The grudge/Thomas a link?

[intoxic8]

a while ago i posted this in a forum about the grudge:
"saturn was the titan, Chronos in greek mythology, he ate his children because it was fortold that one of his children would overthrow him and the titans. his son Zeus was hidden by his mother and came back to kill his father free his brothers and children, and overthrow the titans.

Saturn comes back around... lifts you up like a child

the one the ten ... the Alpha and omega?

could the grudge be one with god ?"


today i was listening to the APc song Thomas,.and for the first time i realised that it reminds me of the Grudge.

(i know that this site is meant for opinions on tool lyrics but since i think these two songs are thematically linked i think i'm allowed to sat this)

in the song thomas, the singer is asking, or he seems to be begging for someone to teach him how to forgive them. he holds a GRUDGE against this person, and feels like he cannot forgive him/her. (the bible teaches us to forgive even our enemies. Jesus wanted us to forgive our enemies and not hold grudges) Maynard aparently cannot forgive his enemy, no matter how much he tries.
whatever the 'enemy' has done was so evil that maynard is in some misery and cannot forgive.

who did this to him? and what in fact did he do?

(what fpollows is an interpretation and is completely subjective)

growing up in a christian household and society ideologies and rules are forced upon us, we r thought to believe and follow blindly. when like Thomas (the disciple in the bible who doesnt believe that jesus resurrected because he didnt see him with his own eyes) questioned these beliefs and rules, we came out the other side and realised that much of it wasn't true, and at the time immediatley after this realisation we come to hate and despise any thought of this corrupt and forceful god. we bear this Grudge.

as we grow we realize that iot is not god that did these things. God cannot be corrupt. it is the christian thelogians, the politicans, the noblemen that are/were corrupt. they fucked up everything. but still we bear this grudge.

there are many other faces to the grudge. its such a complicated song i will not try and interpret all of it. but this is one aspect i feel stongly about. the grudge is with GOD. IMO.
i know it might seem like an overinterpretation, but i tink the whole point is to over interpret and not simplfy the songs, other wise e get nothing out of it.

id like to hear any1s opnion even if its completely different from mine, maybe i missing somehthing masssive

[bluefire]

I think that the grudge is written in a fairly vague way; it was meant for the listener to remove all grudges from their lives as they are what truely bring us down. Could it be about god? Absolutely. It could also be about any other thing that is holding you down in life. I think this song serves to help "cleanse" the listener in order to prepare them for the spiritual journey that is Lateralus.

As far as this being related to Thomas. Well they were written by the same person in about the same time frame, so its likely. They seem to be of the same "vein", so its likely. Once again the lyrics in both are fairly vague, and the source of the feelings is not defined, so it is open to your interpretation.

Probably not the answer you were looking for directly, but Tool writes ALL their songs vaguely. There are no definant answers, as Tool tends to focus more on the feelings and universal meanings of things, and not to get bogged down in details.

[intoxic8]

no that was a brilliant answer!

i always thought of the whole Lateralu album being about growth, cleansing and healing. (except maybe Ticks and leeches).
and yes i definately agree that the song is very open and it can have loads of interpretations.

there seem to be many astrological references also. and i'm sure the song has somethign to do with the works of crowley,
but i dont know enough bout these things, but it is good that this song can be interpretted on many different levels.

[Navid]

Just briefly, I'd like to point out that Ticks and Leeches does tie in with the rest of the album. It could be seen as a pivotal point in growth, in which anger is used to purge oneself and sever a connection that was detrimental. Without this severence, the contemplation, reflection and growth might not be possible.

[spiralout11235]

Those are interesting thoughts on The Grudge and how it relates to Thomas. I think there could very well be a connection.

Navid, I had always wondered why Ticks and Leeches was on Lateralus, because it seemed to interrupt the conceptual ideas of the album and didn't seem to serve any sort of relevance to the rest of the album. You've made an interesting point, and now I'm reconsidering what I thought of it. But it could just as well be an irrelevant track that they slapped on there.

[weak&weary]

as we grow we realize that iot is not god that did these things. God cannot be corrupt. it is the christian thelogians, the politicans, the noblemen that are/were corrupt. they fucked up everything. but still we bear this grudge.
This is something I myself have wondered about this song, though I had not seen the thematic connection to Thomas. In my intial purchase and listen of the entire album, I found my interpretation drifting toward your "grudge toward God" idea, and also that many of the album tracks are very applicable to veiws of God: The Grudge pointing out (as you have said) that God is not the one to blame for the failures of religion; the Patient perhaps saying that the ideals of love and service conveyed by God in the Bible would be difficult but ultimately rewarding; Schism trying to mend one's personal relationship with God; etc.

A great interpretation on your part. Thank you for sharing.