View Full Version : Massy vs Bottrill vs Barresi
sularetal
03-17-2006, 03:15 AM
Does a producer make much of a difference on an album?
Massy produced > Opiate & Undertow
Bottrill produced > Aenima, Salival & Lateralus
Barresi produced > 10KDays (Alleged name)
I loved how Bottrill put together the 3 he worked on, especially Lateralus. Do you think TOOL should have stayed with him?
Or do you think a change to Barresi on 10KDays will be just as good if not better?
Idiotica
03-17-2006, 03:40 AM
bottrill produced salival? 10,000 days is self produced - barresi was engineer.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 04:22 AM
I believe JC when he says that switching to Barresi helped them move in a new direction and stuff...
hope it turns out well
Doylebag
03-17-2006, 04:52 AM
i thought massys production on the early stuff was cool, even if the drums sounded kinda dulled down. i cantwait to hear their new sound. drum production on lateralus defs the most hard hitting tho
gerbil
03-17-2006, 05:00 AM
bottrill produced salival? 10,000 days is self produced - barresi was engineer.
That's how Lateralus was credited, too. He co-produced it with Tool.
electribe1
03-17-2006, 06:26 AM
Does a producer make much of a difference on an album?
Massy produced > Opiate & Undertow
Bottrill produced > Aenima, Salival & Lateralus
Barresi produced > 10KDays (Alleged name)
I loved how Bottrill put together the 3 he worked on, especially Lateralus. Do you think TOOL should have stayed with him?
Or do you think a change to Barresi on 10KDays will be just as good if not better?
Producers make HUGE difference when recording. Styles..methods...different ears...all things change with someone else at the helm.
Sylvia Massey is one of the top producers in the world today and she OWNED the undertow process. She is the one who was able to bring out that grimey dirrrrrty sound.
David Bottrill is and was a genius producer. Aenima is arguably one of the finest productions of the 20th century and Lateralus is so clean you could eat off it. Once again the sound is driven by the producer. Aenima has that etherial cosmic sound that makes me cream and laturalus has a mature refined elder statesman prog rock feel.
Barresi I think is mainly an engineer. Tool will produce this album in terms of sound and direction. Barresi will work the controls...not much more
Tyson
03-17-2006, 06:29 AM
I don't like the production on Lateralus.
electribe1
03-17-2006, 06:30 AM
I don't like the production on Lateralus.
and thats fine...but im just saying that each production is different as a result of the producer
nchristus
03-17-2006, 07:02 AM
undertow sounds extremely dated. it has that very distinct early 90s sound; lots of reverb, tight/punchy drums, and an awkward final mix.
aenima, on the other hand is brillaint. it is mixed like classic prog rock albums and is pretty much devoid of cheesy effects.
lateralus is good, but i still prefer the sound of aenima.
who knows what the new album will sound like? i've always enjoyed barresi's work, especially with the melvins. plus, he is sort of a renegade producer with lots of unconventionalities and unique instincts.
i am sure it will sound great and will be a nice change from bottrill.
ladder_alice_11
03-17-2006, 07:08 AM
To add my two cents...
Bottrill is God. Keep in mine that he worked with King Crimson, Mudvayne and many others in the past. Also, something else I heard from another band as far as having the same producer for too long...
They had mentioned that it gets to be too much like you are friends. Once that happens, no one bounces ideas off of each other the same way. The whole process in general just changes. You see things differently (in a bad way).
I totally believe that to be true. I'm not saying that's the reason why it happened in Tool's case, but it's just something to think about i suppose.
So I'm sure Barresi did an excellent job given his history with the Melvins and other bands. We're talking production quality here.
Garguantua
03-17-2006, 07:18 AM
I think I read somewhere that Barresi helped them reach what they had always strived for, production wise.
I think this will be their "Master of Puppets" album, stylistically. You know...pushing the boundaries of sound and heaviness. Mixing awesome production with bonecrushing rif***e.
Just wishful thinking, I guess.
But I had always hoped that Adam's guitar sound would get the attention it deserved. I thought Undertow was a great "Bass" record.
Aenima was a massive drum record.
Lateralus sounded a little too polished.
Hopefully they come close to perfection this time....all parts and musicians sounding completely whole and as one.
EDIT....WTF is up with the word filters? R I F F A G E?????
paraflux
03-17-2006, 07:24 AM
Blame those who came before you.
Good thing the professor pudding hasnt seen this yet.
Producers are essential, I love bottril, but Undertow sounded good for an angry record, I think the choice for Barresi was to actually let the band members themselves step up and shape the record, he's more of the engineering type who just gets the shit done.
Isac Khrondor
03-17-2006, 07:27 AM
The production on all the Tool albums have the high and low points, but Undertow was just crap if you ask me, it sounds like a mess.
Saltank
03-17-2006, 07:40 AM
I don't consider Opiate as an album, but that was the one and only that I didn't like by TOOL.
I think the band made the right choice by swapping to Joe Barresi, change is good. Queens of the Stone Age is a cool band and their album didn't sound bad, but what I noticed in all of Barresi works is that the sound is too "Dry" - sometimes even dull. Not saying this will be carried over to 10,000 days but I think the quality will be on an entirely new level.
Bogart
03-17-2006, 08:07 AM
There are production values that I can dig on each of their albums. But my favorite produced album by them would have to be Lateralus.
mike09
03-17-2006, 08:07 AM
EDIT....WTF is up with the word filters? R I F F A G E?????
Because it's not a real word, the censor looks at the letters within. If you notice, it says F A G in there, which is most likely censored from the boards.
mike09
03-17-2006, 08:10 AM
I don't consider Opiate as an album, but that was the one and only that I didn't like by TOOL.
I think the band made the right choice by swapping to Joe Barresi, change is good. Queens of the Stone Age is a cool band and their album didn't sound bad, but what I noticed in all of Barresi works is that the sound is too "Dry" - sometimes even dull. Not saying this will be carried over to 10,000 days but I think the quality will be on an entirely new level.
I'm confident in Barresi that he'll help Tool achieve a great sound with this album. I just seriously hope it doesn't sound like QOTSA albums. You know what I'm talking about. Where the instruments don't really take advantage of being in stereo, everything is bunched together, and the distortion is very fuzzy. I'm sure that's just QOTSA's sound, I'm just saying...
gerbil
03-17-2006, 08:16 AM
I'm confident in Barresi that he'll help Tool achieve a great sound with this album. I just seriously hope it doesn't sound like QOTSA albums. You know what I'm talking about. Where the instruments don't really take advantage of being in stereo, everything is bunched together, and the distortion is very fuzzy. I'm sure that's just QOTSA's sound, I'm just saying...
That's how QotSA sounds. Lots of fuzz guitars, and a close sound.
MasterOfKtulu109
03-17-2006, 08:18 AM
It's QOTSA's sound. They use that really dry guitar sound (which I love), but Tool will want their own sound.
I'm not sure it was Bottrill's fault, but go listen to Staind's last album, Chapter V. I'm sure it was the band that was telling Bottrill what to make it sound like, but it sounds awful. The drums are almost unlistenable. Listen to the beginning of track 5 on that cd, and listen to how weak the drums are. All the drums on that cd are weak.
gerbil
03-17-2006, 08:37 AM
It sounds muffled and far-away. Which wouldn't be too bad if all you were doing was listening to it, but on the radio it's really jarring.
undertow sounds extremely dated. it has that very distinct early 90s sound; lots of reverb, tight/punchy drums, and an awkward final mix.
Is it because its 13 years old and is from the early 90's?
paganman7
03-17-2006, 09:50 AM
I suspect this has been said before, but Barresi did not produce the album, he engineered it.
If you'll remember, Adam posted some audio cases to his website many months ago, then they were suddenly taken down. The reason they were taken down is because you can clearly read on the label, Producer : Tool.
nchristus
03-17-2006, 09:56 AM
Is it because its 13 years old and is from the early 90's?
right. but aenima doesn't sound dated and it's 10 years old.
orange.juice
03-17-2006, 10:33 AM
what were these cases anyway? DAT tapes or what?
nchristus
03-17-2006, 11:22 AM
what were these cases anyway? DAT tapes or what?
probably the master tapes. or more likely outtakes. not DAT, but the acutal 2" tape.
Sol Invictus
03-17-2006, 11:28 AM
If you remember back to the crowleymas script you will notice a statement made by adad about I have to go record some more guitars for baressi tonight, always more guitars for joe. Then someone asked the producer difference and what the band thought of joe barresi and Adam said "He is a lot better of a producer than Bottrill ever was. If your tool army go back n read the transcript you will find what im talking about, so if the band thinkgs he is better im guessing they know what they wanted sound wise for this album.
SpiralOutKeepGoing
03-17-2006, 11:50 AM
I think Mr. Barresi will help Tool bring out a new sound of music the likes of which will blow our minds.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 12:01 PM
it's pretty funny reading this from a producer standpoint...
evfain
03-17-2006, 12:04 PM
undertow sounds extremely dated. it has that very distinct early 90s sound; lots of reverb, tight/punchy drums, and an awkward final mix.
aenima, on the other hand is brillaint. it is mixed like classic prog rock albums and is pretty much devoid of cheesy effects.
lateralus is good, but i still prefer the sound of aenima.
who knows what the new album will sound like? i've always enjoyed barresi's work, especially with the melvins. plus, he is sort of a renegade producer with lots of unconventionalities and unique instincts.
i am sure it will sound great and will be a nice change from bottrill.
I'm excited for the change myself. Personally, I think Bottrill did an amazing job with Lateralus, and his work on Aenema isn't as good. I love the songs on that album, but I find myself always listening to live recordings over the studio ones (unlike Lateralus, where I switch it up depending on my mood). I just think Aenema has this kinda muddy, drowning sound with it that doesn't work as much for me.
TunnelVision
03-17-2006, 02:19 PM
Opiate has a very stripped down sound but I actually think the performances, tones and mix are more consistant than Undertow. AEnima will always be the most balanced album production-wise pending the new album and Lateralus a very "grand" sounding and rhythm-centric piece. Bottrill era Tool will be a tough hurdle to clear but I think it can be done....Given the early reviews I'd bet on it.
tentonmantra
03-17-2006, 02:28 PM
Barresi did a lot of AMAZING albums...
Kyuss for example.
He may not be the "Producer" in an artistic direction sense, but his skills behind the board will make this album sound HUGE AND HEAVY.
sweet anxiety...
ATARI
03-17-2006, 02:30 PM
right. but aenima doesn't sound dated and it's 10 years old.
yes it does
guitar tone is terrible
tentonmantra
03-17-2006, 03:21 PM
yes it does
guitar tone is terrible
the girl in your avatar is kinda hot.
bass_dude
03-17-2006, 03:24 PM
Barresi did a lot of AMAZING albums...
Kyuss for example.
He may not be the "Producer" in an artistic direction sense, but his skills behind the board will make this album sound HUGE AND HEAVY.
sweet anxiety...
If he does the heavy mixing, Tool do the lighter/ more technical touches, then indeed, it will be amazing...sort of accentuating both ends. :)
Alex
Perseensilmä
03-17-2006, 03:32 PM
Because it's not a real word, the censor looks at the letters within. If you notice, it says F A G in there, which is most likely censored from the boards.
Yeah, because we don´t kinda like ***s, you know?
10000 Stinkfist Pushits
03-17-2006, 03:37 PM
Barresi did not produce this album. He was the engineer. Read it.
nchristus
03-17-2006, 03:38 PM
yes it does
guitar tone is terrible
just because you don't like the guitar tone doesn't make it dated.
Perseensilmä
03-17-2006, 03:39 PM
I thought the album was engineered... weird
zenkinet
03-17-2006, 03:39 PM
I thought the album was engineered... weird
lol
10000 Stinkfist Pushits
03-17-2006, 03:40 PM
The only producer is TOOL. It is not co-produced this time. The only Producer is Tool. That is the way it should be. Bottrill is the best Producer in rock and the only Producer better is Tool.
zenkinet
03-17-2006, 03:40 PM
The only producer is TOOL. It is not co-produced this time. The only Producer is Tool. That is the way it should be. Bottrill is the best Producer in rock and the only Producer better is Tool.
you mean when it comes to Tool
Perseensilmä
03-17-2006, 03:41 PM
Barresi did not produce this album. He was the engineered. Read it.
I thought the album was engineered... weird
I was just trying to point out that Barresi wasn´t being engineered.
10000 Stinkfist Pushits
03-17-2006, 03:42 PM
you mean when it comes to Tool
TOOL is The G.O.A.T
gerbil
03-17-2006, 03:43 PM
it's pretty funny reading this from a producer standpoint...
Do elaborate. Seriously, I'm studying this in school and I'd love to hear your take on it.
Perseensilmä
03-17-2006, 03:46 PM
If you have to ask, you shouldn´t be studying it. ***ot
tDoXoMl
03-17-2006, 04:08 PM
Because it's not a real word, the censor looks at the letters within. If you notice, it says F A G in there, which is most likely censored from the boards.
haha, your smart.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 04:42 PM
Do elaborate. Seriously, I'm studying this in school and I'd love to hear your take on it.
what exactly do you mean?
sularetal
03-17-2006, 04:47 PM
Barresi did a lot of AMAZING albums...
Kyuss for example.
He may not be the "Producer" in an artistic direction sense, but his skills behind the board will make this album sound HUGE AND HEAVY.
sweet anxiety...
Fuck I hope so!
gerbil
03-17-2006, 05:24 PM
what exactly do you mean?
Like, what is your opinion of the discussion/of Tool's production?
I think it's hillarious when people praise bottril so much just because he worked with tool. Sorry, his list of albums is not THAT impressive.
TurdEye13
03-17-2006, 05:29 PM
I loved how Bottrill put together the 3 he worked on, especially Lateralus. Do you think TOOL should have stayed with him?
they should have stayed with Bottrill.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Like, what is your opinion of the discussion/of Tool's production?
Some people just have some interesting views on what they like in production.
I personally always strive for a very cohesive, yet clear and defined sound. I never really liked Aenima's production because things aren't clearly defined enough to really appreciate the effort Tool probably put into the recording. I recognize that it was probably their intent to make it a little hazy, but I feel it was overdone.
Music that's really clean sounds way too polished to me.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 05:48 PM
Music that's really clean sounds way too polished to me.
What would be some examples of this to you? (and don't say Lateralus and Aenima as opposing examples... I'm talking a few "over cleaned" records from other bands and a few "dirty" ones from other bands)
Clutch it like an AEnima
03-17-2006, 05:52 PM
Lateralus was so clean and Polished, you could take a Dump on it and the shit would slide right off
What would be some examples of this to you? (and don't say Lateralus and Aenima as opposing examples... I'm talking a few "over cleaned" records from other bands and a few "dirty" ones from other bands)
Really clean albums? I don't really listen to any so it'd be hard to say. I wouldn't say lateralus is super clean, I don't like it's sound and it's not muddy, but I wouldn't say it's really clean either.
I'm thinking more like overproduced pop records. I enjoy the foo fighters, but those last couple of albums have been grossly overproduced and clean for my tastes.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 06:39 PM
Really clean albums? I don't really listen to any so it'd be hard to say. I wouldn't say lateralus is super clean, I don't like it's sound and it's not muddy, but I wouldn't say it's really clean either.
I'm thinking more like overproduced pop records. I enjoy the foo fighters, but those last couple of albums have been grossly overproduced and clean for my tastes.
There's a difference between "overproduced" and "clean", although I can see how they overlap. I personally don't try to overproduce, because it really changes the band around, relying on looping one "perfect" take instead of taking a live, full one. Overproduction also relies on a lot of tone editing, which again can easily hurt the true sound of the band.
Clean, to me, represents the tone quality, so little "ambient fuzz" and clear distinction of EQ.
It's true. But I would say that when someone overproduces, they generally go for the really clean sound in the process.
dracomordag
03-17-2006, 07:13 PM
It's true. But I would say that when someone overproduces, they generally go for the really clean sound in the process.
yea, I was kinda trying to say that the overproduced sound lends itself to the clean sound, because by eliminating all emotion and feeling and humanness from the track, they can get that "perfect sound" they were looking for.
my favorite example of a kickass dirty sounding album is down on the upside
ATARI
03-17-2006, 07:54 PM
my favorite example of a kickass dirty sounding album is down on the upside
you fucking kidding? That album is oversaturated and produced as hell.
I would say the best album production (with it's time frame factored in) is Faith no More's Angel Dust album. Every single instrument is strong on that album. The drums are in your face and full of life. The guitars are strong (although a little too quiet, but its more with the style). The bass punches, but doesn't have the uncessary bass noise with it. The keyboards are a little loud in the mix, but fuck keyboards. Seriously, this was released in 1992, and very few albums have even come close to the sound of that album
Neill Fraser
03-17-2006, 08:54 PM
It sounds a lot like everyones getting far too hung up on titles. Producer, engineer, mixer, they're all job titles but don't necessarily give an accurate representation of the role a person is having on the album.
Obviously if you've been reading the press etc about the album Barresi has had a profound effect on the albums sound and direction. He may be titled as the engineer (and so it appears, mixer) but his input has obviously mattered to the point that he is infact something of a co-producer. Perhaps not officially, but its fairly obvious, from the remarks that have been made by the band, that he did a lot more than place mics, edit, tweak and hit the big red button.
The man has an opinion and they obviously listened...
you fucking kidding? That album is oversaturated and produced as hell.
uh? I was talking about it sounding dirty/muddy/the guitars bleed. Nothing else.
chalimar
03-17-2006, 11:20 PM
Lateralus was so clean and Polished, you could take a Dump on it and the shit would slide right off
I had to laugh.
mike09
03-18-2006, 07:13 AM
haha, your smart.
he was asking a question and i answered it. get over it
TurdEye13
03-18-2006, 02:46 PM
Bottrill > Massy
cold and faded anger
03-18-2006, 03:11 PM
...uhm, not to piss people off but isnt it a possiblity that Lustmord may have produced it? after all he did those Parabol and Schism remixes...just a thought...
zenkinet
03-18-2006, 03:21 PM
...uhm, not to piss people off but isnt it a possiblity that Lustmord may have produced it? after all he did those Parabol and Schism remixes...just a thought...
UH... no
Waldo Geraldo Faldo
03-18-2006, 03:24 PM
Aenima and Lateralus sound muddy, and to be frank, like shit.
Undertow sounds very crisp and vibrant, I think it's the best sounding one by far.
dracomordag
03-18-2006, 04:43 PM
Aenima and Lateralus sound muddy, and to be frank, like shit.
Undertow sounds very crisp and vibrant, I think it's the best sounding one by far.
HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA
dracomordag
03-18-2006, 04:53 PM
/sarcasm off.
i hope so
I can't even laugh now. All the good laughing has been taken.
Animus X torsi
03-18-2006, 06:59 PM
on the radio, sober sounds like shit, but schism and lateralus sound ok
ATARI
03-18-2006, 07:00 PM
on the radio, sober sounds like shit
Yeah I noticed that too. I heard it yesterday and was like WTF is the DJ playing it through a fucking telephone or something???
Animus X torsi
03-18-2006, 07:01 PM
is it because of bad production or becuse of the radio station?
Mr.Rubberburner
03-18-2006, 07:02 PM
they should have got p. diddy
Animus X torsi
03-18-2006, 07:03 PM
maybe pdiddy will steal the pot's main riff, make a cop out song, and reach #1 with "Chronic" by P Diddy
Mr.Rubberburner
03-18-2006, 07:05 PM
with Jimmy Page on guitar
HalfASandwidch
03-18-2006, 07:05 PM
Or maybe p. diddy will eat pot and die. And we'll all be happy.
Animus X torsi
03-18-2006, 07:07 PM
and then mtv will inevitably fall
Clutch it like an AEnima
03-18-2006, 07:07 PM
maybe pdiddy will steal the pot's main riff, make a cop out song, and reach #1 with "Chronic" by P Diddy
then i would shoot myself
Mr.Rubberburner
03-18-2006, 07:10 PM
but seriously, they should have kept Bottrill. Superior over Massy, and Barresi...i don't know..it's gonna be more off the wall MElvinish i think...i hope not. But yeah Bottrill had it down. Barresi has big shoes to fill. But somebody brought up a good point..it's Tool, you know. They are the bread and butter. It'll rock.
Animus X torsi
03-18-2006, 07:11 PM
maynard has mixed for nin before has he not?
Yeah I noticed that too. I heard it yesterday and was like WTF is the DJ playing it through a fucking telephone or something???
no actually he's playing it through the RADIO, loss of quality is what happens. Just thinking about how many times a piece of music (especially at an all digital station) has been compressed only to have it done again as it's broadcast from a radio station, ugh
ÆmorphousEnigma
03-18-2006, 07:56 PM
I've never much liked Adam's guitar sound. Sometimes it fits well with the song, other times it's grating on the ears. Heck, I've heard brutal death metal bands with a more apealing guitar sound. Maybe Barresi will make it sexier.
Kyuss sound has it's charm... no CD can make me crank up the volume a high as I do for Welcome to Sky Valley. For Tool, I think I'd rather have more clarity though...
Animus X torsi
03-18-2006, 08:04 PM
i think it matters what direction the band wants to go. if the continue in the direction they've been hinting, with down to earth bluesy and tribal stuff, then i doubt there will be much production, and more of an intimate live feel
cadav
03-20-2006, 07:36 PM
I've never much liked Adam's guitar sound. Sometimes it fits well with the song, other times it's grating on the ears. Heck, I've heard brutal death metal bands with a more apealing guitar sound. Maybe Barresi will make it sexier.
This totally upsets the apple cart that is my brain.
Adams guitar sound is to my ears, absolutely wonderful. Over the years I've changed my opinion of him vastly. At first I thought he had a nice tone, not very technical, but composed some *really* nice riffs. More an artist, than a technician.
As the years passed, and more tool-sound-a-like bands cross my ears, I realise just how unique and awesome his playing style / sound is, and how little even comes close.
He does the simple things so precisely and uniquely. Anyone can do pick scrapes and evil sounding drop-D crunch, but not one does it nearly as well. There's a detail and intelligence to the way to transfers between guitar segments so organically. Also I think a percentage of this is down to just how well he nailed his guitar tone. It seems more "alive" than almost any other.
Personally, it's all about Aenima for me. Yeah, I'm one of those who subscribe to it being just about the best album ever created. I've actually stripped out the center channel from that recording and listened to just L/R extremes and vice verca (.....fuck should I be admitting this? it's hella-nerdy :) just to get a clearer listen to that guitar tone and other little nuances that make up the album. This was also the point I realised aenima is the most deeply layered and rewardingly complex listen I've had. It blew my mind. New gifts from the Cd that just keeps on giving. (sometimes in an un-nerving "how can this be so good?" way)
I actually should post on this separately instead of babbling on.
So I just can't fathom jabs at his guitar sound, particularly on Aenima where it sounds so .......alive! (It all got very machine-like and cold on Lateralus, but still good stuff)
Anway ....thread....I gotta go with Bottril from what we know. Tool/Barresi is an unknown quantity, but I would bet on "awesome."
jack_shit
03-20-2006, 08:35 PM
Bottrill ruined lots of bands' albums.
I thought Undertow had the best sound of all the albums, but I'm biased because I heard it first, it's my favorite, and I think it would be hard to argue that lyrically, it isn't superior to the others. But then again, what do I know?
Goldfoot
03-20-2006, 08:50 PM
Do you think TOOL should have stayed with him?
Or do you think a change to Barresi on 10KDays will be just as good if not better?
Your second question negates the first. We don't know how it is so we can't rightly decide if we think they should have stayed with him.
Bassmingo
03-20-2006, 09:47 PM
This totally upsets the apple cart that is my brain.
Adams guitar sound is to my ears, absolutely wonderful.
I realise just how unique and awesome his playing style / sound is
He does the simple things so precisely and uniquely. how well he nailed his guitar tone.
I agree.
I've actually stripped out the center channel from that recording and listened to just L/R extremes and vice verca (.....fuck should I be admitting this? it's hella-nerdy :)
I've done this myself, particularly with lateralus, drums, hidden vocals,. extra bass parts all pop out at you, its fun to listen to it that way, then go back and listen to it normally and its much clearer.
A lateralus/aenima double album is my choice when i'm asked my favourite tool album. its like asking who your favourite child is, I consider undertow to be the red headed stepchild of the bunch, production wise, i just dont like what massey did, the next two albums are a band refining and controlling their sound, and bottrill helped bring that out. they now want to refine it further, and for reasons known to them, they feel baresi is the man. we'll wait and see.
Khastra_KSC
03-20-2006, 11:28 PM
Change is the best possible thing for any band. If a band wants to better themselves and their music they have to change and evolve and learn and grow.
ÆmorphousEnigma
03-21-2006, 12:16 AM
True, let's hope that Tool changes for the better.
undertow works the way it is. I like the memories it gives and the sound off of it. it works for the album. I would not want it to sound any other way.
Goldfoot
03-21-2006, 12:34 AM
But then again, what do I know?
Your SN.
Heh, I had to.
eL-TooLo
03-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Yes I think Berresi helped on the new Tool album. First of all, Buzz Osborne from The Melvins recommended him to Tool, and Buzz Osborne is a genius (in my opinion) in the stoner music scene. Barresi also worked with Kyuss (another stoner rock band) and many other stoner rock band... and it is defenitly clear that the next Tool album will be a stoner rock album, it will defenitly talks about weed (titles like "The Pot", "Wings for Marie", "Rosetta Stoned", etc)... so be prepare for some "chronic" music!
dekard49
03-21-2006, 12:14 PM
I agree.
I've done this myself, particularly with lateralus, drums, hidden vocals,. extra bass parts all pop out at you, its fun to listen to it that way, then go back and listen to it normally and its much clearer.
How do you do this? ... Its an SACD, so the vocals should be panned to the centre channel? So removing the speakier should do it?
Bassmingo
03-21-2006, 02:19 PM
I use Wavelab with a karaoke vst plugin, which basically acts as a centre canceller, that is, anything dead centre in the mix (usually vocals and bass guitar) is lowered in volume. It works best on wavs rather than mp3's and I use it as a resource for figuring out guitar parts (as guitar parts are usually hard panned). On tool albums however, I've found them to be mixed a little differently, i get a lot of the drum overhead mics, extra stereo bass parts, some mono guitar parts disappear allowing the listener to hear stuff you might have missed (hidden vocals etc) If anyone is interested I'd be happy to post up audio clips later when i get home.
And lateralus is a HDCD not an SACD. SACD is a 5.1 audio format, HDCD is a high def stereo audio format.
orange.juice
03-21-2006, 02:23 PM
^ this is actually pretty damn cool. I got a pair of "broken" headphones which do the same.
Goldfoot
03-21-2006, 02:29 PM
I use Wavelab with a karaoke vst plugin, which basically acts as a centre canceller, that is, anything dead centre in the mix (usually vocals and bass guitar) is lowered in volume. It works best on wavs rather than mp3's and I use it as a resource for figuring out guitar parts (as guitar parts are usually hard panned). On tool albums however, I've found them to be mixed a little differently, i get a lot of the drum overhead mics, extra stereo bass parts, some mono guitar parts disappear allowing the listener to hear stuff you might have missed (hidden vocals etc) If anyone is interested I'd be happy to post up audio clips later when i get home.
And lateralus is a HDCD not an SACD. SACD is a 5.1 audio format, HDCD is a high def stereo audio format.
I don't understand how you can get a center channel out of right and left. Audio CDs are stereo, which is two channels, not three. Are you just taking out stuff that is on both channels?
Perseensilmä
03-21-2006, 02:30 PM
yes
paraflux
03-21-2006, 02:35 PM
If you have a left and a right, there has to be a center. A center canceller takes what isnt panned one way or the other and drops its volume. Therefore you are left with the stuff that only panned to the left or right and not dead in the middle.
Bassmingo
03-21-2006, 02:41 PM
Pretty much Goldfoot, yes. When an album is recorded/mixed, bass and vocal tracks are usually recorded in mono (singular tracks) and when mixed are commonly place dead centre in the stereo image (also called centre pan, 12'oclock or straight up) You correctly said that cd's are stereo audio (two tracks) so when an album is mixed down to stereo a centre panned track will be in both speakers equally.
I'll explain better by way of example: there is a mono guitar track in Parabola, when i pass it through my centre canceller, it disappears allowing me to hear the rest of the mix a bit better (its not the only guitar track on the song, there are some stereo ones too)
hope this helps.
dekard49
03-21-2006, 03:06 PM
If anyone is interested I'd be happy to post up audio clips later when i get home.
.
That would be much appreciated :)
dracomordag
03-21-2006, 03:10 PM
Bottrill ruined lots of bands' albums.
I thought Undertow had the best sound of all the albums, but I'm biased because I heard it first, it's my favorite, and I think it would be hard to argue that lyrically, it isn't superior to the others. But then again, what do I know?
jack_shit.
EDIT: beat me to it... :(
sularetal
03-21-2006, 04:26 PM
Yes I think Berresi helped on the new Tool album. First of all, Buzz Osborne from The Melvins recommended him to Tool, and Buzz Osborne is a genius (in my opinion) in the stoner music scene. Barresi also worked with Kyuss (another stoner rock band) and many other stoner rock band... and it is defenitly clear that the next Tool album will be a stoner rock album, it will defenitly talks about weed (titles like "The Pot", "Wings for Marie", "Rosetta Stoned", etc)... so be prepare for some "chronic" music!
Chronic music is goooood dude.
Bassmingo
03-21-2006, 05:10 PM
Ok heres my first example, its the first verse of lateralus from 2m04sec to 2m32sec and with the mono tracks gone (or at least lowered a bit) you can hear the backing vocals and drums a little clearer, apologies for the quality, its from an mp3.
http://rapidshare.de/files/16104890/latverse1.mp3.html
Bassmingo
03-21-2006, 05:38 PM
Example no. 2: The middle section of lateralus, from where the drums enter. notice the extra bass track pedalling the D note and the backing vocals fading in and out.
http://rapidshare.de/files/16105852/latmid1.mp3.html
cadav
03-21-2006, 06:22 PM
I don't understand how you can get a center channel out of right and left. Audio CDs are stereo, which is two channels, not three. Are you just taking out stuff that is on both channels?
How do you do this? ... Its an SACD, so the vocals should be panned to the centre channel? So removing the speakier should do it?
I just made a huge post on it here...
http://www.toolnavy.com/showthread.php?p=833300#post833300
Basically, like the other guys said, stereo is effectively 3 channel. Instruments can still be quite nicely isolated in stereo if mixed right.
as you are about to find out with one of THESE neat plugins...... :)
Foobar :
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17661
Winamp:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17450
In that stupidly huge and rambling post I just linked to above, you can get an idea of what to listen for, in this case, on aenima, with the plugin installed.
Bassmingo
03-21-2006, 06:42 PM
excellent work.
Thanks for those samples Bassmingo. Would be interesting to hear these techniques applied to other artists music, especially Nine Inch Nails.
Bassmingo
03-21-2006, 06:59 PM
Heres all of lateralus (the song) for your listening pleasure. (i love the bass whammy overdub at the end)
http://rapidshare.de/files/16109025/latall1.mp3.html
cadav
03-21-2006, 08:12 PM
Bassmingo, I'm going to go through Lateralus again now that I've heard those clips, I obviously didn't give it enough attention before. Thanks for those clips!
Bassmingo
03-22-2006, 06:54 AM
Let me know what you think!
dracomordag
03-22-2006, 03:16 PM
It's great taking bands such as Porcupine Tree and Oceansize that so heavily pan their work and doing this to it... really brings new insight.
Bassmingo
03-22-2006, 04:05 PM
Porcupine Tree and Oceansize.
Good taste, Deadwings been on constant rotation in my house lately.
What do you think of dredg?
dracomordag
03-22-2006, 04:14 PM
Good taste, Deadwings been on constant rotation in my house lately.
What do you think of dredg?
good shit.
I have my library on random between Radiohead, Porcupine Tree, Oceansize, dredg, and Pineapple Thief right now.
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