Vicarious vs. Stinkfist Round 1.

[auralassassin]

Stinkfist:

The aenema album is about the evolution of humankind to the next level and how mankind itself is merely a stepping stone toward that higher consciousness. It begins with Stinkfist which, like a lot of Keenans songs, is layered richly with symbolism and metaphor. On the surface it seems to be using fist-fucking as a metaphor for trying to connect in this modern life where we are so alienated that we are nearly numb. We've reached a critical point in our evolution. ("Something has to change, undeniable dilemma") We need to feel something to even know we're alive anymore. I like the way one of the verses goes from finger deep to knuckle deep to elbow deep and ends with shoulder deep. It's visual and disturbing. And then the way "turn around and take my hand" could mean either inside you or like a lover extending comfort. All in all this whole album is an onion full of metaphysical concepts, Jungian symbolism and human evolutionary ideas. The more you peel away the more you'll see. It's one of my personal favorites. We're almost completely numb by the end... then we come to Lateralus, which is all about the split that this causes between other people, and OURSELVES... which leads us into--

Vicarious:

In my opinion this song is about how we as a society have FINALLY become so desensitized to all that is around us and in order to satisfy our desires we must constantly push the boundaries ever further.


Could you at least admit that your desire to believe,
The angels in the hearts of men.
Pull your head on out,
Your head believes so give a listen.
Shouldn't have to say it all again.
The universe is hostile,
So impersonal.
Devour to survive, so it is,
So its always been.

We all feed on tragedy.
It's like bood to vampire.
Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies.
Much better you than I.


I think I might like the story being told here, if it wasn't the Autobiography of the planet we live on...so remember when you slate this track as being "too political" that you are calling "Stinkfist" too political. And Stinkfist is a fucking ACE track... so you would be a fucking idiot.


Thoughts... feelings... rebuttle?

[xpandnz]

good theory.
We ALL NEED IT TOO DONT LIE

[BlindVisionary]

Very good theory, Stinkfist still pwns Vicarious imo...

Too early to use my brain, sry...

[F!end]

humankind is fucked up =)

[auralassassin]

Not just fucked up... FUCKED!

I'm thinking that Shouldn't have to say it all again. says a lot. I think that the lyrics are so direct this time because he's tired of saying it. This track is like taking someone and shaking them and slapping them in the face with the truth. NOBODY likes to be told that what they are doing is wrong. Maybe that is why so many people don't like this track.

NOBODY likes being preached to. People will find any reason to hate that which is preaching. Look at the concept of Christianity: before the dogma and the hatred for that which is NOT Christian comes into play--there is wisdom to be found there. Once it becomes preaching... once people start passing parable off as FACT, people instantly reject the wisdom, because the dogma is attached. Not because they think that it is wrong--but because they don't wanna hear it, wrong or not.

That said, I'm not a Christian--but I find wisdom wherever it is... and in this case, it's been with Maynard and his lyrics.

He "shouldn't have to say it all again" but "we won't give pause until the BLOOD IS FLOWING"

Whose blood? Our own.

Just my 2 cents.

[Montague]

a lot of people are saying that Vicarious has lyrics like APC, but heres my theory:

Maynard got tired of/freaked out by geeks approaching him with "the holy gift" theories and bullshit like that and decided the joke (the one you guys fail to acknowledge 99% of the time) had gone too far and decided to write better lyrics again.

[auralassassin]

a lot of people are saying that Vicarious has lyrics like APC, but heres my theory:

Maynard got tired of/freaked out by geeks approaching him with "the holy gift" theories and bullshit like that and decided the joke (the one you guys fail to acknowledge 99% of the time) had gone too far and decided to write better lyrics again.

I'm not saying that! I think these are Tool lyrics... and I plainly say so above, when I compare Stinkfist to Vicarious.

I have no idea what you are talking about... I just think that Tool is progressing, and we are standing still. That's the point, and they can stand back and watch the chess board from behind our backs... they are thinking 10 moves ahead...

[njm]

Right now I'm thinking about a quote from a very recent interview where Maynard said something like he tried the global consciousness thing and it didn't work, so now he is going back to focusing on what makes him angry on a more personal level (??).

Sorry if that's confusing, but I agree with you auralassassin....

Oh yeah, right now I'm listening to Schism, and the difference between it and vicarious is pretty huge! Do you think Aenema was an angry album, and will 10000 days be similar in that regard??

[auralassassin]

I think that we've gone from Aenema, where we were speaking in metaphor... showing that we are slowing our brains and becoming less sensitive to reality... We've reached a critical point in our evolution. ("Something has to change, undeniable dilemma") We need to feel something to even know we're alive anymore...

Lateralus showed us what the consequences of this COULD be... there was hope 5 years ago... Maynard saw that hope in mankind. He saw what we were capable off. Grudge showed us what was taking place... Schism shows us the results... Third Eye shows us the way...

We didn't take the advice, and now he can no longer speak metaphorically--we are no longer on the path to destruction... we are RIGHT on the edge...

"shouldn't have to say it all again!"

Here we are... "sink or swim!"

Sink or swim?

[Carbonatedgravy]

The way it appears to me, Vicarious is NOT about desensitization. It's the total opposite. As such, I can't compare it to Stinkfist. It doesn't contradict Stinkfist because both songs have different core subject matter, but they aren't parallel either.

Stinkfist is about needing to reach deeper and deeper to achieve stimulation.

Vicarious is simply about the human need to find the suffering of others stimulating. "Stimulation" is a theme of both songs, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. It never implies that we need to reach further and further to get the same highs in Vicarious. Such a theme may hold up in a certain context, but Vicarious does NOT explore that. It isn't a point in the song. Stinkfist is personal, whereas Vicarious is universal.

[auralassassin]

The way it appears to me, Vicarious is NOT about desensitization. It's the total opposite. As such, I can't compare it to Stinkfist. It doesn't contradict Stinkfist because both songs have different core subject matter, but they aren't parallel either.

Stinkfist is about needing to reach deeper and deeper to achieve stimulation.

Vicarious is simply about the human need to find the suffering of others stimulating. "Stimulation" is a theme of both songs, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. It never implies that we need to reach further and further to get the same highs in Vicarious. Such a theme may hold up in a certain context, but Vicarious does NOT explore that. It isn't a point in the song. Stinkfist is personal, whereas Vicarious is universal.

Stinkfist is universal, bro... that could be ANYone he is talking out. In fact, I venture to say it IS anyone. We always need more, always seek more of whatever drives us. Humanity isn't being driven by that which is healthy and wholesome anymore... to an extent we are better off than we were 100 years ago... but at what cost?

I can draw some rather broad parallels between the two, as I have--I guess we just interpret the music differently, which is great. Thats why I posted this and left it open ended. I wanna hear opinions.

[Carbonatedgravy]

Anybody can relate to Stinkfist on some level, but there isn't any one obvious interpretation. It can be drug abuse, it can be a take on desensitization to violence, it can be a take on anything in which we try to take something stale and bring back its meaning, even through dangerous means. It can probably mean a lot of other shit too.

So, it's universal in the sense that it could be for anyone, but everyone has different specific issues in which they're going to be able to plug in Stinkfist.

Vicarious is pointing at every single person on the planet and saying "This is your problem. This is who you are as a human, no, as a form of life."

That's the difference I see.

[auralassassin]

I can see obvious differences, but there are parallels as well... everything is connected and is a part of everything else--cause and effect.

We've become desensitized to whatever... grown beyond the borderline, and now we are on the next level--given the current social situation we face, I think it's a rather prophetic statement, given the place and time when it was written, if you can place the kind of meaning on it that I took from it--but like I said, I could see how one would think it means otherwise. I only offer my interpretation as an idea to ponder, and a parallel to point out that I think Tool's albums are pretty linear in nature... Cause/effect

Cause- we progressively have desensitized ourselves to life, death, loss, drugs, music, whatever it is...

effect- death, violence, hate, family, life, drugs, loss... they all have lesser meaning than they did before...

"I don't want it, I just need it... to breathe... to feel... to know I'm alive."

Can we stop and turn back? Maybe, maybe not. We can never UNLEARN the things which we know--and we cannot be come sensitive again. In a way the damage is done, and all we can do at this point is to attempt to find a way to deal with things the way they are.

What should we do about it? Turn off the violence, hatred, whatever it is that causes the GRUDGE... whatever it is that is the fist in our ass... whatever it is that causes this SCHISM...

Turn of the TV. Turn off the radio. Turn off whatever it is that is destroying your sense of self, and your sense of morals--I shouldn't have to say it all again.

[Carbonatedgravy]

Okay, so here is where we disagree. I don't see Vicarious written as an effect. I see it written as a simple fact. An ugly observation on human nature. This is how we are. Nothing within our control lead us to craving violence. That's just humanity.

The Roman gladiator battles are the easiest and most obvious example that a vampiric urge for blood has nothing to do with modern society. (I know that example was mentioned in another thread. I'm not ripping them off. I thought of it too.)

Besides, loving and feeding off of violence has nothing to do with being desensitized to it. It has everything to do with being sensitive to it, but in all the wrong ways. The more tragic the better. Desensitization would just imply that the tragedy of the situation is irrelevant.

[jerico v]

stinkfist and vicarious are only really related when you take one of them and apply it to the other. if you look at the two separately, they are separate.

stinkfist is a much more internal song than vicarious. the former is about looking for more pleasure inside oneself, the other is about taking... draining pleasure from others.

[auralassassin]

It has everything to do with it, I think... thats why when you join the military they teach you to kill by breaking you down and rewiring you. Human instinct is NATURALLY to avoid conflict, unless your environment breeds you to be violent or you are defending your life.

Nobody is comfortable killing someone unless they are crazy or bread to violent.

And you're right. It is an observation--BLUNT observation of the EFFECTS of slowly being desensitized, in general. I don't think that TV has to be so literal here, and that there is room for interpretation of the specific situations--but there is no room for intepretting the effects thereof... it can ONLY be negative.

By witnessing this violence/negativity, even in a second hand fashion, we are becoming less opposed to this as being morally acceptable. Maybe I even disagree with Maynard a little bit. I don't think that this is NATURAL. I think it is BECOMING, or has become second nature though... I get what you are saying, and I can agree to an extent. It's an ugly observation... but I THINK(and am definately prone to being wrong at times) it is an observation of learned behavior, not human nature.

And 50 years ago, this wasn't acceptable... but for some reason it was acceptable it was acceptable in Rome... we get a certain amount of satisfaction from that which disgusts us--we want to turn away, but we can't... maybe that is the human nature aspect. We are thrilled by what we shouldn't be witnessing, doing, ingesting...

[Carbonatedgravy]

Now I think we're getting into personal feelings and philosophies which is a little trickier but I think I'm getting a handle on what you're saying. Still, even if you disagree with Maynard, which is fine and cool and all that, I still stand bythe idea that he's suggesting that this isn't learned behaviour but natural instinct.

On a personal level, I feel that it is indeed natural instinct to crave violence, at least from a distance as is discussed in the song. Actually being involved in the act of violence is totally different, and this is made clear through the song with phrases like "from a good safe distance." To be a killer, I imagine in most cases desensitization is a plus. But there's no training or trick to just getting a high from watching the stuff on tv.

As far as things being different 50 years ago, this is true, but that's really quite complicated since now we're discussing an entire culture and its changes. I would suggest that people were exactly the same then as now, but were just forced to repress certain feelings due to the taboos of the time.

[auralassassin]

I'll have to digest this and come back to it later, but I like where we are going... it's interesting to break the songs down into meaning, instead of just trashing the mixdown and mastering of a song :D

[Sleep]

The Grudge > Stinkfist > Vicarious

[TheEulogyOfMe]

Vicarious is definitely the most straight forward and blunt song (Besides hookerwith a penis and every song on Opiate and maybe Swampsong) which is awesome. i personally don't need every tool song to require a dictionary and a book on Jungs theory. I like it when their songs are complex (lyrically) but perhaps with this feeling Maynard has when writing those lyrics, he can't beat around the bush with this topic. Instead of setting an alarm for us to wake up, he kicks us in the face. Bad analogy I know but he probably felt this was the best way to go about delivering his message. With stinkfist Him saying "We're too numb to feel anything anymore and uhh, stuff like that" just didn't fit the facade at the time and wasn't the best way to deliver the message. Sorry if this is redundant.

[ARMZ]

Stinkfist rapes this current song, nothing more.

[mattw]

"Tune in next week for Jambi vs. The Patient..."

I don't know what to say yet. Sure, I have heard Vicarious a lot in the last few days but I'm finding it hard to compare fairly with Stinkfist because the latter is nearly 10 years old... Vicarious is fresh and I am tending to enjoy the music more initially than the vocals/messages etc.

Both songs are fucking awesome though. I really like the themes in both and I like Maynard's lyrics for both, whether they are metaphors (Stinkfist) or more direct (Vicarious).

Also, to me, the drumming just seems to standout initially... I don't know, I'll definitely add more once I listen to Vicarious a bit more and get more of a 'feel' for it. No, I am NOT slow and unintelligent, I just want to enjoy the music first before I go analysing and expressing myself...

[dracomordag]

stinkfist = desensitization
vicarious = hyperreality


sorry, try again

[insaner]

Vicarious is definitely the most straight forward and blunt song (Besides hookerwith a penis and every song on Opiate and maybe Swampsong) which is awesome. i personally don't need every tool song to require a dictionary and a book on Jungs theory. I like it when their songs are complex (lyrically) but perhaps with this feeling Maynard has when writing those lyrics, he can't beat around the bush with this topic. Instead of setting an alarm for us to wake up, he kicks us in the face. Bad analogy I know but he probably felt this was the best way to go about delivering his message. With stinkfist Him saying "We're too numb to feel anything anymore and uhh, stuff like that" just didn't fit the facade at the time and wasn't the best way to deliver the message. Sorry if this is redundant.


but they did set an alarm. i hear it right at the beginning.

[TheEulogyOfMe]

but they did set an alarm. i hear it right at the beginning.

yeah, that's true. My bad.

[ladiatia]

If Vicarious and 10000 days mean a new direction in lyrics I'm happy.
Musically the song is great, and imo the lyrics are good. l hope the rest of the songs in the album are more down to earth than Lateralus. Lateralus is great but we all have heard it already, now we need some new stuff.

[timstead]

I def. Agree with where you're coming from.
and i'm actually glad this is how it is.
I felt that opiate/undertow had a "i question/we're dif. so F U" additude. an emotional response to the "question"
aenima had much more of a this is how we begin to understand. a almost.. academic approach to the search for the response
lateralus had this incredible spiritual element that def. helped me through the big questions.
i think i was hoping for an out with this album. That here would be the answer. But i knew that was impossible. This is going to be the most honest fucking testament to life as it is. and some people aren't going to appreciate it. I think those blasting it were hoping for the answers. and they will be getting them. some of them. and they're not gonna like it. Cuz it's mostly conclusions we figured out for ourselves. as it should be.
This couldn't be some cathartic solution. Everybody's solution is dif. That's the answer
it's all give and take. Even I, though it took me a while to accept, have Faith. I have a Faith in the uncertainty, faith in the uselessness, and faith in my understanding of things. sounds to me like maynards gonna tackle one of the hardest topics ever. Being a tolerant person comes with a small dose of being intolerant of intolerant people lol. and it's basically going to say Yup, we're all hypocrytes (sp*) i dunno that's my feeling.
much love
Timste

[ultrakow]

I'm reposing here (note this was a response to a political geared question however I believe it has more import on this discussion anyway).

I disagree with those of you who equate the meaning of stinkfist totally with that of vicarious. Granted, there exists a connection between the two songs, however they aren't simply reiterating previously explored ideas with new lyrics. This would be a gross understatement..

Stinkfist, as consensus would tell us, is in fact about desensitization. The song examines the constant desire for some thing new, for something real which can penetrate the void that monotony and 'satiation' open up before us.

Vicarious, on the other hand, seems to underscore the consquences of this desensitivity, perhaps on a socio-political level. In capitalist societies, specifically America, the 'real' desired in stinkfist, the event or the possibility of change, finds itself greviously absent. For a large portion of the American populace (this is not to say all) there exists no war, no misfortune, no semblance of becoming or vicissitude, but rather only the ceaseless montony of commodified being which has all of its supposed 'needs' met. Yet the desire for something real continues.

We must then turn elsewhere to satisfy said longing. It comes as no suprise that the US is the most sedantary nation on earth, even among other capitalist states that enjoy a rough equivalency in postion and in quantitive abundance. Thus we turn toward hyper-reality, toward the television, toward the tragedies and pseudo-'reality' that it presents, perpetually and without interruption. (We can be reminded of the world trade center footage being played over and over almost to the point that it lost its very meaningful character). The connection between the two songs becomes evident : When Maynard screams 'i'll keep digging' he wishes to express this desire on a purely subjective level, whereas in Vicarious we see the results of this desire when it overflows in being unable to find satiation in the world of lived-reality, and thus searches elsewhere: "I need to watch things die... at a distance."

This song, i'm guessing, seeks to criticize and mock those who are to apathetic, to scared, to lazy or maybe to ignorant, to achieve self fufillment in reality, in the life world, either because it requires to much responsibility or it has simply become alien to them.

In a purely contextual argument, mocking this lifestyle and social phenomenon equates to being anti-bush, because as we all know, the bush adminstration (but also every president in US history) has been globally the most active defender of this way of life. To say that this song aims directly AND only at bush would be to overlook the depth of the song itself. Tool songs always stay closer hermeneutically open generality rather then overly revealing specificity, to put it bombastically.

[e. blue cum]

aenema & vicarious >* schism > h. > parabola > stinkfist > 46 & 2 > prison sex > sober > hush

*barely

[easiest way for me to say it]

vicarious is climbing fast.. parts i didn't like i'm falling in love with..

[Grimface]

Stinkfist is far better. But I still love Vicarious. Once again I've been listening to it nonstop for over an hour...I really need to put it aside for a while, or I'll seriously play it to death :|

Even though Vicarious is great, I can't get over the thought that it sounds like an APC song played by TOOL.

I hope that this doesn't represent the vocal style of the rest of the album.

(and I don't even know if this belongs to this thread or not. I've been drinking a bit, so excuse me)

Once more....

[auralassassin]

Once again, I'm not asking what is BETTER--nobody cares what you think is the best or worst Tool song... please don't make this so PETTY as that... this is about the THEMES of the songs. If you can't think that deep, then GTFO.

[buster hymen]

Am I the only one who thinks stinkfist is clearly about addiction of all sorts (drugs, religion, etc.)?

[imatoolhed]

i think you hit it right on the head i posted something along those lines but you got the comparisions perfect ,but to say which song is better is each to there own,they both kick ass ,stickfist tells it like nothing else we've had long time to listen get our own feelings out it,the music the lyrics everything it's toolriffic,as for vicarious we still need time to let it brew awhile and take it all in,so i'll keep digging till i feel something,relax take tool by my hand.........tool on!!

[SigSegV]

I
Stinkfist, as consensus would tell us, is in fact about desensitization. The song examines the constant desire for some thing new, for something real which can penetrate the void that monotony and 'satiation' open up before us.

Vicarious, on the other hand, seems to underscore the consquences of this desensitivity, perhaps on a socio-political level. In capitalist societies, specifically America, the 'real' desired in stinkfist, the event or the possibility of change, finds itself greviously absent. For a large portion of the American populace (this is not to say all) there exists no war, no misfortune, no semblance of becoming or vicissitude, but rather only the ceaseless montony of commodified being which has all of its supposed 'needs' met. Yet the desire for something real continues.



Got it, well, at least I agree.

[rochey-o]

stinkfist is allllot better than vicarious

[Seethus]

'Something kinda sad about
The way that things have come to be.
Desensitized to everything.
What became of subtlety? '

Note this is a question.

'The universe is hostile, so impersonal
Devour to survive... so it is, so it's always been
We all feed on tragedy
It's like blood to a vampire
Vicariously I live while the whole world dies
Much better you than I'

Note this is a conclusion.

Vicarious is Maynards conclusion to what he already suspected. The world is fucked up. Hes always explored the possibility of the world fixing itself.
Vicarious is where he says 'enough, you fucking freaks'...haha

He shows how impersonal the world is, that if we cant see, feel, touch or taste it. Its reduced to some kind of sick entertainment or stimulation. This idea was explored In stinkfist. But now Its reached a much more disturbing conclusion. Because we know its the truth.
I love both songs, Vicarious is just AWESOME

[selfimportanttoolfan]

stinkfist wins this fight 2 seconds into the first round by decapitating vicarious, shoving 10 tons of c4 down his throat, calling him an ugly woman, re-attaching his head, allowing him to: live get deeply attached to a woman, start a family, only for the c4 to explode killing everyone he loves.

[TheCrackedJack]

Vicarious by about a thousand miles.