Package vs Vicarious

[godhenry]

after hearing Vicarious the first time, i had to take the CD with me and disappear from the world for about 30 hours. I listend to it sober, high on various "things," fucking girls, getting fucked by girls, alone crying, laughing, yelling... now i'm back and just want to say the following:

Package was written in form of a sarcasm as a way to criticize today's political atmosphere. Maynard was criticizing the societal dynamic between the "authority" and its "sheeps," probably in the context of the War Against Terrorism. So Package is political.

Vicarious was written as the singer's own feelings. Sarcasm still. Cynical of course. But nevertheless, it is about how Maynard personally feel especially in terms of his denial, his self-denial, shame, apathy, self-forgiveness (re: Intolerance, Prison Sex or pretty much every song on Undertow). It's emotional. It's honest and intimate with himself. Even though one could put all these feelings under the context of today's political environment, Vicarious is far from being political. It's VERY PERSONAL. It's nothing more personal when one accepts one's denial, and then hates and holds a lot of ready-to-explode anger at himself as a result of it. In fact, I wasn't even thinking about the war for more than 1 minute during the numerous replays of the song. I was totally relating that anger and lament to something that is very personal to me, specifically the part dealing with "better you than I."

Not to judge, but if you think that Vicarious could only be political or that TOOL has gone political because of what you think you've heard in Vicarious, you need to watch less TV, especially CNN.

Last note: The vocal is not weak, soft, mellow, smooth, nor anything APC-like... there's a lot of yelling and screaming out of that voice of Maynard in Vicarious. It's just that by the time the yelling and screaming reach you, they, as a result of production effects, have already become, metaphorically speaking, repressed, filtered, and seeminly ignored. But once you allow yourself to relate to the singer's personal frustration on a personal level, that Maynard's notorious yell in Vicarious is WAY STRONGER AND LOUDER that that in Third Eye, Aenima, Grudge, or any previous similar songs, hence it's a flip side of the Vicarious coin... The yelling and screaming in Vicarious is glass shattering! Maynard's voice is just as powerful, if not more powerful, and louder too.

But if you couldn't relate to Vicarious on a personal and meaningful level or you couldn't really hear Maynard's from-the-top-of-his-lung screams(and I sincerely hope everybody will at some point), you would just think that Vicarious is political because you're hearing what are already repressed, filtered, manupilatively ignored.

And don't pay attention to anything I said. This could be just a hang-over talk...

EDIT: the APC title I was referring to is actually The Package, which supports my views futher.

[jesse.O_o]

good post.
i agree with your sentiments entirely. this song grew and is still growing on me as lateralus did/is as i fall slowly but surely deeper under its spell. maynards frustrated/angry/preying growl of "Dies" makes me shiver (just about 1 49)
cheers
jesse

[bass_dude]

the interlude (i think, im not listening right now) with the drumming sends chills down my spine now, even though first listen i never really noticed :)

when primus have finished siging about wynona's beaver i'll have another listen :P

Alex

[seemyshadowchanging]

i agree also. the first time i heard it it gave me chills also.i didnt know if it was adrenaline or if it was the first few notes that made me say,thats what ive been waiting for.it was like a calming sensation when it kicks in.the people who are saying it sucks blah blah blah etc. makes me wonder if they are hearing the same song i am.this song is bad ass and i think the whole thing(album)will be too

[bass_dude]

listening now, the bit where it starts at 3:25...wow. has that kind of "psych-up" effect.

i love it.

[berkough]

I really like what you have to say about the song. I didn't noticed the connection with "The Package", but listend to both songs one after the other and picked up on it.

I know there's a lot of talk about how the song is less tool-like, or that somehow the band has changed... Well yes they have changed, but listening to "Vicarious" a few times and started to concentrate on the end of the song a bit... I definately hear the tool we've all wanted to hear for the past five years, even though it's not the tool we really expected to hear. I guess that's sort of saying what someone else posted on this board, but I feel the same way.

[chalk_line]

I dont think "the package" is political at all, my interpretation is that it is about drugs, buying drugs and needing them, a drug fiend needing a fix and not caring about anyone or anything but himself and the fix..maybe we have different interpretations or maybe your'e thinking of a different song.

[MacFoley]

i always thought that the package deals with the subject of when maynard was abused as a child.

[stardown]

Bad comparison. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but I don't know if it's completely fair to compair two songs from different time periods and different bands. I mean you can, it just seems strange, but it is conversation so I'll give you that.

Good God I don't what I set out to say.

[stardown]

Ignore my last post, I don't know what the hell I was saying. Apologies sir.

[tangent]

I don't think it has a deep hidden meaning, we know it was about the media etc., IMO because it's a decoy it is taking the piss out of the media and how it distributes things, like how the radio is already playing the single and they don't even know it's a decoy, it's a revolt, the song spells it out for you.

[BlairLicksTaint]

I don't think it has a deep hidden meaning, we know it was about the media etc., IMO because it's a decoy it is taking the piss out of the media and how it distributes things, like how the radio is already playing the single and they don't even know it's a decoy, it's a revolt, the song spells it out for you.

have you had a post without the word decoy in it in the last 24 hours? I can't wait till the cd comes out and I can call you an idiot, but I gues you'll just think the whole cd is a decoy

[dracomordag]

i fail to see a connection to the APC song The Package... maybe in that they're both about craving, but that's about all.

definately 0 political overtones. sorry.

[Clutch it like an AEnima]

great post.......i ve thought about the fact that its from a sarcastic point of view, great lyrics... one of maynards best

[neurosis79]

I dont think "the package" is political at all, my interpretation is that it is about drugs, buying drugs and needing them, a drug fiend needing a fix and not caring about anyone or anything but himself and the fix..maybe we have different interpretations or maybe your'e thinking of a different song.


And that is the correct interpretation..

[Nietzsche's Dead]

the interlude (i think, im not listening right now) with the drumming sends chills down my spine now, even though first listen i never really noticed :)

when primus have finished siging about wynona's beaver i'll have another listen :P

Alex

:D

I <3 wynona's big 'ole brown beaver :))

[dekard49]

And that is the correct interpretation..

+1.

Threadstarter, can you paste some of the lyrics to "The Package" and show us how you interpret it as political?

[Nate-dogg21]

I think they confused pet with package....

I will agree Vicarious is very much like Pet though. Except, Vicarious attacks human nature IMO where Pet attacks the political system.

[godhenry]

+1.

Threadstarter, can you paste some of the lyrics to "The Package" and show us how you interpret it as political?

First of all, the drug addiction interpretation of The Package is entirely appropriate. Mind you that I also think of the song being about drug addiction sometimes, especiallly when i'm on drugs. But saying Vicarious is a sign of TOOL going political just like how APC is is just wrong. That's why I made the comparison to illustrate my point.

If The Package is about how someone is using the package as a political machine to lure me into getting "addicted" to it, Vicarious is about how I am my own victim in my "addiction" to the machine.

"Clever got me this far Then tricky got me in" talks about how someone uses lies and deceptions to get control over the political machine (i.e. political campaigns).
"I take just what I came for Then I'm out the door again" this person just exploits the resources in this political machine to get what he truly wants (i.e., republicans and oil)
"Nod and watch your lips move If you need me to pretend" political propaganda.
"Take what's mine, take what's mine, mine... " read Thomas Hobbe's Leviathan or Rousseau's Social Discourse.

So in The Package, Maynard is speaking as a first person in a third person sense to make his point. This writing is always a way to criticize something or somebody. While The Package isn't necessarily political, it could be because of its crtical writing style in criticizing something else.

In Vicarious, Maynard is speak as a first person in his own sense. It's self-evaluation because its critical writing is to criticize himself. While the premise of the criticism could have political context but the song as a whole is very personal and its intent could not be interpreted as political at all.

hope this clears up what i meant.

[chonus]

I dont think "the package" is political at all, my interpretation is that it is about drugs, buying drugs and needing them, a drug fiend needing a fix and not caring about anyone or anything but himself and the fix..maybe we have different interpretations or maybe your'e thinking of a different song.


Agreed.



Vicarious > The Package (when it comes to political overtones)

[godhenry]

I think they confused pet with package....

I will agree Vicarious is very much like Pet though. Except, Vicarious attacks human nature IMO where Pet attacks the political system.

No I didn't confused pet with the package

I agree with your point about Pet. But again, in Pet, Maynard is speaking as if he's someone else, someone who he's actually criticizing. In Vicarious, he's criticizing himself in a internal dialogue. That difference is important in seeing how Pet could be political and Vicarious couldn't.

[bonch]

I always thought "The Package" was a tongue-in-cheek description of getting laid, "package" of course referring to male genitalia as an amusing parallel to "The Hollow" which refers to the vagina. Both songs are, in my mind, about having sex.

[xmorteferoz]

I thought "The Package" was just a song written from the point of view of a sociopath.

[bonch]

I thought "The Package" was just a song written from the point of view of a sociopath.

To me, a selfish guy only interested in sex. "Watch your lips move, if you need me to pretend." I think "The Hollow" is about feeding the sexual addiction, "cater to the hollow" having a dual meaning of filling the emptiness inside with sex and also being a euphemism involving the vagina. "The Package" and "The Hollow" fit together in both name and concept. That's my interpretation.

[xmorteferoz]

To me, a selfish guy only interested in sex. "Watch your lips move, if you need me to pretend." I think "The Hollow" is about feeding the sexual addiction, "cater to the hollow" having a dual meaning of filling the emptiness inside with sex and also being a euphemism involving the vagina. "The Package" and "The Hollow" fit together in both name and concept. That's my interpretation.

See, I think of it as "Nod and watch your lips move, if you need me to pretend" meaning "I'll pretend to care and pay attention if you need me to for me to be able to manipulate you later."

[bonch]

See, I think of it as "Nod and watch your lips move, if you need me to pretend" meaning "I'll pretend to care and pay attention if you need me to for me to be able to manipulate you later."

Yeah, we're drawing the same conclusion but using it for different interpretations. I see him as pretending to pay attention to what she has to say in order to get sex. Reading over the lyrics, he wants to fuck her and go. To me, "The Package" is a penis euphemism, and it parallels "The Hollow" as a vagina euphemism, a song that has a direct reference to the libido in it. I don't think it's a coincidence that the names of the first tracks of both APC albums could mean a vagina and a penis. I also draw from Maynard having a little of an infamous sexual side (e.g., the "Don't be offended" backstage pass).

[chonus]

I always thought "The Package" was a tongue-in-cheek description of getting laid, "package" of course referring to male genitalia as an amusing parallel to "The Hollow" which refers to the vagina. Both songs are, in my mind, about having sex.


This is now what I believe, too.

[dekard49]

On the amotion dvd, Maynards commentary seems to indicate its a drug thing, though he does say the songs can be applied as metaphors to a whole different subject.