Liberation

[Schwarze Katz]

I'm not going to interpret this one, but just express my connection to it. To me, when I listened to it after escaping the chauvinist, strictly conformist Catholic Church, this song was liberation. I did not hesitate to use this song as my farewell to religious establishment and the entire Christian belief system. So many bible readings at mass would include, "And Jesus said..." So what. That's what this says to me. After studying the origins of the Catholic church, the selection and organization of the bible to conform to conservative desires that women should play no role in church (they did, early on, according to the studies I read), and the fact that very little can be traced back to the lips of the savior himself (I believe the count is 13 quotes from the new testament that can actually be credited to Jesus). The rest of what is attributed to him may just be a decades-long game of telephone.
I did "swallow his facade...so eager to identify with someone above the ground."
When I finally realized it, and made my decision, I said goodbye, and this eulogy helped me put him to rest.

[rickiep00h]

You've found some very interesting info, I think, I would be much interested in what you'd be willing to share in addition to what you just posted (i.e., details, more points, etc.)

I, too, have been becoming more and more critical of a book that tells me to to believe in it, and people that tell me to believe it just because it says to believe in it.

[Phosphorescence]

this song too was sort of my farewell to the catholic church , in my eyes , i saw no difference between the catholic church ( all its rules and what not) and a modern day cult . 'think for yourself , question authority'

if you havent already read ' the story of b' by daniel quinn , its a very interesting book that throws conventional religion down the drain and explores and explains some very interesting concepts .





just a thought

[howardsmonkey]

I too heard this song and questioned all i had been told to believe. It was such a sad day and now the doubt haunts me. I would be much happier being a minless drone but i found tool and now i'm open to anything.

[J1516]

You seem to be looking at a negative side of this song then. I believe in God and Jesus, and this is one of my favorite songs. To decide not to believe in something for the idea of being an individual isn't going to make you an individual, it will make you just like everyone else. If you really believe there's no god then that's great. I truely believe in some god, but this song sounds like a rejection of other teachings that control your deepest spiritual beliefs. It's a farewell to control. It's not so much a rebellion as much as a revolution. Many people believe that the comming revolutions will not have blood or violence or hate, but a change in our minds (like in Revolution1). This isn't so much about god or the church as liberation of your mind. On a more personal level it's the struggles we take part in to become the fully developed individuals we are today.
But that's just my opinion, I could be really stupid.

[dope beastie]

Originally posted by J1516
But that's just my opinion, I could be really stupid.

I agree with the latter. Not just stupid...a stupid Christian.

[megadan]

It takes way more guts to admit to being a devoted christian on a Tool message board than it does to insult them, much less actually voice an opinion from a differnt point of view, which is exacly why we are. Kudos, J1516.

[Schwarze Katz]

rickiep00h

I've been looking for my notes and course reader from the class I got my info from, but I can't find the stuff, so I'll relate what I remember studying. If you're interested, do some research/reading of the Gnostic Gospels. These are the other gospels that could have been chosen to be included in the Bible, but were not. Some could not be validated, but many were not chosen because they did not fit the desired sentiments of those in power at the time of the Bible's composition. The best known gnostic gospel is the Gospel of Thomas, also known as the Sayings Gospel, which is really just a list of quotes and parables people attributed to Jesus (some of which did not fit the early message). Elaine Pagels is an excellent scholar on biblical issues, and she has written about the Gnostic Gospels. I haven't read that work, but I read her book Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, which is about interpreting the origin stories. All works on any of the gospels should also enumerate the estimated amount of time the gospel was spread by word of mouth before being written down. The gospel of John is the most recently written, being written somewhere between 80 and 120 years after the estimated death of Jesus. One of the peoples responsible for spreading the gospels was a hippie-like group that is believed to have added many of the 'turn your cheek' and 'love eachother as yourself' type of messages.

There are also books that look at the New Testament in more depth, pulling from the letters of the apostles evidence that women held roles of power in the developing church, a rivalry for power between Peter and Paul, and other interesting insights/ideas.

As a final suggestion, if you have direct questions, I'd suggest looking up some contact info for the religious department professors at the nearest state university.

None of this is meant or studied to be evidence against the divinity of Jesus, and in fact, most religious scholars are also the most faithful in their beliefs. I believe that is because they think about it on their own. Anything you look into above may confirm and solidify your faith just as it could give evidence to doubtful suspicions.

I also suggest reading of Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations with God. I think this book gives the most effective redirection of any religious faith. If you think about the generals of your belief first, you may realize that you don't have to believe in anything, only be the kind of person you want to be, and be fulfilled in life (that was cheesy as hell, but I think it's true).

J1516

Speaking out was brave, and I'm sorry that someone above didn't see fit enough to read beyond the second line of your post. By no means did I submit this thread to bash Christians. I was only expressing the freedom from past restrictive beliefs this song makes me feel.