Wings for Marie, 10000 days & Jimmy [Archive]

Big Fat Matt

03-14-2006, 06:08 PM

I tried doing some math....

10000 days - 27.4 years

jimmy - 11

MJK D.O.B. - 17 april, 1964

Judith MARIE Keenan passed away - June 18th, 2003

Maynards age at this time - 39

Now add 10000 days to Jimmy's 11 and you get 38.4 years

10000 days may be the approximate amount of time from something that happened at jimmy's eleven to his mother's passing???

Count 10000 days backwards from June 18th 2003 and you get to about Jan 30th 1976 when MJK would have been 11 years old, about to turn 12 on April 17th that year...

Oh

Mah

Fuckin

Gawd

Dude, get a life. I'm not tryin to belittle you or insult you, that is VERY deep and complex[and good] but JESUS WAFFLE-MAKING CHRIST! get a job!

meatstick

03-14-2006, 06:21 PM

Jesus makes waffles?

Hodge

03-14-2006, 06:23 PM

aunt jemima

Kurt Russell

03-14-2006, 06:26 PM

How did you come to the conclusion that he doesn't have a job? Because he spent a few minutes on something that might possible be of interest? Fuck off.

Sasha

03-14-2006, 06:27 PM

balls deep
elbows are betta!

bunny_309

03-14-2006, 06:28 PM

My two cents:
I think it's hard to speculate about who 'marie' is based on the very limited amount of information most people in this forum have about the band members' personal lives...
Now I haven't studied every post to see if someone brought this up (there's a lot of activity in this forum), but my guess is that the song(s) are, in fact, named to reflect that someone died. It seems to me most logical that whoever it refers to lived approximately 10,000 days or about 27 1/2 years. Or it could also reflect how long someone lived with an illness that eventually killed her. I mean, this seems the most logical, but also it doesn't necessarily seem the most toolish.
Then again, I think all of the official album info is a more organized and grander version of toolshed's annual april fools joke.

-ben-

(and thanks in advance for your warm welcome to the forum... I've been coming to toolshed regularly since 1996 and reading the opinion forum for a long time as well, I'm just more of a lurker than a contributer or maybe you'd say a leech)

thejesus

03-14-2006, 06:29 PM

I doubt the band would name the record after an experience that is unique to Maynard...

The themes of the records aren't usually very personal either

welb

03-14-2006, 06:32 PM

Interesting theory.

dracomordag

03-14-2006, 06:34 PM

good find

not sure if it has any bearing on the album, but this is much more likely than a lot of other things posted here

Idiotica

03-14-2006, 06:36 PM

actually, the time is on my wrist - close to my hands yes.

the usual

03-14-2006, 06:37 PM

not bad
anything is conceivable
well almost
excpt for a tool album named !)<))) DAYS!
or maybe.............

A Tad Bit Catatonic

03-14-2006, 07:29 PM

I'n not gonna pretend like I know. But it does make damn good sense. I dunno know about the whole 10000 days theory here lol (actually it's not that bad, really)... But considering Maynard took arguably Billy's best composition ever, and turned it into the epicness of Judith, based on his mother, well it's not that far fetched. His mother died, they had apparently struggled over alot of things during their time, but he probably still loved her very much, and this will maybe be his tribute to her. The band would go for that. She went to "her heaven" and finally gets those wings she was after for all those years.

Also with Andy King's review potentially lining up with the 10000 days track, and the lyrical snippet consisting of, "you always held your head up high, now it's my time, my time, MINE" - that is another possble part of the puzzle. And we all know, even the band mates know that Maynard is the REAL driving force behind their popularity, (not to say they're not all insanely amazing) but lyrically and vocally they seem to give him free range. And I suspect it is because when he's writing, those emotions he conjurs up take a hell of alot of digging up, and writing about really personal stuff helps to do this, alot. Afterall I think we can all agree that Maynard is probably the most, if not the most truly tangible emotional vocalist in all of music - and that's gotta take some fucking digging from deep down in your soul. I think if it is about "Marie" though, there will be a fully attached objective, and metaphorical way about how he's relating things through her, as there usually is, well especially with Tool, as opposed to APC. I think it's beautiful though, if this does hapen to be what it's about.

I won't even pretend to KNOW, we'll just have to wait it out =P

but it makes good sense, damn good sense.

Staticfactory

03-14-2006, 07:49 PM

good find

not sure if it has any bearing on the album, but this is much more likely than a lot of other things posted here

I agree... it's definitely a new angle on the subject. My eyes have certainly glazed over far too much to read through most people's posts tonight.

I really wish the retards that occupy Toolnavy would think twice before posting. It would save us all the urge to shoot them in the face. This guy obviously put some thought into his post... yes, more thought than it takes to say "bin" or "die of cancer" or "lol you suck".

Yes, and it makes more sense than the cycle of saturn, which takes roughly 29 years. Douchebags.

Edit: Great, thanks a lot.. now I have the hiccups!!

kyyuulle

03-14-2006, 07:52 PM

log jammin'

TurdEye13

03-14-2006, 07:52 PM

I seriously didnt know that Maynard's mother's middle name was "Marie" until just now.

TurdEye13

03-14-2006, 07:53 PM

log jammin'

HAHA!!

A Tad Bit Catatonic

03-14-2006, 07:58 PM

Read it a little closer, actually that is an awesome theory... very possible I think...

Mya

03-14-2006, 08:14 PM

Interesting theory.

nice 'tar

Lamb & Martyr^

03-14-2006, 08:34 PM

Jesus only made blue berry waffles. They were apparentlly quite good.

dracomordag

03-14-2006, 08:39 PM

nice 'tar

but IT MOVES!!!

Mya

03-14-2006, 08:42 PM

but IT MOVES!!!

thats what makes it cool..... :P

Hannibal

03-14-2006, 08:43 PM

good find

not sure if it has any bearing on the album, but this is much more likely than a lot of other things posted here

i disagree. While the idea is very inviting, and could possibly one of the deepest Tool tracks, I think the links to Jimmy are not stable enough. I think Jimmy has nothing to do with Wings for Marie or 10,000 Days. And while I'm not sure what (or more precisely, who) Jimmy is about, I don't think its Maynard.

SpiralOutKeepGoing

03-14-2006, 09:32 PM

Read it a little closer, actually that is an awesome theory... very possible I think...

agreed.

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 09:38 PM

Too much time on your hands.
you're just mad you didn't think of it

Mya

03-14-2006, 09:40 PM

i disagree. While the idea is very inviting, and could possibly one of the deepest Tool tracks, I think the links to Jimmy are not stable enough. I think Jimmy has nothing to do with Wings for Marie or 10,000 Days. And while I'm not sure what (or more precisely, who) Jimmy is about, I don't think its Maynard.

why not? Considering Maynard's middle name is James.... its possible....

Systolic

03-14-2006, 09:42 PM

Umm... I dont know what to think.. Its cool, but a bit convoluted.

TickTock

03-14-2006, 10:30 PM

SadSummerSea

03-14-2006, 10:35 PM

if tool wanted to hide a mathematical clue in their album title
i hope they'd give us something a lil more challenging than simple adding/subtracting.

Hodge

03-14-2006, 10:41 PM

on the next tool album we may see the song "a redbull for herbert."

haha, redbull gives you wings

Froudie

03-14-2006, 10:50 PM

A few further points regarding my original post...

1. MJK’s mother suffered a brain aneurysm 27 years (approx 10000 days) prior to her passing… http://www.timesreporter.com/printable.php?ID=20193

2. 'Wings for Marie' could reference his mother Judith MARIE Keenan/Garrison... the songs 'Wings for Marie' and '10000 Days' are linked as being part 1 & 2 of a bigger musical piece...

3. 10000 days prior to her passing, MJK would have been 11 years old as described in the first post of this thread…

4. The song ‘jimmy’ references the number ‘11’

"eleven and she was gone
eleven is when we waved goodbye
eleven is standing still
waiting for me to free him by coming home"

"eleven has been and will be waiting"

"hold your light, eleven"

"'til one and one are one, eleven
so glow, child, glow"

5. ‘jimmy’ could be in reference to James, Maynard’s birth name… this is mentioned in the FAQ (http://toolshed.down.net/faq/faq.html)

G47. Who is this "Eleven" guy he keeps talking about in "jimmy"?
The singer is referring to himself at age eleven. Go listen to the song again, it will make a motherload more sense now.

G48. OK, but who the heck is "jimmy" anyhow?!
All you get is a hint: he's listed in the liner notes. Read 'em slowly. Don't give up.

G49. So "jimmy" is from Ohio, then?
Yup, he spent some amount of his childhood there. At shows in Ohio, he mentioned a small town called Ravenna. Happy hunting.

G50. Why is "jimmy" written in lowercase?
(It really is, look closely). Because he's just a kid.

G51. I heard somewhere that "jimmy" was about how Maynard's mother died when he was 11.
This "fact", reported in Rolling Stone magazine, was actually just a (big) mistake on their part; Maynard's mother is still alive. They did print a retraction later.

... could 'jimmy' then actually be about his mother's brain aneurysm when MJK was aged 11... this condition would ultimately cause her passing 27 years or 10000 days later... thus we have 2 song names and the album title for the new tool record which were inspired by MJK's mum...

Hodge

03-14-2006, 10:54 PM

whoa

Froudie

03-14-2006, 11:14 PM

Further points to add...

Perhaps Judith Marie Keenan put up with the side effects of her aneurysm for 10000 days.... and still held faith in her god... who did this to her...

reference the lyrics to the APC song 'Judith'... also linked to MJK's mum....

"Oh so many ways for me to show you
How your savior has abandoned you
Fuck your God
Your Lord and your Christ
He did this
Took all you had and
Left you this way"

"Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you"

Symptoms of an aneurysm;
from http://health.allrefer.com/health/aneurysm-in-the-brain-symptoms.html

Pay special attention to Muscle weakness, difficulty moving any part of the body
Numbness or decreased sensation in any part of the body,Seizures
Slow, sluggish, lethargic movement

these could be interpreted as 'broken down and paralyzed'

TickTock

03-14-2006, 11:15 PM

Article;

http://www.timesreporter.com/printable.php?ID=20193

A few further points regarding my original post...

1. MJK’s mother suffered a brain aneurysm 27 years (approx 10000 days) prior to her passing… (see link above)

2. 'Wings for Marie' could reference his mother Judith MARIE Keenan/Garrison

3. 10000 days prior to her passing, MJK would have been 11 years old as described in the first post of this thread…

4. The song ‘jimmy’ references the number ‘11’

"eleven and she was gone
eleven is when we waved goodbye
eleven is standing still
waiting for me to free him by coming home"

"eleven has been and will be waiting"

"hold your light, eleven"

"'til one and one are one, eleven
so glow, child, glow"

5. ‘jimmy’ could be in reference to James, Maynard’s birth name… this is mentioned in the FAQ

G47. Who is this "Eleven" guy he keeps talking about in "jimmy"?
The singer is referring to himself at age eleven. Go listen to the song again, it will make a motherload more sense now. (from the Tool FAQ)

also from the FAQ...

G51. I heard somewhere that "jimmy" was about how Maynard's mother died when he was 11.
This "fact", reported in Rolling Stone magazine, was actually just a (big) mistake on their part; Maynard's mother is still alive. They did print a retraction later.

... could 'jimmy' then actually be about his mother's brain aneurysm when MJK was aged 11... this condition would ultimately cause her passing 27 years or 10000 days later... thus we have 2 song names and the album title for the new tool record

damn! you are on to something good job. i can totally see this being about manyards mom.

guildmaster

03-14-2006, 11:32 PM

Wow. If this ends up being the case (which for now, I am convinced it is) I have a completely new respect for the title of the album.

idontmind462

03-14-2006, 11:37 PM

Maynard's real name is James Walker Keenan. Try and doubt me.

by the way... your concepts of the song jimmy are very interesting. wrong, but interesting.

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:39 PM

Maynard's real name is James Walker Keenan. Try and doubt me.
are you sure?

idontmind462

03-14-2006, 11:42 PM

All of this gurantees the 10,000 Days album title to be fake.

weak&weary

03-14-2006, 11:44 PM

he's sure

Psychedelica

03-14-2006, 11:45 PM

Maynard's real name is James Walker Keenan. Try and doubt me.

by the way... your concepts of the song jimmy are very interesting. wrong, but interesting.

I thought his middle name was Herbert

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:45 PM

All of this gurantees the 10,000 Days album title to be fake.
dude, c'mon..can't we just come to terms that."oh...gee...wow...neato..the album is ....

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:46 PM

dude, c'mon..can't we just come to terms that."oh...gee...wow...neato..the album is ....
called

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:46 PM

called
10000

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:48 PM

10000
FUCKING DAYS!!!....get over it...accept it...love it...cuddle it

Psychedelica

03-14-2006, 11:49 PM

Stroke it

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:49 PM

whip it

Psychedelica

03-14-2006, 11:49 PM

whip it good

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:50 PM

...when 10,000 days comes out...

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:51 PM

you must whip it

weak&weary

03-14-2006, 11:51 PM

omg the arctic monkeys

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:53 PM

I thought his middle name was Herbert
it is Herbert, he's just being a clownjerk

idontmind462

03-14-2006, 11:55 PM

http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formprocessor/copyright/locis.pl
First one, Author on Copyright Application; James W. Keenan.

Now ask me how I know it's Walker.

idontmind462

03-14-2006, 11:56 PM

Yeah, he lied to a government agency of his own name for his own art.

Mr.Rubberburner

03-14-2006, 11:57 PM

dude the copyright thing got old, seriously

idontmind462

03-14-2006, 11:57 PM

What are you talking about?

idontmind462

03-14-2006, 11:58 PM

Tool fans are dense.

Hannibal

03-15-2006, 12:01 AM

why not? Considering Maynard's middle name is James.... its possible....

'it is very possible, i just don't think its likely. I never once thought Jimmy was about Maynard, and as we are often exposed to in Tool's music (but not all the time), is the concept of a metaphor.

That being said, this concept is very good, and I think it is possible, but I still don't think its that easy. Putting aside that I still think this is all a ruse by the band, the Wings for Marie and 10,000 days two part song are interesting, and as one earlier post suggested, if this is indeed what 10,000 Days is about, it makes me think higher of the title.

However, as SummerSadSea (I think?) said, it seems too simple to be figured out just by looking at the track titles, and simple math. Maybe I'm giving the band too much credit, which is possible, I just see them as forming music that you must listen to first before you can interpret what its about.

Some good stuff on Jimmy though, as i said, never thought it was about Maynard, but it would make sense. one of the better threads lately.

Froudie

03-15-2006, 12:04 AM

[QUOTE=idontmind462]Maynard's real name is James Walker Keenan. Try and doubt me.

It doesn't matter what his real middle name is... the focus is on 'jimmy' which could be an accepted variation of James (his birthname) and as said before, the song 'jimmy' is referring to the singer at age 11 (as mentioned in the FAQ)... thus I'm guessing that the song Jimmy is actually about MJK at age 11...

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 12:32 AM

Froudie

03-15-2006, 01:11 AM

It's much deeper than that, you see. The significance of the number 1, being as a whole, is a person. Him saying "and 1" is referencing to another whole side of said person. Until that person learns to merge the two, he'll forever be 11. A person next to themselves... and never inside, 1.

Mathematics have little to do with it, one and one=11. one and one being one=1. I guess you could say these are halves of one true person, after all, every whole has two halves.

'til one and one are one, eleven.

I like that interpretation....

and truth be told I have no idea what the song is about... just putting some information together that seems to fit..

Another possible explanation however...
Could the song be about the relationship between MJK and his mom at the time after her near death experience (brain aneurysms I'm sure are pretty nasty)... She may have had several mental and physical disabilties as a result of the aneurysm. Once again, side effects of aneurysms - http://health.allrefer.com/health/aneurysm-in-the-brain-symptoms.html

finally, at times the song takes the perspective of MJK and sometimes of the mother...

JIMMY

what was it like to see
the face of your own stability
suddenly look away
leaving you with the dead and hopeless?
(MJK's mum suffering the aneurysm, a mother at that age would be a face of stablity, she gets sick or 'looks away' leaving you on your own)

eleven and she was gone
eleven is when we waved goodbye
(age that it happened)

eleven is standing still
waiting for me to free him by coming home
(Mum knows that MJK (eleven) is waiting (standing still) for her to get better)

moving me with a sound
opening me within a gesture
drawing me down and in
showing me where it all began
eleven
(Mum singing to MJK... his actions (sounds and gestures) remind her of what her life once was)

was too scarred to realize
you are the voice that's been calling me back home
(MJK is the voice wanting his mum to come home - get better, his mother was too sick to know this)

under a dead ohio sky
eleven has been and will be waiting
defending his light and wondering
(MJK is waiting and showing a light to lead her way to health)

where the hell have i been?
sleeping, lost, and numb
i'm so glad that i have found you
i am wide awake and heading home
(Mother singing again, wondering what's been going on, her son finally gets through to her)

[mutterings; "..hold your light where i can see"]
(musical nterlude is her passage back to health, with these mutterings of 'hold your light')

hold your light, eleven
lead me through each gentle step by step by inch by loaded memory
i'll move to heal as soon as pain allows
so we can reunite and both move on together
(the reuniting of mother and son, MJK leading her back from sickness)

hold your light, eleven
lead me through each gentle step by step by inch by loaded memory
'til one and one are one, eleven
so glow, child, glow

i'm heading back home

probably not right, rather poorly explained, but maybe...

A song dealing with the aftermath and complications of a life threatening illness where MJK played a part in restoring his mother health...

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 01:15 AM

That was quite fucking brilliant, man. Extremely possible, but regardless... it's not what the song means, it's what it means to you.

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 01:18 AM

What I wrote I pulled out of my own experiences. I wrote what jimmy means to me, just in a way only tt.net people would understand.

Froudie

03-15-2006, 01:22 AM

Yeah, it totally is what it means to you... I really like that song and it would have no relevanece to my personal experience if I used that interpretation.. I was offering that viewpoint to support the idea that 10000 days and Wings for Marie are related to MJK's mother and her battle with illness and subsequent passing...

ElDespertador

03-15-2006, 01:28 AM

NoD

03-15-2006, 02:32 AM

I knew there had to be a connection between maynard's mom and 10,000 days (as the songs are 2 parts of one song [ 1 and 1 (eleven) becoming 1??], but I didn't try to find the facts. Kudos frouders. If mjk's mom did in fact have her stroke on jan. 31 of 76 you deserve some type of award...perhaps some russian tea cakes

2and46

03-15-2006, 04:34 AM

I thought his middle name was Herbert

So did I.

Happyfunball

03-15-2006, 05:19 AM

It's a nice theory and all, but you do realize even the obituary itself indicates that Maynard's mom went by the name of "Judy". Referring to her as "Marie" would appear to be less than relevent.

At this point however, I'd be content to wait for the song itself to reveal it's nature for us as opposed to chasing down every possible angle. In other words, I'd rather not see somebody try to dig thru this woman's medical history (deceased or not) to either confirm or deny the suggestion made in this thread.

If the song is indeed referring in any way to Maynard's mom, I suspect the song itself as well as the lyrics will fill us in on all we need to know about the matter. But truthfully, some things don't need to be figured out all that badly, do they? Considering the high probability that this song has nothing to do with Maynard's mother whatsoever, I'd just hate to think we're so desperate and rushed to make sense of something which will soon be revealed on it's own, especially given the perhaps delicate nature of the subject.

Again, the theory's fine and kudos to you if it proves to be at all relevent. This just seems to me to be an area where people can quickly go from being an average fan to an obsessed fanatic, and I'd hate to see that happen for the sake of some rather inconsequencial knowledge.

rsh

03-15-2006, 05:27 AM

Good post.

ktrip

03-15-2006, 05:47 AM

... fan is short for fanatic?

whats wrong with being a fanatic?

you dont get abused for being an "obsessed fanatic" of your local football team, but you get raped being an "obsessed fanatic" of your favourite band?

besides... most tool fans are obsessed fanatics, because, fuck, tool are just that good.

lets go digging...

Hooker with a Third Eye

03-15-2006, 06:32 AM

2. 'Wings for Marie' could reference his mother Judith MARIE Keenan/Garrison... the songs 'Wings for Marie' and '10000 Days' are linked as being part 1 & 2 of a bigger musical piece...

garrison is my last name...insanity

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 07:04 AM

This theory is getting more and more valid by the minute

5th Eye

03-15-2006, 07:07 AM

Yes; I like this theory, especially since "Wings for Marie" is really the only track title I like a lot.

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 07:19 AM

Intension and Right in Two are pretty good, as well.

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 07:23 AM

it's all bullshit. i'm tellin ya.

Systolic

03-15-2006, 07:23 AM

thejesus

03-15-2006, 07:41 AM

It's a nice theory and all, but you do realize even the obituary itself indicates that Maynard's mom went by the name of "Judy". Referring to her as "Marie" would appear to be less than relevent.
.

Just to play Devil's advocate here, as I don't think the title will have anything to do with any of this...

But Maynard did use his son's middle name as one of the song titles as well

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 08:29 AM

Just to play Devil's advocate here, as I don't think the title will have anything to do with any of this...

But Maynard did use his son's middle name as one of the song titles as well

and who the fuck else would Marie be?

Maynard's written "jimmy"

and "Judith"

why do you think it would be so outlandish to write one for his dead mother?

(directed at HappyFunBall)

A Tad Bit Catatonic

03-15-2006, 09:01 AM

Wow this has turned into quite the thread - as a ToolNavy NOOB, I am proud to be part of it =P... Beats the hell out of the typical little "cartoon Simpsons wannabe guys" shitflinging fests that are so common here.

. You know, I think Maynard's lyrics are mostly Jungian in nature. If you don't know alot about Jung, you should go learn about him, because most of Tool's lyrics come straight out of that. And it is a really cool, and transcendental way of looking at people and life in general. The Shadow, The Anima Or Animus, The Self, The Collective. Of course he is just psychology, but personally I much prefer him to Freud, and apparently Maynard does too... I have read in an interview, or a few, where Maynard is always talking about using his music as a therapy. And I mean, how else could you create such brilliant art, anyway - it has to be very personal.

And sure it seems way ego centric if this is true, but as is always the case, the lyrics and music will be open to interpretation - he is SO damn good at that, all the double and even triple entendre. So I'd assume and expect there will be great big huge deep meaning in these 2 songs, and that even makes it all the more poetic if it is truly an ode to his mother.

I really am becoming enamored with the "Wings for Marie" concept, and now the 10000 days/age/story of one mans life/relating it to the collective concept, or whatever it is. That was the weirdest and most out of place thing before all of this, but I have a major hunch. Call it intuition. ;)... At least the Title will be written out in some mind blowing "Toolian" font; come on guys - they have brought us this far, I can't see them letting us down now.

By the way whoever cleaned up my mess, THANK YOU - that is way cool =)... I am afterall, just another "NOOB" even though I've been reading this forum since before most of the people here were born hehe =P

thejesus

03-15-2006, 11:27 AM

and who the fuck else would Marie be?

Maynard's written "jimmy"

and "Judith"

why do you think it would be so outlandish to write one for his dead mother?

(directed at HappyFunBall)

I don't know...

But I would be surprised if the idea behind the album title were limited to a personal experience of Maynard's...the themes for their records in the past have always embodied much larger ideas, not limited to a single band member, nor have they been personal experinces...

Guess we'll have to wait and see

Peon

03-15-2006, 11:29 AM

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 11:30 AM

H. is about Heroin. I don't care what anyone says.

TurdEye13

03-15-2006, 11:35 AM

I like the title "Viginti Tres", it just has that epic sounding title.

NoD

03-15-2006, 11:41 AM

The whole track list is really good, I'm just not sure about Jambi...wtf could it mean?

The Scottish Tool

03-15-2006, 11:49 AM

why not? Considering Maynard's middle name is James.... its possible....
not to be a dick or anything but i believe maynards middle name is Herbert . . .. on the next tool album we may see the song "a redbull for herbert."

Actually, MJK's REAL name is James Herbert Keenan. So, in a way you two are both correct. And yes, I believe that jimmy is about MJK's childhood.

A Tad Bit Catatonic

03-15-2006, 12:00 PM

H. is about Heroin. I don't care what anyone says.

I was reading the lyrics to it over and over lastnight. I'm pretty sure it is too, but I think it's written in Jungian terms. Alot of Aenima is Jung - even the title itself I think is a double entendre. Addiction directly correlates to Jung as well. The the person who in invented alcoholics anonomous, and hence the "12 step program" was sort of a disciple of Jung as well. And so we have, 13th step... I'm sure we can expect to see some more Jung in 10000 Days.

Actually this is from Wikipedia:

The progressive metal band, Tool, have incorporated ideas from Jung's work into their albums, especially Ænima. Songs such as "Forty Six & 2" and "Ænema" (the title of this song and the title of the album both being derived from Jung's anima) are particularly fraught with references. Additionally, The Police made references to Carl Jung in their album Synchronicity.

I suppose alot of you guys already knew this though =)

And before anyone flames me for using Wikipedia... well I'll save that for when you do hehe.

A Tad Bit Catatonic

03-15-2006, 12:04 PM

The whole track list is really good, I'm just not sure about Jambi...wtf could it mean?.

Wiki again:

Jambi is a province of Indonesia located on the east coast of central Sumatra, which contains a city also named Jambi, located at 1°35′S 103°37′E.

The population of the province is 2,400,940 (2000 census).

[edit]
History
Before what is now Indonesia was colonized by the Dutch East India Company, Jambi was the site of a well-established, powerful Srivijayan kingdom that engaged in trade throughout the Strait of Malacca and beyond. It succeeded Palembang to the south, which was a frequent military and economic rival, as the later capital of the ancient kingdom. The move to Jambi was partly induced by the historic 1025 raid by pirates from the Chola region of southern India that destroyed much of Palembang.

In the early decades of the Dutch presence in the region, when the future colonizers were just one of several groups of traders competing with Brits, Chinese, Arabs, and Malays, the Jambi sultanate profitably traded pepper with the Dutch. This relationship declined by about 1770, and the sultanate had little contact with the Dutch for about sixty years.

In 1833, minor conflicts with the Dutch, who were well established in Palembang, meant the Dutch increasingly felt the need to control the actions of Jambi. They coerced Sultan Facharudin to agree to greater Dutch presence in the region and control over trade, although the sultanate remained nominally independent. In 1858 the Dutch, apparently concerned over the risk of competition for control from other foreign powers, invaded Jambi with a force from Batavia. They met little resistance, and Sultan Taha fled to the upriver, inland regions of Jambi. The Dutch installed a puppet ruler, Nazarudin, in the lower region, which included the capital city. For the next forty years Taha maintained the upriver kingdom, and slowly reextended his influence over the lower regions through political agreements and marriage connections. In 1904, however, the Dutch were stronger and, as a part of a larger campaign to consolidate control over the entire archipelago, soldiers finally managed to capture and kill Taha, and in 1906, the entire area was brought under direct colonial management.

paraflux

03-15-2006, 12:06 PM

H. is about Heroin. I don't care what anyone says.

That's the progressive attitude I like to see!*

Just like, close yourself off to any other larger meanings that it would ever have for you. Doesnt make much sense to me but I suppose it does for you at the moment.

thejesus

03-15-2006, 12:10 PM

Pushit and H. dude.

you're talking about individual songs..I'm talking about album themes...

the albums are always named after a song on the record, and the underlying idea for said song is usually the main message or theme the band wishes to convey to listeners for that particular album

it would just be a break from the norm for the record to be named something that has to do with a personal experience limited to a single band member

like I said, their album names usually embodie something much larger

meatstick

03-15-2006, 12:56 PM

Do you think the guys in Tool are laughing at you?

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 01:05 PM

That's the progressive attitude I like to see!*

Just like, close yourself off to any other larger meanings that it would ever have for you. Doesnt make much sense to me but I suppose it does for you at the moment.
dude. i do that with every other fucking song. and my relationship with Heroin is exactly that fucking song. do you have any idea how beautiful and how disgusting Heroin is? i feel i have a relationship with it, i treat it as an enigma, an entity of its own, something i need to tend to. do you have any idea? i don't think you do. because then you wouldn't be questioning my interpretation being meaningful enough as for me to fully appreciate the song.

god fucking damnit i'm tired. i've been awake for like 50 hours.

by the way, i haven't done Heroin in about a month, so don't anyone get the idea of calling me an addict, or even worse... dependent.

thejesus

03-15-2006, 01:08 PM

dude. i do that with every other fucking song. and my relationship with Heroin is exactly that fucking song. do you have any idea how beautiful and how disgusting Heroin is? i feel i have a relationship with it

Oh yeah? How's that relationship working out for you?

Do you by chance live in a hippie village full of people who just sit around and do nothing all day long?

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 01:12 PM

are you, by chance, extremely ignorant to my lifestyle and situation?

meatstick

03-15-2006, 01:16 PM

Herion is rough.
My grandma has been on it for years. Hell of a good cook though.

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 01:19 PM

I don't know...

But I would be surprised if the idea behind the album title were limited to a personal experience of Maynard's...the themes for their records in the past have always embodied much larger ideas, not limited to a single band member, nor have they been personal experinces...

Guess we'll have to wait and see

I definately think that there's more to the 10000 days concept than just Maynard and his mom.

but there is now little doubt in my mind that it at least was an inspiration to the theme of the album/is one of the interpretations/stems from that experience.

I mean, Aenema is about flushing away LA, but the album's about much more than that...

paraflux

03-15-2006, 01:29 PM

dude. i do that with every other fucking song. and my relationship with Heroin is exactly that fucking song. do you have any idea how beautiful and how disgusting Heroin is? i feel i have a relationship with it, i treat it as an enigma, an entity of its own, something i need to tend to. do you have any idea? i don't think you do. because then you wouldn't be questioning my interpretation being meaningful enough as for me to fully appreciate the song.

god fucking damnit i'm tired. i've been awake for like 50 hours.

by the way, i haven't done Heroin in about a month, so don't anyone get the idea of calling me an addict, or even worse... dependent.
I'm not going to label you as anything. What I would say is that you should have added "to me" in your post. To you, H. will always be about heroin. You just proved that by making us consider your experiences. No, I dont have any idea, and I dont care to. And nowhere did I question your ability to appreciate this song. I simply questioned the fact that you closed yourself off, it seemed, forever, to any other possible meaning to this song. That's all.

thejesus

03-15-2006, 01:46 PM

are you, by chance, extremely ignorant to my lifestyle and situation?

Yes, I am.

That's why I asked if you live in a hippie village full of people who sit around and do nothing but get stoned all day.

If I already knew the answer, I wouldn't have had to ask.

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 02:01 PM

I'm not going to label you as anything. What I would say is that you should have added "to me" in your post. To you, H. will always be about heroin. You just proved that by making us consider your experiences. No, I dont have any idea, and I dont care to. And nowhere did I question your ability to appreciate this song. I simply questioned the fact that you closed yourself off, it seemed, forever, to any other possible meaning to this song. That's all.
Oh. I feel like an ass. Thanks for explaining.

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 02:01 PM

Yes, I am.

That's why I asked if you live in a hippie village full of people who sit around and do nothing but get stoned all day.

If I already knew the answer, I wouldn't have had to ask.
lol. and the answer is no.

Happyfunball

03-15-2006, 03:28 PM

and who the fuck else would Marie be?

Maynard's written "jimmy"

and "Judith"

why do you think it would be so outlandish to write one for his dead mother?

(directed at HappyFunBall)

Where to start...

Let's see. I guess Marie could at this particular moment be any person on the planet (or history for that matter) that in one form or another carries that name, including but absolutely not limited to his mother. But it's not like somebody just found a needle in a haystack here. More like a needle within a rather huge stack of needles. How many millions of Marie's do we have left in the world to still eliminate? How many of you here can't find at least one Marie in your very own extended family? It's just not all that exclusive of a link, that's all I'm saying.

As far as lyrics go, of course many of Maynard's words reflect things that are/were directly related to his personal life. What writer aside from perhaps a news reporter doesn't allow their personal life to seep into their artistic creations? So yes, he wrote "jimmy" which could easily be related (but again, not exclusively limited) to his childhood. And indeed, he wrote "Judith" which refers -- still somewhat vaguely -- to his mother and/or her faith. And the list can only grow from there.

I would submit however, that no where has Maynard ever writen an exclusively biographical song lyric; ie, one that cannot conform to additional interpretations. In fact, it's this same willingness and determination to leave things at a vaguely familiar level which allows us all to make the songs our own in the first place.

insaner

03-15-2006, 03:42 PM

I would submit however, that no where has Maynard ever writen an exclusively biographical song lyric; ie, one that cannot conform to additional interpretations.

i would submit that by keeping his private life actually somewhat private, theres no way to truly know this.

i do agree with the vagueness part though, as he has said it many times in interviews, and other bands also use this lyrical method.

Ancalagon

03-15-2006, 03:49 PM

I think this theory as a whole has a lot of credence, and those who dismiss it with various statements about vagueness and "you don't really know anything" and "stop being a fanatic" do understand Tool but fail to notice that occasionally lyrics might be autobiographical. I think in this case the theory fits together very neatly and well.

dekard49

03-15-2006, 04:20 PM

I was considering the significance of the 2-part Marie song, when it occured to me that if you count it as one song, then "Viginti Tres" will be the 23rd track since lateralus was released.

Did anyone discover if there was any significance behind the "MACHNES/STATIC" remark attached to "Triad" on the back of Lateralus?

Renholder

03-15-2006, 05:06 PM

I just have a hard time understanding why some people need to put everything in a tight little neat package that fits their imaginarry masterplan of what tool represents. Connecting point A-B to W is certainly doable but pointless.I get the feeling some of you are trying too hard to find patterns and trying to fit the information in complexe It seems likeAll these theories, although expressed using great rethoric, are pretty baseless. Fact is, we don't don't know whether these tracknames are eaccurate or even true. All we can do now is speculate on these little scraps of information and conjure up tons of interesting ,yet unprovable theories...Well we will be able to falsify them if the band ever reveals the true meanings to the titles, something history doesn't support.

Some of you are actually coming up with great ideas but the prospect of someone taking these things as an absolute and being dissapointed when they hear the song is almost an invevitability. The posters of these threads may or may not have had these intension (sic) but the end result is what it is. I wouldn't have any problems with people stating that these things they are figuring out are just mere happy and accidental coincidences. We simply don't know yet what made the band choose the titles and I think the mystery in itself is a great thing. We tamper and strip wonder away from this mystery?

Open endedness of tool is one of the most beautiful aspect of the band.
Attempting to answer questions which shouldn't even be asked is a silly.

Sorry for the rant kids.

ktrip

03-15-2006, 05:09 PM

they did say this was their blues album.... isnt blues usually about expressing personal pain through music?....

just a thought...

Animus X torsi

03-15-2006, 05:10 PM

adam said it would be very personal as well, so the personal pain/ blues thing fits

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 05:46 PM

Where to start...

Let's see. I guess Marie could at this particular moment be any person on the planet (or history for that matter) that in one form or another carries that name, including but absolutely not limited to his mother. But it's not like somebody just found a needle in a haystack here. More like a needle within a rather huge stack of needles. How many millions of Marie's do we have left in the world to still eliminate? How many of you here can't find at least one Marie in your very own extended family? It's just not all that exclusive of a link, that's all I'm saying.

As far as lyrics go, of course many of Maynard's words reflect things that are/were directly related to his personal life. What writer aside from perhaps a news reporter doesn't allow their personal life to seep into their artistic creations? So yes, he wrote "jimmy" which could easily be related (but again, not exclusively limited) to his childhood. And indeed, he wrote "Judith" which refers -- still somewhat vaguely -- to his mother and/or her faith. And the list can only grow from there.

I would submit however, that no where has Maynard ever writen an exclusively biographical song lyric; ie, one that cannot conform to additional interpretations. In fact, it's this same willingness and determination to leave things at a vaguely familiar level which allows us all to make the songs our own in the first place.
I don't think you get it.

the song has a greater than 99% chance of being about his mother.

He certainly won't say "when I was 11 my mom had an aneurism and to this day i've been sad and 10000 days later she died LOL"

but if you don't expect a song called "wings for marie" with lyrics by maynard to be related in some way to his mother marie, then you are retarded.

Mr.Rubberburner

03-15-2006, 05:50 PM

Wings for MArie will be the Patient and H of 10000 days. Track 3 baby

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 05:55 PM

Wings for MArie will be the Patient and H of 10000 days. Track 3 baby

I'm thinkin H./The Patient meets Parabol.

aka, mellow kickassness

Opunaela10

03-15-2006, 07:35 PM

"Wings for Marie"

My name is Marie ....and I need wings!

ClerickMantra

03-15-2006, 07:51 PM

you do know hendrix died at 27, I do not know what date exacly.

dracomordag

03-15-2006, 08:00 PM

you do know hendrix died at 27, I do not know what date exacly.

OMG AND TEH TOOL ALBUM IS 10000 DAYZ LOL

Happyfunball

03-15-2006, 08:06 PM

I don't think you get it.

the song has a greater than 99% chance of being about his mother.

He certainly won't say "when I was 11 my mom had an aneurism and to this day i've been sad and 10000 days later she died LOL"

but if you don't expect a song called "wings for marie" with lyrics by maynard to be related in some way to his mother marie, then you are retarded.

His mother was not Marie. His mother was Judy. There is absolutely no evidence that supports the notion she was ever referred to as Marie by anybody, not the least of which being Maynard. Stop assuming her middle name and first name are so easily interchangable because the truth is the only reason anyone would even bother to think that is for the sake of this very theory.

I don't automatically assume "Wings for Marie" is about his mom for the simple fact that I don't automatically assume Maynard knows absolutely nobody else of importance and/or relevance who might also have the name Marie writen somewhere on their birth certificate. That, my friend, would be retarded.

I "get it". You and a few others have an insatiable need to make sense of an extremely small collection of words which cannot possibly be proven to be accurate until more information is afforded to us. Information, incidentally, which will come with or without all the random holes being dug in the desert. And on the first notion that any seemingly relevant connection is made, the lights are dimmed and all sense of rational observation are tossed out the window. I definitely "get it". You've shut off your brain and put masking tape over your voice of reason.

Everything here adds up to a possibility. That's the bottom line. It's not proof. It's not definitive. It's merely possible. But if you hold that up to be sacred truth, you're the one who's not getting it. At least allow for the very real possiblity that this has nothing to do with anything that's been suggested by anyone up to this point.

Fulcanelli

03-15-2006, 08:20 PM

I doubt the band would name the record after an experience that is unique to Maynard...

The themes of the records aren't usually very personal either

MJK did say that he wrote about personal things.

idontmind462

03-15-2006, 09:36 PM

you do know hendrix died at 27, I do not know what date exacly.
So did a lot of other extremely talented musicians, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Kurt Cobain... just to name a few.

carceral

03-15-2006, 09:44 PM

This whole thread sounds like a Jeff Goldblum movie.

idontmind462

03-16-2006, 12:02 AM

Jeff rocks.

Octopod

03-16-2006, 02:04 AM

His mother was not Marie. His mother was Judy.

But if Mr. Keenan already wrote "Judith" the song, and if that is about his mother, then wouldn't it be a bit redundant to title another song that is concerned with her (on one level or another) "Wings for Judy" or "... Judith"? I see his use of her middle name as being just as personal and relevant as his use of "Judith", myself.

I like this interpretation a lot. Of course correlation doesn't necessarily = causation, and I do think all the songs have various meanings and interpretations, but I think they also have a very specific meaning to Mr. Keenan that he hasn't really obscured too secretively. He titled a song "jimmy" after all. I think the personal nature of his lyrics are becoming more obvious and complex by the album, and it does makes sense that Mrs. Garrison's recent death would have some bearing on the lyricist of this particular band...

Froudie

03-16-2006, 04:50 AM

I definately think that there's more to the 10000 days concept than just Maynard and his mom.

but there is now little doubt in my mind that it at least was an inspiration to the theme of the album/is one of the interpretations/stems from that experience.

I mean, Aenema is about flushing away LA, but the album's about much more than that...

I remember reading an article where MJK stated that as an artist he was frustrated that no one seemed to be heeding his warnings and messages and we were still basically ignorant retards... that this album would be about this frustration... something about beating his head against a wall... I don't have a link unfortunately, but it was in the last 2 weeks... anyone help me with this link?

Now, could his frustration at his mother's continued faith in religion despite his warnings and her condition (aneurysm) be the basic idea behind the 10000 days song...

subsequently this track also best represents the theme of the actual album (frustration, ignorance), thus it was made the title track... much the same way that Aenema is the title track to Aenima as mentioned above...

Froudie

03-16-2006, 04:54 AM

I've always thought (and still do) that 'Jimmy's lyrics is a kind of inner conversation between MJK as a child and MJK as a grown up man (Rather than MJK and his mother). I.e. grown up MJK talking to Jimmy (MJK as a child) after finally "finding" him - inside himself...

just my 2 cents...

Ps. Anyway, really good theory(s) Froudie...

I like that interpretation as well....

By using the interpretation that 'jimmy' is about Maynard being strong (holding his light) and a rock (leading her thorugh each step by step by inch to recovery) for his mother in her time of need fits the 10000 days, Wings for Marie idea better...

Obviously No interpretation is correct/incorrect...

TurdEye13

03-16-2006, 08:37 AM

I wonder what track this one is? Possibly 10,000 Days.

"the other song still has no title, it's a rhythmically complex 10 minutes long song and Danny had earlier described it as being his favorite Tool composition to date"

Happyfunball

03-16-2006, 02:34 PM

But if Mr. Keenan already wrote "Judith" the song, and if that is about his mother, then wouldn't it be a bit redundant to title another song that is concerned with her...

I cut your quote off there because it makes the same argument but in a different way. It would indeed be redundant to name the song "Wings for Judy/Judith" if it's about his mom. It would be equally redundant to name it "Wings for Marie" if it's about his mom. It would still be about his mom and still be redundant because he's already done a song about her. I understand what you're saying of course, I just don't agree that it would really be all that less redundant. If "Marie" is "Judith", it's still every bit as redundant.

Notice how many times I used the word redundant? I are star.

Octopod

03-16-2006, 02:53 PM

It would be equally redundant to name it "Wings for Marie" if it's about his mom. It would still be about his mom and still be redundant because he's already done a song about her.

He did a song about her before she died, yes. But nothing since. Wouldn't you agree that someone's death might mark an appropriate time to revisit and re-evaluate?

dracomordag

03-16-2006, 03:30 PM

I cut your quote off there because it makes the same argument but in a different way. It would indeed be redundant to name the song "Wings for Judy/Judith" if it's about his mom. It would be equally redundant to name it "Wings for Marie" if it's about his mom. It would still be about his mom and still be redundant because he's already done a song about her. I understand what you're saying of course, I just don't agree that it would really be all that less redundant. If "Marie" is "Judith", it's still every bit as redundant.

Notice how many times I used the word redundant? I are star.

and they've made only one song about anal sex, awakening to higher conciousnesses, flooding, etc....

Happyfunball

03-16-2006, 07:11 PM

He did a song about her before she died, yes. But nothing since. Wouldn't you agree that someone's death might mark an appropriate time to revisit and re-evaluate?

Of course it might be. But again, it doesn't matter. The point is, it doesn't equate to truth and/or fact. It's just a possibility, and to that effect how strong a possibility it might be is completely speculative.

"Wings for Marie" does not equal Judith Marie Garrison simply because her middle name is the same as the name in this title. I'm certain you understand how that is not proof but rather just a possibility, which is all I've been saying the entire time.

The same applies to the notion of 10,000 days equalling 27 years. In reality it doesn't, to the tune of well over 100 days or several months (whichever you prefer to go by). And particularly within the confines of suggesting a possible life-altering moment in a person's history, one can't help but think such a number aught to be far more accurate than merely in the ballbark. So it begs the question just how accurate that number is because it would appear to be fairly important if it's intension is to represent something very meaningful on a personal level.

I'd actually be quite dissappointed in Maynard if this song was to be about his mom yet 10,000 days was not actually a relevant figure. It would mean then that he was altering the truth for the sake of something that perhaps just sounds better when writen or sang. That would not be much of a tribute and/or homage. In fact, it'd be a pretty crappy adjustment then and relegate the title to not only being innaccurate but also fairly dis-serving towards it's suggested intent.

The point being, for 10,000 days to hold any true meaning, it would need to be extremely accurate. Just saying "well 27 years is roughly 10,000 days" would not at all be good enough. So in the context of this theory presented here, it very much begs the question of just how accurate 10,000 days is in regards to his mother's aneurysm and subsequent death. Because if it's off by several months or even several days then it's not a very fitting time frame.

And now somebody somewhere (if they're not already) is going to go searching for Judith's medical history to try and verify when she had her aneurysm which, in my opinion, is going overboard for the sake of proving (or disproving) a potential theory. It's information that's truly not needed because the truth will be revealed soon enough in it's own right.

Even so, it won't mean I'm wrong for being reluctant to believe based upon the information we have right now. But like I've tried to convey several times, I'm not out to prove this theory wrong in the first place. I just feel it lacks enough information currently to be treated as though it's proven fact.

If it's accurate however, I will be the first to congradulate the OP for actually digging in a hole that led to buried treasure. And for those who believed all along, I will still feel you did so prematurely. But because you will have been proven right I suppose you will be free to ridicule me in whatever way you choose.

ktrip

03-16-2006, 07:13 PM

funball, you are a little foolish...

you said that maynard wouldnt use a middle name to refere to someone for a song? what about brena? or h? [i pesonally think its aobut his son, devo h. keenan. ok, ok heroin is great too...] you redundantly said it would be redundant for him to use the same subject matter twice? he uses the same subject matter all the time, even if as an extended metaphor. your arguements against froudie are fantastic, they prove him more and more right every time you post.

thank you froudie, even if you are wrong, its good to see someones thinking.

keep up the good work.

dracomordag

03-16-2006, 07:17 PM

Of course it might be. But again, it doesn't matter. The point is, it doesn't equate to truth and/or fact. It's just a possibility, and to that effect how strong a possibility it might be is completely speculative.

"Wings for Marie" does not equal Judith Marie Garrison simply because her middle name is the same as the name in this title. I'm certain you understand how that is not proof but rather just a possibility, which is all I've been saying the entire time.

The same applies to the notion of 10,000 days equalling 27 years. In reality it doesn't, to the tune of well over 100 days or several months (whichever you prefer to go by). And particularly within the confines of suggesting a possible life-altering moment in a person's history, one can't help but think such a number aught to be far more accurate than merely in the ballbark. So it begs the question just how accurate that number is because it would appear to be fairly important if it's intension is to represent something very meaningful on a personal level.

I'd actually be quite dissappointed in Maynard if this song was to be about his mom yet 10,000 days was not actually a relevant figure. It would mean then that he was altering the truth for the sake of something that perhaps just sounds better when writen or sang. That would not be much of a tribute and/or homage. In fact, it'd be a pretty crappy adjustment then and relegate the title to not only being innaccurate but also fairly dis-serving towards it's suggested intent.

The point being, for 10,000 days to hold any true meaning, it would need to be extremely accurate. Just saying "well 27 years is roughly 10,000 days" would not at all be good enough. So in the context of this theory presented here, it very much begs the question of just how accurate 10,000 days is in regards to his mother's aneurysm and subsequent death. Because if it's off by several months or even several days then it's not a very fitting time frame.

And now somebody somewhere (if they're not already) is going to go searching for Judith's medical history to try and verify when she had her aneurysm which, in my opinion, is going overboard for the sake of proving (or disproving) a potential theory. It's information that's truly not needed because the truth will be revealed soon enough in it's own right.

Even so, it won't mean I'm wrong for being reluctant to believe based upon the information we have right now. But like I've tried to convey several times, I'm not out to prove this theory wrong in the first place. I just feel it lacks enough information currently to be treated as though it's proven fact.

If it's accurate however, I will be the first to congradulate the OP for actually digging in a hole that led to buried treasure. And for those who believed all along, I will still feel you did so prematurely. But because you will have been proven right I suppose you will be free to ridicule me in whatever way you choose.

so they should've named the album 9861.75 days?

jeesus

ktrip

03-16-2006, 07:21 PM

lol yeah exactly....

your arguements are getting worse funball

electribe1

03-16-2006, 10:59 PM

I tried doing some math....

10000 days - 27.4 years

jimmy - 11

MJK D.O.B. - 17 april, 1964

Judith MARIE Keenan passed away - June 18th, 2003

Maynards age at this time - 39

Now add 10000 days to Jimmy's 11 and you get 38.4 years

10000 days may be the approximate amount of time from something that happened at jimmy's eleven to his mother's passing???

Count 10000 days backwards from June 18th 2003 and you get to about Jan 30th 1976 when MJK would have been 11 years old, about to turn 12 on April 17th that year...

Dude I COULDNT POSSIBLY agree with you more than i do! you are certainly on to something and you have just redefined what i thought jimmy was about. GOOD POST!

electribe1

03-16-2006, 11:01 PM

you're talking about individual songs..I'm talking about album themes...

the albums are always named after a song on the record, and the underlying idea for said song is usually the main message or theme the band wishes to convey to listeners for that particular album

it would just be a break from the norm for the record to be named something that has to do with a personal experience limited to a single band member

like I said, their album names usually embodie something much larger

Of course the albums ARE named about the experiences on one person and one person only. MAYNARD...Maynard writes all the lyrics...look at opiate...the album is called opiate after the song opiate that maynard wrote

undertow..same story
aenima...yet again
laturalus...yup...maynard

you are wrong dude

Octopod

03-16-2006, 11:28 PM

Of course it might be. But again, it doesn't matter. The point is, it doesn't equate to truth and/or fact.

I appreciate (to a point) your reluctance, but no one ever said we were dealing with truth or fact. Just possibilities based on track titles. Where in the world are Froudie's (or anyone's) conclusions that any of this is definitive?

The same applies to the notion of 10,000 days equalling 27 years. In reality it doesn't, to the tune of well over 100 days or several months (whichever you prefer to go by).

So now three months is "several"? Once you reach or aproach the 10,000 day barrier I think it's perfectly fine to refer to that time period in those terms if you like because 10,000 is a considerable milestone for just about anything that isn't microscopic or used for Japanese currency. It gives it a different perspective and emphasis, and I don't think it really matters how accurate you are when dealing with such a period of time, so I must disagree with you there. One hundred days matter more in a year than they do in twenty seven.

I'd actually be quite dissappointed in Maynard if this song was to be about his mom yet 10,000 days was not actually a relevant figure. It would mean then that he was altering the truth for the sake of something that perhaps just sounds better when writen or sang.

I wouldn't be disappointed in the least. Art takes those liberties to give you the "essence" of someone's perspectives and experiences in a limited space, be it a canvas, a 300-page text, a two hour film, a block of marble, an 80 minute compact disc, or what have you. "Accuracy" as it were goes out the window in these endeavors because Picasso's Guernica can't actually make you feel the accuracies of what it was to endure the Spanish civil war. It can only give you a limited... albeit resonant... vision. Same goes for films that are "based" on actual events. That "10,000 Days" as a title is close enough an approximation to the notions of Mrs. Garrison's post-aneurysm affliction, Mr. Keenan's parallel loss of a relatable maternal figure, the time it took to translate the Rosetta Stone, and the Saturnal solar orbit is brilliant enough and resonant enough for me as a listener to grant some lattitude to the lyricist with regards to accuracy should these references play out once we have access to the music and the lyrics. Tool are not NASA, after all.

Even so, it won't mean I'm wrong for being reluctant to believe based upon the information we have right now. But like I've tried to convey several times, I'm not out to prove this theory wrong in the first place.

Well... now you're just playing innocent. Not cool, friend. Don't act like anyone ever claimed that this was anything but a possibility to begin with based on limited information. It's obvious who's jumping the gun and coming to conclusions on this thread.

Happyfunball

03-17-2006, 05:24 AM

Don't act like anyone ever claimed that this was anything but a possibility to begin with based on limited information.

but if you don't expect a song called "wings for marie" with lyrics by maynard to be related in some way to his mother marie, then you are retarded.

Dracomordag feels this is all just a possibility?

Octopod, we're both on the same page in a few ways so I'm surprised you're wanting to debate me so heavily here. We obviously disagree on symantics but I get the impression overall that you're okay with disagreeing just as I am because in the end it's just a discussion.

Dracomordag seems less than okay with disagreeing however. And honestly, the only thing I'm even disagreeing with Draco about is the idea that this is somehow a proven theory. Is your opinion not also that this is still only a possibility? Maybe we don't see eye to eye on that. I was thinking we did.

Personally, I didn't adjust any relevant dates or time frames regarding my Mom's sickness and eventual death to fit anything I wrote regarding her. It doesn't seem to me that Maynard would either within this kind of a setting. Perhaps he would. The accuracy mattered for me, that's about all I can say in that regard I guess.

I do agree that writers take all sorts of liberties when creating a piece, and I think that's fine when you're dealing with a mostly fictional work. We've been discussing this in terms of not being a fictional work but rather a very personal non-fiction work so in that regard it just wouldn't strike me as something Maynard would be willing to compromise on. But again, that's simply an area where you and I don't agree.

For what it's worth, 10,000 days is 27 years and 138 days (give or take a leap day). I didn't realize you were going to debate the notion of "well over 100 days" and what that might mean. But it's the equivelant of 4 and a half months and yes, I would call that several. You might not though and that's fine.

Happyfunball

03-17-2006, 05:48 AM

so they should've named the album 9861.75 days?

jeesus

Another one-line quip. :(

No, it would seem more logical to me that they'd simply not name it anything "days" at all then and go with something that more accurately fit whatever they wish to discuss. That as opposed to rounding the numbers up or down so they could call it 10,000 Days when it really didn't apply.

The further away the numbers move from being accurate, the less likely I'd say it'd be that Maynard would still try to make such a numerical reference. I will fully conceed there's a certain kind of lee-way to be had there. But yes, 9861.75 actually would seem to be too far off to me to make for a good connection. If it were that far off, I'd think they'd simply go for a different title altogether then.

varg

03-17-2006, 08:04 AM

I tried doing some math....

10000 days - 27.4 years

jimmy - 11

MJK D.O.B. - 17 april, 1964

Judith MARIE Keenan passed away - June 18th, 2003

Maynards age at this time - 39

Now add 10000 days to Jimmy's 11 and you get 38.4 years

10000 days may be the approximate amount of time from something that happened at jimmy's eleven to his mother's passing???

Count 10000 days backwards from June 18th 2003 and you get to about Jan 30th 1976 when MJK would have been 11 years old, about to turn 12 on April 17th that year...

TOOL Line-up:
Vocals: Maynard
Drums: Maynard
Guitar: Maynard
Bass: Maynard

OR?

thejesus

03-17-2006, 08:11 AM

MJK did say that he wrote about personal things.

For the third time now....

You're talking about individual songs...I'm talking about album names...

Yes, MJK writes about personal things...but they don't name their albums 'Jimmy' or 'H' or 'Prison Sex'...the album names are always songs on the record that embodie much larger ideas....not those limited to the personal experiences of a single band member..

gira

03-17-2006, 09:30 AM

who cares if 10000 days isnt somehow mistically linked to previous work or deep down and personal information about maynard. Is it not possible to make progression by focussing on something else? That could be a stronger form of progression than any other.... change is a great means to progress...
if we get all spiritual and stuff, wasnt jesus like approximately 30 years old, thefore maybe with all their reference into stuff like how things might have come about in all kinds of different religions, that they are playing on some kind of theory of the earth or a particular being or matter maturing at 10000 days - or it could relate to something totally different...
whatever it is, im sure im going to like it, i just have this thing where i know im not going to discard tool, no matter how frustrated i get - my frustrations are a direct reflection of my reactivity and i think if anything, tool would want everyone to be in as proactive a state as possible and continue siezing their opportunity....
peace,
d.

dracomordag

03-17-2006, 12:29 PM

Dracomordag feels this is all just a possibility?

Octopod, we're both on the same page in a few ways so I'm surprised you're wanting to debate me so heavily here. We obviously disagree on symantics but I get the impression overall that you're okay with disagreeing just as I am because in the end it's just a discussion.

Dracomordag seems less than okay with disagreeing however. And honestly, the only thing I'm even disagreeing with Draco about is the idea that this is somehow a proven theory. Is your opinion not also that this is still only a possibility? Maybe we don't see eye to eye on that. I was thinking we did.

Personally, I didn't adjust any relevant dates or time frames regarding my Mom's sickness and eventual death to fit anything I wrote regarding her. It doesn't seem to me that Maynard would either within this kind of a setting. Perhaps he would. The accuracy mattered for me, that's about all I can say in that regard I guess.

I do agree that writers take all sorts of liberties when creating a piece, and I think that's fine when you're dealing with a mostly fictional work. We've been discussing this in terms of not being a fictional work but rather a very personal non-fiction work so in that regard it just wouldn't strike me as something Maynard would be willing to compromise on. But again, that's simply an area where you and I don't agree.

For what it's worth, 10,000 days is 27 years and 138 days (give or take a leap day). I didn't realize you were going to debate the notion of "well over 100 days" and what that might mean. But it's the equivelant of 4 and a half months and yes, I would call that several. You might not though and that's fine.

no, i understand that it's just a possibility. see my first few posts in this thread...

the problem is that this is pretty likely what the song will be about, and you acted like it's some great problem.

dracomordag

03-17-2006, 12:31 PM

Another one-line quip. :(

No, it would seem more logical to me that they'd simply not name it anything "days" at all then and go with something that more accurately fit whatever they wish to discuss. That as opposed to rounding the numbers up or down so they could call it 10,000 Days when it really didn't apply.

The further away the numbers move from being accurate, the less likely I'd say it'd be that Maynard would still try to make such a numerical reference. I will fully conceed there's a certain kind of lee-way to be had there. But yes, 9861.75 actually would seem to be too far off to me to make for a good connection. If it were that far off, I'd think they'd simply go for a different title altogether then.

Maybe the band felt pretty strongly that this length of time, both by its personal meaning to Maynard, and the sense of a longass time that it conveys (bringing up the point of statics/changes, cyclical nature of history, etc. accurately conveyed what they were trying to say on this record.

My argument is not really for the title 10000 days, anyway.

my argument is all about the name "wings for marie". seriously: that's maynard's mom. I'm 99% sure.

Happyfunball

03-17-2006, 03:16 PM

Fair enough. I would say then that I'm simply not 99% sure and would definitely like to keep myself more open than what that remaining 1% would allow me to be. That's just too closed off for me personally.

zenkinet

03-17-2006, 03:19 PM

Maybe the band felt pretty strongly that this length of time, both by its personal meaning to Maynard, and the sense of a longass time that it conveys (bringing up the point of statics/changes, cyclical nature of history, etc. accurately conveyed what they were trying to say on this record.

My argument is not really for the title 10000 days, anyway.

my argument is all about the name "wings for marie". seriously: that's maynard's mom. I'm 99% sure.
To tell you the truth (in my opinion) "Wings for Marie" looks out of place compared to the other the tracknames, however I will need to see its place when I have the album in my hand.
In Tool I Trust.

gira

03-17-2006, 03:58 PM

when i heard these guys were starting to put together another album, i sent an email basically asking them to consider being as dynamic as possible - i.e. have maynard snap in and out of his angry and soothing states, have a journey on the album which takes you to completely different places while still sticking to their guns...
now, i know so many other people would have sent stuff to them aswell and maybe they didnt even read my email.
if there is stuff that looks out of place, my excitment is building stronger as maybe they themselves were coming to a point where they thought they needed to vary things.... tool tends to travel to the right places where people can relate to the most, and i think, i would like them to be able to relate to the absolutely chaotic state that our world is experiencing, hopeing that that will hit me in the face and i think, i really have to get off the internet and do some of these things ive dreamed of.... thats probably because im in a very reactive state when i listen to music - i know im going to have to start being proactive and do these things if i want to live my life to the fullest, and i cant rely on tool or anyone else for that matter, but this is it... things stick out of place.... thats life.... tool relate well to life... and anything they deliver is going to be awesome!
believe
d.

Loveboat Captain

03-17-2006, 04:14 PM

No one is closer to a man than their mother. Why wouldn't he write more than one song about her?

nibiru

03-17-2006, 04:51 PM

I just read through this entire thread, and since I couldn't find anyone mentioning numerology when talking about Jimmy, well, here it is:

Eleven is a higher octave of the number two and is considered to be a master number (the second master number being 22). 11 is considered the path of spiritual awareness and knowledge beyond the grasp of others. It carries psychic vibrations and has an equal balance of masculine and feminine properties. It is also related to open-mindedness, intuition, idealism, and visions. Because eleven contains many gifts such as psychic awareness and a keen sense of sensitivity, it also has negative effects such as treachery and betrayal from secret enemies.

thejesus

03-17-2006, 04:54 PM

champion

03-17-2006, 04:54 PM

I agree... it's definitely a new angle on the subject. My eyes have certainly glazed over far too much to read through most people's posts tonight.

I really wish the retards that occupy Toolnavy would think twice before posting. It would save us all the urge to shoot them in the face. This guy obviously put some thought into his post... yes, more thought than it takes to say "bin" or "die of cancer" or "lol you suck".

Yes, and it makes more sense than the cycle of saturn, which takes roughly 29 years. Douchebags.

Edit: Great, thanks a lot.. now I have the hiccups!!

Bin, die of cancer.

nibiru

03-17-2006, 04:58 PM

and?

we do a little dance?

dracomordag

03-17-2006, 05:05 PM

Bin, die of cancer.

you forgot the "lol, you suck"

:(

Froudie

03-17-2006, 05:20 PM

Just for the sake of arguement...

The '100 years war' actually lasted 116 years (1336-1352) yet those extra 16 years are forgotten because the '116 years war' doesn't have the same ring to it... of course it doesn't matter... It's ONLY 16 years!!!

Similar to 10000 days and 9855 days (or whatever it is)... It's harder to digest that way and doesn't sound as good...

Finally...I don't remember stating any of this as being fact... merely a possibility and much more likely than most of the bullshit that is filling these forums at the moment as there is actually some evidence to support the idea... I only posted this information to start some discussion rather than saying 'this is it, I've figured it out... blah blah blah'... I still have doubts that any of this is true and will not be surprised if between now and May 2nd this idea is proven wrong or the track titles are changed or when we actually get to hear the album or read some lyrics it suggests some other meaning (that probably no one had thought of) to the new album and tracks contained within...

Oakshield

03-17-2006, 05:52 PM

I love macaroni (but my lays naturel chips are to salty)

Doest this help ?

idontmind462

03-17-2006, 10:32 PM

Mr.Rubberburner

03-17-2006, 10:34 PM

this thread still exists?

idontmind462

03-17-2006, 10:39 PM

No. It's just your brain flinching bits of electronic impulses through your body after death.

Attention, you. You are dead. This is the afterlife.

Mr.Rubberburner

03-17-2006, 10:42 PM

oh, ok...just making sure...i knew a bright guy like you would have the answers...you know, considering how bright you are

idontmind462

03-17-2006, 10:44 PM

132

kamyar

03-18-2006, 07:43 AM

I tried doing some math....

10000 days - 27.4 years

jimmy - 11

MJK D.O.B. - 17 april, 1964

Judith MARIE Keenan passed away - June 18th, 2003

Maynards age at this time - 39

Now add 10000 days to Jimmy's 11 and you get 38.4 years

10000 days may be the approximate amount of time from something that happened at jimmy's eleven to his mother's passing???

Count 10000 days backwards from June 18th 2003 and you get to about Jan 30th 1976 when MJK would have been 11 years old, about to turn 12 on April 17th that year...

shit.. i just discovered this yesterday as i was driving.. you bastard.. you beat me to it!

i agree with you btw..atleast on the theory

idiotface

04-20-2006, 05:19 AM

umm.. doesnt it say in the lyrics
"You were my witness,
My eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one"

gerbil

04-20-2006, 05:32 AM

He does mention her by name in "10,000 Days (Wings part 2)."

So, uh.

There's that.

EDIT: Oops, didn't read far enough. Did this really get 5 pages long before someone pointed that out?

Vegama

04-20-2006, 06:35 AM

How is this a theory? He says her name directly...

and btw, MJK's real first name is James, and Jimmy is a common nickname for James, implying perhaps that she called him Jimmy, or he was called Jimmy in his child hood (at age 11)

(Edit: I also agree that it's (jimmy) about him changing, possibly when he first decided against christianity, and began to think for himself, because of what his mother had to go through.)

(edit: also, 11 was the age he was in which his mother had a stroke... just in case some of you are still confused)

red40

04-20-2006, 07:53 AM

i was going to post something like this myself. after listening to wings and 10k days... i feel like i'm starting to understand Jimmy for the first time. jimmy is more complex than i realized, and i see now that i'm not as close to understanding it as i thought. i have a feeling there is a lot on this album that is going to do this. it's a much more personal open album. i think it's going to shine some light on a lot of the past work (wow.... hope no one thinks i made a bad "shine your light" pun there). going to be a lot of fun figuring out this emotional puzzle... thank you tool for not being afraid and letting the defence mechanizms down a touch.

bonch

04-20-2006, 08:28 AM

Do you think the guys in Tool are laughing at you?

Why does someone post this in every thread at some point, as though the members of Tool are actually sitting down, firing up a web browser, and reading all the threads and "laughing" at people? Is there some sort of thrill in the thought or something?

If anything, the band would enjoy the fact people are discussing the album and giving it publicity, but most likely they have better things to do, like being Tool.

bonch

04-20-2006, 08:47 AM

The lyrics, as always, can be applied universally, but it's clear that Maynard was writing from a specific context given the background circumstances of his life. I think he's using the name 10,000 Days to convey a lyrical theme of a long period of suffering or loss, using his personal life as a basis. The album sounds pretty shattered and unhappy, but not necessarily angry and heavy. It's an odd balancing act.

Lamb & Martyr^

04-20-2006, 08:53 AM

The song 10,000 Days obviously means something to Maynard. Why would he put such a personal song on a hoax?

CalfMan

04-20-2006, 08:03 PM

umm.. doesnt it say in the lyrics
"You were my witness,
My eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one"

Yes it does.

He does mention her by name in "10,000 Days (Wings part 2)."

So, uh.

There's that.

EDIT: Oops, didn't read far enough. Did this really get 5 pages long before someone pointed that out?

Yes it did.

But they didnt know that 34 days ago, when they posted all the comments you are reading.

Rules of ToolNavy:

Rule #1: Search before starting a new thread.

Rule #2: If flaming, do it at least within a month of the original post. (or risk being called, as the kids say, "slow")

emf

04-30-2006, 08:38 AM

I'M still amazed thet jesus made waffles

evan sussman

04-30-2006, 12:43 PM

For the third time now....

You're talking about individual songs...I'm talking about album names...

Yes, MJK writes about personal things...but they don't name their albums 'Jimmy' or 'H' or 'Prison Sex'...the album names are always songs on the record that embodie much larger ideas....not those limited to the personal experiences of a single band member..

Maybe the "10,000 days" title of the album has a different meaning then the title of the track. Such as is possibly the case with the album title "Ænima," and the track title "Ænema." I realize there isn't a difference in the spelling or presentation of either titles with their newest release, but I kept thinking this as I read this thread, and thought I'd throw it in.

From the FAQ...

G60. Why is the song spelled differently than the album title?

Clearly, since "Ænema" the song title must have a different meaning than "Ænima" the album title; that whatever "Ænema" represents must not be representative of the whole album.