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Simpson
02-05-2003, 12:29 PM
This is a paper I wrote for my Writing course last semester about this song. It's kinda long, but it explains what I think the song is about well:

The ideas in the song “The Grudge” by the band Tool revolve around the mythical character of Saturn, the one-time ruler of the universe. According to Greek myth, Saturn, also known as Cronos, overthrows his father, Uranus, in order to become the ultimate ruler of the Universe. This betrayal demonstrates an ultimate form of greed and hunger for power, one that overshadows the bond of family and loyalty. Because of his own actions, Saturn does not trust his own children. As a result of this paranoia, he devours his children immediately after birth to eradicate the possibility of one of them stealing his crown. Zeus, one of his children, finally escapes this fate and ultimately overthrows his father, becoming the new ruler of the Universe.
In the song, Saturn symbolizes the desire for power, or greed. The first two verses essentially set forth the idea of the grudge, a requirement for a dictatorial rule. The grudge represents the set of ideas of the ruler, and the ruler must hold onto these ideas until the end or he will contradict and invalidate himself. The ruler traps himself in his own ideas, so that he must stand by them or he cannot escape. The idea of Saturn becomes the willpower to hold onto this grudge and the refusal to let it go under any circumstance. Maynard, the lyricist for Tool, first mentions Saturn in the song in a short section after the first two verses: “Saturn ascends, choose one or ten/Hang on or be, humbled again”. The idea of Saturn enters into the life of a person, and gives them the choice between one and ten, one being a regular life, and ten being the possibility for great power. By choosing one, the chooser changes nothing, but by choosing ten, the chooser will eventually be humbled by some greater force tempted by the same need for power, as inevitably happens to all ruling forces. The one who chooses ten will never give in because of the desire for power, so he cannot avoid the humbling process at some point. Maynard builds upon these ideas by comparing the idea of Saturn with the requirements for ruling in the next stanza:
Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes
down
Justify denials and grip them to the lonesome end
Saturn ascends, comes round again
Saturn ascends, the one the ten, ignorant to the
damage done.
The first two lines echo the first two lines from the second verse: the ideas of a ruler hold his domain together, as a cornerstone holds a wall together. Without these, each will fall apart. The ruler must justify and hold onto his rules in order to avoid the contradiction and disaster of change in his opinion. Saturn uses these ideas after ascending to the throne and defeating his father, and he comes around again because the idea of Saturn recurs throughout history in rulers: people want power, and people fight for power. Saturn, ignorant to the knowledge of what could have been if he had not defeated his father and devoured his children, sacrifices the idea of family and all hope for future children and the continuation of his bloodline until Zeus escapes.
The grudge and great power do come with certain side-effects. Maynard repeats a shortened version of the first verse, which focuses upon the characteristics of a ruler:
Wear the grudge like a crown
Desperate to control
Unable to forgive
And we’re sinking deeper
The ruler must wear his desire for power on the outside, like a crown, and this drive for control must be strong enough to establish him as a ruler. In the first verse, the ruler cannot forgive his “scarlet lettermen”, a reference to Nathaniel Hawthorne’s The Scarlet Letter, in which a council forces people to wear symbols of their sins over their clothes, a physical representation of their shortcomings. In the song, the scarlet lettermen represent the people that the ruler holds a grudge against and refuses to forgive, possibly even forcing the person to maintain a physical representation of their sins. In the final line, Maynard references the price of power: addiction. With power comes the desire for more power, as it does with Saturn. Throughout this whole verse, the drums intensify as the addiction to power grows.
This verse builds into a segment in which Maynard sings single words instead of lines, and the drums even out. Each line has a depth of meanings, in regard to the governed people, the ruler, and the grudge itself: “Defining/ Confining/ Sinking deeper/ Controlling/ Defining/ And we’re sinking deeper” (23-28). The grudge defines the ruler’s actions, confines the ruler to a set array of actions and, in doing this, controls the ruler. As time goes on, the grudge sinks deeper into the ruler’s mind until he cannot control it. At the same time, the ruler defines the rules, confines the people by the rules, and controls these people. The ruler sinks deeper into the addiction of power as time goes on, until the humbling experience at the end becomes the only mode of escape. The concept of the grudge sinking deeper repeats because it becomes ingrained in the minds of a society, and the longer that a ruler reigns, the harder it becomes to humble him.
The next two verses tie the idea of the song together. The words themselves relate back to the choice a person has in whether or not to become a ruler:
Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Lets you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.
Saturn returns in myth form and shows each person the attributes to gaining power, the rise and fall, and the negative requirements for keeping power. The receiver of this knowledge decides whether or not to pay attention to the negative attributes, which can easily be ignored if the thirst for power drives this person enough. If the person does not see these negative attributes, the hunger for power will destroy them, but the person who does see these negatives and denies them will be raised to a higher state of self-satisfaction and awareness. This person will be spit out like an innocent child, transformed into a state if awareness in which both the pains of worldly awareness and the joys of childhood become one. This stanza then repeats in a shorter form, with the following added onto the end, relating to Saturn consuming the ruler: “Consume you till you/Choose to let this go”. At this point the song mellows and goes into an instrumental segment. This signifies the choice: a person can either choose to let the grudge go, or can choose to have Saturn consume them. Ironically, Saturn consumes his children in the myth, and symbolically the hunger for power feeds upon the innocent, the people who never had a need for power before. The greed consumes the innocent as the greed in Saturn’s bloodline consumes his own children.
The song calls for people to ignore this lust for power and reach a higher state. Maynard states this idea in the final lines of the song:
Give away the stone
Let the oceans take and transmutate
This cold and fated anchor
Give away the stone
Let the waters kiss and transmutate
These leaden grudges into gold.
The anchor represents the grudge, and Maynard describes it as cold and fated, because the hunger for power consumes the warmth of human emotion and it ultimately leads to a fate of destruction. He wants the oceans, which change rocks and shipwrecks by flowing around them, to change the stone of temptation into something beautiful. He wants the experience of swimming in the waters of temptation to transform the desire for power into a rich substance, such as gold. These can all occur if a person does not choose to follow the path of power but follows a path towards self-satisfaction instead. A final and emotional scream leads into the final, repeated message of the song: “Let go” (46). Maynard calls the world to abandon the desire for power and to simply live. In a world in which many people base their survival upon power and material success, this message has a huge depth in meaning. The search for life and internal fulfillment brings greater rewards than the search for external satisfaction.

Hogpile
02-07-2003, 09:41 AM
Also, Saturn is thought to be made up of mass quantities of lead. In the occult, lead represents death, and Saturn is a deadly symbol. Thus the verse at the end of the song "turn these leaden grudges into gold" In other words bitterness is fatal to your growth as a person.

Bannockburn
03-01-2003, 11:02 AM
The ideas in the song “The Grudge” by the band Tool revolve around the mythical character of Saturn, the one-time ruler of the universe. According to Greek myth, Saturn, also known as Cronos, overthrows his father, Uranus, in order to become the ultimate ruler of the Universe.

I also had this idea. However, the mythology that you have told is incorrect to say the least. Saturn as you said was the ‘one’ time ruler of the universe. You then proceeded to use Greek myth. This was your first mistake. Saturn was not the Greeks lord of the universe; Zeus was. Saturn is the Roman figure of Zeus. So in turn, ‘one time ruler’ is also incorrect due to that the actual qualities of Zeus living two life times; that of the Greek age, and that of the Roman age.

You’re second mistake is that since Saturn (roman), Zeus (Greek) is not Kronus, or Cronos (depends of language of Greek/Latin) Kronus is actually the father of Zeus and at the time Lord of the Titans in the Golden age (according to Hesiod) who actually castrated his father Uranus, thus having Kronus become the new sky god. You have three genealogies mixed into one. Uranus(1) was the first sky god, who was overthrown my Kronus(2), then who was overthrown by Zeus.

This betrayal demonstrates an ultimate form of greed and hunger for power,

This ‘betrayal’ as you call it was two fold. Uranus was forcing his children back in Gaia who was trying to give birth. Thus Gaia then asked her son Kronus to castrate his father. Thus, when Kronus became ruler of the sky he ate his children (perhaps this is your hunger?) However, As you say Zeus did escape through his mother Rhea made Kronus swollow a stone in which Kronus though it was Zeus.

I can go on, but you made a big mistake in Saturn and Zeus. Also, even though I like your idea, your mythology background is lacking. Don’t take this as an insult. Also, Zeus didn’t overthrow Kronus for power, it was more on the lines to stop the corruption and anarchy of Kronus’ rule.

Sinagast
03-01-2003, 01:11 PM
Bannockburn, I'm not trying to be an ass, but in your attempt to correct Simpson, you made several errors. First Zeus' Roman name is Jupiter, not Saturn. Saturn IS the Roman name for Zeus' father Cronos. So Saturn was the one time ruler of the universe. The order goes Uranus then Cronos then Zeus. You're right in the fact that Zeus did revolt against Cronos not to take power but to save himself and his siblings, but the Roman equivalent of that story would be Jupiter rebelling against Saturn.

Smoky Mac Daddy
03-09-2003, 02:36 PM
that whole leaders thing just gave me an idea

in european history, the german people always thought of themselves as "better" than the other european races, always going back on german nationalism and german pride and all that. the jews have always been the scapegoats in europe since the dawn of time (almost) so you cross the most proud race with the most frowned upon race, and you get trouble. the treaty of versailles after world war one left the german people fuming for being blamed 100% for the war, so that left the path open for some opportunistic cock cough*hitler* to pave the way preaching all this german pride and bad on the jews. this grudge the germans always had against everyone, just getting their own state a generation earlier, and now their country is in shambles and in massive debt, compounding all of this the great depression sweeping europe and america, and also the grudge everyone has on the many merchants who happened to be jewish and were accused of "hoarding all the money" so this grudge that everyone had left the way open for a new saturn figure to come to power, overthrowing the weak Weimar Republic much how saturn overthrew uranus

frankzeppelin
03-21-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Bannockburn

Thus, when Kronus became ruler of the sky he ate his children (perhaps this is your hunger?) However, As you say Zeus did escape through his mother Rhea made Kronus swollow a stone in which Kronus though it was Zeus.


Does anyone know any more about the eating the stone aspect of the song, cause that seems critical.

"Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent."

The children "light and innocent" would fit well with the classical mythology interpretation. Zues/Jupiter's siblings being vomited from Saturn, spit out pure. But then what's all that about Saturn coming around to "show you everything"? Is there some myth about Saturn lamenting over his wrongs? Or enlightening others to avoid his same mistakes. Otherwise it seems like a stretch.

Also, what's all that about Saturn ascending? I searched the internet for info on this and all I found were astrology sites where I couldn't decifer anything remoted related to any of this. If you know alot about astrology you could write in and explain what the planet positions and such mean, and if it relates to the song.

Feebs
04-03-2003, 05:04 AM
If you know alot about astrology you could write in and explain what the planet positions and such mean, and if it relates to the song. [/B][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't call myself an expert in astrology by any means, but I had a bit of a search a couple of months ago wondering about the Saturn thing.
I found out that Saturn's a pretty influencial planet in the scheme of things. Apparently Saturn only passes through your aspect (I think it's called your aspect) only once in your life, as it has a slow orbit. This time is on average, the age when most people hit mid life crisis, 40's.
This causes lots of upheaval, Saturn is known as a challenge. It brings strife and struggle into your life, major issues that challenge who you are, and usually has a cathartic effect as a result. The main thing about your experience with Saturn is that it is humbling.
By now the links with all the mythology discussed earlier are pretty obvious, and I'd be surprised if it was the astrology Maynard was really getting at. You never know, those star sign descriptions fit me to a tee.
Anyway, what I've said here is extremely clumsy, and of course has far more to it, so if you have some spare time, it's pretty interesting to read up on. Astrology's obviously a dime a dozen on the net.
If there's any true astrology knowledgable people out there, please let us know more about this mysterious planet...