Reflection again

[paraflux]

Take a look at the title of the song. you can hold it up in a mirror and the only difference will be the placement of the period. Many think it is an intial, and a song about a relationship, but to me it means something quite different. I think it is again referring to the reflection we know Tool to be so involved with. Take the verses. The first one is Adam doing the slow drawn out chords, while Justin plays the moving part. The second verse, they switch. Adam plays the moving part, Justin gets the slow part. I think the speaker finds him/herself in a gap with mirrored images (choices) before him and behind him. The snake is trying to seduce him, the blood lets him open up his heart (again). Both choices are devoid of any feelings, such as hate or ill will. But that doesnt make the choice any less important.
Perhaps the speaker is not allowed to make the choice yet. Obviously th correct one would be to move forward and open up his heart forever, but he still has connections (like to all other humans) that he feels affecting him even if they are "days away." He feels too connected to slip away without warning, and forever.

[Floydian Theory]

I think I agree more with your interpretation than most of the others although I do feel that Tool writes their music and purposely leaves it open to interpretation.

I have been reading up on Carl Jung recently, who I have heard, Maynard has studied quite thoroughly. And I came across something interesting which only furthered my interpretation of this song.
In almost every interpretation of this song that I have read, there was not much about the "snake".

Well, in Jung's theory, we have a specific archetype that he calls a "shadow". The "shadow" is said to derive from our prehuman, animal past when our concerns were limited to survival and reproduction. It has been called a "garbage dump" where we store the things we don't like or appreciate about ourselves. Symbols of the "shadow" include the snake, the dragon, monsters, and demons. And this tends to be the gaurdian of an entrance to a cave, or a pool of water, which is actually the collective unconscious.
Archetypes are basically the contents of the collective unconscious.
The collective unconscious is described as being thought, and emotions that we are born with, or a "psychic inheritance". Basically, a link between all things, or the "collective soul".

When I read this, I had already decided that my interpretation of "H." is more in line with the rest of the album, in dealing with concepts such as the "anima", and the "third eye" etc. That the song deals more with facing the parts of yourself that you don't agree with or like.
And in a sense dying, to be reborn anew.

[ShackledEidolon]

Most certainly the idea of death and rebirth exists throughout Tools music. Some other things you should look at when thinking of the serpent are various creation stories. They tend to reference these things for instance I think its Kuklakan that was the great snake (ocean) which swallowed up all the land and its own tail and that the snake was killed or cleaved to allow the land to part the ocean.

new world new life out of the snake or water. It is a common theme through out most creation stories...whether its creating light to sunder the darkness, raise the land to part the ocean, or stepping through the shadow we are looking at the same metaphor of creation of something new from what is its opposite.

Take a look into Freud to see some of the original grounds for the id which Carl Jung later took and revised into the idea of the shadow. Also look into the ego's defence mechanisms from the same field. It will shed light on a lot of things mentioned throughout Tools lyrics. Jung is important because of his mystic connections, his idea of the collective unconscious and his ideas of archetypes (so many archetypes)...I will comment more later but im at work right now

[Floydian Theory]

Originally posted by ShackledEidolon
Most certainly the idea of death and rebirth exists throughout Tools music. Some other things you should look at when thinking of the serpent are various creation stories. They tend to reference these things for instance I think its Kuklakan that was the great snake (ocean) which swallowed up all the land and its own tail and that the snake was killed or cleaved to allow the land to part the ocean.

new world new life out of the snake or water. It is a common theme through out most creation stories...whether its creating light to sunder the darkness, raise the land to part the ocean, or stepping through the shadow we are looking at the same metaphor of creation of something new from what is its opposite.

Take a look into Freud to see some of the original grounds for the id which Carl Jung later took and revised into the idea of the shadow. Also look into the ego's defence mechanisms from the same field. It will shed light on a lot of things mentioned throughout Tools lyrics. Jung is important because of his mystic connections, his idea of the collective unconscious and his ideas of archetypes (so many archetypes)...I will comment more later but im at work right now

Great. Thanks for the ideas. I am currently in a phase where I am obsessively pre-occupied with these types of concepts. Psychology, mysticism, sub-conscious mind, etc.
So I am reading ANYTHING that can sate this extreme hunger.
I'd love it if you would continue to keep in touch with me and tell me your thoughts as well. I am a very open-minded person and will always strive to understand another person's point, even if I disagree. After-all, I think not much in this world, is truly known for what it is.

I haven't read much about Freud except what has been said of him by Carl Jung. But I will definitely look into it.
If you have any other subjects or books or suggestions, please send them my way. Thanks for reading my post.

[paraflux]

Ok I had a new thought this past holiday weekend. Maynard talks a lot about choking infants, killing people, etc. here are examples

Pushit..."choke this infant here before me..." "Throw your fucking throat away, it can end no other way..."

Orestes... "Cut away, clear away, sever this umbilical [something] keeping me from killing you..."

H.... "too connected to you to slip away, fade away..."

And Im sure if I had time I could come up with others. But the point is I think especially rings true in H. is that the ones who are stepping through still get pulled down by those who are not, the babies, infants as far as evolution is concerned. The advanced humans cannot fucking wait to be set free of the bonds of this dimension, can't wait to leave behind all that is negative about the human race as it is today. It may not be that he CHOOSES to not slip away, but maybe he CAN'T slip away. The fact that he is too connected may be a reason, not a choice. Also there is the matter of the gap in pushit. He feels pushed and shoved towards the gap, and he really doesnt want to be there at all. But maybe he can't step away from the situation just yet. When the time comes to sever the umbilical cord, separating the un-evolved (or whatever term we are using in the place of evolve) from the source which feeds it, only the ones who can survive on their own, survive apart from being spoonfed through the cord are going to make it. Then? Heaven.

[Floydian Theory]

Originally posted by paraflux
Ok I had a new thought this past holiday weekend. Maynard talks a lot about choking infants, killing people, etc. here are examples

Pushit..."choke this infant here before me..." "Throw your fucking throat away, it can end no other way..."

Orestes... "Cut away, clear away, sever this umbilical [something] keeping me from killing you..."

H.... "too connected to you to slip away, fade away..."

And Im sure if I had time I could come up with others. But the point is I think especially rings true in H. is that the ones who are stepping through still get pulled down by those who are not, the babies, infants as far as evolution is concerned. The advanced humans cannot fucking wait to be set free of the bonds of this dimension, can't wait to leave behind all that is negative about the human race as it is today. It may not be that he CHOOSES to not slip away, but maybe he CAN'T slip away. The fact that he is too connected may be a reason, not a choice. Also there is the matter of the gap in pushit. He feels pushed and shoved towards the gap, and he really doesnt want to be there at all. But maybe he can't step away from the situation just yet. When the time comes to sever the umbilical cord, separating the un-evolved (or whatever term we are using in the place of evolve) from the source which feeds it, only the ones who can survive on their own, survive apart from being spoonfed through the cord are going to make it. Then? Heaven.

Great interpretation. That hadn't crossed my mind but I think there may be truth to what you said.
I do think that as a whole, society is held back by the non-believers etc.
If we are all truly connected, then it would stand to argue that one person's progress would help others, but one person's adversity would create blocks (?) for others. And as a whole, those of us who are trying to progress within our selves and our own minds, are being held back to some degree by those who don't know, don't care, don't try to become whole.
I think that might just be the true challenge in transcendence, it is hard enough to face yourself, and call out all of the things you dislike, and then initiate change within yourself. I believe it would be harder still, to then have to face all of the things that you dislike about society as a whole, about ourselves as one connected being, because you can't completely change those things on your own. What you can change, seems to be done mostly by a type of dominoe effect. You change something about yourself, or the way you react to people, etc, and then in turn, that creates a change within those people directly around you and so on, and so on.

Along the same lines as your theory, I think that the umbilical cord and related lyrics might relate to the dependance we all place on society. We are constantly dependant on (examples) other people to do their job so that we can get ours done, our roomates to pay their part of the bills so we keep our apartment, our pay checks to give us money to live on, and so many more things I could never list them all.
I think this dependance creates a large portion of the stress and depression people deal with everyday. But society is set up to work a certain way, and those of us who don't agree with it, either have to just go along with it (because that's the way things are) or we have to go up against so many odds.
Just my thoughts. It's been great talking to you, hope you will keep filling me in on those thoughts in your head. :)

[ShackledEidolon]

Excellent posts...its similar to the quote from ghandi...you have to be the change you wish to see in the world.


Yes we as individuals are striving towards enlightenment but until we as a society transend we haven't rally done much of anything. Take the idea of heaven for instance. If in fact there are only so many chosen to be allowed into heaven (some incredibly small number) then its going to be a lonely empty place for a while until others get there...I wonder what enlightenment is like when you are among the first to arrive at the state.

Perhaps its not even possible to fully leave this state until enough have transended and shifted the perception of reality enough as to grow. It must therefore be essential to help as many along this road as possible...can't be selfish in this goal of enlightenment it would be as if your pinky sliced off the wrist in an attempt to have more freedom from the whole...it would die without the body. So we cannot ascend on our own...we must do it as a whole.

[Nivool]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Floydian Theory
[B]

Great. Thanks for the ideas. I am currently in a phase where I am obsessively pre-occupied with these types of concepts. Psychology, mysticism, sub-conscious mind, etc.
So I am reading ANYTHING that can sate this extreme hunger.

If you are interested in these concepts, you should read Lacan...Lacanian theory very much deals with these themes from a...let's say post-structuralist point of view. He's also concerned with childhood and how personality is created, with the concept of the mirror, and so on...in fact, he is quite useful when you are dealing with TOOL.

[Floydian Theory]

Originally posted by Nivool
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Floydian Theory
[B]

Great. Thanks for the ideas. I am currently in a phase where I am obsessively pre-occupied with these types of concepts. Psychology, mysticism, sub-conscious mind, etc.
So I am reading ANYTHING that can sate this extreme hunger.

If you are interested in these concepts, you should read Lacan...Lacanian theory very much deals with these themes from a...let's say post-structuralist point of view. He's also concerned with childhood and how personality is created, with the concept of the mirror, and so on...in fact, he is quite useful when you are dealing with TOOL.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am going to have to save up some money and go on a horrendous book-buying spree.
A friend of mine just bought me a book called "The Writings of C.G. Jung" which I have only read a couple pages of. It is really good so far though. In reading Jung, I have found a way to relate to Tool in a way that I have thus far not been able to relate to "most" other bands.
If you have not read anything about Jung (though I assume you have), you should. It is most certainly interesting reading. Also, I am about to start a Psych. class and possibly take a philosophy class after that. Any other suggestions?