tool hates christ

[dogsiloot666]

it is obvious that tool is not a fan of religon. just look at the facts.

[jpmanson]

Originally posted by dogsiloot666
it is obvious that tool is not a fan of religon. just look at the facts.

well, ill agree that they are against organised religion, but i dont think that they are against christ.. i have a live soundfile where maynard was actually commenting about "very pure ideas" from people like christ or mohammed..

[reign3]

i read in some articles when maynard said his problem isn't with the religion itself, it's the people who deliver and recieve the message. organized religion

[paraflux]

Stop using tool as a justification for your personal hatred towards religion. We have many fellow tool fans who are involved with religion, and I do not think any less of them than others simply because they are not involved with a church. Start thinking about, instead, how religion has turned from its original intent, that being to harness spirituality into a personal relationship. It works, its just it isnt done right in america.

[fuzzo]

organized religion is just like organized crime.

[dodes]

I think I get the opinions of tool from what I remember hearing adam say "... hate it how religion is forced down our f#$%in throats..."

Something similar to that. I regard myself as a pretty religious person. I'm not insulted in any way by what Tool say... Opiate's a cracking song.

I think i heard in that same interview adam say something to the effect of "...people have become even more in touch with their religion by Tool... and that's fine by us..."

Personally I feel that questioning your religion can make you even more spiritual in the end... I guess Tool's played that part with me and that makes me like the music even more.

I just pray the rumoured live dvd comes soon... need more tool.

[Bannockburn]

it is obvious that tool is not a fan of religon. just look at the facts.

yeah, but ‘facts’ are relative.

As, like everyone here before me have already said – that ‘tool’ ‘perhaps’ is ‘against’ religion could in of itself be a fallacious. As we already know, there is St. Paul’s Jesus – that which organized religion has followed, and Jesus the Evangel who nobody has yet followed.

Also, to be against means that you are still bound with the thing you are trying to get away from. So what is that telling us about Tool?

Clearly a distinction probably has been drawn through our eyes. But, like again, secondary qualities are always inputted in our thoughts.

[SmallWangedMan]

Personally I feel that questioning your religion can make you even more spiritual in the end

Couldn't have put it better myself. Generally people either worship their God/Gods dogmatically and are threatened by the though of questioning him/her/them/whatever, or they feel they're morally and philosophically advanced past the point of religion and they "know" that all religions are bullshit.

People misinterpret "question." You take a concept, and you assume that both nothing you know and have heard about it necessarily true, and that nothing you know and have heard is necessarily false. Then you go from there. THAT'S how you gain spirituality. Well, that's one possible way...

Also, it's definitely possible to achieve spirituality without devoting yourself to a particular God or religion.

it is obvious that tool is not a fan of religon. just look at the facts.

"Religion" is a very relative term. I agree that often they're trying to make a point about the negative effects of organized religion, but at the same time Tool is a very spiritual and metaphysical band. In my opinion, Atheism is a religion, because it's generally an organized acceptance of a way to believe that has no founding in logic or reasoning. I think this all comes back to the 'ol Think for yourself/Question authority idea they push.

[Smokin joe]

I wish I could remember the actual line, but I have an live Opiate mp3 where Maynard says:

"There are some people that had some great ideas, Jesus, mohammed, but then they're PR guys fucked everything up."

I dont think Maynard, or TOOL or whatever hates Christ, they would hate religion if anything. Personally, religion is a good thing to have around, it gives us morals and a good way to live our lives, but unfortunately it's really old and some people take it way to seriously.

joe

[paraflux]

glad to see most people do not need justification through the lyrics to support their own hatred towards religion.

[eonblueapocalyp]

As i see it, and i am just guessin here, tool does'nt hate christ. In the cd cover of aenema it said something like " bel;iefs are dangerous, they allow a mind to stop thinking, a non thinking mind is clinnically dead." he is saying that religeon in it's pure form is just small guidlines to live by. But people can't think for themselves and make a complete set of rules to live by, and screw it up. Spiral out....

[George Bush Sr.]

My views against Christianity or religion in general are
directed towards the 'middle men'-those who are in power
and use religion as a market force by which to manipulate
human beings for their own personal gain.

Maynard

[paraflux]

"Anger is constructive, hatred is not."
-Maynard

[DXRocker73]

I'm a Roman Catholic so therefore I practice in organized religon, I however do so in my own choice. I've studied/questioned my faith in the Church and God in general many times and I've liked what I've found, and chose to remain Catholic.

I don't think Tool denounces Christ or even religon at all, it's chose who don't think for themselves.

Some, don't ever question their faith as their taught it's wrong, and they just take what their preacher or Priest in my case says. That's wrong, you can still agree with what your Priest/Preacher says, but do so on your own judgement, not because you're told too.

The Catholic church actually encourages it's people to question their faith, which is a very good thing.

[paraflux]

Im sorry, I cant resist.
I am glad you question and find the answers you seek. But the Catholic Church encouraging questions? Come on, man. If they really encouraged questions they would let us in the Vatican library. They would tell us when they find ancient manuscripts that tell us the kingdom of heaven lies within us. They would not have excommunicated people who tried to explain that the Earth was not flat and that Man was not the apex of creation. The Catholic church has done more to hide the truth than our government has.

[paraflux]

Thats hilarious. I love the skirts.

[DXRocker73]

Yes the Catholic Church encourages it's people to question, I've heard Priests, the Pope, and religous leadrs of the Church say to the Public, and I quote:

Questionong, is a human nature, it must be nourished with answers to the full honesty and encouraged to continue.

The Church has made mistakes in the past, yes. But none of them could be held against us today.

Martin Luth and honest rebel? Lol don't get started, I'd type it now but I gtg, perhaps later tonite.

[DXRocker73]

Since I'm not allowed to edit my message above, I have to double post:

Paraflux- How would you know the Catholic Church even has these manuscripts if they were held from the public? I'm not aware of these manuscripts obviously but the Catholic Church has always used the the Scripture from the Bible Catholic scholars put together years ago, the Bible. No other scripture to my knowledge.

The Vatican does have a library, but people wouldn't be allowed in because well certain book in there would just have to be poked right to crumble to pieces, lol. Not because the Church has something to hide.

Honestly, in all my study of religon, I've found Catholism to be among the most honest.


mstajduh- The Pope was VERY forward about the altar Boy issue, stating that "these men are NOT men of God like the men in the riesthood should be, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, not sent to another parish."

I was like: "Thank you so much!" Lol I agree with every word the Pope said.

Today, the Catholic Church is very strong, I won't argue that there have been mistakes made in the past, or even that today that they aren't terrible Priests and bad parishes

But I've found, with religon, that in most cases, you can't blame the religon itself, but the smaller groups of people who fucked it up.

[paraflux]

Originally posted by DXRocker73
Since I'm not allowed to edit my message above, I have to double post:

Paraflux- How would you know the Catholic Church even has these manuscripts if they were held from the public? I'm not aware of these manuscripts obviously but the Catholic Church has always used the the Scripture from the Bible Catholic scholars put together years ago, the Bible. No other scripture to my knowledge.

The Vatican does have a library, but people wouldn't be allowed in because well certain book in there would just have to be poked right to crumble to pieces, lol. Not because the Church has something to hide.

Honestly, in all my study of religon, I've found Catholism to be among the most honest.


mstajduh- The Pope was VERY forward about the altar Boy issue, stating that "these men are NOT men of God like the men in the riesthood should be, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, not sent to another parish."

I was like: "Thank you so much!" Lol I agree with every word the Pope said.

Today, the Catholic Church is very strong, I won't argue that there have been mistakes made in the past, or even that today that they aren't terrible Priests and bad parishes

But I've found, with religon, that in most cases, you can't blame the religon itself, but the smaller groups of people who fucked it up.

They dont let people in because it would destroy all they worked for to control their followers. If it is so damn accessible, scan the books and put them online. If they are that concerned about keeping true, they would do something like that. You are so into defending the catholic church that you might not see outside that box. You CANNOT say that the pope and friends arent worried about keeping their power.

Another thing that makes me sick... The pope "absolved" all those boys from the sin of seduction who the priests abused for their own personal ungodly pleasure. Apparently some of the mothers of those kids were scared their sons were going straight to hell for being involved in such a scandal, and were relieved that the POPE said their sons could enter the kingdom again.

[DXRocker73]

Excuse me, but please don't tell me I'm so caught up in defending that I "don't see outside the box" I've already stated how I'll question everything. And I'd appreciate you not accusing me based on one post.

Now, how do you know that theses manuscrpts are even in there? You didn't answer that. AND I stated why people wouldn't be allowed in. Not that they would be.

What power would the Pope have may I ask? Politics stopped caring about Catholic opinions long ago, so all he'd have is the Church itself, which is another thing people turn their backs on.

And the victims commited no sin whatsoever, they are VICTIMS not sin commiters. Show me how you know of the Pope's absolution.

I'm not defending, I'm questiong.

[Gee Hawd]

Alright, I've never posted here before, though I have lurked around off and on for a little while, until I came across this topic. So I figure I'd give my two cents on the topic, and see how you all feel about it, if you wish to reply to my thoughts.

Personally, I've never fully understood the purpose of a church. Basically you go to the same building once a week as quite a few other to keep your faith. You also give a certain amount of your earnings to the church, as so you look better in the eyes of god. I see this go on relatively close to where I live. The preacher, who does nothing else but preach at this church, drives a brand new Dodge Vyper to and from the church every sunday. The church has also built offices as so they can count through the donations more effectively.

They have cubicles.....to count money, and lots of them too. In my opinion, it started with good moral ideas, but then someone tried to make a little dough on the side and screwed everything up.

I have found that those who attend church are those who are looking for the acceptance of others, trying to be part of the flock.

True, Catholism may be the most honest religion, but that still makes them dirty liars.

[DXRocker73]

Actually you'd be amazed at just how many charitable things I've seen my parish do. Food drvies are just one, but finances which include paying a utility bill for someone in need is another. And these are things I saw my own Parish do.

Priests, are to take a vow of poverty in their Oridination, now that doesn't mean living on the streets, they have houses, but I don't ever want to see one in a Dodge Viper, at least, not a new one, lol.

I won't argue that some do attend Church purely for socialization, but they'd be wrong too. Church is time with God and to receive the Eucharist.

[paraflux]

I said you MIGHT not see outside the box. I dont know you, so the possibility exists. Defending yourself is certainly an apparent necessity.

[paraflux]

I dont say there arent churches doing "good" things. We need those people to counteract and balance the people or groups of people who do horrible things. But when you get in the upper echelons of the hierarchy of the church, namely the catholic church, things get hazy and defensive. Fine, I wont touch the books in the vatican library, just let me in and you can turn the pages for me. Or scan them or whatever. I want to read the gospel of Thomas. I want to know what Mary Magdalene had to say. There is a passage in Revelation that says anyone who adds to this book or takes away will perish in hell. Why has the church ignored this?

[DXRocker73]

I wasn't getting defensive Paraflux, I was merealy telling you not to speak for me, nothing more. You wouldn't want me speaking for you now would you?

Once again Paraflux, you're chritisizing the Catholic Church on their library, but again how do you even know the books exist?

[George Bush Sr.]

How do you know they don't exist ?

[DXRocker73]

That's why I'm question Paraflux George. To find out.

[paraflux]

How would I know if I am not allowed in? I'm saying that would be the only reason to close it to the public, and even if they opened it, they would have to have a separate library that the public would not be allowed to see. It's not the fact that the books and scrolls are old, because they could be scanned. So there must be another reason.

[DXRocker73]

Amen mstajduh, in fact that's one of the things that made me decide through it all to remain Catholic. The Catholic stance on the Bible, as we take the entire book conceptually and not literally, thus keeping open-minded to science.

Paraflux, ok, now you're just sounding like a conspiracy theorist, you've never been in there, so for all you know, there are no books in there unreleased to the public. So you can't deny the Catholic encouragment of questioning if you really don't have any examples, excluding history.

[paraflux]

I see it is pointless to pursue this. You win at the logic, ok. Still does not keep me from knowing there are other books available that would cause humans to be controlled less easily if we knew of their existence. Call me what you will. If the Catholics are so damned honest, why arent they preaching the Christ-consciousness?

[paraflux]

I guess my main beef with the church, namely the catholics, because they are the leaders of christianity in my eyes, is that they do not teach that we can be like Christ and have what he had. They dont tell us we are all a part of God. They dont tell us all these things and still promise eternal life to its followers. I could be a devout catholic and still not have the faintest clue what true spirituality is all about. I may know the ritual to rise or kneel to, but I dont know my thoughts are creating reality as I kneel or stand.

The leaders of the church HAVE to know these things. It is their supression of this truth that naturally makes me disregard what they say in a lot of cases.

[DXRocker73]

What do you mean by that? Excuse me if I'm isinterpreting your words, but actually Catholism teaches that we should try to be like Christ in the way that was moral and just and holy.

Eternal Life is Heaven, and that is something age old even in the Catholic teachings, as well as Spirituality.

[paraflux]

DX, I mean that the Catholic church does not support the ideas of evolution to a new dimension, aka, acheiving Christ consciousness, or being Christ-like. Its not just about being just and holy. We all have the ability to reach christ's level of spiritual awareness. It is not preached, not only in Catholicism, but anywhere in Christianity. But I would think the first ones to admit such a thing would be the Catholics. They have more balls when it comes to making changes that affect followers. Unfortunately, they also have more sick men in the hierarchy of the church. Sick meaning perverted, twisted excuses for spiritual leaders.

Yes, eternal Life is Heaven. We will have eternal Life when we reach this stage of consciousness and evolution. Heaven is being able to manifest thoughts instantly into reality. Havent you noticed that Tool's music is more like pure thoughts than structured arrangement? They are there. They can create music in the fourth by thinking about it. Thats why it is so powerful. Thats why it has so much meaning, and why people take it so seriously. Tool is doing what Christ did, by offering examples of what we are capable of. That alone should wake anyone up.

[DXRocker73]

Because Christ is God, we are mere mortals, we will never add up to what Christ is simply because we are not gods. But as Christ is a very kind and loving he gives us the chance to go to Heaven with him and spend Eternal Life there if we live our lives the best we can.

You see one thing I like about Catholism, is their perception of Christ, as loving savior and not strict judge like others perceive him. Yes Christ judges us on our actions, but in a nutshell his asking of us was to have faith and be the best we can, not deny ourselves conforts.

The Catholic church doesn't support these ideas because they are contray to Christ's teachings. Christ started the Catholic Church, so without Christ, well there obviously is no church.

[paraflux]

Originally posted by DXRocker73
Because Christ is God, we are mere mortals, we will never add up to what Christ is simply because we are not gods. But as Christ is a very kind and loving he gives us the chance to go to Heaven with him and spend Eternal Life there if we live our lives the best we can.
.


See, this is where we break down in communication. We think differently on this matter. We are mere mortals only if we choose to be. This was one reason I left the church. I was sick of people having such a dreary outlook on who we were, or more pointedly, who we were not. We CAN have what Christ had (has) and we CAN realize that we are ALL a part of GOD. We are ALL made in HIS image (which, by the way, is a star tetrahedron, such as the one behind the guys head in the lateralus booklet), so once we realize what we are a part of, we can start creating Heaven.

[DXRocker73]

We are already a part of God as he did create us in his image, but we still are merely mortal.

I nor the Church has a dreary outlook on mankind, at least compared to other Christian denominations, who have NO faith in man whatsoever.

We can have what Christ had in Heaven as far as purity and holiness, but not godlike ways.

I'm just curious... but what causes you to believe the way you do?

[George Bush Sr.]

fuck catholicsm

[paraflux]

Originally posted by DXRocker73
We are already a part of God as he did create us in his image, but we still are merely mortal.

I nor the Church has a dreary outlook on mankind, at least compared to other Christian denominations, who have NO faith in man whatsoever.

We can have what Christ had in Heaven as far as purity and holiness, but not godlike ways.

I'm just curious... but what causes you to believe the way you do?

Everything I have read and listened to has poked at my intuition and my intuition has said simply "yes." AEnima actually helped me rebirth, in one night I tore down my walls of belief and dogma and started anew. Thats a lot to do in one night. AEnima helped me see we are all gods in our own right. I dont REALLY disagree with you. We are mortal, but we are also immortal. Our energy is taking new steps. I have seen visions, and I do not think I am special for doing so, all of us can. I know we are headed for heaven. I want to be there, in the new dimension, creating Heaven with all of the rest of you.

[DXRocker73]

George Bush, You got something to back up that assinine statement?

Paraflux, that's an intersting way of seeing it. I do believe that while we are mortal, we are very "holy" in that way. I often look on the beauty of humanity and see the energy and divinity that is us. God did good, God did good.

[Smokin joe]

I don't know, I would have to say there is no god. I mean, there is so much going on, and there is so much unknown that I refuse to believe in something to large and simple as a God who just pooped out an earth and made a bunch of people.

What we came from is much more mysterious.

Religion is definitely a good thing to have around, it's instilled us with a sense of morals (for the most part) and I would have to say it's helped move our people forward in the earlier days of civilization.

However, religion is also the source of a lot of shit. And it's because the people in charge of religion are fucking humans. Led by humans in the name of Christ we had the Holy Wars and Crusades which was all 'in the name of God.' Then there were scientists who were persecuted and jailed when they refuted what the church had to say in regards to science.

Religion is a good way to scare kids into listening to what their parents have to say, but it's all too old, parents are smart enough to teach their children about life, and what types of choices can land you where. Maybe it would cause kids to reach out a little more.

Then again, people need the sense that someone is watching over them, that something is protecting them, and that whatever happens, it's all part of God's plan. My mother is like that, she doesn't mind flying as much as I do because she believes that a 'God' is watching over, making sure nothing bad happens...

Basically religion is like TOOL, interpret it the way you find the most beneficial, but don't push your thoughts on me if I disagree, cause I'll crucify your ass.

joe

creationism is stupid

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by DXRocker73
George Bush, You got something to back up that assinine statement?

Paraflux, that's an intersting way of seeing it. I do believe that while we are mortal, we are very "holy" in that way. I often look on the beauty of humanity and see the energy and divinity that is us. God did good, God did good.

I am a catholic.

"I can't say what I want to, even if I'm not serious....."

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by paraflux
Everything I have read and listened to has poked at my intuition and my intuition has said simply "yes." AEnima actually helped me rebirth, in one night I tore down my walls of belief and dogma and started anew. Thats a lot to do in one night. AEnima helped me see we are all gods in our own right. I dont REALLY disagree with you. We are mortal, but we are also immortal. Our energy is taking new steps. I have seen visions, and I do not think I am special for doing so, all of us can. I know we are headed for heaven. I want to be there, in the new dimension, creating Heaven with all of the rest of you.

I would recommend the artwork of Paul Laffoley to you. And I think you would like the Disinformation: The Interviews book. You would like the Grant Morrison interview quite a bit. And the Paul Laffoley interview. Then again, maybe you don't read or you are using one of those braile computers. dgshgdjfgjjjgvhmvhkkkjkj I bet that fucked you up.

[DXRocker73]

George Bush, even if you're not serious, why would you say that? Oh well, it's your posts not mine.

Smokin Joe, well, I agree with everything you've said exept for the fact that I myself believe in God.

[Smokin joe]

Originally posted by DXRocker73

Smokin Joe, well, I agree with everything you've said exept for the fact that I myself believe in God.

Hopefully I got across that it doesn't matter what you believe in, just don't push it on me.

I mean, science is a religion somewhat

joe

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by DXRocker73
George Bush, even if you're not serious, why would you say that? Oh well, it's your posts not mine.

Smokin Joe, well, I agree with everything you've said exept for the fact that I myself believe in God.

I did it for you my friend.

[George Bush Sr.]

erotica
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/exlibris/1998/06/msg00222.html

[DXRocker73]

Science and Religons never argued once I tell you that much Joe, People did.

[cureformax]

I think Tool is pretty anti-religious because they really believe in thinking for yourself, and religion defers all decision making to some Santa Claus-esque being that is in control of everything. A good Danny Carey quote:
"Destroy your ego. Trust your brain. Destroy your beliefs. Trust your divinity."
Oh, and don't forget that Tool is a rock band that makes money from albums, tours and merchandise.

[nenagh]

Why does everyone in this opinion poll think they are the smartest human being that ever walked the planet? Most Tool fans, and I do mean most, are losers who never graduated high school, let alone went to a post secondary education and were really, truely educated. They just listen to the music because its heavy metal. Religion is probably the most complicated creation in all of human civilization and the "intellectuals" on the page manage to to degrade it to 'fact', 'right', 'wrong'. The writers of Tool's music are intelligent people, alot more intelligent than any one on this page. Any one with even an incling of intelect and reason can see that wheather God exists or not, the true purpose of ALL religion is to progress and better human civilization. It is just our arrogance that leads us to think that we are more 'intelligent', or 'advanced' than the people who stated the great religions of the world. And another thing, Christianity is not the only religion on the earth. The fact that the people on here use Christ as a genaralization for religion, just furthers my agrument that they have absolutely no grasp of the material they are commenting on.

you know Im right.

[paraflux]

no. its all bullshit. just fuckin with you, but I feel the need to qualify myself. I have 10 hours left for my degree, although I do not plan to finish, as I am happy with what I do now. My dad and his dad were preachers, so guess who was filled with doctrine and dogma and was made to know the Bible cover to cover and see the "light" of the church for 18 years? I never qualified myself as more advanced than anyone, but I know I am intelligent enough and informed enough to discuss such matters, and do not need the permission of anyone to do so.

[Smokin joe]

I also have to say this on the matter. I don't realy know if it has been addressed (tried to look over previous posts), but I think that there is a BIG difference between anger and hate.

If you go searching on Kazaa you can find interviews with Maynard where he makes a great point:

Anger is constructive, while hate is destructive.

So the anger towards religion he displays in several songs doesn't necessarily mean he hates all religions. He just finds there's a deep flaw (he's not alone...) in the way [some] people believe and act nowadays.

And even if he shows resentment, 'anger,' toward religion, does it necessarily mean it's all against Christ? He probably resents the acts done by several terrorists 'in the name of Allah' thinking that they're going to go to heaven with virgins, etc... Many people know that Muslims are very peaceful people, but there are obviously many who use it to their own advantage.

Many heads of religion, it would seem, are spouting the wrong things, or perhaps letting people read too deeply into what is fact and what is fantasy. Trying to suck in as many minds as possible.

But oh well, i'm ranting right now and I gotta finish and astronomy project really soon for classes tomorrow.

joe

[Ascended Master]

i could not be fucked reading all the responses to this question as im sure that they are repeated about 50 times so sorry if i am repeating this for the 51st time, i believe that christ was the only enlightened being to be put on earth in his time, thi swas so because no one gave a rats about anything and life would have been another disaster like atlantis only with people who didn't have any power, christ gave us the best views of life and how people should live if there was a book of christs teaching that had not been doctored an dremained as he intended then we would all benefit alot from this instead though churches and religion has taken his sayings and missinterpreted them and is now using it to make a business as they always have. They are the people responsible for stopping our spiritual evolution as anyone with a new view point was burned at the stake, nowadays they are more accepting and they probably aren't as correct and moral as they should be but they arent doing any harm and are helping to keep people ethical. i highly doubt tool would hate christ as i would imagine that they have a similar wiew to me, i think that they would not enjoy seeing people loose their spirituality for religin as religion dominates spirituiality in the west

[3rd eye]

yeah but tool still send out the message of questioning authority, and that includes GOD.

[Ascended Master]

I think that its fair to say that jusst because you think that someone who god created says to question authority that it gives you or any mortal without knowledge a right to question him. God is divine, perfect you do not know anything about what came before this life or anything about your existance so you are not in a place to question an almighty powerful god, also he only has love for we are the ones who create the destructionj adn the hate, we create our own 'shadows' and we are the only ones who can free ourselves from them, look within yourself and ask yourself if you can truly say you can question a GOD? im sorry to pick apart your opinion but i believe you really dropped the ball on this one and someone questioning god is the only thing id really discourage

[paraflux]

Jesus... How do you learn if you do not question? And do you assume all mortals do not have knowledge? Or just the person you replied to in the thread? Because that is pretty judgmental, considering I dont know how you would qualify yourself to be an authority. Your name is ascended master. What overtone in which dimension have you ascended to? I have heard which one the ascended masters of this realm are partial to. I look inside myself and I question God, for although God can be found everywhere, the tightest connection we have is inside us. And so I look inside, and yes, I question, and I expect answers, not in a demanding way, but because thats how it works. I am a part of God, so I question myself through that aspect.

And just a nitpicky comment: Your posts would be a lot easier to read if they were a little more coherent, i.e. using periods every once in a while.

[reroute2remain]

i remember when this cite started, and i'd read it. Then i stopped. The my friend told me to start going back again because it was really funny now. He was right. Lots of people are tearing other people down left and right. it's not debate anymore, it's hostile. But the summary of this is, what the fuck does this thread have to do with the grudge?

[Ascended Master]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paraflux
[B]Jesus... How do you learn if you do not question? ........

You do not have knowledge of why god has sent us here, so therefore you do not know your true place and purpose in regards to questioning something as awe inspiring as a god. I do not qualify myself as an authority for then i would have to question myself and that would not serve me. I ask questions to god and guides through myself but do i question him? no, i have no idea what his grand scheme of things is and i have no desire to know for then what would be the point of life. Ascended Master is also just a name dude are you a paraflux? we all learn from each other but question creator and existance does not have a positive impact on our growth. if you are saying question authority in of context of seeking an answer to a question, and not questioning gods authority over us then i withdraw any statements i made otherwise i stand my ground. i think that you should question wether or not you understand to question that which imposes your growth and sets your boundaries and tells you who to be and what is right for you.
PS i am ascended but not to the level of master, i just think that is a cool name peace Jake

[captian_planet]

i think that they dont really scold religion, they just cant stand idiots who dont think for themselves about what there doing. I belive that if you think about your religion and think about what your doing and if it makes sence then they thinks its ok. and also aren't they satanist? (i get that from the many pentagrams i see on pictures of thiers) if so isnt that another religion?

[paraflux]

Originally posted by Ascended Master
[QUOTE]Originally posted by paraflux
[B]Jesus... How do you learn if you do not question? ........

You do not have knowledge of why god has sent us here, so therefore you do not know your true place and purpose in regards to questioning something as awe inspiring as a god. I do not qualify myself as an authority for then i would have to question myself and that would not serve me. I ask questions to god and guides through myself but do i question him? no, i have no idea what his grand scheme of things is and i have no desire to know for then what would be the point of life. Ascended Master is also just a name dude are you a paraflux? we all learn from each other but question creator and existance does not have a positive impact on our growth. if you are saying question authority in of context of seeking an answer to a question, and not questioning gods authority over us then i withdraw any statements i made otherwise i stand my ground. i think that you should question wether or not you understand to question that which imposes your growth and sets your boundaries and tells you who to be and what is right for you.
PS i am ascended but not to the level of master, i just think that is a cool name peace Jake

I have no boundaries. As part of that which you refer to as God, I helped set up my direction, our direction. If you need the christian view of God as a being to make it through life, so be it. I will not knock you for that. But when you try to tell others what they are and aren't capable of, it gets me. What has a positive impact on me could have a negative impact on you. Who is anyone to say that questioning God's (as a being) authority over us is detrimental? If anything, it could make us realize that God is the energy that runs through all things, we are all a part of God because we are all made in His Image. If Jesus was the Son of Man, and we are to strive to be like him, what's the problem when we get to that point? The Son of Man set a precedence for us, what we are to become. We all have the abilities Jesus had. We all know it, we have just been asleep for so long. If you question yourself it WILL serve you. The gift of intuition is so strong, most people ignore it. Paul speaks about the "inner man" or "inner being" in Corinthians, I think. It is through this inner being which we receive our divinity from the source of life. It is this divinity which makes us made in His Image, and this image allows us to blossom as our own individual creators of our own individual realities. In this fashion we are God.
You have No desire to know the grand scheme of things???? I find this lazy and irresponsible. We have been given the gift of knowledge, this capacity to understand, the ability to know. Do you have no desire to have what Jesus had?? What the saints and apostles had?? I find that hard to believe. You ask what would be the point for living? How about knowing your purpose? You say we cant, but I just cant grasp that. If you dont want to know, then you wont be told. If you do want to know, you will come to know why you are here. Getting your will aligned with that of the greater will is one of the most exciting things about life.


Yes, I am a paraflux, or rather, in paraflux. I have defined it as the process by which two opposing forces rise above the dualistic nature and unify, for they are the same thing, just different aspects of that thing. So, yes, I am in paraflux.

[Ascended Master]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paraflux
[B]I have no boundaries.

Do you think even for a moment i place boundaries on myself? Do not insult me, I dont know what god is and if he wanted me to know id know. To question god to find an answer to something is alright but to question his authority remember, he created us so questioning his authority is futile.
I use my intuition and i didnt say beans about jesus and the fuckin apostles, we all have god force coursing through us every moment for all eternity, we can use this to co-create our lioves and experiences. If i knew the grand scheme of things i would cease to be human, if i knew evrything why the fuck would i want to be alive? The reason i am here is to learn and there are ways and means to do this which avoid questioning the authority of the Almighty. You find this lazy and irresponsible i call it respect and faith. Jesus was sent here to bring a message, that message has been warped and twisted, he had an ability unparelled by anyone and he would have known the grand scheme because that was his whole purpose in life. It is also cool to not know things it adds a bit of excitement and mystery to life. If i knew everything that were to happen i would be a robot, and wouldnt enjoy life. I create my own experiences and have my own higher conciousness, so do not question me and try to adversley affect my journey with your little idiosyncracy's of life and afterlife, i already know most of the things you said anyway and that isn't much compared to what else there is to know about everything, these are the basic fundamentals, the awakening phase, wait till you get to further into you journey and you will see. Do you see beings or hear their messages and feel and know and love their omnipresance, if your answer is know then stop posting to me as i am sick of hearing your crap

[George Bush Sr.]

dumbass...no offense

[D/R/T]

very nice 'debate' you guys have going here...question: what does it all hav to do with the grudge????

[reign3]

I still can't get over the title of this thread, "Tool hates christ."

dogsiloot666, and anybody who agrees with you, needs to be slapped....hard. how narrow minded can you be? just to make a statement like that? you obviously know next to nothing about tool. you should go to the articles section and read everything in there. then you should go back and listen to every tool song one after another. then you should read all of the lyrics. then listen to every song again. perhaps then, you will be cleansed of all your stupidity.

buts that's asking a lot.

[paraflux]

Originally posted by Ascended Master
[QUOTE]Originally posted by paraflux
[B]I have no boundaries.

Do you think even for a moment i place boundaries on myself? Do not insult me, I dont know what god is and if he wanted me to know id know. To question god to find an answer to something is alright but to question his authority remember, he created us so questioning his authority is futile.
I use my intuition and i didnt say beans about jesus and the fuckin apostles, we all have god force coursing through us every moment for all eternity, we can use this to co-create our lioves and experiences. If i knew the grand scheme of things i would cease to be human, if i knew evrything why the fuck would i want to be alive? The reason i am here is to learn and there are ways and means to do this which avoid questioning the authority of the Almighty. You find this lazy and irresponsible i call it respect and faith. Jesus was sent here to bring a message, that message has been warped and twisted, he had an ability unparelled by anyone and he would have known the grand scheme because that was his whole purpose in life. It is also cool to not know things it adds a bit of excitement and mystery to life. If i knew everything that were to happen i would be a robot, and wouldnt enjoy life. I create my own experiences and have my own higher conciousness, so do not question me and try to adversley affect my journey with your little idiosyncracy's of life and afterlife, i already know most of the things you said anyway and that isn't much compared to what else there is to know about everything, these are the basic fundamentals, the awakening phase, wait till you get to further into you journey and you will see. Do you see beings or hear their messages and feel and know and love their omnipresance, if your answer is know then stop posting to me as i am sick of hearing your crap

Someone is getting hostile...
I think most of my earlier post was ignored. I never alluded to the fact that you place boundaries on yourself, you said, and I quote, " i think that you should question wether or not you understand to question that which imposes your growth and sets your boundaries and tells you who to be and what is right for you. " Again, you telling me what I should do, besides making one hell of a run-on sentence.
Again, We can have what Jesus had. If you personally dont want it and you wish to be left in the dark so you can feel "alive" then so be it. I happen to think knowing what there is to know makes me feel more alive than when I had faith, which, consequently, is the hope of things unseen. Once you have seen those things you dont need to hope anymore, because you KNOW. Of course the message of Jesus has been warped and twisted. That doesnt mean we can never know what he knew. I think the mystery of life, once solved, proves more exciting than ignorance.
I call it like I see it, I do not question you, only your willingness to shroud other people's eyes. You want to pay Jesus respect? Then UNDERSTAND what he had to say and WHY he said it. We are the children of God, we have the ability to grow and become Men and Women of God. We are all made in His image, we are all connected, we are all part of God.

[Ascended Master]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paraflux
[B]Someone is getting hostile...
Yeah heard it all before man, but when i use my intuition to help my decipher fact and fiction i beieve what i chose is right. U make good points but there is no use arguing no two peoples view on life are the same and this will go on adn on, i still wish to argue but it's futile. My boligerance towards you was unwarented but at the current time i was on a bit of a comedown and you know........
Thsi isn't the place for petty quarrels, you got your opinion i got mine and mines going great guns for me, so hay watever. By the way are you really into Quabbalah (spelled with a K or something along those lines maybe?)?

[paraflux]

Not really. I probably would be with a teacher, but I have none. I am just my own teacher for right now. Arguing is not necessarily futile. If done in the right way, it can steer new thoughts into our minds. Debate helps expand knowledge. That is why I dont get hostile or take much of this personally, because I am looking for the new positive experiences, not looking to be "right" in other people's eyes.

[Himself]

Just my opinion I'm sharing with you all:

I think DXRocker73 makes a valid point. None of us know the mystery of life and all the secrets it holds. We all get caught up in our own little worlds and problems and begin to question why things happen the way they do. Instead of looking inward and seeing how we can change ourselves for the better, we lash out at "God". We think that if he created us and loves us why is he letting this happen to me. By doing this we are only playing into the hands of evil (Satan, the devil, whatever). If you don't believe in such a being then you need to take a look around your environment. That's one of the best ways "he" tears us away from God, making us think that we have all the answers and that we are gods ourselves. Just read the first few chapters of the Bible. To think you've figured everything out and that you should have a temple built for yourself where you can lecture us lesser beings about life and what it all means is ridiculous and absurd. If you do "hate God" then reevaluate why. And for those who think there is no God because they have had bad things happen to them, think about this: pain is part of the human experience, we grow through pain, we learn through it.
If you accept Jesus Christ as being God in human form then you know that God himself has felt pain while he was a human here on earth. I don't know how many of us can say we were crucified for the good of the human race.

Just remember, this is only my opinion. If you disagree, tell me so. I am open to your opinions and really request them. But don't be an asshole about it. Being stubborn and belligerent is not going to help anybody.

Thanks for this little slice of space.

[paraflux]

I'll tell you so, and I wont be an asshole.

First of all, we are not operating on the same wavelength. You are placing limits and boundaries on yourself when you say you "can not" do anything. You say none of us know the secrets of life, etc. and I still strongly disagree. What, are we supposed to be kept in the dark forever? I CAN know what Jesus knew, have what he had, etc. because thats what he fucking came here for. To show us by example what is possible. To show us that humans are, indeed, made in His image. If we are, then that tells me I am God-like, I am a part of the glorious thing we call God. I guess you werent talking to me about the building of the temples to worship myself, at least I never alluded that that was acceptable. I do not "hate" God. I despise what christianity has become and what it "teaches" its followers. If Jesus were here in human form today he would simply be appalled at what all has gone on in his name down here. My thoughts on God you have not addressed. My experience is that we are all part of what we call God. Is the concept of the collective unconscious not familiar to you? I am not God, myself, no, but I am part of God and as such can manipulate my environment to suit me. I create my reality (universe) based on my desires and fears, like everyone else.
All Satan is is our own fear. If we face it with the understanding that we need not fear anything, we will have what it takes to evolve. If we succumb to the fear, we will continue to dwell in hell. I have read the first few chapters of the Bible, countless times. It is a story. A story to describe our situation the best way possible to the people of that time period. A metaphor.
I could go on, but it is hard to do when I dont know if we share the same the same definitions or core tenets. I personally dont care whether Jesus was actually here or if it was just a story. The story is still the same, and it is one we can learn from, but it is certainly not the only story, and certainly not the one most relevant to most humans in 2003. Tool, for example, has a much more relevant message for us that we can understand a hell of a lot better than the stuff written for a civilization that didnt even have science.

[Himself]

I agree with most of what you have written. Keep in mind though that we are not God the Creator. No human being has made a tangible reality out of anything except what is here now. To consider oneself as God's equal is folly. And doing so will lead to the downfall of all humanity. No matter how great we think we are, we can't create out of nothing we can only use what is given us. Also, I do agree with you wholeheartedly about us being part of this greater thing we call God. If God is simply the collective human consciousness that manifests its own reality, or God is a being who made all and we are simply lessers of him, I'm not sure. But also, neither are you.

Please comment.

[paraflux]

It is my experience (and I dont expect it to be everyone's, really) that the being who created the universe is the same collective we are a part of. I do not consider myself God's equal, how can the cell think he is as powerful as the entire body of which he is a part of? But as a part of that body, I have God-like attributes. As a part of the body, everyone does. The "creating something from nothing" happens when my thoughts are so focused that I manifest a thought or desire into this plane. Its that whole "made in His image" thing. We can have what Christ had, thats why some people call it the Christ-consciousness.

[Himself]

im pretty sure the 46&2 theory has been disproven due to the fact that some species of apes have more chromosomes than humans, but they aren't in a state of "Christ consciousness" now are they. throwing your poop doesn't qualify.

[Ascended Master]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Himself
[B]Just my opinion I'm sharing with you all:

I think DXRocker73 makes a valid point.

i believe that we have pre organised parts of our lives, eg when we die, our family, friends etc and that to lash out at god for anything that happens or to blame him for the bad in our lives is pointless. We can change this negativity simply by changing our thoughts, positive thoughts manifests positivity into our lives, negativity is usually born of ignorance. Ignorance to the fact theat we are spiritual beings doesn't void you of the consequences of negative thinking, a sad person who ignores spirituality and lifes lessons isn't free from the reprocussions of negative thought patterns. God does not judge us for what we do with our lives. If we are murderers who know that killing is wrong and who believe in worshipping satan, we would be no less loves than a priest, for this would be a young soul who may be here to learn the negative side of life or who are still just beggining there spiritual journey on the earth plane. Our lives are experiences and contribute to the whole, we judge ourselves and there are consequences, but only for spiritual growth. Just because you haven't yet connected with your spiritual side does not mean it isn't there. Try reading books about the afterlife, Reaching to Heaven is a great book, as are the Kryon books, try it and see for yourself, or ignore me completely, im sure paraflux will, kidding.
Post your opinions

[paraflux]

Originally posted by Himself
im pretty sure the 46&2 theory has been disproven due to the fact that some species of apes have more chromosomes than humans, but they aren't in a state of "Christ consciousness" now are they. throwing your poop doesn't qualify.

Here's something for you. The link is below.



"In the first half of the chapter, Ridley talks about how people sometimes persist on being wrong even when the answer is right in their face. For example, in 1921 a man named Theophilus Painter viewed human somatic cells under a microscope and when he counted the chromosomes inside the cells, he arrived at the conclusion that each cell contains 48 chromosomes (we now know that there are only 46 chromosomes).

In later years other scientists tried the same experiment and also "saw" 48 chromosomes even though through the microscopes they plainly viewed only 46. One group of scientists actually abandoned their research on human liver cells because they could only find 46 and thought that there was something wrong with the cells. Finally an Indonesian scientist, Joe-Hin Tjio, went to Sweden to work with Albert Levan. The two then recognized that there were 46 chromosomes. Actually, it really is surprising that humans don't have 24 pairs of chromosomes like the chimpanzee, orangutan and gorilla. If you compare the DNA of a primate and a human, they will be relatively the same except that we are missing one chromosome.

Genetically we are 98% identical to chimps and 97% identical to gorillas. We are more like chimps than chimps are like gorillas. This is because 2 of the ape chromosomes fused together to form our chromosome 2. They figured this out by the bands forming exactly so that they match the human chromosome 2. This, argued Pope John Paul II, is where God decided to put a spirit into an ape and, he figured, chromosome 2 must contain the genes for the soul. The Pope, however, is (may be) wrong. Complexity is not the goal of evolution. You can say that a bacterium is more evolved than we are, given that it has shorter generations and has more time to weed out unnecessary genes. Bacterium also have no introns (junk DNA) and only exxons. This means that bacterium use 100% of their DNA to construct useful proteins. Introns are used to make genes code for more than one protein. But, would that make us more complex and less efficient? We still do not know the answer to that question."



There's the answer to your question. More can be found at http://flysci.com/genome/genome_2.asp

[paraflux]

Originally posted by Ascended Master
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Himself
[B]Just my opinion I'm sharing with you all:

I think DXRocker73 makes a valid point.

i believe that we have pre organised parts of our lives, eg when we die, our family, friends etc and that to lash out at god for anything that happens or to blame him for the bad in our lives is pointless. We can change this negativity simply by changing our thoughts, positive thoughts manifests positivity into our lives, negativity is usually born of ignorance. Ignorance to the fact theat we are spiritual beings doesn't void you of the consequences of negative thinking, a sad person who ignores spirituality and lifes lessons isn't free from the reprocussions of negative thought patterns. God does not judge us for what we do with our lives. If we are murderers who know that killing is wrong and who believe in worshipping satan, we would be no less loves than a priest, for this would be a young soul who may be here to learn the negative side of life or who are still just beggining there spiritual journey on the earth plane. Our lives are experiences and contribute to the whole, we judge ourselves and there are consequences, but only for spiritual growth. Just because you haven't yet connected with your spiritual side does not mean it isn't there. Try reading books about the afterlife, Reaching to Heaven is a great book, as are the Kryon books, try it and see for yourself, or ignore me completely, im sure paraflux will, kidding.
Post your opinions

What makes you think I would ignore you when you say things like this? I agree with everything you just said. I do not lash out at God. I do sometimes lash out at Christianity, but that has nothing to do with actual God or spirituality. The only thing I would say differently is that negativity stems from fear at the base level. The true meaning of the word "ignorant" IS "not knowing." If you dont know, or are uneducated, you can cause negative things to happen, But negativity with the intent to be negative comes from something worse than ignorance. Fear will make a lot of people do desperate things, not necessarily thinking about the damage done.