Mix Theory (Very long.)

[Mongeese]

I've been listening to Vicarious solidly since I got it, with little break for much else but a few runs through Dani California and The Downward Spiral by NIN (but that's beside the point) and I realised that something was missing from Vicarious, and it wasn't missing from the RHCP or NIN music.
The vocals, you could hear them clearly, but they didn't overpower the rest of the music at all. The vocals are both pretty much typical cases of vocal mixes. Bad examples, yeah.

Now, it's going to sound like I am sucking major dick with all of this, but bare with me. The band have said that Maynard's voice is just another instrument in the mix of this album. They would not be fucking stupid enough to have it so you could barely hear Maynard. Maynard has an emotionally strong voice, and that provides the power to almost all of Tool's songs. And this should be no exception. I'm not saying I think that they're going to do an "average" mix for the vox, because they're not, but I think that they'd be smart enough to have the vocals slightly louder than the other instruments. Not quiet enough to be barely audible, but loud enough to be just right, perfectly audible, but just another instrument.

The band's had long enough in the music industry, and if it's a case of difficulty, well bullshit. They should know this shit by now, judging the flawless mix of Lateralus.

Now, onwards, I'm basically just going to say that I think the mix we have now is a stripped down and basic one.

Now, I may be completely and utterly wrong, but since the radio uses compressors, it should, in theory, mix itself to be more balanced than it is now. Because right now, it sounds like all 4 "instruments" are going face to face in a battle of who can go louder, except Maynard, who's not doing shit.
But yeah, the whole compressor thing, since it would, in theory, be mixing itself, so they'd want a basic mix to fuck around with? I don't know shit about how the radio works, I'm just going with pure logic and my ears.

And now, I'm going to go onto the vocals themselves. I mean, shit, the vocals here are beautiful, they compliment the music perfectly, almost agressive. And why the band would want to have it so people couldn't fucking hear 'Nard sing is beyond me.
As I've said, they're not fucking stupid, they know what their strong points are, and what their weak points are, and their strongest (at least to me) is Maynard's voice. Even if they want it to be another instrument in the mix instead of this Angelic Banshee, if you will (It rises over everything else, but it sounds beauitufl) they're wanting to go for a more modest approach with his voice. And even with all this talked about effects experimentation with the vocals, too! But as with all mixes, the instruments have to FIT. They have to WORK, and they have to compliment each other so that they're all audible, recognizable, and play their part.
Adam's sounding way too loud, I heard that it was a lot more guitar focused this time around, but this is going overboard, the drums sound fine to me, the bass needs bringing up a smidge, and Maynard needs his volume adjusted to compliment the other theoretical volume changes.

Right now, now being able to hear Maynard and having the guitar overpower everything is getting to me slightly. I might just be living in a false belief that Tool can really pull this off and that they haven't made a horrible fucking mistake with the mix. But I don't know. I know this was some really long shit, and it may be worth shit, but I don't care.

Discuss.

[rakeshuva]

i think it's cool that they are changing things up in terms of the mixing. tool's always been about redefining music, and doing things in ways that people initially dislike but grow to love (at least in my case).

can't wait to hear disposition/reflection part II! (see kabir's review...)

[Mongeese]

I think the mixing is good, but damn, I just can't hear Maynard, and it's bugging me, because his vocals are such a large part of Tool for me.

We already know Tool is Tool only when all 4 of them work collectively, all playing their roles how they should, and Maynard should be heard.

[Sea of Lies]

"My band. It's MY band. I asked Maynard to play with me, so TOOL is my band"

Guess this explains the high mixing vol of adam.
And he's always been like "yeah the vocals are another instrument".. i guess he was sick of being settled back by danny and maynard...

Since they produced the album... it's exactly like they want it to sound.

As i read in another post, it's like an APC hidden song, or worse... yesterday i was playing it and some friends told me "what's that? godsmack?" referring about 3:30 in the song... i played again and even adam's "solo" was kinda godsmack...

Anyways, it's tool, so it's ok with me and i like the song. I was waiting something in the path aenima then latheralus pointed, but it's ok.

[Jimmeny]

Adams parts aren't strong enough to be this forward in the mix. Lateralus strength was it gained its power and energy from the guitars without any guitar wanking. This time the guitars are just mixed loudly and you can hear how, well, average Adams parts are. What's ace about this song, as almost everyone has said, is the bass and drums. Few people have mentioned anything about Adam Jones, other than to say he's copied Meshuggah (which he hasn't).

[vesica_piscis]

A mix is a mix - radio might compress it to even out the volumes with other songs that they play but it won't change the level of the vocal in the mix.

Make sure you're listening to it with the eq on your stereo flat because I listened to it on a bass heavy system and Maynard was a bit drowned out but on a system that was nice a evenly eq'd it sounded better. He is still a touch low for my liking but fuck those guitars sound fat.

[Mongeese]

I suppose the whole point of this thread is that I'm pissed off about how quiet MAYNARD IS. The vocals are there to add that layer of sound that is clearly audible, and in Tool, the lyrics are what matter the most, they get the message across, you get the emotional attatchment from Maynard's voice. I don't want to hear Adam just thrashing the D chord forever. May not be the same for you, but whatever.

And Adam's "solo" near the middle is more Meshuggah-ish. Try the Catch 33 album, you can see immediately where Adam took that idea from. Sounds good though, I've got no problems.

[mike tyson]

Jesus christ, Adam wasn't serious about the MY band thing, it was a joke. You really think Adam was like "i'm sick of maynard being at the front, so i'm going to be on this record!!"

No.. it didn't happen. They're trying something different, it sounds good, and I can hear Maynard clear as day.

[rakeshuva]

can't think of a specific song, but i feel like this isn't the first time maynard's vocals aren't in the foreground.

[Navid]

"My band. It's MY band. I asked Maynard to play with me, so TOOL is my band"

Guess this explains the high mixing vol of adam.
And he's always been like "yeah the vocals are another instrument".. i guess he was sick of being settled back by danny and maynard...

Since they produced the album... it's exactly like they want it to sound.

As i read in another post, it's like an APC hidden song, or worse... yesterday i was playing it and some friends told me "what's that? godsmack?" referring about 3:30 in the song... i played again and even adam's "solo" was kinda godsmack...

Anyways, it's tool, so it's ok with me and i like the song. I was waiting something in the path aenima then latheralus pointed, but it's ok.


I am shocked that so many people are taking this seriously.

Do people actually believe Adam was not joking?

[layersbeyondimagination]

maynard needs more lines like

"something kinda sad about..."
"between supposed brothers/lovers..."
"theres no love in fear!"

i dont mind the mixed vox, but i wish they just let maynards voice shine a bit more. tahts what makes some of the epic songs stand out, the emotiona nd power of mayanards voice. think about sober, WHYYYYYY cant we not be sober.... that sets teh tone of the song.

[Ertai]

if you dont already know, but from a distance... if you turn the bass down a bit and walk some distance away from the speakers... it dulls down the sound of the instruments and maynards voice sounds alot clearer..

did this last night with some buddies as we sat in a field, toking some d00b, and listening to the new single... we would walk away from my buddies truck and we could hear the lyrics alot clearer....

[Ertai]

i like it how with each listen you build more and more of the lyrics.... and with each listen maynard sounds alittlle clearer..

[Sea of Lies]

I am shocked that so many people are taking this seriously.

Do people actually believe Adam was not joking?

Not taking it seriously but they've come to a point in wich they can throw shit each other and they don't care, like maynard could say "i was sick of them telling me to be in the front so i'm not doing it now" (NOT SAYING THAT REALLY HAPPENED)
In other words, he told it like a joke but it's obvious that he wanted to be notorious on this album, and everyone agreed.

[apanine]

I don't know about everyone else, but, I've got a fever...and the only cure...IS MORE COWBELL! It's true, I've gotta have more cowbell.

[Valediction]

maynards lyrics were quiet and subdued like this on most lateralus songs too. On Aenima they were heavily distorted. He hasn't sung clear since Undertow.

[praefector]

i hope all the maynard lovers get butt-hurt by his mixed down vocals


i like it...it makes the MUSIC sound more powerful

[dracomordag]

this thread shows an unusually high ignorance of music production

[UrQuattro]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!!! THEY ARE A PROGRESSIVE ROCK KIND OF A BAND... PROGRESSIVE FUCKING ROCK! ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE NEW STYLES... fucking hell.. i wonder why i left this forum about 3 years ago... (sigh)

[dracomordag]

except that progressive rock does not mean a band changing style over time. nor is this mixing ideology new.

other than that, i agree

[oipic]

I'm still holding on to some (limited) hope that this is a specific mastering for direct-to-radio purposes or something - it sounds muddy, there's clipping everywhere, the noise floor is too easily distinguishable, the highs are crushed - in general, the production is a large disappointment, particularly after Lateralus (which was nigh-on perfect in my opinion). To mask music that is so intricate and detailed behind this murky 'wall of sound' technique is a damn shame.

The song still rocks, but more dynamic production would've elevated it further.

[phreak03]

was this song edited? cause i remember somewhere it said it was like 7:30ish maybe? this one's 7:08...i dunno, i might be wrong..

[auralassassin]

I love Maynard, but a LOT of Tool songs would be amazing, even without his voice. Period. I wish I could get instrumentals of ALL of Tools music, for mixing in my DJ sets.

[scaredashell]

As I stated in another post, if you take 125Hz and cut it by about 2db, it takes out the "touch" of mud in the low end of the guitars (Mesa amps have this inherent quality) and take 2-4Khz and boost it about 2db, Maynard creeps out just on top and Danny's small toms rally come to life. I think the intent was to keep the instruments sounding as natural as possible without over-eq'ing. With those 2 slight adjustments, the mix cleans up beautifully.

[NoD]

Vicarious is Tool's St. Anger? Good music held back by shitty production? I agree with what you say Mongeese. I love Maynard's voice, and his lyrics, NOW WHY THE FUCK CAN'T I HEAR THEM CLEARLY IN THIS FUCKING AWESOME SONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dracomordag]

gtfo. plz.


seriously, this is one phenomenally produced song. not quite oceansize or porcupine tree, but goddamn close.

[Idiotica]

first you need to take a course in sound engineering and then buy yourself a high-end sound system and maybe if you eq it just right the song might start to sound good. maybe.

[etaipo]

I can hear the vox fine, but also don't base your opinion just on this one song!

[shorabali]

I can hear the vox fine, but also don't base your opinion just on this one song!


That is what everyone seems to be doing. Who knows what else the album has to offer. I admit , I was disappointed in vicarious. I was expecting somehting of the hieghts of lateralus or reflection . But in the end you really think tool will disapoint us on the whole? i doubt.

[RED_THE_HAT]

I think everyone id forgetting a vital thing here as well. We are only hearing this as it is intended in 2.0 Stereo. We are entering a day and age where DVDA and the such is going to be in every home, so what makes us think that what we are hearing now is the way we are meant to hear it? Imagine this in 5.1!!! Thinking about that makes me need to change my boxers.....

[Seth Bullock]

Double Vaginal Double Anal is going to be in every home? Fuckin' A!

[Seth Bullock]

Seriously though, I have a DVD-Audio/SACD player, and am a big fan of both formats. I'm disappointed because I've heard nothing about 10,000 Days or past TOOL discs being released with surround mixes. But I'll still love this album more than my firstborn. And I, for one, LOVE Vicarious. HARDCORE! Maynard's voice is a tad low, however.

[LoKi]

"My band. It's MY band. I asked Maynard to play with me, so TOOL is my band"



i really hope he says something like "cancer is cool, take up smoking" so then you spacktards can believe that as well.

[kholdstayr]

You are definitely correct. I was kind of pissed about not being able to hear Maynard well. When I listen to the song I strain to hear Maynard and as a result I tend to ignore the rest of the music. I did what you said and turned down the bass and I can certainly hear Maynard a lot clearer now.


A mix is a mix - radio might compress it to even out the volumes with other songs that they play but it won't change the level of the vocal in the mix.

Make sure you're listening to it with the eq on your stereo flat because I listened to it on a bass heavy system and Maynard was a bit drowned out but on a system that was nice a evenly eq'd it sounded better. He is still a touch low for my liking but fuck those guitars sound fat.

[MOON]

I think the mixing is good, but damn, I just can't hear Maynard, and it's bugging me, because his vocals are such a large part of Tool for me.

We already know Tool is Tool only when all 4 of them work collectively, all playing their roles how they should, and Maynard should be heard.


Change your speaker...

[usefulidiot]

I have the .flac lossless version of the song and it sounds fantastic. I don't think you'll be disappointed when the album is released.

[ktrip]

i want the .flac lossless version of the song that sounds fantastic...