The Grudge is about marital infidelity

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

And that's it.

Read the lyrics, but don't try gouging this thing into a poetic masterpiece so deep it would take a demigod to create it.

He cheated on his girl. He wears the scarlet letter now.

His girl is holding a grudge, like a crown - lording it over him - controlling and destroying the last semblance of a relationship they could possibly have.

Finally he begs, "Let go."

Thank you. I'm out.

[bluefire]

nope.

[UtUmNo1]

Not bad.

Where does Saturn fit in?

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

http://www.toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=27850

Thanks, Curt Schilling. You've got more than one talent.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

nope.

Yeah... It's never the obvious answer, is it?

You could probably write a whole book about this song, dissecting it word by word, letter by letter, drawing analogies and parallels to Jung, the Kabbalah, lachrymology, the Tree of Life...

and be so far from the truth.

I don't think Maynard took 75 years of garnered knowledge to encrypt divine messages into the song you're listening to.

[bluefire]

Yeah, I know the un-married 'nard probably wrote a song about marital infidelity. Oh yeah.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

No one likes a stickler, assbag.

[UtUmNo1]

Relationship infidelity for the stickler.

[bluefire]

The song is far too generic to say its about 1 definant theme. Its about letting go of grudges in general. Sure relationship infidelity is a possibility, but so are about 5000 other things. I think your getting too caught up in the whole "unable to forgive your scarlet letterman" - its a pretty common metaphore. I think your taking the reference to nathaniel hawthorne a little too literally. Tool songs aren't that specific.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I think you're giving far too much credit. He was (is?) engaged, so obviously he's fucking groupies... must have gotten caught to the point the girl wanted to leave him. She took him back, but lived in the past - we've probably all been there... What better way to reconcile and admit wrongdoing than to write a public song about how he is done stagnating and wants to push forward?

[Syringe]

You don't know what your talking about.

"Your wrong, get over it! Kay? kay."--Bill Hicks

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I don't know what my talking about?

I'd beg to differ on that count alone.

[pathological2]

I agree that something is harboring a grudge, just not a wife.

[SchismBoy]

Not bad.

Where does Saturn fit in?

In astrology, Saturn is a figure related to karma. Whether she cheated or he did, karma will take its toll, punishing who ever cheated. think of Saturn as a father who disciplines his child, looking out for his best interest. If the child does something bad, the consequences are great; if the child does something good, the rewards are great. So, Saturn could "drag you down like a stone or lift you up again." (sic)

[Foamy]

Interesting

[pluto]

In astrology, Saturn is a figure related to karma. Whether she cheated or he did, karma will take its toll, punishing who ever cheated. think of Saturn as a father who disciplines his child, looking out for his best interest. If the child does something bad, the consequences are great; if the child does something good, the rewards are great. So, Saturn could "drag you down like a stone or lift you up again." (sic)

im into astrology, but i guess i missed that karma link. nice connection.

[marshall888]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never heard anything in this song to suggest the specifics of what the 'grudge' the song refers to is. I think it's about grudges in general.

Ashes, do you have anything (ie, lyrics) to support your hypothesis?

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never heard anything in this song to suggest the specifics of what the 'grudge' the song refers to is. I think it's about grudges in general.

Ashes, do you have anything (ie, lyrics) to support your hypothesis?

I don't think he'd bother writing lyrics without being inspired by something...

Why write about grudges in general?

[marshall888]

Why write about false prophets in general on Eulogy?
I think most of Tool's songs are about a general feeling or meaning, rather than specific events or people.

Perhaps a song like Grudge is inspired by specific people/events, but I don't think there is any suggestion in the song to suggest what it was inspired by.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I'm going mostly off the scarlet lettermen remark.

This is specifically referencing adultery, would most definitely cause a grudge, to which he repreats to let it go.

He seems to be speaking as a narrator talking to one person who's holding negative feelings and lording some action over him (hence wearing it like a crown).

It just doesn't seem all that difficult to me, and most likely the easiest answer is the correct one...

[bluefire]

Scarlet letter is a common metaphor. Its not about anything specific. True story.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

Well, I'm sorry you refuse to accept the easiest and only explanation that was hinted at it the lyrics.

Here's my problem with people overanalyzing these songs:

Some explicit detail will be given.

It will be discounted.

Then, instead of going with the only single clue or clues relating to the most obvious subject matter, people assume it is not the one given, but the infinite others. It's crazy.

He could either A - be talking about cheating and how the refusal to wipe the slate clean is deteriorating an existing relationship (by actual lyrics given mind you)

or B - using every single word as a metaphor for something completely different than the intended meaning, rendering any actual meaning to the song null.

I say, do the math. If he's given you no lyrics to believe it WOULDN'T be about this, then why would you think it wasn't? And if so, why? Why would any other explanation be more probable than the only one with actual pinpointed, handwritten lyircs?

[bluefire]

Well then, when maynard says "choke this infant here before me" it must mean that he hates babys. If that little shit won't shut up, i'll make him. There is no possible way it could be a metaphor. Must be taken at face value.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

If the song was about his dislike of babies, then yes.

Listen, man. You're beyond repair with this one. Believe what you want, but you've posted nothing but refutation of the only valid clue in the song.

Read: Fuck off

[bluefire]

If you don't think there are metaphors present in tool's music, you are a complete and total idiot. It has nothing to do with overanalyzing, and everything to do with with the song being general. Saying its general is not giving maynard any extra credit than saying its about marital infidelity. You can't get your mind off one phrase, and your the fucking idiot.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I still don't see any indication of what you think the song's about. I've offered my opinion. You don't agree with it. Good. You want a medal or something?

[bluefire]

I think most of Tool's songs are about a general feeling or meaning, rather than specific events or people.

Perhaps a song like Grudge is inspired by specific people/events, but I don't think there is any suggestion in the song to suggest what it was inspired by.

^sums it up nicely.

The song is about grudges in general. I think you miss the point of the song if you talk about it being about one thing or the other. The point of the song is to "let go" of whats holding you down. The point Maynard is trying to make with the song is that holding on to anger is detrimental to your growth as a person. Its general - whatever your grudge is, let it go. If your grudge happens to be with your spouse, let it go. But the grudge can be anything, really. Anything that you can't let go of. This song contains a hell of a lot of symbolism, but the basic idea is there. Its kinda "open-ended" so you can take it and apply it to your own life.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

So why bother debating what any of Tool's songs is about if you want to give them the umbrella (and shallow) denotation of being about general ideas?

Call me crazy, but I'd think it rather stupid to pick a word out of the dictionary and write a whole song about the general idea. Artists don't have inspiration nowadays?

[bluefire]

Its hardly shallow, but I don't think you get what I (and others) are trying to say. I did not say its without inspiration - just without any definant clues as to what the inspiration is.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I think you're in the wrong section of the forums. Get it?

You gonna go into each individual song and say, "It's about things in general"?

I think there must have been some specific instance, action, defining moment to inspire the songs. My apologies that you find them to be more general.

[bluefire]

I never said it was about things in general. I said it was about the process of purging yourself of your deep held anger, your skeletons. It order to move on with your life you must "let go" of that which is holding you back - yourself. All I said is that the song makes no specific reference to one set grudge. I dont think you are reading what im saying, because you obviously don't get it.

[Estevan]

I think you two should hug and "let go" of your Grudge

[UtUmNo1]

They need to rediscover communication.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I never said it was about things in general. I said it was about the process of purging yourself of your deep held anger, your skeletons. It order to move on with your life you must "let go" of that which is holding you back - yourself. All I said is that the song makes no specific reference to one set grudge. I dont think you are reading what im saying, because you obviously don't get it.

No, I certainly get what you are saying, and know that you still give no basis to why the song was written.

Would you like me to translate that to asshole?

*makes various fart noises*

[marshall888]

I'm not saying the song wasn't inspired by something specific. I'm saying that I don't think there's enough evidence in the lyrics to support your theory.

I don't think the "crown of negativity" is being held over anyone's head. I think the person holding the grudge is wearing it (metaphorically speaking). It is a symbol of pride and self-righteousness. Hence "wear the grudge like a crown". The one wearing/holding the grudge is clearly the same one wearing the crown.

The scarlet letterman I think is used as a general metaphor for someone who has done wrong. If we took this phrase literally, we could also take the phrase "desperate to control all and everything" literally, and say the song is about some political leaders abuse of power, or someone trying to make themselves God.

You don't have to accept what I think or say your wrong. I'm just trying to offer fair productive criticism and point out some things you might not have thought off. It's called discussion. If you don't like that, don't post here. No need to be a jerk about it. This isn't the recycle bin.

[bluefire]

No, I certainly get what you are saying, and know that you still give no basis to why the song was written.


Thats because there are no real clues as to the inspiration of the song. It was definantly inspired by something, of course.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

I'm not saying the song wasn't inspired by something specific. I'm saying that I don't think there's enough evidence in the lyrics to support your theory.


There's more evidence in the lyrics to support my deduction than your refutation...


I don't think the "crown of negativity" is being held over anyone's head. I think the person holding the grudge is wearing it (metaphorically speaking). It is a symbol of pride and self-righteousness. Hence "wear the grudge like a crown". The one wearing/holding the grudge is clearly the same one wearing the crown.


Ever heard the phrase, "lording it over" someone? That is suggesting that the person who is acting holier than thou for their own benefit is acting as a lord, either in the biblical sense or the feudal sense, in which either way, there are crowns associated so it doesn't matter.

You just said exactly what I said. The person who is holding the grudge is lording the action and consequences over the person (the scarlet letterman).

This would also be the same person who would do this so far as to "grip it to the lonesome end."

If the scarlet letterman is not forgiven, the end of the two will come and be lonesome for both subjects. Again, he begs, "let go let go let go..."

The scarlet letterman I think is used as a general metaphor for someone who has done wrong. If we took this phrase literally, we could also take the phrase "desperate to control all and everything" literally, and say the song is about some political leaders abuse of power, or someone trying to make themselves God.

That would make sense if it wasn't littered with inferences, rather than lyric. You wrongly assume here that political leaders are the only ones who have control over something... At least I can take the lyrics and logically deem a scarlet letterman a cheater.


You don't have to accept what I think or say your wrong. I'm just trying to offer fair productive criticism and point out some things you might not have thought off. It's called discussion. If you don't like that, don't post here. No need to be a jerk about it. This isn't the recycle bin.

I'm trying to show you that you're wrong. If you don't like that, then don't post here.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

Thats because there are no real clues as to the inspiration of the song. It was definantly inspired by something, of course.

...well, except for the fact that it's about a grudge and he specifically references cheating, which would tie everything else together quite nicely...

[bluefire]

Other than taking a common metaphor at face value, you have no proof. The song is like 9 minutes long, and you take one line out, and then misinterpret it. I'm not buying...

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

Then don't. If you read the lyrics of the song, he's talking to one person who is holding a grudge against him.

Don't buy it?

Suggestion: hukt on fonix

[marshall888]

You don't have to accept what I think or say your wrong. I'm just trying to offer fair productive criticism and point out some things you might not have thought off. It's called discussion. If you don't like that, don't post here. No need to be a jerk about it. This isn't the recycle bin.

When I said this I was referring to your comments:
"Would you like me to translate that to asshole?
*makes various fart noises*"
AND the part where you posted a sarcastic reference to my opinions in this thread at another thread (Come if you dare, discussing Lateralus).

I agree with you on the meaning of the crown of negativity, I'm just saying that the way it's stated doesn't suggest who the one with the grudge has been wronged by.

Two big questions that might help me see your side better:

What lyrics state that the grudge is against him (maynard)?

Do you have anything else to suggest infidelity besides the use of the phrase "scarlet letterman"?

[bluefire]

he's talking to one person who is holding a grudge against him.

where does it say that? Theres nothing to say its against him.

Suggestion: Pulling your head out of your ass and thinking.

[Ashes-TO-Ashes]

When I said this I was referring to your comments:
"Would you like me to translate that to asshole?
*makes various fart noises*"
AND the part where you posted a sarcastic reference to my opinions in this thread at another thread (Come if you dare, discussing Lateralus).

I agree with you on the meaning of the crown of negativity, I'm just saying that the way it's stated doesn't suggest who the one with the grudge has been wronged by.

Two big questions that might help me see your side better:

What lyrics state that the grudge is against him (maynard)?

Do you have anything else to suggest infidelity besides the use of the phrase "scarlet letterman"?

During the song, he keeps mentioning this grudge...

He keeps referencing the word "we're", indicating that he is involved in the grudge somehow...

He also uses command statements like "let go"... basically every sentence that's not elaborating on the dangers of holding this grudge are command statements...

He keeps calling himself (deduced to him by the fact that he uses "we're" to describe the situation) "your scarlet letterman",

It just makes the most sense. Everything fits perfectly when you look at it in this context.

[marshall888]

During the song, he keeps mentioning this grudge...

That supports both of our points. It's about a grudge, we agree.

He keeps referencing the word "we're", indicating that he is involved in the grudge somehow...

That's a good catch. Two places: "Calculate what WE will or will not tolerate", and "Controlling, defining, and WE'RE sinking deeper" .

I'm not sure that the first use supports your theory, because if he (as the grudgee) and the grudger are the WE, then how does that make sense... I think this first use implies that he's talking about more than a specific person, but about a tendency in all people to hold grudges. Like WE = everyone. I think that's the only way the first WE makes sense
The second WE, however, might support your theory. If he and his grudger are the WE, it would make sense that they were 'sinking deeper' by not working things out. (cold silence has a tendency...) I think it's also possible that this could mean the same thing as the first WE though, as in many problems in the world are caused by people being unable to 'let go'.

He also uses command statements like "let go"... basically every sentence that's not elaborating on the dangers of holding this grudge are command statements...

Again, I don't see how this supports your theory any more than it does mine.

He keeps calling himself (deduced to him by the fact that he uses "we're" to describe the situation) "your scarlet letterman",

He says "Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen."
I already explained the "we" used in this verse. I can really see how this verse would make it seem like the singer is the grudgee. But I don't think the second line makes sense if that were the case. How could the we mean him and the grudger.

It just makes the most sense. Everything fits perfectly when you look at it in this context.

I'm understanding a little better how you see it like that, but I wouldn't say it fits perfectly. I think my explanation is more likely.

[LeMarchand]

Been thinking about this for a few days, I have to say, I think it's a good theory. The whole idea of infidelity can be seen in this song, espescially with the lines:

"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

"Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell."

But the beauty of Tool lyrics is they can be interpreted in endless ways, and no one way is the right way. It's all about putting your own ideas into the song rather than being spoonfed by the band. I like the idea that this song is about infidelity, it makes sense to me at least.

Simply saying "it's about grudges in general" isn't satisfying enough for me.

[YURAKAPTIV]

MJK has said many a time that he doesn't understand how anyone could dedicate themselves to one person and love only one person their whole life,it's not about marriage infidelity,at least not in the "most typical idea of what marriage is"

[9331]

And that's it.

Read the lyrics, but don't try gouging this thing into a poetic masterpiece so deep it would take a demigod to create it.

He cheated on his girl. He wears the scarlet letter now.

His girl is holding a grudge, like a crown - lording it over him - controlling and destroying the last semblance of a relationship they could possibly have.

Finally he begs, "Let go."

Thank you. I'm out.

This song is about you. Refute that.

[Forever In Debt]

Ummmm, I think Ashes is right, but that is just a broad way of looking at it. There are so many other things it could be about, and like you said, we could wright a book on it there are so many meanings that are far from the truth. But, I think this song requires a little more thinking.

[Watching and mentioning]

Wouldn't the proper topic for this thread be "The Grudge is INSPIRED by marital infidelity"? I've always seen tool songs as completely open to interpretation. Yes, when Maynard writes them, I'm sure he is inspired by something, but then he takes a step back and finds ways to make it less about him and more about anyone. If you want it to be about marital infidelity, that's fine. That's what it means to you. Maybe you've been exposed to an overabundance of this and it's the easiest thing to relate to. Fortunate for me, I haven't, and I choose to relate to this song in a different manner.

Is it wrong to look at Edvard Munch's "The Scream" and think horror or sadness? It's art, it's interpretable, and yes, it is usually inspired by something. That doesn't mean everyone has to see it from the perspective of the artist.

[lizbiz]

He cheated on his girl. He wears the scarlet letter now.

His girl is holding a grudge, like a crown - lording it over him - controlling and destroying the last semblance of a relationship they could possibly have.

Finally he begs, "Let go."

Thank you. I'm out.

Then don't. If you read the lyrics of the song, he's talking to one person who is holding a grudge against him.

I disagree, nowhere in the song does it specifically mention third/first person as is with almost all of Tools music. Sometimes Maynard's talking to himself, someone else, the general population etc... but it's alway up for interpretation. I think this song is more generic than specific. It's about crucifying the ego, giving up hatred, making yourself and the world a better place. I agree with the 'choose 1 or 10' line being about the moons of Saturn and about making the choice whether to move forward or be held back.

This song is not about marital infidelity, just because he references the Scarlet Letter, doesn't mean it has anything to do with marriage. It should be noted that the lyrics are 'Scarlet LetterMEN' not MAN. This is not a specific event/song, it speaking generically. The below excerpt is taken from Wikipedia, my relation of it to song follows:

"The scarlet letter is supposed to be a symbol of shame, but becomes a symbol of strength. Hester gains power from the symbol as she stands firm against her patriarchal society, bearing her punishment without surrendering to shame. Her kind personality overcomes the scarlet letter and its meaning changes from the intended 'Adulturer' to 'Able' for many of the townspeople. This change reaches its peak when the Native American, Roger Chillingworth's friend, thinks that the "A" on Hester's chest means she is a dignified and important woman in their society. In addition, Hester's ornate presentation of the scarlet letter upon her chest shows how she accepts her punishment as well as how she mocks the Puritans, almost as if she were proud of it. Finally, the scarlet letter is a constant reminder of her crime she committed with Dimmesdale, as is her daughter Pearl. However, the letter, a creation of her society, seems almost insignificant as compared to the child delivered to her by God, and thus reflects upon the meaninglessness of the judgement system in her society."

I loved this paragraph because to me it relates directly to The Grudge and all of Tool's music, without stressing the marital infidelity claim of this thread. Look at the last line, "a creation of her society, seems almost insignificant as compared to the child delivered to her by God and thus reflects upon the meaninglessness of the judgement system in her society." Now that relates to Tool's lyrics. Judgement from organized religion, the law, the government, society, really means nothing, they're just other people judging people based on THEIR BELIEFS and how they're told to act, what the fuck do they KNOW?

Scarlet LetterMEN as far as the song is concerned is speaking of all of the vampires in this world trying to bring you down, drain your energy, brand you with a label, persecute you for being a person, for being yourself; when in fact they don't know your story, they don't know who you are. The most notable reference is Hester changing the letter from a symbol of shame to a symbol of strength. 'Transmutate these leaden grudges into gold' Lets not forget that Maynard loves to read and reference material in many of Tool's songs, I think the reference to Scarlet Lettermen is just another way of delivering the message while referencing some great literature.

The Scarlet Letterman/men are not the people involved in the adultery, they are the people giving the label, so when Maynard is saying 'forgive the Scarlet Lettermen' he is definitely not saying 'forgive your wife/husband. Finally, Maynard has never been married, you MUST be married to committ adultery, cheating on a boyfriend/girlfriend is cheating, not adultery.

The argument is there. A Scarlet Letter is specific to adultery, but I think in the case of this song, it's a metaphor for slapping a tag on something and never being able to see it the same way again. Give it up, see it a different way, choose what you do, don't follow what others say, learn for yourself.

[base metal]

I don't think you can say that this song is about anything in particular. It can apply to any event in your personal life, not just marital infedility.