The Age of Living Vicariously

[JuhaDeWolf]

http://www.urielw.com/mckibben.htm

It is a long read, but well worth it. The meaning behind the song "Vicarious" has been mentioned before in this forum, however this article hits the nail on the head.

[pryingopenmy3rdeye]

good read

[a big stupid dumbass]

Excellent read.... I would recommend Jean Baudrillard's "Simulation and Simulacra" to anyone that would like to delve a little deeper into this matter. Wikipedia provides a very cursory overview... "Jean Baudrillard is best known for his formulation of the notion of hyperreality, and in particular hyperreality in the United States. According to Baudrillard, America has constructed itself a world that is more 'real' than real, and where those inhabiting it are obsessed with timelessness, perfection, and objectification of the self. Furthermore, authenticity has been replaced by copy (thus reality is replaced by a substitute), and nothing is "real," though those engaged in the illusion are incapable of seeing it. Instead of having experiences, people observe spectacles, via real or metaphorical control screens. Instead of the real, we have simulation and simulacra."

[SaTaNs_LiTtLe_HeLpEr]

Thanks.

[Virginity Trey]

Good to read something that makes you think (criticism or praise of the song don't). Thanks.

[JuhaDeWolf]

It's pretty funny to read this forum. People here think that Vicarious deals solely with television, and that they are OK if they don't watch it. Yet they sit on their computers all day, posting meaningless replies on a meaningless message board. While they are not living vicariously through television, they are living vicariously through the internet. However, in a sense, I am a hypocrite.

[Virginity Trey]

I'm guilty of that too. Although I think it's worse to live life on the couch watching television, where you have absolutely no communication with others. At least you can have a conversation on the internet. You also have better control over what you're looking at. Basically you can learn more about life. I do agree though that it's living somewhat vicariously.

[Semp]

I'm guilty of that too. Although I think it's worse to live life on the couch watching television, where you have absolutely no communication with others. At least you can have a conversation on the internet. You also have better control over what you're looking at. Basically you can learn more about life. I do agree though that it's living somewhat vicariously.

.

It's not really the same kind of vicarious existence on the internet as you make your own decisions, you type your own messages... it's more like an extension of your own experiences. Vicarious, to live vicariously it o live through another, as in to take in someone else's (eg the TV's) experiences as your own. Which cuts out a crucial part of human experience of interaction.

It's still better to run around outside for a bit though.

[JuhaDeWolf]

I'm not too sure about this.

True, on the internet you make your own decisions. Although, I see this as an even greater hyperreality. You define the internet based on where you go and what you do. Customizing it to please yourself, making it become better than what it actually is. Essentially creating a hyperreality within a hyperreality.

Vicarious, to live vicariously it o live through another, as in to take in someone else's (eg the TV's) experiences as your own.

See though, the 'experiences' on television aren't really even experiences.

[ATARI]

too long didnt' care

[JuhaDeWolf]

A perfect example of this hyperreality, thanks ATARI.

In the real world, you have to work to gain knowledge, but in the hyperreality things are more real than real - better than what they actually are. Living in this false reality has made you apathetic. If it isn't instant and perfect, people don't want it, even though nothing real is instant and perfect.

[badshirt]

you said it!!!

i'm fucking out of here for the night.

[ATARI]

A perfect example of this hyperreality, thanks ATARI.

In the real world, you have to work to gain knowledge, but in the hyperreality things are more real than real - better than what they actually are. Living in this false reality has made you apathetic. If it isn't instant and perfect, people don't want it, even though nothing real is instant and perfect.

exactly.

[kato]

JuhaDeWolf, I do agree with you. This makes a lot of sense now. Lately I've been informing myself about immortality of the soul and quantum physics, which are closely related, notwithstanding they don't seem to fit at a first glance. For those who know some about this, will perhaps agree as well that Vicarious is indeed a follow up to the thematic in lateralus, which is (in my opinion) the path of the soul within this life (e.g. parabola). Now Vicarious brings the thematic of living experiences of your own, of being the thinker, the seer, the observer, and the self.
Hopefully someone will be interested in quantum physics and spirituality, and will understand somehow what I'm trying to say.

[spiralout11235]

Kato, you took the words right out of my mouth. I've been fascinated with Quantum Physics since I was first introduced to it a few months ago. I've been reading about it a good deal, along with the concept of the immortal soul which was expressed a great deal in Lateralus. While reading that article and seeing "hyperreality" mentioned here, I immediately began to think about Quantum Physics. Maynard has always emphasized the importance of an individual experience and the ability to experience a sense of self awareness, and I think Vicarious definitely touches on that. It's more of an example of how the TV has been stealing us from our individual experiences, because we are so tangled up in the matrix of others' experiences that we just live through them and not ourselves. I totally see how Vicarious is a follow up to Lateralus, and I'm glad you brought up Quantum Physics.

[Alex_Perry]

JuhaDeWolf: Thanks for the read.

[Choice Breath]

I agree with pretty much everything said here, especially as to Quantum Physics, immortality of the soul, and the relationship to the themes of Lateralus. I would only suggest and add that the point may be that people are watching all of this, and seem happy to just watch all of this horror and tragedy. I think the point is that if we just watch, and even enjoy it, although stopping short of admitting we enjoy it, we are complicit with it and condone it, maybe even feed and encourage it. So the point may be that the only way to deny this is to actually do something. Something positive. Otherwise, rather than just getting off on watching all the tragedy and senselessness, we might as well just go out and start killing people.

[spiralout11235]

I believe that when Maynard was asked what piece of advice he'd give to his fans, he advised his fans to turn off the tv and go do something.

[FistFck]

were not allowed to have TV's at The Citadel. i wonder what goes on out in the real world....

[Elgyn]

I enjoyed the article, thanks for posting it. It shed some light on the thoughts I'd initially been having about the song and pretty much backed them up. The themes of Vicarious are definitely applicable in areas other than TV. Not so much the ideas about watching people die, but rather about experiencing 'real life' in a very impersonal way (through TV, a forum, a computer game, whatever)..

As to whether being involved in a forum is equivalent to watching tv... In one sense it's very similar, because at the end of the day, we're all looking at a screen. It's a little more interactive, and a little less predictable. Posting an opinion on a forum is a more active mode of communication (i.e. it's not just receive-receive-receive) and it places the poster in a much more vulnerable position (unless they're the kind to ego-trip by putting other people's ideas down).

Having said that though, it's only a subtle difference. The forum drama here isn't much different to watching a soap opera or reading a book. But it's not fiction; there's something about it which is real.. It's a little bit like 'reality' television in the sense that we're voyeuristically looking in on someone elses life, which (however fabricated) is, or was, someone's actual experience.

[destructing david]

Thanks for that, very cool read. It's funny cause if you don't watch tv for quite some time then come back to it briefly you find yourself laughing out loud at inane, innappropriate and things which to you seem surreal but to the rest of the family are normal.

I lived in shared housing through Uni and watched almost zero tv bar somethig I specific I may knew would be on, and have never had one in my room. Watching more recently has left me scratching my head in amazement and fear at some shows/ads and can slowly feel free will, choice and my IQ dropping sharply! lol 8-P as it becomes normal again.

Ironically there is an AMAZING English tv show form the late 90's called Brasseye that was extremly shocking and controvesial that satired a lot of aspects of modern life, and many that article brings up, in a mock documentary slash news expose type thing. I don't know if you can get it out of the UK but i highly highly recommend it. It's just about the funniest, darkest and yet most enlightening thing I've ever seen out of the goggle box!

dd

[JuhaDeWolf]

I'm going to have to brush up on my quantum physics, however I really don't understand how it ties to this song. Could you explain a little?

[MagnusFortis]

I do not recall where I viewed this article or if someone already posted this article(Blame Hofmann) but it does a great job of explaining one way of viewing the meaning and correlations behind "Vicarious".

http://www.urielw.com/mckibben.htm

[the ending of vicarious is just]

[tangent]

Hmm yeah I like it.

[spiralout11235]

Yeah this has already been posted. Try searching.

[JuhaDeWolf]

Yeah, I posted that exact same article in a thread with the EXACT SAME NAME.

[MagnusFortis]

Yeah, I posted that exact same article in a thread with the EXACT SAME NAME.


Well gee wiz I was just trying to be helpfull. You don't have to be a negative jew bag about it.

[JuhaDeWolf]

Don't get all anti-semitic on me here. I'm not even Jewish.

Honestly though, duplicate threads waste time, take up server space, and generally piss people off. Do a little looking next time.

[MagnusFortis]

Hey guys just for the record JuhaDeWolf posted the article I found. Please give me no credit and actually go to my house and throw bricks through my windows for even having the slightest thought of re-posting this article which I found through google. The nerve of me ignorantly upstaging JahaDeWolf posting this article without my concious mind even knowing it. It truly is beyound my comprehension.

[JuhaDeWolf]

Or they could just merge the two threads and we could actually go back to talking about the article.

[MagnusFortis]

Right you are. Tool has had a history of anti-materialistic themes(Stinkfist, Hooker with a Penis, AEnima, etc, etc) But Vicarious has this apocolyptic-style ending which mimics and hints at the style of how AEnima ended. I honestly love the cymbal work in the begining and middle/end of the piece. It sounds like a dulcimer type instrument is being struck along with the cymbals adding pitch to the percussion. It sounds very church/apocolyptic and I can't stop picturing the four horsemen coming down from the heavens and the world ending.

[tool25]

four horseman? i hate that song

[a big stupid dumbass]

I'm going to have to brush up on my quantum physics, however I really don't understand how it ties to this song. Could you explain a little?

I don't see how quantum physics coheres with fucking anything except trendy mis-construals. In fact, theoretically, the quantum world is impossible and a bad representation of reality, look up a very popular paper by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen [ERP] to find evidence of a defect in quantum theory, alot of people say this is where Einstein went stubborn, but he has my support....

"I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics"~Richard Feynman

[JuhaDeWolf]

The only theoretical branch of physics I understand is string theory.
If quantum mechanics is anything like string theory, I really doubt it ties into the song. (No pun intended)

[MagnusFortis]

four horseman? i hate that song


Yeah that song does blow dead babies

[T-13h]

Well gee wiz I was just trying to be helpfull. You don't have to be a negative jew bag about it.

Seriously, isn't there some kind of policy against slurs and flamming? Or does that only apply to ***s and ******s? Is it the language or the fear-mongering ideologies that are the problem?

[JuhaDeWolf]

Please, stop the flaming.

This article is extremely pertinent to the song and I would really like to have an intelligent discussion about it.

[T-13h]

Please, stop the flaming.

This article is extremely pertinent to the song and I would really like to have an intelligent discussion about it.

Isn't that's what's going on in the original thread about the same thing?

[JuhaDeWolf]

This is the original thread, they merged it and you didn't even notice.

[T-13h]

*discrete exit*

[JuhaDeWolf]

Back on track.

Complete speculation at this point, but do you think that the entire album will deal with this topic of hyperreality?

My prediction is this.

The character played by Maynard in this song goes on a path of spiritual enlightenment. He starts off by recognizing that his life is a lie. He defines his existance by what he sees on television, living vicariously. Throughout the rest of the album, he rids himself first of this hyperreality, then reality itself, becoming enlightened.

Although this is complete speculation at this point, I feel strongly that this album will follow a concept similar to this.

[spiralout11235]

Back on track.

Complete speculation at this point, but do you think that the entire album will deal with this topic of hyperreality?

My prediction is this.

The character played by Maynard in this song goes on a path of spiritual enlightenment. He starts off by recognizing that his life is a lie. He defines his existance by what he sees on television, living vicariously. Throughout the rest of the album, he rids himself first of this hyperreality, then reality itself, becoming enlightened.

Although this is complete speculation at this point, I feel strongly that this album will follow a concept similar to this.

That's definitely a possiblity, and I think it would be an awesome concept. But it's hard to say at this point, having only heard Vicarious. He might not deal with the idea of hyperreality in any other songs, but I sure as hell hope he does.

[Jimmeny]

Hasn't this been posted already?

[JuhaDeWolf]

Yeah, I've always found the concept of hyperreality to be interesting. I think I might have to take a big stupid dumbass's advice and read Jean Baudrillard's Simulation and Simulacra.

Going into the lyrics and everything like this has reminded my why I love Tool. I can't wait for the rest of the album.

[HelenA]

Yeah, I've always found the concept of hyperreality to be interesting. I think I might have to take a big stupid dumbass's advice and read Jean Baudrillard's Simulation and Simulacra.

Going into the lyrics and everything like this has reminded my why I love Tool. I can't wait for the rest of the album.

Well, now that you have it - what do you think?

[maxim]

That article was quite an insightful read. I stopped watching TV a while back mostly because of boredum. If I did watch TV it was actually shows like "Wild Discovery" on the Science Channel or one of the Discovery Channels so that I might actually learn something while wasting away staring at the tube. I recently haven't watched very much TV at all, when it does happen it still captivates me, I grew up with it after all so it's been a part of my life for a long time. Usually commercials break the spell, and I go back to whatever I might have been doing. In short I'd rather have a chat with a friend or read a book, more than watch TV. Vicarious has strengthened that feeling even more, I try to encourage people around me to not watch so much TV, if any at all. I'd much rather them read a book.

[Terry21]

"The world may not be saved, but your life will. And that’s something, anyway."

"Vicariously I live while the whole world dies. Much better you than I".

[squinch]

interesting social commetary

even more interesting is the fact that it was considered a "long" article

[maxim]

even more interesting is the fact that it was considered a "long" article

heh, I felt the same as you. I expected more when I clicked the link. Still nice to read though.

[jim39n]

article is an interesting read

on the quantum physics thing, i know little to nothing about quantum physics, but i have seen the documentary "what the bleep do we know" and it was really interesting.

[BrandenG123]

The article criticized the mall...

Well, some people go to the mall solely to shop, but I find myself going, so I can spend time with my friends.

I don't think that would be living vicariously, but in America, it's hard not to.

[fabienne78]

"-TV does its best to drown out the voice, enticing us with ever flashier, ever more titillating visions.- "


Or to put it in other words: One great big festering neon distraction....

[Caduceus11]

or moves us away from the spiral>?

[scaredsquirrel]

...interesting.

I don't believe Vicarious deals specifically with T.V and to say that article is on a direct parallel with the song would be...wrong.

T.V is one of the ways tragedy is communicated...I think you're taking maynard a bit too literally here?

And fabienne, you do know at least some of Aenima is ironic, right?

[Caduceus11]

You could probably tie anything that deals with the word vicarious to this song...
I mean sure, that article is similar to the surface(literal) theme of the song....but its deeper than that...

[fabienne78]

And fabienne, you do know at least some of Aenima is ironic, right?


Ah c'mon, Just reading that line in the article made me think about that line in the song. That's all. I'm not a retard taking everything literally, jeeez.
Ease up a bit man, I just saw a tiny connection.

[toocooltool]

nice

[BlanketEffect]

It's pretty funny to read this forum. People here think that Vicarious deals solely with television, and that they are OK if they don't watch it. Yet they sit on their computers all day, posting meaningless replies on a meaningless message board. While they are not living vicariously through television, they are living vicariously through the internet. However, in a sense, I am a hypocrite.

It's only living vicariously if that's where your interaction with the world ends. Nothing wrong with posting/sharing ideas on the internet. I think, in a way, that that's part of what's going to save people from themselves.

But regardless, this isn't where the interaction ends. Don't read a good idea and then think to yourself 'oh, that's a great idea' and then never act on it.


"Don't live vicariously through your intentions." - me

[Saturn_Ascends]

Excellent read.... I would recommend Jean Baudrillard's "Simulation and Simulacra" to anyone that would like to delve a little deeper into this matter. Wikipedia provides a very cursory overview... "Jean Baudrillard is best known for his formulation of the notion of hyperreality, and in particular hyperreality in the United States. According to Baudrillard, America has constructed itself a world that is more 'real' than real, and where those inhabiting it are obsessed with timelessness, perfection, and objectification of the self. Furthermore, authenticity has been replaced by copy (thus reality is replaced by a substitute), and nothing is "real," though those engaged in the illusion are incapable of seeing it. Instead of having experiences, people observe spectacles, via real or metaphorical control screens. Instead of the real, we have simulation and simulacra."



What about the millions of Americans that are living in poverty? How does any of this apply to them? I think life is "real" enough for them, and i seriously doubt they are obsessed with timelessness,perfection and objectification of the self. I could go on and on, picking apart this silly theory by Baudrillard, piece by piece, but it would be redundant, the point has been made,

I could be wrong, it's been known to happen.

[slipthru]

It's pretty funny to read this forum. People here think that Vicarious deals solely with television, and that they are OK if they don't watch it. Yet they sit on their computers all day, posting meaningless replies on a meaningless message board. While they are not living vicariously through television, they are living vicariously through the internet. However, in a sense, I am a hypocrite.

Ha ha i just thought the same thing. but justified it a little tiny bit with the fact that we interact with people to. Where as tv is just a dumb medium. sit and watch and numb your brain.

[DON IOTAE]

http://www.urielw.com/mckibben.htm

It is a long read, but well worth it. The meaning behind the song "Vicarious" has been mentioned before in this forum, however this article hits the nail on the head.

This (http://boyswearpants.powerblogs.com/posts/1147134767.shtml) is a long read, referenced to in this thread (http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=56422), a pretty good read too. Not related to this thread though...

The Vicarious article was a good read, dude. I have nothing more intelligent to say at the moment.

[ArizonaBay]

^^^ Thanks that was a really good read

[BlanketEffect]

As quoted from the above read:

"The next Tool album should ideally be a purely instrumental album with Maynard singing "Aum" the entire time."

Amen. *sigh* I feel so much happier now.

[ArizonaBay]

Has anyone heard the song Retrovertigo by Mr. Bungle? similar theme;

Now I'm finding truth is a ruin
Nauseous end that nobody is pursuing
Staring into glassy eyes
Mesmerized
There's a vintage thirst returning
But I'm sheltered by my channel-surfing
Every famine virtual
Retrovertigo

A tribute to false memories
With conviction
Cheap imitation
Is it fashion or disease?
Post-ironic
Remains a mouth to feed