The "Key" is the Lost Keys

[cryaeythrs]

PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS:

Because this is my first post, I am aware that I am immediately going to be categorized and not taken as seriously as the “veterans”. All I ask is that you read this in its entirety (sorry; it’s a bit long), research the facts yourself (if you’re intrigued), and offer some intelligent opinions. Here it goes…

As you know, BMB has been obsessed with Enochian trivia for the past couple of months. I was surprised (as some of you were) to see no Enochian references when the new album title and track listing came out. However, the title “Lost Keys” sounded like a phrase I had previously come across in an article I had read on Enoch. Sure enough, I found the article, these paragraphs caught my attention:

“As one who attained immortality, the secret of how we "might become as gods", Enoch promises to return at the end of time "with the keys to the gates of the sacred land." In the Book of Enoch, Enoch describes a wondrous civilization in the past, who misused the keys of higher knowledge and were unable to save themselves from the last cataclysm. Both literally and figuratively they lost the "keys": they lost all higher knowledge.

...The "keys" Enoch speaks of, turn out to be sound keys, keys to be vibratory matrix of reality itself, the mythic "Power of the World". The Enochian knowledge describes sonic equations, encoded within the ancient mantras and god names, capable of directly affecting the nervous system and producing profound effect of healing and higher consciousness states.”
REF: http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/secrets_of_thoth_and_the_keys_of.htm
( I recommend reading the whole article starting 1/3 of the way in so you don't get bored).

I, for one, wasn't too excited about the album title/track listing. However, if you look up the Book of Enoch (http://www.carm.org/lost/enoch.htm) and do a word search for "ten thousand"...see how many times it comes up...coincidence? (i'll admit, 10,000 days still seems odd to me as an album title since all of Tool's previous albums have been one word titles) If the album does have Enochian influence (it MAY not), besides the titles "Lost Keys" and "10,000 days", the other titles don't seem to fit (based on what I've researched).

How does this relate to the new album (if it even does)? I am curious to see what you guys think. Hopefully, some of you guys will research some of this and add your two cents. My knowledge is still somewhat premature on the topic. Also, please don't waste your time by insulting the post: it's just an opinion. If you think it's stupid, ignore it.

EDIT:
Interesting Find: The track is called Lost Keys (Blame Hoffman), right? Look at this...It deals with the translation of the Book of Enoch.:

Professor A. G. Hoffmann released a translation in 1833 based on this work called "Das Buch Henoch in vollständiger Uebersetxung, mit fortlaugendem Commentar, ausführlicher Einleitung und erläuternden Excursen" but due to the use at least in part of Laurence's later work there where a number of mistakes that are prevelent. Two other translations came out around the same time one in 1836 called "Enoch Retitutus, or an Attempt" (Rev Edward Murray) and in 1840 "Prophetae veteres Pseudepigraphi, partim ex Abyssinico vel Hebraico sermonibus Latine bersi" (Gfrörer). However both are considered to be poor the 1836 translation most of all and is discussed in Hoffmann, Zweiter Excurs, pages 917-965.

Spelling of Hoffmann is different, however.

[Sol Invictus]

Welcome, the board needs more minds like yours. I think its an interesting post maybe the most interesting post i have read in atleast a week here. I dont know if your correct but it was an interesting find and read...Im still repeating what i have been saying...Tool are downplaying this entire album in scope wether its the title to the actual content.

[bonus.cheese]

nice 1st post

[paganman7]

I suppose anything's possible. It certainly requires some level of complexity that we've come to associate with Tool.

Besides, if these track/album titles do have some Enoch meaning, maybe some of the whiny bitches around here will relax about the names.

[Sol Invictus]

Now that i re=read it in the past years I became quite learned in the mayan culture being an anthropologist major, i find the similiarities in this story and the one to the return of quetzacotaol and the end of the 4th age and ushering in of the 5th the age of Aquarius or the age of "christ like consciousness.

[Sol Invictus]

thats where everyone gets the 2012 end of the world date, the mayans never said the world would end just the end of time, or the current time of age. Big misconception.

[cryaeythrs]

Very true.

[nexus11313]

Impressive, no offense to NM, but that post was the most worthwhile thing to come out of your state that I've ever seen.

I admit that I'm new, but why does it always reset my post count to two?

[cryaeythrs]

haha I agree with the NM comment...trust me, I am desperately trying to leave.

[Sol Invictus]

what up with roswell, i met an alien there, he is my cousin by default though ohh and whiskey.

[cryaeythrs]

Coincidentally, I was born in Roswell. By alien, do you mean illegal alien? If that's the case I can testify to thousands of sightings:)

[Sol Invictus]

haha spot on spot on. Im from texas i know what you mean.

[Sol Invictus]

Wait a minute we were talking some really cool shit how did we get on aliens....i gotta stop drinking.

[cryaeythrs]

They are controlling our minds!!! Speaking of aliens, I found several sites (reliability questionable) that link the Book of Enoch with UFOs/Aliens. Quite interesting...

[justify_denials]

(i'll admit, 10,000 days still seems odd to me as an album title since all of Tool's previous albums have been one word titles).

By the way, "10,000 Days" is only one word.....................!!!!!!

[cryaeythrs]

Ouch! Good point...forgive my ignorance on that statement.

[dracomordag]

By the way, "10,000 Days" is only one word.....................!!!!!!

...

nit·pick
intr.v. nit·picked, nit·pick·ing, nit·picks

To be concerned with or find fault with insignificant details. See synonyms at quibble.

[justify_denials]

haha spot on spot on. Im from texas i know what you mean.
hey, im in washington and they are all over the place. I worked with several at one point. By the way, the government lets them in and stay to protect their rights they really dont have because it cost more money to get rid of them and they make more money letting them stay!!

[justify_denials]

government conspiracys man........well not really, but greed.

[Sol Invictus]

well to be completely honest im gonna drop a little sad knowledge, and i dont mean to come across as racist just stating the facts, Texas has officially become the first majority-minority state, spanish people surpassed the anglo population in '05.

[cryaeythrs]

Definitely greed!! I always find it funny how border issues have been a "top priority" for years but nothing ever happens. In this case, the apathy is intentional.

[Sol Invictus]

now if only more of these people were mayan priests i might want to have a few discussions on the topic of galactic alignment.

[justify_denials]

well to be completely honest im gonna drop a little sad knowledge, and i dont mean to come across as racist just stating the facts, Texas has officially become the first majority-minority state, spanish people surpassed the anglo population in '05.
yeah. Why do you think that most states (or this country for the matter) have not not legally made english the primary language?

[Alistair_Carson]

well to be completely honest im gonna drop a little sad knowledge, and i dont mean to come across as racist just stating the facts, Texas has officially become the first majority-minority state, spanish people surpassed the anglo population in '05.

DAMN straight...

I live down here in Houston. It's worse than Austin, you wouldn't believe.

[Sol Invictus]

Im convinced the further south you go the worse the problem is. Austin rules man the most liberal town int he south by FARRRRRR.

[cryaeythrs]

I am not well informed when it comes to Mayan culture, or else I would definitely be discussing the subject with you. Any books you would recommend?

[Alex in Chains]

Can anyone help me with this?

It seems like a band with Tool's opinion of organized religion (see "Opiate") wouldn't be into all this Enochian stuff. Does anyone know if it's all a joke to them (like thanking Satan at the Grammys), or maybe just something they find fascinating? Do they really believe in this?

I'm personally not religious, but if I were a guy who responded to a question regarding Christianity with "I like fairy tales," I don't think I would subscribe to a religion (please, no semantic debates here) like this. I'm not pretending to know everything (or even that much) about it, but it seems like all this Enochian stuff they throw around makes even Scientology seem feasible by comparison.

-A

PS - Whether they actually believe it or not, I think we can all agree that the worst part about it is the myriad news posts from Blair that have nothing to do with the band but instead let us know about some ritual he took part in. Jesus.

[Alistair_Carson]

yeah. Why do you think that most states (or this country for the matter) have not not legally made english the primary language?

Cuz America is considered "the melting pot" of ethnic cultures. I guess the thought process is that dubbing English as the prime language cuts off certain Hispanic availabilities. Bullshit.




(the melting pot....THE POT!!!111 OMG!!!111 I FGIUERD IT OTU!!!11)

[Sol Invictus]

The mayan factor by Jenkins. Check out this site its a lot of stupid news about a lot of nothing but if you read further into the site and sort through the bullshit you get a better idea than any book might portray. www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/

[Alistair_Carson]

Im convinced the further south you go the worse the problem is. Austin rules man the most liberal town int he south by FARRRRRR.

It definitely has a much greater music scene too.

[Sol Invictus]

It was part of my degree so i could mail you the 20 page symposium i did on their astrology religion.

[Alex in Chains]

Im convinced the further south you go the worse the problem is. Austin rules man the most liberal town int he south by FARRRRRR.

The most liberal? Hot dog! I hate seeing so much of my paycheck, so I guess I'll move to Austin, where I can be taxed to death by liberals who "rule." Do you need a roommate, Sol? =)

-A

[justify_denials]

Cuz America is considered "the melting pot" of ethnic cultures. I guess the thought process is that dubbing English as the prime language cuts off certain Hispanic availabilities. Bullshit.




(the melting pot....THE POT!!!111 OMG!!!111 I FGIUERD IT OTU!!!11)
its already bad for them and english isnt the prime language!! Have you seen what the ESL classes are like in public schools? It's a fucking joke!!!

(Then again public schools in general are a joke)

[Sol Invictus]

haha my band lives together outside the city on a farm. We are quite the organic star gazers if you get my earlier posts....But taxing is far greater than living under the police state that is the rest of the state of texas. trust me i have grown up all over this fucking state.

[Alex in Chains]

haha my band lives together outside the city on a farm. We are quite the organic star gazers if you get my earlier posts....But taxing is far greater than living under the police state that is the rest of the state of texas. trust me i have grown up all over this fucking state.

Actually, if you take a look at my location, I probably pay more taxes than you do. I was being coy. The People's Republic of California isn't all that into "freedom," when you really look at it on paper. Of course, I don't want to move away, because I haven't quite given up on a career in film yet. Otherwise . . . see you later, Barbara Boxer. I've only been to Texas once (other than layovers flying home to St. Louis), but I'll be in Grapevine (just outside of Dallas) next month.

Is the "police state" really that bad? I'm interested to hear.

-A

[Sol Invictus]

depends on if you ask me or a 80 year old republican christian.

[cryaeythrs]

Can anyone help me with this?

It seems like a band with Tool's opinion of organized religion (see "Opiate") wouldn't be into all this Enochian stuff. Does anyone know if it's all a joke to them (like thanking Satan at the Grammys), or maybe just something they find fascinating? Do they really believe in this?

I'm personally not religious, but if I were a guy who responded to a question regarding Christianity with "I like fairy tales," I don't think I would subscribe to a religion (please, no semantic debates here) like this. I'm not pretending to know everything (or even that much) about it, but it seems like all this Enochian stuff they throw around makes even Scientology seem feasible by comparison.

-A

PS - Whether they actually believe it or not, I think we can all agree that the worst part about it is the myriad news posts from Blair that have nothing to do with the band but instead let us know about some ritual he took part in. Jesus.

I completely agree where you're coming from. The whole Enochian thing may be a sad hobby for Blair. However, the comment you made on organized religion; I think it's important to point out that the concept of Enoch is universal. There is some version of him in Mayan, Egyptian, and Greek cultures (to name a few).

[Sol Invictus]

That was an answer inside a question just in case I missed my target.

[Sol Invictus]

ya a higher power doesnt neccessarily mean a religion is necessary. I am a strong believer in the beliefs of the egyptian and coinciding astrology/beliefs/life of the mayans, Hopi, Greeks, Summerians. Its a universal entity as Cyrae said not a organized religion, it doesnt have its own tax relief haha. = )

[awaking]

that be sweet if thats what LK is all about. negative ions and such.
TDN's don't fuckup the world once we learn our powers of being god. Danny said in an interview for this album they hope it helps people find their inner god

[cryaeythrs]

Do you remember which interview it was? It is the next stage in our evolution. I wonder if it is restricted to certain individuals...

[Sol Invictus]

Im really glad you brought that point back up awaking, i totally forgot he said that even though that could be a quite the trite answer for a question such as what to what they mean to achieve with a new album. I hope he is right.

[Sol Invictus]

Crowleymas chat. Toolarmy has the transcript.

[cryaeythrs]

Thanks.

[cryaeythrs]

Interesting Find: The track is called Lost Keys (Blame Hoffman), right? Look at this:

Professor A. G. Hoffmann released a translation in 1833 based on this work called "Das Buch Henoch in vollständiger Uebersetxung, mit fortlaugendem Commentar, ausführlicher Einleitung und erläuternden Excursen" but due to the use at least in part of Laurence's later work there where a number of mistakes that are prevelent. Two other translations came out around the same time one in 1836 called "Enoch Retitutus, or an Attempt" (Rev Edward Murray) and in 1840 "Prophetae veteres Pseudepigraphi, partim ex Abyssinico vel Hebraico sermonibus Latine bersi" (Gfrörer). However both are considered to be poor the 1836 translation most of all and is discussed in Hoffmann, Zweiter Excurs, pages 917-965.

It deals with the translation of the Book of Enoch.

[Sol Invictus]

Quite the find. INteresting im reading up on that now. If we had more fruitful and friendly conversations like this one i would delight in this boards existance but sadly this board is full of dare I say IDIOTS.

[Alex in Chains]

I completely agree where you're coming from. The whole Enochian thing may be a sad hobby for Blair. However, the comment you made on organized religion; I think it's important to point out that the concept of Enoch is universal. There is some version of him in Mayan, Egyptian, and Greek cultures (to name a few).

Yeah, I understand it's not exactly organized religion per se, but it is at least as insane as something like Christianity. That's just my opinion, of course.

-A

[cryaeythrs]

It may not be the Hofmann people were associating with LSD...Albert Hofmann, I believe...who was born in 1906.

[Sol Invictus]

no this hoffman is an author, i knew what you were talking about in that albert had not been born yet. spot on im liking this thread a lot. Deftinitely a good thread.

[cryaeythrs]

Quite the find. INteresting im reading up on that now. If we had more fruitful and friendly conversations like this one i would delight in this boards existance but sadly this board is full of dare I say IDIOTS.

I know what you mean, I was afraid to join at first but I decided at least one person would have someting intellectual to say.

[cryaeythrs]

Yeah, I understand it's not exactly organized religion per se, but it is at least as insane as something like Christianity. That's just my opinion, of course.

-A

I see where you are coming from.

[Sol Invictus]

too bad this is a three person discussion as im sure there are probably a few hundred that have read and dont want to write but are afraid of the intellectual conversation going on(partly) and a few hundred just reading who would like to join if more posts were of this caliber...and on that mark thanks to alex for joining the discussion with us...your points are well thought out.

[Sol Invictus]

finally found something that sums up the mayan stance on galactic alignment and the true 2012 belief. http://www.2012.com.au/mayan.html

[Gratis]

.

[cryaeythrs]

finally found something that sums up the mayan stance on galactic alignment and the true 2012 belief. http://www.2012.com.au/mayan.html

Thanks for the link. You might find this interesting as well:
http://tcoe364.tripod.com/Enochian-MayanPyramid.htm

[dracomordag]

no, the problem is that its fucking 330 in the morning and the rest of us ignore the new album section

[Sol Invictus]

ahhh the embedded julia and my friend fibonacci. The number PI. the existance of eveything into that number, i have always wondered to myself if tool has ever tried to experiment with that number and its alotment in music and frequency. I think especially since Cythaethyrs has put up that article explainging the pyramids as being tuned in to a natural frequency then what PI has to do with these allocations and how everything set can come back to that reltion and measurement......wow the universe man like wow = )

[Sol Invictus]

its 3:30 for you. my friend. and if truly are from delaware it should only be 2:30 you sure your clock is to proper weight setting?

[cryaeythrs]

It's amazing how advanced the Mayans were...

[Sol Invictus]

Way ahead of their time but their the thing that is truely uncanny is their resemblance to the pre-existing and co-existing egyptians on the other side of the earth who have never had direct contact, atleast that we know of. Truly boggles the mind the complexity of the B.C. era and the knowledge they held.

[cryaeythrs]

Hey Sol Invictus, are you familiar with the El Castillo pyramid?

[Sol Invictus]

yes it was built to replicate 'snake mountain' where creation first happened.

[Sol Invictus]

Quite interesting the similiarties between the two, i have only recently started to really dig deep into the enochian language and history.

[Alex in Chains]

thanks to alex for joining the discussion with us...your points are well thought out.

Thanks for the compliment. I have little else to do tonight . . . I'm really past the point, job-wise, where I should be saying, "I'm not going out this weekend because money is tight," but payday isn't until the first and I have a lot of money tied up in expenses. Oh, well. Next weekend will be fun.

Anyway, I'm enjoying this discussion.

-A

[Sol Invictus]

The amazing thing is the mayans created daylight savings thousands of years before modern man even thought about it they knew precisely a year was 365.25 thus every four years we need an extra day. off topic but interesting little tidbit.

[Sol Invictus]

daylight savings haha im drunk, leap year. daylight savings was ben franklin i dont think the mayans really thought that one up my bad for the mix up.

[Alex in Chains]

The tracklisting for 10,000 Days spells it H-O-F-M-A-N-N, like the LSD guy. The other guy spelled his name H-O-F-F-M-A-N-N. So probably the LSD connection. It was an interesting thought, though.

Also, WAY off-topic, but since I was thinking about Crowley (and doing a little online research to learn about this stuff): A lot of people debate the meaning of the number 11 in "jimmy," and I just discovered that Crowley loved the number 11. Also, his lover died 11 March 1945. Curious.

-A

[cryaeythrs]

.

[insaner]

Welcome, the board needs more minds like yours. I think its an interesting post maybe the most interesting post i have read in atleast a week here. I dont know if your correct but it was an interesting find and read...Im still repeating what i have been saying...Tool are downplaying this entire album in scope wether its the title to the actual content.


could you elaborate what you mean by "downplaying" for me?

[cryaeythrs]

The tracklisting for 10,000 Days spells it H-O-F-M-A-N-N, like the LSD guy. The other guy spelled his name H-O-F-F-M-A-N-N. So probably the LSD connection. It was an interesting thought, though.

Also, WAY off-topic, but since I was thinking about Crowley (and doing a little online research to learn about this stuff): A lot of people debate the meaning of the number 11 in "jimmy," and I just discovered that Crowley loved the number 11. Also, his lover died 11 March 1945. Curious.

-A

Good catch on the spelling.

[insaner]

Cuz America is considered "the melting pot" of ethnic cultures. I guess the thought process is that dubbing English as the prime language cuts off certain Hispanic availabilities. Bullshit.




(the melting pot....THE POT!!!111 OMG!!!111 I FGIUERD IT OTU!!!11)

i laugh because you purposely put those 111's in there.

[Sol Invictus]

sorry insaner i do not feel like backpeddling at this point in time i hope you understand hit mem up tomorrow when im sober and clear and i will dive right into what i mean, but for now.....something that a "person" wrote on the other board that has by whatever means inspired me by his words i will repeat them only to convey his message to this board and hopefully it will spread...Many creative people are crippled by the fear that no one will ever hear their words and that they'll become a non-entity, so they never try. We can't do that. Failing is one of the best experiences we can live through, and the fear of it even more so. It can inspire us to push harder so that our words aren't futile, it may enable you to find hidden beauty in the purity of your intentions that you may not have seen before.

[Sol Invictus]

www.10000-days.com/forums/ read the topic key to understanding, this is supposedly adam over there but i doubt it, either way his way with words is quite eloquent.

[insaner]

Quite interesting the similiarties between the two, i have only recently started to really dig deep into the enochian language and history.

keep digging.

[Alex in Chains]

. . . resemblance to the pre-existing and co-existing egyptians on the other side of the earth who have never had direct contact . . .

Darwin used to point out that this happened with different species on different continents as well. I was reading a National Geographic article on him in a doctor's waiting room the other day. I wish I could remember more about his theory, but that may have been around where I stopped reading. I found the article online, but it seems to be missing the part I remember.

If you find something on his work, it may be very plausible to draw a parallel between theories of biological evolution and anthropological development.

Of course, neither area is really my specialty.

-A

[insaner]

The tracklisting for 10,000 Days spells it H-O-F-M-A-N-N, like the LSD guy. The other guy spelled his name H-O-F-F-M-A-N-N. So probably the LSD connection. It was an interesting thought, though.

Also, WAY off-topic, but since I was thinking about Crowley (and doing a little online research to learn about this stuff): A lot of people debate the meaning of the number 11 in "jimmy," and I just discovered that Crowley loved the number 11. Also, his lover died 11 March 1945. Curious.

-A

am i mistaken or didnt the 11 debate die a log time ago?

[Sol Invictus]

haha right..I just never came into that stellar moment when things align and its time to learn about enochian. I knew tool used it and crowley translated it more clearly through his writings i just never felt the need to dig then just due to the fact dug it, didnt mean it was right or even factual speculation. If ya get what im trying to say.

[insaner]

sorry insaner i do not feel like backpeddling at this point in time i hope you understand hit mem up tomorrow when im sober and clear and i will dive right into what i mean, but for now.....something that a "person" wrote on the other board that has by whatever means inspired me by his words i will repeat them only to convey his message to this board and hopefully it will spread...Many creative people are crippled by the fear that no one will ever hear their words and that they'll become a non-entity, so they never try. We can't do that. Failing is one of the best experiences we can live through, and the fear of it even more so. It can inspire us to push harder so that our words aren't futile, it may enable you to find hidden beauty in the purity of your intentions that you may not have seen before.

uh...

im high, so you must be umm, higher?

you say the band is downplaying the message of the new record, im wondering what you mean.

[Sol Invictus]

that tool dug it, sorry.....and to alex yes this was his beginning thoughts to evolution. *to darwin thought* The finch species on an island was his beginning signs to evolution.

[insaner]

www.10000-days.com/forums/ read the topic key to understanding, this is supposedly adam over there but i doubt it, either way his way with words is quite eloquent.


if its anything like the other crap i went and read on that site, his words are only eloquent in that they eloquently describe how badly grammar is taught in our public schools these days.

or how eloquently psuedo-intelligence is catered to in our current environment.

[cryaeythrs]

www.10000-days.com/forums/ read the topic key to understanding, this is supposedly adam over there but i doubt it, either way his way with words is quite eloquent.

Wow, that post was very well worded. I completely agree with it.

[insaner]

haha right..I just never came into that stellar moment when things align and its time to learn about enochian. I knew tool used it and crowley translated it more clearly through his writings i just never felt the need to dig then just due to the fact dug it, didnt mean it was right or even factual speculation. If ya get what im trying to say.


not really, i thought maynard was eleven when his mom moved and got with that other dude. you know, the one who touched him.

[Sol Invictus]

you inquisitive little stoner...haha kidding. I really think tool has downplayed the message of this album by making it sound very down to earth convincing some people that its political and worse. But to me that can happen and still convey a huge mesage, cos to be human is the beginning to all things that can even begin to be speculated over and i truly believe that in this time of yearning we are looking for something real something organic to touch and to feel. And these theories of april fools, fake tracklisting, album name, and artwork only fuel my fire for the displacement of true message if, indeed, the conspiracies are true. If not then i still believe something deeper is going on, and people might besaying duhhh but i think it runs a lot deeper than the rregular discussions on this board.

[dracomordag]

its 3:30 for you. my friend. and if truly are from delaware it should only be 2:30 you sure your clock is to proper weight setting?

...

...

oh yeah. Just got back from carribean and forgot to set clocks back.

[Alex in Chains]

www.10000-days.com/forums/ read the topic key to understanding, this is supposedly adam over there but i doubt it, either way his way with words is quite eloquent.

Well, the initials ATJ are interesting, but I have my doubts too. And the reason for that is something you point out above: He's eloquent. Adam has always struck me as very talented and fairly intelligent, but never exactly eloquent. I think he is gifted in the areas of music and visual forms of art, but it seems to me language has never been his strong suit. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; some have it and some don't. But the posts by anothertediousjaunt seem a little too well-worded to have come from him.

-A

[Sol Invictus]

Characterized by persuasive, powerful discourse: an eloquent speaker; an eloquent sermon. that is the definition of eloquent not good grammar.

[dracomordag]

Characterized by persuasive, powerful discourse: an eloquent speaker; an eloquent sermon. that is the definition of eloquent not good grammar.

yea, but have you ever read his myspace emails or just the page in general?

[insaner]

you inquisitive little stoner...haha kidding. I really think tool has downplayed the message of this album by making it sound very down to earth convincing some people that its political and worse. But to me that can happen and still convey a huge mesage, cos to be human is the beginning to all things that can even begin to be speculated over and i truly believe that in this time of yearning we are looking for something real something organic to touch and to feel. And these theories of april fools, fake tracklisting, album name, and artwork only fuel my fire for the displacement of true message if, indeed, the conspiracies are true. If not then i still believe something deeper is going on, and people might besaying duhhh but i think it runs a lot deeper than the rregular discussions on this board.


hmmm, i actually might agree with you, at least about the message.

i was trying to make you see that they havent downplayed anything, because they havent really said what its about at all. but youre right, they did say it was political, and i have no doubt that it will be deeper than that, so yeah, i guess we agree.

[Sol Invictus]

haha nevermind above message is unneccessary after you read it. Ya from adams posts and seeing his grammar i dont believe it is him.

[insaner]

Well, the initials ATJ are interesting, but I have my doubts too. And the reason for that is something you point out above: He's eloquent. Adam has always struck me as very talented and fairly intelligent, but never exactly eloquent. I think he is gifted in the areas of music and visual forms of art, but it seems to me language has never been his strong suit. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; some have it and some don't. But the posts by anothertediousjaunt seem a little too well-worded to have come from him.

-A


agreeed 100%

[cryaeythrs]

you inquisitive little stoner...haha kidding. I really think tool has downplayed the message of this album by making it sound very down to earth convincing some people that its political and worse. But to me that can happen and still convey a huge mesage, cos to be human is the beginning to all things that can even begin to be speculated over and i truly believe that in this time of yearning we are looking for something real something organic to touch and to feel. And these theories of april fools, fake tracklisting, album name, and artwork only fuel my fire for the displacement of true message if, indeed, the conspiracies are true. If not then i still believe something deeper is going on, and people might besaying duhhh but i think it runs a lot deeper than the rregular discussions on this board.

It is unfortunate to say that we have reached an age in which the mind of a newborn child is much more active than that of an adult. A normal child rightly explores, experiments, and questions why something is so.

For some odd reason, the older we get the less we care. We stop exploring, experimenting, and asking and instead allow ourselves to be “fed” by others. Not once do we question the credentials of those who feed us. Not once do we question what we are being fed. Instead we hold on to what we are told. We believe something not because we sincerely know it is true, but because it has to be true.

It has to be true because it was on the news. It has to be true because it was in an over-produced movie. It has to be true because it is what our parents told us. Do not misinterpret me, I am not asking that we question the integrity of our parents or of the wise inhabitants of Hollywood. What I am asking the world to do is to question everything they now believe and why they believe it.

[insaner]

It is unfortunate to say that we have reached an age in which the mind of a newborn child is much more active than that of an adult. A normal child rightly explores, experiments, and questions why something is so.

For some odd reason, the older we get the less we care. We stop exploring, experimenting, and asking and instead allow ourselves to be “fed” by others. Not once do we question the credentials of those who feed us. Not once do we question what we are being fed. Instead we hold on to what we are told. We believe something not because we sincerely know it is true, but because it has to be true.

It has to be true because it was on the news. It has to be true because it was in an over-produced movie. It has to be true because it is what our parents told us. Do not misinterpret me, I am not asking that we question the integrity of our parents or of the wise inhabitants of Hollywood. What I am asking the world to do is to question everything they now believe and why they believe it.


whiloe i understand your pain at seeing this process, i ask you what an alternative could be? we learn, therefore we must question less, simply by the nature of learning.

is there some other way?

be like water my friend...

[Sol Invictus]

I remember being raised in a christian home and finding out there was no santa claus. my next question to my parents was so therse no jesus or god...I totally agree with you Cryae. We are living in times of global communication but total spirit confliction and isolation. it's sad...

[Sol Invictus]

I guess you go until you reach the paradox of the is no truth, because for that statement to be true there has to be truth then you work your way backwards..haha

[Alex in Chains]

Do not misinterpret me, I am not asking that we question the integrity of our parents or of the wise inhabitants of Hollywood.

Hahahaha.

Also, I went through and read ATJ's posts on the page. He is eloquent and has a better mastery of grammar, etc., than Adam Jones. But I am bothered by the fact that in all that pretty language and good grammar, he's really not saying much at all. That post is kind of devoid of any real thought, if you ask me.

-A

[Alex in Chains]

I'm going to bed. Good night, all.

-A

[Sol Invictus]

And thats cool alex but to me that touches something deep as to what he is trying to say. I myself am a musician and his statements about art and touching another person ring absolutely true.

[Sol Invictus]

spot on alex. peace

[cryaeythrs]

[QUOTE= we learn, therefore we must question less, simply by the nature of learning.

is there some other way?

be like water my friend...[/QUOTE]


I disagree. The way I see it, the more we learn, the more aware we are of things (or at least we should be). Therefore, if we see something that isn't logical or doesn't make sense, it should be in our nature to question it. I could list several examples where this logic doesn't apply, but they are all political and I don't want to go there (think MJK's views, apathy, etc.)

I don't know if it is because we are afraid to question, or we don't care, but either way I believe it is something that is becoming more and more common.

[Sol Invictus]

its called complacency..its a virus that is running rabid through the souls of man.

[cryaeythrs]

its called complacency..its a virus that is running rabid through the souls of man.

I think you summed it all up with that sentence. Anyway, it was nice exchanging thoughs with you guys. I'm glad the discussion was limited to the few of us...I can honestly say I learned a lot tonight and I'm glad I joined. If any of you find anything else of interest, let me know. I'll call it the night with one of my favorite quotes:

"Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge."

Good night.

[Sol Invictus]

and my mantra. Knowledge before Judgement. Night guys. good thread...good thread indeed.

[dekard49]

REF: http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/secrets_of_thoth_and_the_keys_of.htm
( I recommend reading the whole article starting 1/3 of the way in so you don't get bored).



Very interesting read, thanks for the heads up. IMO, no matter which branch of knowledge Tool derive their lyrics/meaning from, it seems clear that it is all drawn from one palette; its interesting, becuase if you are interested in reading this stuff, you always bump across TOOL songs sooner or later.

I remember I started reading alternative accounts of the life of Jesus and his relationship with his peers and the land at the time, and all of a sudden "Mer De Noms" snapped into focus.

[Happyfunball]

Great thread, I must say.

I think in regards to the Mayans and other cultures of an earlier time, the assumption of the "more civilized" whites was always that they were both godless and ignorant. And by godless I mean the white races simply felt all these other cultures were worshipping the "wrong" God and therefor might as well be worshipping absolutely nothing. Surely then, if they were worshipping the wrong God, they must likewise be stupid and unable to comprehend even God's most mundane creations. How could they possibly know anything if they don't even know God?

That's the kind of attitude which has carried on for centuries and only now seems to be losing a bit of it's grip versus the overwhelming proof that many of these former civilizations where extremely advanced and understood things even the Bible based cultures of the past had not yet comprehended (or worse, had sought to supress for the sake of their own dogma). Unlike in previous centuries, actually giving these past civilizations the credit they deserve is no longer feared or ridiculed by the majority.

Just reading small portions of the 'Hammer of Witchcraft' gives a great deal of insight as to how irrational, illogical, and downright ignorant our own "civilized" culture was not too long ago.

[Florida_Mike]

I remember reading (in the tool_book.pdf, I believe) a comment about some people's dependence on LSD to achieve the "higher state" that Tool seems to be pushing towards. The song could be alluding the fact that people aren't pushing themselves to find a higher plane, but rather relying on LSD to take them there. Maybe Maynard is blaming Hoffman for giving people a crutch that is actually inhibiting us from evolving, rather than helping us.

[Xariable]

Good first post. I've seen fragments of that theory thrown about, but never yet in a complete format, until now. It'd be cool if you're right.

[insaner]

Good first post. I've seen fragments of that theory thrown about, but never yet in a complete format, until now. It'd be cool if you're right.


i read in an old interview where maynard says this exact thing, although not taking it as far as lsd being a crutch, just that its an easy way, but it can be done without hallucinogens.

[Spongebob]

did people look up the occult references to "buzz's revenge" and "poopy the clown" for the last hoax album?

[idwita]

nice post. some great ideas going on here, and i'd say there's something very real in terms of the Enochian-related stuff, just noticed one little thing, the debate on "Hoffmann" vs. "Hofmann". if the tracklist displayed on t.d.n really is completely accurate, then we know the spelling is "Hofmann", like the LSD inventor, yes. but i see no reason not to have a dual meaning here. seems to me like both "potential references" are equally relevant, and we've known TOOL to have multiple interrelated meanings/references represented by the same bit of symbolism, plenty of times in the past. makes it all so much more fun :D

[Alex in Chains]

did people look up the occult references to "buzz's revenge" and "poopy the clown" for the last hoax album?

Good shit, Sponge.

I have been participating in this discussion because Cry and Sol are two cool guys, and it's been fun. Like you, though, I think this tracklist is a hoax.

And with that, here's a little tidbit: Mark Hofmann was a famous counterfeiter. Hmm . . . the tone of this discussion may take a turn.

-A

[Spongebob]

haha interesting.

but seriously, lost keys (blame hoffman), the pot, rosetta stoned. they seem to fake to me, and the artwork too, for so many reasons. then again, i wasn't a fan of tool until after lateralus, so i don't know what the tracklist or artwork or title would sound and look like if it was genuine. i am fairly sure that 10,000 days is a hoax, but i'm slightly worried it might not be.

[Alex in Chains]

Sol and Cry, check out the thread I started ("Five Reasons Not to Believe in 10,000 Days"). "Lost Keys" was in fact the key that made me start it; the Mark Hofmann thing was just too weird.

-A

[Sol Invictus]

Ya man i had a good time for the first time on this board last night. Im agreeing with your post alex. I can accept it if it is 10,000 days and ocelot has a thread similiar to this but I really do think that 10kdays is tools way to steer us in the wrong direction and keep shit on the lockdown.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Can anyone help me with this?

It seems like a band with Tool's opinion of organized religion (see "Opiate") wouldn't be into all this Enochian stuff. Does anyone know if it's all a joke to them (like thanking Satan at the Grammys), or maybe just something they find fascinating? Do they really believe in this?

I'm personally not religious, but if I were a guy who responded to a question regarding Christianity with "I like fairy tales," I don't think I would subscribe to a religion (please, no semantic debates here) like this. I'm not pretending to know everything (or even that much) about it, but it seems like all this Enochian stuff they throw around makes even Scientology seem feasible by comparison.

-A

PS - Whether they actually believe it or not, I think we can all agree that the worst part about it is the myriad news posts from Blair that have nothing to do with the band but instead let us know about some ritual he took part in. Jesus.


Tool and it's members are definately at the least quite knowledgable about the Enochian background.

[Sol Invictus]

hahah durrrrr

[Sol Invictus]

hahaha really eulogy we had no idea??????!!???

[Inner_Eulogy]

The tracklisting for 10,000 Days spells it H-O-F-M-A-N-N, like the LSD guy. The other guy spelled his name H-O-F-F-M-A-N-N. So probably the LSD connection. It was an interesting thought, though.

Also, WAY off-topic, but since I was thinking about Crowley (and doing a little online research to learn about this stuff): A lot of people debate the meaning of the number 11 in "jimmy," and I just discovered that Crowley loved the number 11. Also, his lover died 11 March 1945. Curious.

-A

The number 11 is signifigant with the dream state of consciousness. It is said to be in some way the number which intertwines our visible and our conscious realities. Like when you're a child and your mind is more open and conscious of the "other world" which we as grown ups seem to lose with age. He sings the song as if "coming home" back to where our true consciousness should be. In between the physical and spiritual worlds...that's why he says he's "11 I have found you, I am wide awake and headin' back home"

[dracomordag]

11 = number of change

[Inner_Eulogy]

I remember reading (in the tool_book.pdf, I believe) a comment about some people's dependence on LSD to achieve the "higher state" that Tool seems to be pushing towards. The song could be alluding the fact that people aren't pushing themselves to find a higher plane, but rather relying on LSD to take them there. Maybe Maynard is blaming Hoffman for giving people a crutch that is actually inhibiting us from evolving, rather than helping us.

Maynard himself had once said that he had dabbled in drugs (psychadelic) before but never got himself stuck into a hole so deep he couldn't climb out and that the idea was to bring yourself there and to try and repeat the experience and knowledge gained from it without having to take the drugs again.

(edit) sorry, this was said before...I hadn't gotten that far down the postings yet

[juncopartner]

Cuz America is considered "the melting pot" of ethnic cultures. I guess the thought process is that dubbing English as the prime language cuts off certain Hispanic availabilities. Bullshit.




(the melting pot....THE POT!!!111 OMG!!!111 I FGIUERD IT OTU!!!11)


america is considered a 'metling pot' because they want to assimilate all foreginers. so then why wouldn't english be an offical language, if their goal is for people to forget their roots and traditions?

[Sol Invictus]

he mentioned the states not the country as a whole. The states on the most part do govern themselves, however i dont know if your from america but if you were and knew the problem of most immigrants not even knowing english *were no longer talking about making it the official language, im talking about a total communication break down because these people coming in dont know the language and dont ever try to learn it. Because as you said they dont wanna give up their roots and traditions and learn english but its ok to move here and take advantage of our way of life. The lines can be blurred and in this situation its a sticky one.

[something_Dark]

*golf clap* i just wanted to make sure this thread stays alive. continue please!

[Sol Invictus]

I dont know what else people can add man, i would like to see the discussion further along but as it is most of the other members of this board dont really wanna post on here.

[submachine]

It certainly requires some level of complexity that we've come to associate with Tool.

I assume you're talking about the lyrics? I think ambiguity is often seen as complexity, its pretty common theme of rock singers and other 'poets'.

[cryaeythrs]

PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS...(Once again, it is fairly long)...

Hello Everyone...I have returned! I am glad to see so many people really enjoy this thread. Needless to say, it was a prominent motivation factor to continue my research into this "deceitful" new album. I thought about posting my new findings in a new thread, but I figured the ones who would appreciate them the most are those who are keeping up with this one. If you want to refer people to what I am about to post...by all means please do.

As we all know there is still doubt to the validity of the track titles. What I'm about to suggest (emphasis on "suggest") may substantiate at least one song title on the album, which will then have some wondering, "If one is right, could the others just possibly be true...?" There is the possibilty, however, that the album they have been playing for everyone is a decoy, in which case my findings will become null. I must remind everyone, this is just a theory.

It was mentioned in King's review of the new album (I believe) that Maynard trys out a Native American singing approach (simultaneously scary but intriguing, if I may add). Well, I started doing some searching using the "fake" tracklist as a backbone. Suprisingly, one of the titles was a hit. I am unaware if this has been proposed, but I did a search on the forums and nothing came up.

Lipan Conjuring
__________________________________________________ ________________________
The Lipan (AKA; "Tindi") are an Apache Native American tribe, native to the Texas area and now living in Southern New Mexico (so close to home). Here is a link if you would like to read more about them: http://www.indigenouspeople.net/lipanap.htm. Could this be the song where Maynard tries out his Native American language skils? All signs point to yes...

I started thinking, "Why make a specific reference to this tribe though?" As you all know "conjuring" simply means magic or trickery. So what about the Lipan is magic or can be seen as trickery or an illusion. I continued my research and came across three songs that are unique to the Lipan tribe. One of them immediately caught my attention (Now here is where you can become a little more skeptical.)

The song is called The "'Idìyitá" Song which translates as the "He Makes it Walk" Song. What caught my attention the most is one of the lines that describes the song. The description states the "song's sole purpose is to aid children who are slow at learning to walk." As you all know, this line can be taken in many different ways.

Could this be the song or part of the song (since it is supposedly only one minute) Maynards sings on the new album? (Here's a link to the song, by the way: http://www.indians.org/welker/lipsong.htm). Would he even be allowed to sing it? If so, the implications of the song are intriguing/controversial. We are all still children in this giant universe trying to take our first steps. Our journey has yet to begin, or has just begun. The interpretations are endless.

Again, I am curious to hear your feedback. I am aware that once I get into mentioning that specific Tindi song, I am stretching my limits a little..ok, maybe a lot. But why else would they specifically refer to the Lipan. They want us to find something related to them. Anyway, I hope you guys come across this post and offer your opinions. I may be out for a while since I have a cancer exam coming up. But when I come back, I want some good criticism and some possible alternative suggestions. Good luck...

[Florida_Mike]

Here's a link (http://www.texasindians.com/apach.htm) to some Lipan history, for those interested.

[cryaeythrs]

Good link.

[cryaeythrs]

I especially liked this line: "Lipan Apache scouts knew so much about living closely with the earth, that sometimes they seemed to vanish before their pursuing enemies." Could this be the magic/illusion that "conjuring" in the title is refering to? If so, how does this relate to the album's message? (That is if this is even the actual track's name.)

[Staticfactory]

Impressive first post cryaeythrs, very well done!

I'm actually quite intrigued by the possible relationships you're pointing out. This is certainly a new direction, equipped with new insight and reference, and that is much appreciated!

[cryaeythrs]

Thanks! I am still not confident that the tracklist is real, but I figured that instead of trashing it, I could try finding meaning behind it. Feel free to post anything you find. If the tracklist does end up being false, the least we can say is that we have learned about things that were completely unfamiliar to us before...nothing wrong with that.

[Octopod]

I think one of the main parallels between this tribe and Tool's ethos may be the fact that they ended up splitting into two separate groups; the Southern/Western Groups and the Northern/Easter Groups. I'm not sure if that was typical among tribes as they were driven west, but it does suggest some kind of split. That schism lasted from 1767... shortly after their break with a treaty with Catholic missionaries... to about 1903 (according to one of the above links) when they just kind of faded away on reservations and intermixed with other dying tribes. A tribe existing in two entities probably has to deal with the issue of a dual history, reputation, and consequently, a dual identity.

The fact that they had a reputation for blending in well with their surroundings may be part of the inferrence to "conjuring", and may be a reference to past lyrics dealing with the elusiveness of the anima to the speaker (see Third Eye, Crawl Away, Cold and Ugly, Etc.).

Anyways, take that speculation for what it's worth.

[T-13h]

"Nothing is a secret key to this law..."

[cryaeythrs]

That's an interesting approach to take. Some more speculation: After reading your post, I noticed that Lipan Conjuring is right in the middle and separates the tracks. Could it be each set of five tracks has it's own theme/identity? Either way, I like your idea. Part of me still wonders what he is going to be saying in this language, if he even really says anything at all.

[ladiatia]

well to be completely honest im gonna drop a little sad knowledge, and i dont mean to come across as racist just stating the facts, Texas has officially become the first majority-minority state, spanish people surpassed the anglo population in '05.


wait a moment, Spanish people?
do you mean Hispanic people? Correct me if I am wrong.

[submachine]

wait a moment, Spanish people?
do you mean Hispanic people? Correct me if I am wrong.

"spanish people" simply refers to those who speak Spanish.

[Happyfunball]

wait a moment, Spanish people?
do you mean Hispanic people? Correct me if I am wrong.
I'm sure it was just a racist freudian slip :)

[submachine]

I'm sure it was just a racist freudian slip :)

the hell does "race" have anything to do with it, hippie

[tomatoms]

that's a very interesting 1st post and i'd say as close to getting to the trunk of what drives tool as i've seen. I just read an article today that BMB wrote, for Sub Rosa (#2) where he talks about DMT being set loose in the brain in mass amounts due to ritual or some kind of trigger. Really an interesting article. It is true that certain vibrational sequences can trigger physical/mental sensations/shifts, and i have as i'm sure many others have experienced this in small, subtle ways with music of certain quality. (esp. tool)
I'm aware of a chorus of 72 tones, which i have yet to hear, that comprises the true name of an entity profanely called Lucifer. It is made by sequencing individual tones emanated by the 72 goetics demons upon being called forth. this is projected from the being by use of auditory hallocinations. apparently, this chorus, which i suspect may be the one being eluded to in the Enochian texts, has been recently figured out and arranged, and is near ready to be unveiled to the (closed) public. The person who discovered the arrangement has claimed that once you hear the song, you'll never be the same. It will connect you with the being, and connect you with the soul, and it may just make you weep like a widow. Perhaps tool will touch on these tones, or keys, in the actually track. i bet some of the more 'obscure' or quant titles, like rosetta stoned and lost keys may be 'filler.'

[Happyfunball]

the hell does "race" have anything to do with it, hippie

Oh I don't know. Maybe the fact that Sol prefaced his original post with "I don't mean to come across as racist..." followed by his errent mislabelling of Hispanic people as simply Spanish. Couple all that with the understanding that this was "sad knowledge" to him and it's not too hard to see where my humorous jab stems from. Do you need to see his full quote in order to understand where the idea of race/racism came from?

As for your own comment, "Spanish people" simply refers to those who speak Spanish if you are either 1) incredibly ignorant, or 2) happened to make a rather huge mistake in reference. Sol seems like a fairly cool and reasonable individual to me so I'm inclined to think he just messed up and in fact MEANT to say Hispanic instead. I don't really think he's racist.

I'm not so certain with you however. Maybe you were just trying to clarify what you thought Sol meant to say as well. Then again, you may actually believe your statement word for word. I sincerely hope that's not the case because that would indeed be ignorant.

[Tachyon]

*golf clap* i just wanted to make sure this thread stays alive. continue please!


Offtopic: Dude, why do you have Reflection reversed as a mp3 of your signature????

[Sol Invictus]

people can be american and brittish but both can be english. Sorry if i offended anyone thats what most of the mexican americans like to be called today in the schoolse and elsewhere spanish, so i was only going with the wishes of the people i know to be less offensive if i failed in your eyes then my bad. It was off discussion anyways.

[ladiatia]

people can be american and brittish but both can be english. Sorry if i offended anyone thats what most of the mexican americans like to be called today in the schoolse and elsewhere spanish, so i was only going with the wishes of the people i know to be less offensive if i failed in your eyes then my bad. It was off discussion anyways.


Sorry, it was my bad. As I am not a native english speaker sometimes I do not get the real meaning of the language.

[noisetherapy]

The person who discovered the arrangement has claimed that once you hear the song, you'll never be the same. It will connect you with the being, and connect you with the soul, and it may just make you weep like a widow. Perhaps tool will touch on these tones, or keys, in the actually track. i bet some of the more 'obscure' or quant titles, like rosetta stoned and lost keys may be 'filler.'

who is this person? do you have a link to more info? or is it in subrosa #2 as well?

[Happyfunball]

people can be american and brittish but both can be english. Sorry if i offended anyone thats what most of the mexican americans like to be called today in the schoolse and elsewhere spanish, so i was only going with the wishes of the people i know to be less offensive if i failed in your eyes then my bad. It was off discussion anyways.
See, that's interesting because in California people were generally very offended if somebody called them Spanish. It was just considered a lazy description bordering somewhat on being racist to a lot of people, but also to maybe an even larger degree, it was a matter of nationalistic pride. In fact, I worked with a gentlemen who was from Honduras who was quite angered to always be lumped in with "Mexicans" because in his view all the nations in and around that area were all quite different. So to call him a "Mexican" or "Spanish" was angering to him because he was really neither.

But anyways, I was not offended Sol. I was pretty certain I knew what you meant, I was just making a little joke. And to that effect, I probably shouldn't have gotten so determined with Submachine either.

My apologies for the thread hi-jack.

[Sol Invictus]

Its quite alright my friend as long as differences and mis-haps can be settled in mature ways instead of bickering and name calling I am more than happy to oblige.

[submachine]

As for your own comment, "Spanish people" simply refers to those who speak Spanish if you are either 1) incredibly ignorant, or 2) happened to make a rather huge mistake in reference.

You are from Oregon so you are speaking from imagination. I am in NYC and speaking from experience.

Spanish speakers are referred to as "Spanish", the same way that white people are referred to as "American" by people here who only speak Spanish.

And "Spanish" may be a race in Oregon, but its not a race anywhere else, race has nothing to do with it.

[Octopod]

Spanish is indeed a race. You know... from Spain? They are actually of their own ethnicity. And my mom's side of the family are rife with that blood.

"Hispanic" is probably the American word you are referring to that has nothing to do with race.

[submachine]

Spanish is indeed a race. You know... from Spain?

Spain?

In Europe?

Caucasian White Race?

lmfao?

[Happyfunball]

You are from Oregon so you are speaking from imagination. I am in NYC and speaking from experience.

Spanish speakers are referred to as "Spanish", the same way that white people are referred to as "American" by people here who only speak Spanish.

And "Spanish" may be a race in Oregon, but its not a race anywhere else, race has nothing to do with it.

There are plenty of hispanic people who live in Oregon. It's not a Whites Only state. Hasn't been for quite some time now. But to quell your thoughts even further, I just recently moved back to Oregon after living in southern California for the last six years. The Inland Empire to be a little more precise. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but there's a rather large contingency of hispanic people there to go along with pretty much any other culture you might think of. So it would be hard to argue that I don't speak from experience as well.

Why would you assume that I've only ever lived in Oregon my whole life anyways? That's a horribly misguided assumption. Surely you've got better critical thinking skills than that.

A "spanish" person is somebody who comes from Spain. You know, the country in Europe that consists mostly of lighter-skinned white folk. And I'm not even certain they don't rather prefer Spaniard instead.

So when you yourself refer to someone as "spanish", is that what you're referring to? Do you assume that they must have come from Spain? Or do you instead assume they came from Mexico/Central America. Because most white people use the term "spanish" to refer to the latter which is where the notion of race and/or racism comes into play.

Go ask the average racist what a "spanish" person looks like. If they don't point to the nearest "mexican" then I'll humbly stand corrected. Otherwise, don't tell me race has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with how these people are singled out and mislabelled due to the way they look or the kind of skin tone they have.

Better yet, go to Mexico and see what kind of response you get calling everybody there "spanish".

[STA]

I don't understand any of this politically correct nonsense. I'm an American living in the UK and I get called Canadian all the time here. It doesn't offend me. I can't imagine why that sort of thing would offend anyone.

[ladiatia]

I'm Spanish. Living in Spain. Hispanic people are what we call LATIN-AMERICANS.
"Spanish" is not a race. We are white caucasian.

Anyway Let's talk about TOOL, I say sorry for contributing to all this "out of the topic" discussions.

Salud to my hispanic friends in America.

[Octopod]

"Spanish" is not a race.

You need to look up the word "race", my friend.

It's not offensive to be called a Canadien when you're a US citizen in Europe because there is no historical link to there being any sense of insult implied in the "mistake", although they may be poking fun at the fact that people in the US usually only consider citizens of their own country to be "Americans"... so I might re-examine the comments of those who call you "Canadien" in the UK. You might be the butt of a joke for all I know.

My experience has been a bit similar to Happy Funball's. I lived in CA for seven years before returning to Utah two years ago. Which is probably why I agree with him. Political correctness may not mean much when you're drinking with some pals, but that is because the dominantly white power structure basically legitimizes any racist remark you may make in mixed company. But don't be ignorant (like our aptly-named Submachine) and assume that just because your mis-labeling isn't called out by every minority within earshot that you're not offending or alienating anyone. Most people don't have the guts to correct people in public.

This is a very Tool-related topic, and related to the issues brought up by titles such as "Rosetta Stoned" and "Lost Keys". Mis-labeling is central to the points made by Die Eir Von Satan, and the image at the end of the Schism video is very indicative of a relationship that is forced physically but horrific and ugly because of LACK of communication. It is mis-labeling which allowed our current administration to go to war with Iraq by associating them with Al-Qaeda. Cuz all "those people" are the same, aren't they? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Tool revisit this theme in epic fashion on 10,000 Days.

[STA]

It's not offensive to be called a Canadien when you're a US citizen in Europe because there is no historical link to there being any sense of insult implied in the "mistake", although they may be poking fun at the fact that people in the US usually only consider citizens of their own country to be "Americans"...

So what?


so I might re-examine the comments of those who call you "Canadien" in the UK. You might be the butt of a joke for all I know.

So what?

[RedVilliam]

edit for content..

[RedVilliam]

It's pretty discusting when someone can illegally come into MY country not even try to learn MY language and get more support, help, and protection from MY government then I can. Not to mention the fact that if I get caught speeding or piss-off the wrong "good ole boy" I go to jail... yet these tresspassers against my nation whose very existance in this country is equal to terrorist crossing into the United States, walk around freely, take jobs from Americans that would gladly work, don't pay taxes, and send most their money back to Mexico instead of re-entering it into the American economy. Not to mention these protest that have been going on lately in which you have a bunch of idiotic "Mexican-Americans" or "American-Hispanic" that are actively BREAKING THE LAW abusing a Constitutional right they don't have and march on our capitals waiving the flag of another nation... I could be wrong but that's treason!

[HalfASandwidch]

It's pretty discusting when someone can illegally come into MY country not even try to learn MY language and get more support, help, and protection from MY government then I can. Not to mention the fact that if I get caught speeding or piss-off the wrong "good ole boy" I go to jail... yet these tresspassers against my nation whose very existance in this country is equal to terrorist crossing into the United States, walk around freely, take jobs from Americans that would gladly work, don't pay taxes, and send most their money back to Mexico instead of re-entering it into the American economy. Not to mention these protest that have been going on lately in which you have a bunch of idiotic "Mexican-Americans" or "American-Hispanic" that are actively BREAKING THE LAW abusing a Constitutional right they don't have and march on our capitals waiving the flag of another nation... I could be wrong but that's treason!
LOL... Americans...

[RedVilliam]

LOL... Americans...
Not for long, we're saving up to move to Canada =)

[HalfASandwidch]

Not for long, we're saving up to move to Canada =)
Damn... Well.... We got some room in between the trees out west. I don't live there so I don't gotta worry =). I hate the Americans we get in downtown Toronto, they never know when to stop behind streetcars LOL.

[RedVilliam]

We're thinking of going to Montreal, eh, but haven't ruled out T.O., eh. We're still getting together the funds and research what Canada is all aboot :D

[Sol Invictus]

And leave all the glory that is texas??? thats too bad...hahah get out while you can is what i say.

[HalfASandwidch]

We're thinking of going to Montreal, eh, but haven't ruled out T.O., eh. We're still getting together the funds and research what Canada is all aboot :D
That last word pretty much summed up what you will be researching. Come see for yourself, we spit that at each other 24/7. I'm getting tired of Toronto, I'd like to move to Vancouver (many reasons). If I do go anywhere soon though, it will be Barbados, ah yes...

EDIT:
From the way your talking you well on your way to becoming a Canadian. All you gotta do is enjoy our beer commercials... and our beer of course.

[Unstuck in Time]

Spanish is indeed a race. You know... from Spain? They are actually of their own ethnicity. And my mom's side of the family are rife with that blood.

"Hispanic" is probably the American word you are referring to that has nothing to do with race.
Wouldn't it be "Iberian"?

[RedVilliam]

What I learned from all the illegal's running around.... If you can't beat it, leave it!

[RedVilliam]

Seriously, we're not just moving for the politics (but that is a big reason). We want our daughter to have White Christmas's and we've about had our fill with the Texas climate (Two days of winter and 11 months 28 days of Summer), plus my wife and I both have family around Niagra Falls.

[Sol Invictus]

Texas weather is crazy.

[Unstuck in Time]

[...]these tresspassers against my nation whose very existance in this country is equal to terrorist crossing into the United States[...]
Life is easy.

[HalfASandwidch]

Seriously, we're not just moving for the politics (but that is a big reason). We want our daughter to have White Christmas's and we've about had our fill with the Texas climate (Two days of winter and 11 months 28 days of Summer), plus my wife and I both have family around Niagra Falls.
The weather has been really whacky here. Wasn't that much snow this year, but it was still cold as fuck and I hate Canada for that. I heard it might snow in the summer. I will not leave my house if that day comes, because it is sure to be a sign of something bad to come.

[RedVilliam]

How about yesterday when 'God' totally blocked out the sun over the entire Middle East, Africa, and the Mediterranean.... The end is truly near, we're all just waiting for the 4 horseman to show up and the antichrist to rise to power.

[HalfASandwidch]

How about yesterday when 'God' totally blocked out the sun over the entire Middle East, Africa, and the Mediterranean.... The end is truly near, we're all just waiting for the 4 horseman to show up and the antichrist to rise to power.
Someones been watchin the Stephen Colbert Report...

[submachine]

Not for long, we're saving up to move to Canada =)

LOL...Canada is Mexico with snow.

[Fulcanelli]

How about yesterday when 'God' totally blocked out the sun over the entire Middle East, Africa, and the Mediterranean.... The end is truly near, we're all just waiting for the 4 horseman to show up and the antichrist to rise to power.

If you want better (moderate) climate then move to Vancouver. It may not snow much in the city but you can always take a short drive to the local mountains.

I didn't know about the darkness... cool!

[Sol Invictus]

Canada is a loft apartment above a happening club party. haha *robin williams quote*

[submachine]

Mexico/Central America. Because most white people use the term "spanish" to refer to the latter.

White, black, yellow, red, everyone uses the term "spanish" for people in USA who speak "spanish".

The only racism here is yours, pointing the finger solely at "white people", but thats so ingrained you don't even realize you're doing it.

[submachine]

"Spanish" is not a race. We are white caucasian.

Exactly, anyone who thinks otherwise is confused.

[noisetherapy]

vancouver is the shit, you can walk around and smoke dope and nobody bothers you. the west is different from the east. the west is actually cool, and nobody in vancouver says aboot... its about...

[drone007]

i'll join in on this little talk with a few things from the first pages:

I hope this cd isn't blatantly about Enochian belief or whatever you call it. If that's what their music has been fueled by all along, that's fine; TOOL has done a good job, in that case, of veiling their meanings and letting me have my own opinions about the music. I would sure hate for TOOL to start openly preaching their own beliefs on me, because I might stop listening. I dunno if any of you listen to gospel music?..


Also, the little thing about Pi -- I don't know how it got started up, but someone wondered whether TOOL has ever experimented with Pi in their music. Seeing as though I'm a drummer and also studying engineering, I thought I could mention a few things:

Pi is definately one of those crazy numbers that may pop up in certain places, but I'm not really sure how you can use it in music. With writing music, its difficult to incorporate a non-terminating fraction... The first thing that comes into my head would be some kind of time division, think 22/7 time signature or some subdivision of that. Good luck trying to play a 7th note... Another thing you mentioned was frequency; frequencies are measured in cycles/second and have Pi inherently inside of them, so that kind of takes the magic out of it. :) To say that a building or structure has Pi incorporated in its frequency means that the natural frequency of the structure uses Pi, which actually is true for anything. I'd like to see where you read that, out of curiousity, to see if they're making something out of nothing.

[HalfASandwidch]

vancouver is the shit, you can walk around and smoke dope and nobody bothers you. the west is different from the east. the west is actually cool, and nobody in vancouver says aboot... its about...
This man knows wats up. I'd love to live in vancouver. BTW its actually the further north you go the more it sounds like people are saying aboot.

[HalfASandwidch]

Canada is a loft apartment above a happening club party. haha *robin williams quote*
Hahaha, sometimes I can't help but agree. That monkey is right.

[Octopod]

So what?

Yeah, I know. It's easy to be Gandhi when you're insulted by the dominant culture that you're a part of. It rolls right off your back, doesn't it? It's actually a bit more grating and alienating when you're not a part of the dominant culture. You said you didn't understand "political correctness" and I offered a nominal explanation. Maybe I shouldn't have bothered.

[Octopod]

The only racism here is yours, pointing the finger solely at "white people", but thats so ingrained you don't even realize you're doing it.

Uh uh. It's the dominant white culture that has the history of propagandizing their own use of racism as acceptable and "normal" in their mis-use of language without realizing it.

LOL...Canada is Mexico with snow.

I think it's safe to say that it's high time for you to go back and finish your degree. Or get a second one. This time think about majoring in English, Sociology, or History.

[Happyfunball]

White, black, yellow, red, everyone uses the term "spanish" for people in USA who speak "spanish".

The only racism here is yours, pointing the finger solely at "white people", but thats so ingrained you don't even realize you're doing it.

Yeah, you've got me pegged Sub. I hate whitey. White people are the Devil, and I'm glad I'm not one of them. I... wait a minute... oh SHIT! I AM one of them! FUCK! They have it so well, those bastards! I mean, me! I have it so well because I'm one of them! But I hate them! Do I then hate myself? No! It can't be! Dammit! Noooo! KHAAAAAAN!!!!!

But you're right. There are ignorant people of all colors and creeds who use that same errent terminology. All sorts of people can be stupid too. It's not an exclusive club. Of course, that's still not a legitimate excuse for carrying on in such a manner, but why change now, right? You've been taught that "spanish" is good enough (just as they have), why bother with any kind of accuracy.

I think we all understand that when you say "speak spanish" you mean people who LOOK like they "speak spanish". "Mexicans" right? All those southern border crossing "illegal alien" types? Don't worry Sub. That doesn't have any sort of racist or ignorant tendency attached to it. Not in the slightest.

You do realize that "Mexican" is not a race either, but that it dubbles as a racial slur? It's the same thing with "spanish". Confusing, I know. But true none-the-less.

[Happyfunball]

It's pretty discusting when someone can illegally come into MY country not even try to learn MY language and get more support, help, and protection from MY government then I can. Not to mention the fact that if I get caught speeding or piss-off the wrong "good ole boy" I go to jail... yet these tresspassers against my nation whose very existance in this country is equal to terrorist crossing into the United States, walk around freely, take jobs from Americans that would gladly work, don't pay taxes, and send most their money back to Mexico instead of re-entering it into the American economy. Not to mention these protest that have been going on lately in which you have a bunch of idiotic "Mexican-Americans" or "American-Hispanic" that are actively BREAKING THE LAW abusing a Constitutional right they don't have and march on our capitals waiving the flag of another nation... I could be wrong but that's treason!
I think you are using over-generalized assumptions about how much easier, presumably, illegal immigants have things here in America over it's legal residents. I also think it's sad how much hatred you have built up for these people in general, the vast majority of which actually are legal residents of the United States.

In any case, I'm certain if you would take the time to research your beliefs further, you would find yourself to be horribly innaccurate. Most illegal imigrants do not live the good life you assume they do.

[Florida_Mike]

Would it be completely out of the question to actually get back to talking about Lost Keys and Hoffman?

[Deoxy_Anomaly]

Would it be completely out of the question to actually get back to talking about Lost Keys and Hoffman?
Probably?

[HalfASandwidch]

When the topic reaches 2-3 pages it no longer is about the topic. So yes it would be out of question.

[Happyfunball]

By all means, add whatever you'd like to the original topic. It's what brought us into the thread in the first place.

[RedVilliam]

I think you are using over-generalized assumptions about how much easier, presumably, illegal immigants have things here in America over it's legal residents. I also think it's sad how much hatred you have built up for these people in general, the vast majority of which actually are legal residents of the United States.

In any case, I'm certain if you would take the time to research your beliefs further, you would find yourself to be horribly innaccurate. Most illegal imigrants do not live the good life you assume they do.
Ok, let me first say that I accept your opinion, but I respectfully disagree whole heartedly. Please do not buy into the liberal propaganda they obviously are spilling out to the lot of you in Eugene or Portland. For those of us on the front lines in border states it is by no means a bed of roses. Concerning ‘comfort’ I personally would love not to pay taxes but then again I’ve grown accustomed to driving on paved roads and I like attending my public university, and you know the alternative of say going to jail, thanks but no thanks. But you know what then, thanks to your wonderful guidance I’ve seen the light who needs stop lights, police officers, or even school busses, and while I’m at it why should I pay for my health insurance when I could just use the emergency room instead of our PCP and mooch off the system like our border hoping little buddies. I find you to be horribly inaccurate for turning a complete blind eye to the economical drain placed on this country by illegal immigration. Maybe things are different over their on the west coast but your absurd liberalism is down right laughable. In case you haven’t read, oh I don’t know your very own newspaper, maybe you missed the fact that Texas is the first minority-majority in the United States and guess what Mr. Gore, they weren’t all born here! Every year Texas pays nearly 100 million plus dollars on illegal immigration in one way shape or form. This cost varies from deportation, health care for all those E.R. visits, schooling for their children, and so on. This isn’t even to mention the problems of Arizona, New Mexico, or your neighbor to the south California. I could go on, but this is long enough. My suggestion to you sir/madam is that you do some research outside of your own boxed, left wing, liberalized piece of the country before you find yourself watching ignorant masses of youth skipping school to march on your city hall waving flags of another nation supporting the violation of the law for the nation they claim to support. I’ve seen that, first fucking hand in myown front yard! Have you?

[HalfASandwidch]

Ok, let me first say that I accept your opinion, but I respectfully disagree whole heartedly. Please do not buy into the liberal propaganda they obviously are spilling out to the lot of you in Eugene or Portland. For those of us on the front lines in border states it is by no means a bed of roses. Concerning ‘comfort’ I personally would love not to pay taxes but then again I’ve grown accustomed to driving on paved roads and I like attending my public university, and you know the alternative of say going to jail, thanks but no thanks. But you know what then, thanks to your wonderful guidance I’ve seen the light who needs stop lights, police officers, or even school busses, and while I’m at it why should I pay for my health insurance when I could just use the emergency room instead of our PCP and mooch off the system like our border hoping little buddies. I find you to be horribly inaccurate for turning a complete blind eye to the economical drain placed on this country by illegal immigration. Maybe things are different over their on the west coast but your absurd liberalism is down right laughable. In case you haven’t read, oh I don’t know your very own newspaper, maybe you missed the fact that Texas is the first minority-majority in the United States and guess what Mr. Gore, they weren’t all born here! Every year Texas pays nearly 100 million plus dollars on illegal immigration in one way shape or form. This cost varies from deportation, health care for all those E.R. visits, schooling for their children, and so on. This isn’t even to mention the problems of Arizona, New Mexico, or your neighbor to the south California. I could go on, but this is long enough. My suggestion to you sir/madam is that you do some research outside of your own boxed, left wing, liberalized piece of the country before you find yourself watching ignorant masses of youth skipping school to march on your city hall waving flags of another nation supporting the violation of the law for the nation they claim to support. I’ve seen that, first fucking hand in myown front yard! Have you?
Don't respond to this. ^^^^ It will only make you look stupid. Man I bet you just can't wait to move to Canada Red...

[Alex in Chains]

Please do not buy into the liberal propaganda they obviously are spilling out to the lot of you in Eugene or Portland. For those of us on the front lines in border states it is by no means a bed of roses. Concerning ‘comfort’ I personally would love not to pay taxes but then again . . .

I live in the most Soviet fucking state of all, and I don't buy the liberal propaganda. We have kids ditching school to protest something they don't even understand, clogging the FREEWAYS, and pissing me off. I support the idea of cracking down on illegal immigration wholeheartedly.

As for taxes, I think our money should be spent by the government on two things: defense and infrastructure (and the latter can be eventually phased out and into the private sector). The rest we get to keep.

[Alex in Chains]

I think you are using over-generalized assumptions about how much easier, presumably, illegal immigants have things here in America over it's legal residents. I also think it's sad how much hatred you have built up for these people in general, the vast majority of which actually are legal residents of the United States.

In any case, I'm certain if you would take the time to research your beliefs further, you would find yourself to be horribly innaccurate. Most illegal imigrants do not live the good life you assume they do.

I know they are educated and get to retire using MY money. Fuck that.

[Happyfunball]

As I've said several times already. I just recently moved back to Oregon after living in Southern California for the past six years. So thanks again for assuming like Submachine that I only have a life experience that pertains to the location posted under my screen name. You are a masterful debater.

Loved the "respectfully disagree" preface too. Was a very nice touch.

[jack_without_sally]

great first post dude, must have taken ya ages to research

[kickstandjesus]

Stop me if I'm wrong but didn't white immigrants from Europe come over and massacre the true natives to this land. I spent the first twenty years of my life in Arizona(Prescott, Tucson and Flagstaff) and all I can say is that if the Mexican immigrants didn't exist the states economy would crash. Who do you think is building those houses that are going up a city at a time.

Until people realize that corporations are running our goverment, our minds and trying to run the world. All of the bullshit that everyone bitches about will continue to exist. The world is shit and putting up a fence isn't going to change anything. Your government continues to "lie, cheat and steal still you tolerate.....beligerant fucker" baaah, baaah.

Don't trust the the left or the right i.e. D or R, they are the right and left legs of the same spider in the roles of Protagonist v. Antagonist, all on display for the public's disinformation, while behind close doors the pyramid gets bigger and the the web more expansive as the agenda for the new world order plays out in front of our eyes. Blind and dull by our pathetic materialistic and self in dulgent ways. What about me poor me, I need more for me. Meanwhile the genocide contiues across the world. Visualies what our government has done, planned to do, is doing to everyone under its powers repress, opress, regress, I digress......

To solve problems you must look closer than TV screen in front of your face and the mexicans in your community. You only need to look at the mirror in front of your face and know that you are a part of the problem, she is part of the problem and I am a part of the problem. The shadows on the cave walls aren't reality, only the shadows of a few evil men holding us captive, pitting us against one and other when our true enemies are the smiley glad hand fucks that kill maim and torture with no remorse no regret what so ever.

.....But do I spew hate? Hate and fear is what fuels the monster, I say nay, love is the most dangerous weapon to our foe, because unity and love negates greed and power and ultimately brings true piece of mind and happiness. One Love.....
Lost Keys?...... Maybe

[Unstuck in Time]

Stop me if I'm wrong but didn't white immigrants from Europe come over and massacre the true natives to this land. I spent the first twenty years of my life in Arizona(Prescott, Tucson and Flagstaff) and all I can say is that if the Mexican immigrants didn't exist the states economy would crash. Who do you think is building those houses that are going up a city at a time.

Until people realize that corporations are running our goverment, our minds and trying to run the world. All of the bullshit that everyone bitches about will continue to exist. The world is shit and putting up a fence isn't going to change anything. Your government continues to "lie, cheat and steal still you tolerate.....beligerant fucker" baaah, baaah.

Don't trust the the left or the right i.e. D or R, they are the right and left legs of the same spider in the roles of Protagonist v. Antagonist, all on display for the public's disinformation, while behind close doors the pyramid gets bigger and the the web more expansive as the agenda for the new world order plays out in front of our eyes. Blind and dull by our pathetic materialistic and self in dulgent ways. What about me poor me, I need more for me. Meanwhile the genocide contiues across the world. Visualies what our government has done, planned to do, is doing to everyone under its powers repress, opress, regress, I digress......

To solve problems you must look closer than TV screen in front of your face and the mexicans in your community. You only need to look at the mirror in front of your face and know that you are a part of the problem, she is part of the problem and I am a part of the problem. The shadows on the cave walls aren't reality, only the shadows of a few evil men holding us captive, pitting us against one and other when our true enemies are the smiley glad hand fucks that kill maim and torture with no remorse no regret what so ever.

.....But do I spew hate? Hate and fear is what fuels the monster, I say nay, love is the most dangerous weapon to our foe, because unity and love negates greed and power and ultimately brings true piece of mind and happiness. One Love.....
Lost Keys?...... Maybe
thank you. and plato.

[submachine]

KHAAAAAAN!!!!!

lol

There are ignorant people of all colors and creeds who use that same errent terminology.

The vernacular labels according to language; those who speak spanish label all those who speak english as "American". Those who speak english label all those who speak spanish as "Spanish".

Perhaps its a nod to the nations which won?

Either way thats the way it is, the vernacular of the real world, your imaginary technical definitions notwithstanding.

[tomatoms]

who is this person? do you have a link to more info? or is it in subrosa #2 as well?

Aaron C. Donahue

www.ummo.cc


this person is very controversial, and very open about some deep occult secrets. A follower of the teachings of Thelema and a continuer of "Aleister Crowley's" Great Work.

A True Man of the Earth.

[tomatoms]

and in regards to the race discussion i have three words. HUMAN FUCKING RACE.

IDIOTS

Are grey cats and calico cats different races of cats? i thought they were cats?

Beware 'creeds' that make you label things in your environment as foreign, separate, or that draw lines of disgretion where there should be none. Such is the calling card of misguided action. misguided action is often injust and prompts retaliation.

like, for instance, terrorism is a direct consequence of western imperialism.

[holotrope]

Interesting Find: The track is called Lost Keys (Blame Hoffman), right? Look at this:

Professor A. G. Hoffmann released a translation in 1833 based on this work called "Das Buch Henoch in vollständiger Uebersetxung, mit fortlaugendem Commentar, ausführlicher Einleitung und erläuternden Excursen" but due to the use at least in part of Laurence's later work there where a number of mistakes that are prevelent. Two other translations came out around the same time one in 1836 called "Enoch Retitutus, or an Attempt" (Rev Edward Murray) and in 1840 "Prophetae veteres Pseudepigraphi, partim ex Abyssinico vel Hebraico sermonibus Latine bersi" (Gfrörer). However both are considered to be poor the 1836 translation most of all and is discussed in Hoffmann, Zweiter Excurs, pages 917-965.

It deals with the translation of the Book of Enoch.

This is interesting, but given the mis-spelling of 'Hoffmann' I am inclined to go with my first reaction to the song title- While I think you are right about the "Lost Keys" in question being the catlyst of higher Knowledge or spiritual enlightenment, I think the Hoffman which is being referred to is Albert Hoffman, the man who originally synthesised LSD, for psychoterapeutic purposes. In the tradition of "Sober" and the Bill Hicks quotes at the beginning of "Third Eye," this song may contain themes about the uses of certain drugs beyond simply getting "fucked up." An interesting aside to this is the mention in Danny's official bio of the use of meditation and DMT (which, being a tryptamine, is a cousin of LSD) to attain a significant insight into a geometrical construct (which, incidentally, was first constructed by Aleister Crowley for use in Magickal rituals). Before I sign off, I have to say that (at least until it degraded into bar-room politics) your post is better than most- this is the first time I've felt like replying to one, so I had to register just to do that!

[Fourth Part Of A Circle]

and in regards to the race discussion i have three words. HUMAN FUCKING RACE.

IDIOTS

Are grey cats and calico cats different races of cats? i thought they were cats?

Beware 'creeds' that make you label things in your environment as foreign, separate, or that draw lines of disgretion where there should be none. Such is the calling card of misguided action. misguided action is often injust and prompts retaliation.

like, for instance, terrorism is a direct consequence of western imperialism.


thanks ghandi

[holotrope]

Can anyone help me with this?

It seems like a band with Tool's opinion of organized religion (see "Opiate") wouldn't be into all this Enochian stuff. Does anyone know if it's all a joke to them (like thanking Satan at the Grammys), or maybe just something they find fascinating? Do they really believe in this?
I'm personally not religious, but if I were a guy who responded to a question regarding Christianity with "I like fairy tales," I don't think I would subscribe to a religion (please, no semantic debates here) like this. I'm not pretending to know everything (or even that much) about it, but it seems like all this Enochian stuff they throw around makes even Scientology seem feasible by comparison.

-A



True- Tool have always voiced their opinion against institutionalized religion, and in fact any authority which takes the reins of our own judgement from us to inform us with its own agenda. Does this mean that they do not believe in any system of spirituality? I don't think so, and in fact I think the opposite. What Tool seem to recognize is that the ultimate Truth lies at the heart of almost all faiths, but that the organizations- those holding power over the beliefs of followers of each faith- do not hold true to the values that are held most high in a spiritual sense. Part of it is that most religions (especially the "Book" religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, but also Hinduism and others) have two sides to them- one spiritual, the other societal/political.

If you had to get a bunch of people in the desert to discover their true inner divinity, how would you do it while they all were scrambling around just to survive, stealing from and murdering each other with no consequence, etc. ??? You have to get them organized, right? So you tell them a bunch of rules which, if followed, will lead to a happy society (and make sure they follow them by saying "you'll go to hell if you don't!"), and once that happens, they'll be sitting at home doing nothing on the Sabbath day and start to think "Hmmm, I wonder what all this other stuff about God is about?" until each of them is capable of finding the spiritual side of their Existence as the highest aspect of their Being. Seen this way, I totally understand the motivation and the aim.

However, what really ended up going on throughout our history was that the leaders of the various religious institutions realized that these people who follow them will do just about anything they say. And that's where it all went wrong. Since then, religion has been used predominantly to scare people into joining with threats of Hell and eternal pain, only to submit them to the agenda of the institution which has forgotten it's cause- religion, each time it has been sent to us, has been sent to unite humanity as one. But each time, people have used the "my God-club is better than your God-club" rhetoric to stir followers up against each other, just dividing us by more and more boundaries.

I think the off-topic race discussion on this board is a perfect example of what results from this "blind leading the blind"- it has been a confused and vaguely ideological series of disagreements based largely on differing information that different people have been told, but have not investigated for themselves. And I think Tool is always against that. Likewise, since religion has not been used to guide but instead to govern, people have stopped asking questions, and instead just spout dogma. However, I believe that religion as a spiritual practice does not collapse in the face of questioning, but instead becomes an engaging, living, breathing experience which means something special and unique to your own life. The downside of that is that it is very difficult to communicate in such a way that will bring a similar experience about in another- they have to reach it on their own terms, via their own questions and realizations. And that's probably why the whole organized religion thing is so difficult to maintain without the element of governance.... I could go on forever, but I won't, I'll leave it at that and hope I answered your questions...

[ARMZ]

OMG! Lost Keys (http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=29&art_id=iol114381192272A551)

[cryaeythrs]

Good posts, Holotrope. I completely agree with you on your opinions when it comes to organized religion.

If I May Add:
From what I am seeing, I think that the organized aspect of religion is what is causing so much confusion and causing so many people to abandon their religion. I consider my religious beliefs to be Christian, but I do not like to associate myself in anyway with a particular church.

I believe we practice our religion by how we live our lives, not by how many times we go to church. One of the biggest reasons certain Christian denominations (and Christianity in general) have gotten such a bad reputation is because of the hypocritical lifestyles of the "representatives" of the church. Unfortunately, we TEND to look at the people who represent the religion in order to form our opinion of the actual religion.

People shouldn't let the actions taken by these individuals change or influence their views on the religion. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way putting down these, what I reffered to as, "hypocrytical" individuals. I am the last one to judge. I am putting down the individuals who insult a specific religion not because they disagree with the creed of the religion, but because they disapprove of the individuals who represent the religion.

Humanity = Not Perfect, therefore corruption is always plausible. Always look to the root of the religion. Not what has grown/stemmed off of it. Hopefully, this didn't sound like a sermon:)

EDIT: Although many people get frustrated when issues of politics/religion are brought up, I never see why. Yes, I know issues are involved that will never be resolved and yes I know this is a Tool forum...but I think these discussions personify the whole "Think for yourself..." concept. If more people would communicate about these things, there would be less people who think that there were WMD in Iraq and that Saddam is responsible for 9/11 (I have honestly come across people like this). We should be grateful we are even allowed to voice our own opinion, whether it be "F*** Bush" or "I Love Allah", others aren't as fortunate and, sadly, others don't even think about these things. So here's to discussing things that matter a lot more than people think they do.

[Sol Invictus]

It's because people dont want to hear opinions that do not resemble their own. It starts chipping away at the foundation they have built to support them. I think communication, as long as its civil, is an important aspect to life and peace in the world.

[cryaeythrs]

It's because people dont want to hear opinions that do not resemble their own. It starts chipping away at the foundation they have built to support them. I think communication, as long as its civil, is an important aspect to life and peace in the world.

I guess that nails it. CIVIL communication...I like that.

[Sol Invictus]

Ya i wish people would openly talk about politics and religion more than they do. It would seem as though people are either scared or totally inibriated by their beliefs.

[GregoryWohlwend]

Now that i re=read it in the past years I became quite learned in the mayan culture being an anthropologist major, i find the similiarities in this story and the one to the return of quetzacotaol and the end of the 4th age and ushering in of the 5th the age of Aquarius or the age of "christ like consciousness.
::sings "Age of Aquarius"::