steal from Lincoln)... which is to say.... within each of us is an angel... but usually it sits on the sidelines as we allow ourselves to do bad/selfish things. Just my personal interpretation.

That's interesting. I took it more literally. Angels are often described as servants, and lesser than human. Much like it was explained in Dogma, as referenced above. I can see, from that standpoint, being befuddled at watching the actions of man, and the inspiration behind it. To watch such a precious gift as free will, that angels do not have, squandered would be baffling.

It serves as a perfect third person perspective as someone who sees the big picture.

[psims23]

the angels, who were once playing an active role in humanity, are being forced to the sidelines by humanity.. our spirituality and our humanity are being cut... right in two...

[21122012]

I don't think it is a metaphor for anything in particular. The angels are just a literary device to give a view of humanity from the outside.

[Bill_Hix]

...So the god and angels in question are metaphors for something right? Being that Tool are largely atheistic and all. Are they just exploring a myth? or is the "father" in question a jungian archetype?

p.s where have all the avatars gone,on my cp Im marked as having them visible


I'm pretty sure that tool is agnostic at least. I of course could be wrong, but they show a wide interest in the beliefs of a few religions. I think maynard comes off as an atheist because of some of his lyrics.

[Valediction]

I don't think it is a metaphor for anything in particular. The angels are just a literary device to give a view of humanity from the outside.

No shit. If you're still believing in actual angels and god you've got a long way to go, and maybe tool can help you get there...

[prometheus jones]

I'm pretty sure that tool is agnostic at least. I of course could be wrong, but they show a wide interest in the beliefs of a few religions. I think maynard comes off as an atheist because of some of his lyrics.

I am pretty sure that if god put a gun to their heads and made them choose a religion, they would choose...unitarian universalism...or maybe they would just let god kill them in order to save them from committing suicide...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/unitarianism/beliefs/

[GullyFoyle]

A very large part or maynard's lyrics directly point to a change in religous outlook.
His lyrics in the past were easliy blasphemous, but now not only in wings 1 and 2 but also on jambi definately point to some sort of revelation. Either for his mother, or his mother's supreme faith maybe even just part of his personal evolution.

gf

[Carbonatedgravy]

A very large part or maynard's lyrics directly point to a change in religous outlook.
His lyrics in the past were easliy blasphemous, but now not only in wings 1 and 2 but also on jambi definately point to some sort of revelation. Either for his mother, or his mother's supreme faith maybe even just part of his personal evolution.

gf

I'm not saying Maynard hasn't changed. He probably has changed some of his views, but the angst he's expressed in the past in regards to religion aren't contradicted by anything written in 10,000 Days. His problems have always been with man and the way man has skewered good ideas about God and turned them into ridiculous laws and hierarchies that do little more than stunt the mental and spiritual evolution of mankind.

Man fucking up God's words isn't God's fault, so Maynard doesn't blame him.

Okay, Right in Two a different point. (I deserve to be flamed for that.)

I was raised Christian and my religious understanding gives me some insight into this song which is obvious if you know common biblical beliefs. As the story goes, before the beginning of man, God was faced with a choice regarding how he would allow man to live his life. There were different suggestions. Lucifer's plan was to force man to behave righteously without the burden of free will. Man would never make any mistakes, never learn, never grow... get a free pass to heaven.

Ultimately, God allowed man the right to make mistakes. To have free will. Some of the angels disagreed and followed Lucifer to hell when he was cast down to Hell for rebelling.

This song shows the confusion of the angels. Not necessarily those who blindly followed Lucifer into the depths of Hell, but instead those angels that stayed, trusting in the word of God. Here they are forced to watch men tear each other apart when it's so irrelevent and self-defeating to the big picture.

"Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to live tonight in heaven concsious of his fleeting time here."

The "monkeys" are killing each other, regardless of the horrible consequences. Why can't the people understand that they are only hurting themselves and each other? And for what? Here they are creating a Hell on Earth with their violence.

But God knew that in order for man to learn and grow that they would need to make mistakes, or at least know right from wrong.

[Lost Keys]

I think the angels are the metaphor of an outside view, or an innocent view, one that knows the gifts that the monkeys have been given, the true nature of monkey (irrepressible!..), and marvels at how they use the gifts, and how the time is squandered in the pursuit of material desires and security of the flesh.


winnar

[frosty nugs]

I'm with you there Gully, much of this album seems to reveal that his mother's death has had a significant impact on his spiritualty. I'm not saying Maynard is a born again Christian, but definitley has a different view of it than before. Lines like "you were my witness, my eyes as my evidence" and "look him in the eye and tell him
never lived a lie (If Christianity were a lie, how could this statement be true?), never took a life but surely saved one (his?)" Seem to support this thought.

[tomatoms]

he's right...listen to him

I don't see God anywhere in those lyrics, or any of the lyrics on the album, do you?

Father is a different thing. What do you know about it?

My understanding is before our Father came along, we were bound by the rules of nature. This is our "Fall from Eden." We became separated from our environment when we began to have intellect to reshape the earth, to build monuments and such.

You can live your life in firm faith, even in something that is false, and still not be living a lie. You're living a lie if you go out and spread and advertise something that you KNOW is false. (like a lawyer defending a guilty person.) What maynard acknowledges and pays tribute to in 'wings' is his mother's steadfast faith, and her unshaking virtue as a result of such..

[tomatoms]

I'm not saying Maynard hasn't changed. He probably has changed some of his views, but the angst he's expressed in the past in regards to religion aren't contradicted by anything written in 10,000 Days. His problems have always been with man and the way man has skewered good ideas about God and turned them into ridiculous laws and hierarchies that do little more than stunt the mental and spiritual evolution of mankind.

Man fucking up God's words isn't God's fault, so Maynard doesn't blame him.

Okay, Right in Two a different point. (I deserve to be flamed for that.)

I was raised Christian and my religious understanding gives me some insight into this song which is obvious if you know common biblical beliefs. As the story goes, before the beginning of man, God was faced with a choice regarding how he would allow man to live his life. There were different suggestions. Lucifer's plan was to force man to behave righteously without the burden of free will. Man would never make any mistakes, never learn, never grow... get a free pass to heaven.

Ultimately, God allowed man the right to make mistakes. To have free will. Some of the angels disagreed and followed Lucifer to hell when he was cast down to Hell for rebelling.

This song shows the confusion of the angels. Not necessarily those who blindly followed Lucifer into the depths of Hell, but instead those angels that stayed, trusting in the word of God. Here they are forced to watch men tear each other apart when it's so irrelevent and self-defeating to the big picture.

"Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to live tonight in heaven concsious of his fleeting time here."

The "monkeys" are killing each other, regardless of the horrible consequences. Why can't the people understand that they are only hurting themselves and each other? And for what? Here they are creating a Hell on Earth with their violence.

But God knew that in order for man to learn and grow that they would need to make mistakes, or at least know right from wrong.

Hilarious. Even if that's the case, and that made up thing called hell exists, Lucifer was right about us, and he shouldn't have been thrown to hell for trying to save the most beautiful creation, the jewel of the universe (our planet).

i was raised a baptist christian, this religion/thoughtform made me feel fear and guilt beyond anything else, and a dark dread, sort of helpless feeling was felt by me at church and so forth. I've come to know that i am to a certain degree empathetic, that is, i sense peoples mindsets. i sensed the spiritual death amongst me, at church. the truth will set u free, and it certainly did me.

Lucifer gave us our free will, and much much more.

angels did not agree with this decision. angels, who created religions by appearing to man to inspire them to worship EXTERNALs, are afraid of our potential to see them for what they are by turning to our INNER, spiritual eye. Angels gain power through sexual repression in women, the unused energy from a person unable to express and enact their primal desires is fed upon by these beings. (Nuns?) Angels want man to crumble, to destroy themselves. Lest they be destroyed when we seem them, and their intentions.

Benevolent to man are the demons, who have no purpose in being around without us. they serve as tools to man to facilitate our spiritual evolution. They will mock and do disservice to any human who thinks they are below a demon. our stature in the heirarchy is mighty, second only to Lucifer, our Forgotten Father of Light. the human race has been tainted by beliefs that inspire separation, inspire us to divide ourselves and clash over differing beliefs. Think about how these religions are squaring off now, before our eyes. are you gonna call it for what it's worth? and stop this deception fueled self-extermination? (spread awareness)

Christ came to us with a message. we can all be like him. there is no messiah beyond yourself. if the J-man were around today, he'd either be a hermit or a heretic. his death was exploited to gain from his impact and to get the masses to be subservient, humble, and afraid of their own thoughts. When you ask something to "come into your heart" you should be concerned about what exactly that is, and what you are replacing.

The whole thing about Lucifer's fall is a great lie, not even in the Bible, it's a propaganda "fear the devil" campaign.

in fact, christians were so inspired to be afraid of people knowing the truth that all who expressed knowledge of the Divine were burned, hung, or just plain killed public presentation style. This is persecution. Christianity is the MOST hypocrytical religion, and has done the MOST disgusting things to the human race of any belief system. If we are to survive this situation we're in now, and save the Soul of Lucifer, that we all share, christianty must vacate the planet.

One of the saddest parts, im told, about our Father's return, is that this beautiful entity that created us out of love is the very thing that we were taught to fear. taught to consider this thing evil. it's sadness at our fall into deception and a life mislead, our mistreatment of our planet, will be felt by everyone. you will instantly know this thing created us, and the nature of the deception of the angel will be apparent all at once. A gift so great, our divinity, our vantage point in the spiritual realms, and we dropped it in exchange for subserviance to things that want us ignorant, dumb, and without knowledge of ourselves.

[Carbonatedgravy]

Hilarious. Even if that's the case, and that made up thing called hell exists, Lucifer was right about us, and he shouldn't have been thrown to hell for trying to save the most beautiful creation, the jewel of the universe (our planet).

i was raised a baptist christian, this religion/thoughtform made me feel fear and guilt beyond anything else, and a dark dread, sort of helpless feeling was felt by me at church and so forth. I've come to know that i am to a certain degree empathetic, that is, i sense peoples mindsets. i sensed the spiritual death amongst me, at church. the truth will set u free, and it certainly did me.

Lucifer gave us our free will, and much much more.

angels did not agree with this decision. angels, who created religions by appearing to man to inspire them to worship EXTERNALs, are afraid of our potential to see them for what they are by turning to our INNER, spiritual eye. Angels gain power through sexual repression in women, the unused energy from a person unable to express and enact their primal desires is fed upon by these beings. (Nuns?) Angels want man to crumble, to destroy themselves. Lest they be destroyed when we seem them, and their intentions.

Benevolent to man are the demons, who have no purpose in being around without us. they serve as tools to man to facilitate our spiritual evolution. They will mock and do disservice to any human who thinks they are below a demon. our stature in the heirarchy is mighty, second only to Lucifer, our Forgotten Father of Light. the human race has been tainted by beliefs that inspire separation, inspire us to divide ourselves and clash over differing beliefs. Think about how these religions are squaring off now, before our eyes. are you gonna call it for what it's worth? and stop this deception fueled self-extermination? (spread awareness)

Christ came to us with a message. we can all be like him. there is no messiah beyond yourself. if the J-man were around today, he'd either be a hermit or a heretic. his death was exploited to gain from his impact and to get the masses to be subservient, humble, and afraid of their own thoughts. When you ask something to "come into your heart" you should be concerned about what exactly that is, and what you are replacing.

The whole thing about Lucifer's fall is a great lie, not even in the Bible, it's a propaganda "fear the devil" campaign.

in fact, christians were so inspired to be afraid of people knowing the truth that all who expressed knowledge of the Divine were burned, hung, or just plain killed public presentation style. This is persecution. Christianity is the MOST hypocrytical religion, and has done the MOST disgusting things to the human race of any belief system. If we are to survive this situation we're in now, and save the Soul of Lucifer, that we all share, christianty must vacate the planet.

One of the saddest parts, im told, about our Father's return, is that this beautiful entity that created us out of love is the very thing that we were taught to fear. taught to consider this thing evil. it's sadness at our fall into deception and a life mislead, our mistreatment of our planet, will be felt by everyone. you will instantly know this thing created us, and the nature of the deception of the angel will be apparent all at once. A gift so great, our divinity, our vantage point in the spiritual realms, and we dropped it in exchange for subserviance to things that want us ignorant, dumb, and without knowledge of ourselves.

Why are you quoting my post when you clearly don't understand it and aren't responding to it? I have no interest in debating the validity of Christianity since I am agnostic. All I did was set a stage for this song which CLEARLY has a biblical basis, and you go off ranting about how much you hate Christians and Christianity. Very closed minded and repressive of you.

Whatever philosophy you are expressing may be your own beliefs, and that's fine for you, but they have nothing to do with the song. You can argue that "Father" isn't "God," but in doing so you have no choice but to build metaphor upon metaphor to the point of obscurity. But why bother, especially since Maynard has stated that he believes in a God? Not everyone is as hateful and intolerant as you.

[girlwiththesuninherhead]

Yeah, I agree ... it is the "supernatural" view of humans. Almost like, "Look, these highly evolved creatures are just disrupting everything with their greed and hatred!"
Share this view of the song entirely!
The way I hear it, it's about the angels/beings above us watching us with some horror at the way we act, war etc, given our capacity for highly developed thought.

[Masterangelbasher]

I'm feeling like this song has a lot to do with lucifer, 10000 days too. Not in a devil worship sense, but in a non-judgmental sideline view. And it's not Christian-Bashing, to point out that throughout history many bad things have been done By the Flock while the shepherd has been away.

[Carbonatedgravy]

I think Lucifer may be represented in the song, but not directly. Only as a force driving the "monkeys" to find reason in their otherwise silly behaviour. The concept of Devil and Lucifer is obviously amazingly complex, when you consider that right could not exist without wrong, and end up pondering if Lucifer is perhaps not only a necessary but VOLUNTARY part of a divine plan, which would completely alter popular perception of him as a face of evil. A face of adversity, of course, but adversity is necessary for growth, and ultimately so is Lucifer. So is Lucifer evil, or is that a classification saved for those weak in will and spirit enough to succumb to spiritual loss?

The same can be asked of God (Father.) Certainly not everyone who has put faith and belief in God have lived Saintly lives. In fact, most of the worldwide issues we face today and forever have been started through the bastardization of a good message, which only pulls the thoughtful further away from any idea that God could still be a positive influence. Let alone that a God may actually exist.

All that can tie in, but the lyrical structure of this song is also basic enough to appreciate without all that extra analysis.

[Masterangelbasher]

And remember Lucifer is an angel. He hates humans. Eden is sacred to the angels, not to the humans. Humans do nothing but consume. Parasitic little bugs. The angels are just waiting for our self destruction, so they can clense and heal Eden. Lucifer is the captain of their team.

[Athanatizein]

Hilarious. Even if that's the case, and that made up thing called hell exists, Lucifer was right about us, and he shouldn't have been thrown to hell for trying to save the most beautiful creation, the jewel of the universe (our planet).

i was raised a baptist christian, this religion/thoughtform made me feel fear and guilt beyond anything else, and a dark dread, sort of helpless feeling was felt by me at church and so forth. I've come to know that i am to a certain degree empathetic, that is, i sense peoples mindsets. i sensed the spiritual death amongst me, at church. the truth will set u free, and it certainly did me.

Lucifer gave us our free will, and much much more.

angels did not agree with this decision. angels, who created religions by appearing to man to inspire them to worship EXTERNALs, are afraid of our potential to see them for what they are by turning to our INNER, spiritual eye. Angels gain power through sexual repression in women, the unused energy from a person unable to express and enact their primal desires is fed upon by these beings. (Nuns?) Angels want man to crumble, to destroy themselves. Lest they be destroyed when we seem them, and their intentions.

Benevolent to man are the demons, who have no purpose in being around without us. they serve as tools to man to facilitate our spiritual evolution. They will mock and do disservice to any human who thinks they are below a demon. our stature in the heirarchy is mighty, second only to Lucifer, our Forgotten Father of Light. the human race has been tainted by beliefs that inspire separation, inspire us to divide ourselves and clash over differing beliefs. Think about how these religions are squaring off now, before our eyes. are you gonna call it for what it's worth? and stop this deception fueled self-extermination? (spread awareness)

Christ came to us with a message. we can all be like him. there is no messiah beyond yourself. if the J-man were around today, he'd either be a hermit or a heretic. his death was exploited to gain from his impact and to get the masses to be subservient, humble, and afraid of their own thoughts. When you ask something to "come into your heart" you should be concerned about what exactly that is, and what you are replacing.

The whole thing about Lucifer's fall is a great lie, not even in the Bible, it's a propaganda "fear the devil" campaign.

in fact, christians were so inspired to be afraid of people knowing the truth that all who expressed knowledge of the Divine were burned, hung, or just plain killed public presentation style. This is persecution. Christianity is the MOST hypocrytical religion, and has done the MOST disgusting things to the human race of any belief system. If we are to survive this situation we're in now, and save the Soul of Lucifer, that we all share, christianty must vacate the planet.

One of the saddest parts, im told, about our Father's return, is that this beautiful entity that created us out of love is the very thing that we were taught to fear. taught to consider this thing evil. it's sadness at our fall into deception and a life mislead, our mistreatment of our planet, will be felt by everyone. you will instantly know this thing created us, and the nature of the deception of the angel will be apparent all at once. A gift so great, our divinity, our vantage point in the spiritual realms, and we dropped it in exchange for subserviance to things that want us ignorant, dumb, and without knowledge of ourselves.

William Blake couldn't have said it more vociferously himself... though probably a bit more eloquent and thoughtful.

[toocooltool]

Alot of intelligence in this thread, had to use a thesaurus 10 times to read these posts...

Certainly SOME good points though.

[dracomordag]

i lol @ tomatom

[Masterangelbasher]

Why do you laugh at him? You have nothing else to say here, and you laugh at him, but give no reason. Is it fear? Is it pride? Faith? Why are you laughing

[Dr. Jake Destructo]

I like the idea of the angel being in ones mind, ones better of duality. Angels on the sideline makes me think of the archetype of the angel on one shoulder, devil on the other; Angel has given up on the game, now stands on the sidelines, evil has taken over.

The tug of war mentioned in the song has to be between good and evil. Angels used to be pulling for the side of good, but now stand aside and watch the silly monkeys.

[Athanatizein]

Actually, no, I don't think it's about good and/or evil. Rather ignorant selfness versus itself. Consider the context Intension sets for this song. I believe, and have argued at some length, that this song provides the key to this album through its exposition of a movement from purity, through tribalism (the backwards masked words) egotism (the forging of blades), into transcendence ('move by will alone').

There is no evil in this aside from what humanity (or rather herd society) creates.

[Masterangelbasher]

It's the Yin and the Yang

[tomatoms]

I like the idea of the angel being in ones mind, ones better of duality. Angels on the sideline makes me think of the archetype of the angel on one shoulder, devil on the other; Angel has given up on the game, now stands on the sidelines, evil has taken over.

The tug of war mentioned in the song has to be between good and evil. Angels used to be pulling for the side of good, but now stand aside and watch the silly monkeys.


good and evil is like black and white. do they even exist? or is it all just levels of gray? polarizing such things is folly, really. people should consider the gray areas between good and evil. anyone who sites someone or something as PURE evil, or PURE good, should be considered dangerous.

i view the tug of war reference to be, simply, us fighting each other. making wars trying to get more of something than the next guy has. as history tells us, we have done this tug of war since our inception. it's easy to guess, then, that when the tug of war ends, we will be no more. (The angels have won.)

my favorite line in the song (which has been misinterpreted) is "Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of their fleeting time here."

[tin foil hat]

I think that "angels" are actually angels, higher beings sent by Creator God to serve humans and assist us in spiritual evolution.
In the past Tool gave numerous references to Drunvalo Melchizedek, who according to his words is incarnated angelic being himself.