MDMA and 46&2

[Jack Handy]

For anyone who has done ectstasy or is going to, this is one of the best songs to listen to while on it. It may just be the music though. The song is very easy to connect to and that is what the drug is about. i suggest giving it a try. it may just bring you to tears. also try all the other TOOL songs.

[paraflux]

yeah lets all take something that takes your spinal cord and fucks it all up, twisting it into a misshapen useless mass.

[Jack Handy]

Originally posted by paraflux
yeah lets all take something that takes your spinal cord and fucks it all up, twisting it into a misshapen useless mass.

I didnt say do it a lot, once is more than enough

[crow011]

Originally posted by paraflux
yeah lets all take something that takes your spinal cord and fucks it all up, twisting it into a misshapen useless mass.

oh no . . .

the government has gotten to him . . .

fuck wit . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

[Embryo]

Originally posted by paraflux
yeah lets all take something that takes your spinal cord and fucks it all up, twisting it into a misshapen useless mass.

yeah, uhh, nothing like that at all happens when you take ecstasy. or acid, or any of the other drugs that lie is perpetuated about.

[Andy]

Originally posted by paraflux
yeah lets all take something that takes your spinal cord and fucks it all up, twisting it into a misshapen useless mass.


Yeah it does have the potential to screw you up, like all drugs do....but thats if you overdo it: i'm talking about double or triple dumping regularly for several years.

One of my friends is actually an ecstacy dealer, so you can imagine how often she uses it along with harder drugs like Coke and Ketamine, and she has no physical or mental symptoms of drug use (atleast ones that i've seen).

But yeah I agree it is actually a good drug to listen to Tool with, however not as good as acid or mushies though. ;)

-Andy

[Heroin]

Originally posted by Jack Handy
I didnt say do it a lot, once is more than enough

damn that....eat like a 10 pack through the course of 5 hours and listen to all there albums

[dawn]

i haven't the need for psycadellic drugs when it comes to tools music. i find it beautiful in any mood.

However;i did spend 4 hours in the dark on 3 hits of vit.A with my cat and aenima

Good times...Good times

[paraflux]

Acid has nothing to do with ecstacy. The government has nothing to do with MDMA fucking up your spinal cord. My point is, if you know something is bad for you in the long run, why do it at all? It WILL affect you after one dose, maybe not so you notice right away, but cmon. Use your hedz. As a part of the rave scene back in the mid 90's, I can say that the stuff is useless. In my opinion...

[stillclover]

i agree. ecstasy is a completely useless drug. drugs are not needed. i can see the use of lsd {and a few more natural psychedelics} as an eye opener to loosen the grip on an entrenched reality, but that is all it should be. a physical way to open spiritual channels. eventually it would not be needed at all to find such "religious" or enlightening experiences. it is a gift. its within. they have their time and place, but they arent the end result, they are a glimpse, using an outside source, you eventually have to come down, acid at least leaves you with some profound experience. ecstacy is horrible. all it did was stick me down further into the ground. at least i learned something. it should be education, not escape.

[philosophomore]

Acid has nothing to do with ecstacy. The government has nothing to do with MDMA fucking up your spinal cord. My point is, if you know something is bad for you in the long run, why do it at all? It WILL affect you after one dose, maybe not so you notice right away, but cmon. Use your hedz. As a part of the rave scene back in the mid 90's, I can say that the stuff is useless. In my opinion...



I have been doing some research here and there in pharmocology for a few years now and this is something that completely surprised me as I consider myself extremely familiar with mdma. (research-wise; I have only used it 24 times) From what I know of the neuropharmocological processes involved with the use of this chemical, it seemed rather preposterous, but my curiosity was piqued; so I did a little bit of searching around and found that erowid.org (an inestimably valuable drug information site) listed this urban legend as the number 1 most common rumor going around about MDMA.

"Rumor Number One: MDMA drains your spinal fluid, ruins your back, etc.
This urban legend apparently started because some pharmacological studies are done by giving subjects MDMA, then withdrawing cerebrospinal fluid samples for analysis via spinal tap. It is "MDMA Research", not "MDMA" that may drain your spinal fluid."


As to this drug being totally worthless, I would have to emphatically disagree. My first MDMA experience really changed my life in a positive direction. The details of this are really too long for this post so I won't elaborate a whole lot, but suffice it to say, I was a changed person the next day. I regard this night as the very best time in my entire life. (I'm 23)

I realize that Paraflux only said something he thought was true out of care and concern, so there's no point in flaming the guy for having bad information, but one of the frustrating and dangerous things about anti-drug propaganda (think of the "Ecstacy: The Kiss of DEATH" commercials last year) is that as soon as some uninformed kid talks to his friends that have used X and had a bitchin' time with apparently no ill effects, he is not going to ever believe any future warnings about drugs. It is going to be a LONG fucking time before parents, teachers, doctors, cops, and especially government officials have any credibility with drug users again. This is a real problem because there are inherent dangers with every psychoactive alkaloid known to mankind. There are also precautions that can be taken to minimize potential harm. (there is NOTHING in life that can guarantee anything except minimized potential harm) One of our biggest problems in society is that we have this collective idea about "good" and "bad" drugs. Issues regarding drugs are very comblex and their exact actions in the brain are only beginning to be understood. Oversimplified conceptions of drugs are dangerous! The legal status of these substaces has always been a matter of politics, not science. Alcohol and tobacco each result in more deaths annually than all other licit and illicit drugs combined. Few people really understand that all psychoactive substances have the potential to yield positive and detrimental effects and that this potential has absolutely nothing to do with the
chemical composition of the drug and absolutely everything to do with the manner in which they are used, and the psychological structure of the user.

The real dangers of MDMA have to do with the controversy over whether it is neurotoxic to humans. There is a lot of politicized research out there, so watch out. All of the studies that produce marked serotonergic and dopaminergic neural injury in lab animals, involve MASSIVE (5-10mg/kg) consecutive doses, and it should be noted that in all animal studies, Even ones with serotonin system reductions up to 90%, no behavioral deficits have been observed. (This is mainly because we still don't know exactly what different neurotransmitters DO; a rat can't tell you if it is suffering from a mood disorder)

Basically, until the government allows research to be done in humans, you are on your own, so to speak.

Some caveats:

-Street drugs are a crapshoot at best. This is why it is preferable to use natural drugs, not because they are somehow better than synthetic drugs. If you take MDMA, consider ordering a pill testing kit from ecstacy.org or somewhere else.

-There is research to suggest that reasonable doses of MDMA (75-100mg) do not cause any permanant neurological changes when given AT LEAST two weeks in between uses.

-The worst thing I can imagine is some young kid reading this and getting the idea that MDMA is a safe drug under any circumstances. There is way too much information that you need to know if you use drugs than I could ever go into here( don't be intimidated though, you don't need to have a degree to understand the real dangers), so for anyone at all interested in this subject I would HIGHLY recommend these sites. For general drug info: erowid.org For research info: maps.org (Multi-Disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies)
INFORM YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- I have never used MDMA at a rave setting (though I hear it's fun). When I take X, I take it with an intimate group of friends, or my wife, and talk and play for hours, Since I am more interested in the psychological and therapeutic aspects of the experience. It has helped me overcome my former extreme introversion, a misanthropy towards ignorant people, homophobia, and a rather cynical world view. I concede that I could have had these breakthroughs with therapy, but I will lay credit where credit is due. As had been said before, the drugs are teachers, not the end in and of themselves. One thing to bear in mind is that you only get out of the drug experience what you put into it; the otherworld from which you seek illumination is, after all, your own mind. (i.e. intelligent people have a lot more to gain from a sensible informed use an entheogen (greek for "generating the spirit within") than some dumbass that just wants to feel nice)

Be careful out there, I love you all,
Eric, A Wiseman (cool name huh?)

I would welcome any positive or negative responses to this post.

[Sisyphos]

philosophomore,

I see where you are coming from, and I certainly support the idea of gaining more from drugs than just having a good time - it's certainly about self-exploration and new perspectives.

Yet, I consider MDMA one of the most dangerous drugs around (apart from the nearly not existing addiction potential, there are of course substances that are far more mighty) - there may be no evidence that MDMA is neurotoxic, but it is quite likely.

There are also signs that MDMA can be linked to decreased cognitive abilities, and behaviour - in humans, not in test lab animals. However, this information is vague, since there is few data collected. We now little about the neurotoxic dangers invovled with the consumption of MDMA, but there are indicators that suggest negative long-term effects.

It is up to everyone to decide whether to take the risk or not - I must say that the possible effects outweigh the good experiences. By the way, here's a good article on the neurotoxicity of MDMA (though discussed controversial). Since it's on Erowid, you might already know it: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml#humans

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish that you suffer from negative results at all, and I'm glad that you had life-changing experiences. But MDMA is a drug full of risks. Good luck on your way!

[philosophomore]

Sisyphos,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I appreciate that you acknowledged my points of view while maintaining your own. As Joseph Joubert said, "the aim of argument, or of discussion should not be victory, but Progress." Our culture seems ignorant of this point. It is refreshing to engage in some informed debate.

Unfortunately, as my luck would have it, my home computer is currently out of commission; and although I have a number of things to discuss, the only time I can get online is at work, and the Erowid site is apparently restricted here. (Go figure:-) Anyway, I would like the opportunity to examine the article you referenced before I respond. God knows how long that will take. Thank you for your patience.

[Sisyphos]

Thank you, I also appreciate a debate going a non-aggressive way. As for the computer problems, I'll just have to wait and keep checking the thread for new info when I'm online again.

[Luna Galapogos]

For anyone who has done ectstasy or is going to, this is one of the best songs to listen to while on it. It may just be the music though. The song is very easy to connect to and that is what the drug is about. i suggest giving it a try. it may just bring you to tears. also try all the other TOOL songs.

Not that I disagree with people doing drugs in any way because I know that it is your choice as an individual to do as you please. But in the case of ecstasy at least, I know that it releases happy hormones, (I don't know their scientific name), and everyone has only a certain number of these hormones starting from day one. So when you take ecstasy, you are letting massive amounts of these hormones go at once which is a nice experience while it lasts, but in the long run, when your happy hormones are gone, it will not work and you will be in constant depressed state until the day you die. I personally do not agree with this drug, mainly for this reason, but like I said before, it is you decision as an individual to do as you please to yourself. Also, I believe that Tool's music is very informative in of itself if you just open your mind to the words. It is like reading the bible, every time you listen to it you learn something/discover something completely new.

Anyway, whatever your decision, just make sure that it is the best one that you feel you can make, so that you can better yourself as an individual.

[adrenaline7]

I might be crazy or have a vivid imagination, but I don't need to take any type of drug to try and apprieciate or experience what others may in a normal state of mind. And I believe that if you need drugs in order to do that, you might need to consider opening your mind a little more. Also, it is common sense that all drugs can lead to harm or even harm you in one way or another, whether it be physical or psychological, if used in excess.

[philosophomore]

blahblahblah

[philosophomore]

Sisyphos, I finally got the chance to examine the article that you pointed out and I have to say that it does an excellent job of showing the state of current MDMA neurotoxicity research, and it was fairly honest in pointing out that no research to date has conclusively proven anything at all. I will admit that a lot of the research out there that receives much attention does indeed sound scary at first (or tenth) glance. But I believe that in order to really understand the issue in question it is necessary to put everything into context.


So much of this issue is clouded by politics that are not noticeable at first glance. For example, if you are a drug researcher and plan to study the harmful effects of MDMA you will find virtually unlimited funding and approval from governmental agencies, but try to research a drug like MDMA for any sort of beneficial use and not only do you run into beaurocratic red tape like a brick wall, but you are pretty much going to be funding your own research. Not to mention that choosing to do these kind of studies as a scientist in our culture is pretty much the equivalent of career suicide. There are precious few individuals in this position with the reserve of perseverence and courage that it takes to stand in the face of this kind of opposition.


Quite a number of government-funded studies have failed to find any sort of damning evidence about MDMA, but the researchers have found their results denied any sort of publication in major medical journals. If you want more info clarifying some of the information that you guys have probably have heard regarding MDMA, I suggest that you take a gander at these two links.

this erowid vault has a nice summary and excellent links (www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity3.shtml)

this link from the erowid vault has an extensive but readable summary of MDMA research (www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n763/a07.html)


A study to note that was done by perhaps the leading anti-MDMA researcher, George Ricaurte (study conducted at Johns Hopkins Medical Univ. and funded by NIDA [national institute on drug abuse]) a couple of years ago found no morphological brain changes after administering (non-human) primates 2.5mg/kg(injected) doses of MDMA every two weeks for 4 months. To put this in perspective, the average street dose of MDMA is supposed to be between 1.6 and 2.4 mg/kg. The average pill on the street contains aproximately 75-150mg MDMA, and if you figure I take a dose of 100mg [which is probably a conservative estimate; I doubt that I even get pills in the 75mg range living in Indiana], that works out to 1.16 mg/kg for myself. I weigh 86kg [divide weight in pounds by 2.2 to get kg] Also, take note that I am taking the pill orally rather than intravenously[which bypasses all of your body's defense systems]. Ricaurte subsequently changed his research methodology until he was producing studies that were more to NIDA's liking.

[philosophomore]

there may be no evidence that MDMA is neurotoxic, but it is quite likely.

There are also signs that MDMA can be linked to decreased cognitive abilities, and behaviour - in humans, not in test lab animals. However, this information is vague, since there is few data collected. We now little about the neurotoxic dangers invovled with the consumption of MDMA, but there are indicators that suggest negative long-term effects.




After an empirical review of all the available evidence (that I am aware of) for and against the possibility of MDMA's neurotoxicity, I can honestly say that I believe that WITH THE PROPER PRECAUTIONS, MDMA can be safely used by MOST people. (Everyone's genetic makeup is different and some rare individuals for reasons unknown to me have susceptibilities that can render even OTC drugs like acetaminophen or aspirin lethal for them)


The bottom line I guess is that we are still a long way away from understanding the interaction between consciousness and the brain, and all this back and forth political banter among scientists holds about as much Truth as the statements and decrees of the religious leaders of the Middle Ages. I consider my self akin to a pioneer in this regard; I don't have the time to wait for decades to know with 100% certainty that MDMA taken in low doses and infrequently does not permanantly alter the structure of the brain. (Besides, the world's going to end in 2012 didn't you know*:-))

And I would also like to suggest that what is called "brain damage" by some of the animal studies is not NECESSARILY known to be a bad thing. These studies have shown that MDMA overload can decrease the amount of Serotonin and Dopamine in certain parts of the brain, but in these cases it also increases the amounts of those neurotransmitters in other areas, which NO ONE can say for sure is a bad thing because no one knows what changing the structure of the brain DOES for sure. It might sound bad, but so does 'Fat-Free Frozen Yogurt.

[jay-jay]

Stop endorsing ecstasy you fucking idiot, all of you it’s the most fucking lamest drug out for the lamest people it was a late 90’s fad which has just protracted into the drug for the people trying to impress other people “teeny boppers” if you will. Take a long hard look at yourself before you pop the next e, are you really that pathetic? Are your reasons for doing this justified? Would acid be better? Even acid is being used to death (oh the fucking irony, I know) and the users are becoming pathetic but at least acid is classic and has meaning to it, ecstasy on the other hand is what’s cool and is possibly the worst recreational drug out there for you. Yes I’ve done it before and I’m pissed off with all the fuckheads who have made it almost impossible for me to not feel like a fellow fuckwit if I ever take it again.

Please let all your friends know that it’s not cool to take it… And remind them of why it was invented, which means that because they are so fucked up and shallow inside they will probably regret taking it again for fear of what might come out of their mouths about their “true” self.

Yes it’s a hang up and I’m pissed off especially when it’s advertised. Typical.

[crow011]

wow, are you fucking finished? . . .

a drug is a drug - if some people like it, then so be it . . .

yeah, i'll now tell everyone i know not to take it because some fucking idiot on a message board thinks its a bad drug . . .

jesus christ, youre a fucking imbecile . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

[jay-jay]

Haha

No don’t tell them that some idiot on a message board told them not to do it, you’d be simply a fucking idiot to think of saying that, and I’m sorry that you are one of the people mentioned in the last thread.
I’ll go easy on you next time to compensate.
JESUS CHRIST BLESSED BE FUCKING IMBICILE
Are you done? You managed to be just as much of a dick as I possibly could and in record space, congrats, it’s an achievement worth celebrating with another post!

[philosophomore]

Stop endorsing ecstasy you fucking idiot, all of you it’s the most fucking lamest drug out for the lamest people it was a late 90’s fad which has just protracted into the drug for the people trying to impress other people “teeny boppers” if you will. Take a long hard look at yourself before you pop the next e, are you really that pathetic? Are your reasons for doing this justified? Would acid be better? Even acid is being used to death (oh the fucking irony, I know) and the users are becoming pathetic but at least acid is classic and has meaning to it, ecstasy on the other hand is what’s cool and is possibly the worst recreational drug out there for you. Yes I’ve done it before and I’m pissed off with all the fuckheads who have made it almost impossible for me to not feel like a fellow fuckwit if I ever take it again.

Please let all your friends know that it’s not cool to take it… And remind them of why it was invented, which means that because they are so fucked up and shallow inside they will probably regret taking it again for fear of what might come out of their mouths about their “true” self.

Yes it’s a hang up and I’m pissed off especially when it’s advertised. Typical.

I am sorry if you feel that I was advertising the irresponsible use of MDMA, but I believe that I went out of my way to avoid doing just that. Did you read my post where I said "-The worst thing I can imagine is some young kid reading this and getting the idea that MDMA is a safe drug under any circumstances. There is way too much information that you need to know if you use drugs than I could ever go into here( don't be intimidated though, you don't need to have a degree to understand the real dangers), so for anyone at all interested in this subject I would HIGHLY recommend these sites. For general drug info: erowid.org For research info: maps.org (Multi-Disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) " Or did you just see the word "Ecstacy" and start seeing red? Seriously, why all the hostility, man?

I was attempting to start an intelligent debate on this issue, and I can't seem to understand where you are coming from. I took the liberty of checking out some of your other posts to learn more about you, and you seem like an intelligent fellow, despite your penchant for flaming. So what's the deal, guy? If you don't agree with what I've posted, I welcome an explanation why, and I can think of several ways you could have mounted a critical offense against my points (I thought the last paragraph of my last post would be a relatively obvious place to start), but instead you have taken the last resort of an opponent with no argument; namely calling myself and others names, implying that anyone who uses MDMA is doing so solely because they want to impress teenagers, and generally spouting enough empty rhetoric to make everyone who read your post a little bit dumber for it.

This is an issue rather close to my heart and I do tend to take it personally when something that has had an enormously positive impact on my life is slandered by people who make it all too apparent that they have not bothered to learn anything at all about this drug.

By the way, if you do have anything at all intelligent to say about this issue, I would look forward to your response, but please save the immature insults for wherever you attend middle-school.

Sincerely,
"A Fucking Idiot"

PS. Would you care to remind me as to "why MDMA was really invented?" Apparently I am mistaken about it being patented in 1914 as an appetite suppressant by the German Pharmaceutical corporation Merck.*

[Seven Deep]

yeah lets all take something that takes your spinal cord and fucks it all up, twisting it into a misshapen useless mass.



Once again.....another urban legend to debunk

Related Myths
1. Ecstasy drains your spinal fluid.
Status: Untrue
Source: Oprah among others.
Discussion: A total myth. One of the ways of measuring the effects of MDMA is to take measures of serotonin production. Serotonin is produced in your brain, but also in your spinal fluid. Therefore, researchers have measured serotonin levels in spinal fluid, to determine whether MDMA usage was affecting them. See for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...9&dopt=Abstract
Ecstasy does not actually drain your spinal fluid.

See also Erowid’s MDMA FAQ: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_faq2.shtml

The second misapprehension concerned the fact that MDMA causes some sort of drainage of spinal fluid. This misconception somehow resulted from a misunderstanding of research into the effects of MDMA on levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin, which are accessed through spinal taps. It's the spinal taps that drain the fluid, NOT the MDMA.

It’s also possible that the myth spread because ecstasy users, having danced all night, woke up with sore backs, and the story went around that this was due to spinal fluid loss. Of course, it was just backache from overexertion.



taken from bluelight.nu MDMA essential guide

[url=http://www.bluelight.nu/vb/showthread.php?threadid=79027&r=22[/url]

[philosophomore]

Thanks 7deep, you are correct, but I happened to have already addressed what you said in my earlier post in this thread.

[Seven Deep]

Getting back on track.....it took me a while before I could actually listen to Tool at all after I'd taken some E. As great as the rush is......it definitely isnt conducive to long, attentive listening.
Tool would even sometimes counteract the high and sort of bring me down. Now I find that songs like 46and2, Aenema, and The Grudge actually suck you in even further than they normally do, definitely a good thing.

And just my two cents......if you don't like taking drugs....

DONT FUCKING POST IN A DRUG RELATED THREAD

Just because you've decided it's not for you, doesn't mean that extends to everyone else.


thanks for coming out.

[philosophomore]

Getting back on track.....it took me a while before I could actually listen to Tool at all after I'd taken some E. As great as the rush is......it definitely isnt conducive to long, attentive listening.

Agreed, it's nice as background music, but I was always to busy talking to pay attention much.


DONT FUCKING POST IN A DRUG RELATED THREAD

Just because you've decided it's not for you, doesn't mean that extends to everyone else.


thanks for coming out.

Yep...

[jay-jay]

I am sorry if you feel that I was advertising the irresponsible use of MDMA, but I believe that I went out of my way to avoid doing just that. Did you read my post where I said "-The worst thing I can imagine is some young kid reading this and getting the idea that MDMA is a safe drug under any circumstances. There is way too much information that you need to know if you use drugs than I could ever go into here( don't be intimidated though, you don't need to have a degree to understand the real dangers), so for anyone at all interested in this subject I would HIGHLY recommend these sites. For general drug info: erowid.org For research info: maps.org (Multi-Disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) " Or did you just see the word "Ecstacy" and start seeing red? Seriously, why all the hostility, man?

I was attempting to start an intelligent debate on this issue, and I can't seem to understand where you are coming from. I took the liberty of checking out some of your other posts to learn more about you, and you seem like an intelligent fellow, despite your penchant for flaming. So what's the deal, guy? If you don't agree with what I've posted, I welcome an explanation why, and I can think of several ways you could have mounted a critical offense against my points (I thought the last paragraph of my last post would be a relatively obvious place to start), but instead you have taken the last resort of an opponent with no argument; namely calling myself and others names, implying that anyone who uses MDMA is doing so solely because they want to impress teenagers, and generally spouting enough empty rhetoric to make everyone who read your post a little bit dumber for it.

This is an issue rather close to my heart and I do tend to take it personally when something that has had an enormously positive impact on my life is slandered by people who make it all too apparent that they have not bothered to learn anything at all about this drug.

By the way, if you do have anything at all intelligent to say about this issue, I would look forward to your response, but please save the immature insults for wherever you attend middle-school.

Sincerely,
"A Fucking Idiot"

PS. Would you care to remind me as to "why MDMA was really invented?" Apparently I am mistaken about it being patented in 1914 as an appetite suppressant by the German Pharmaceutical corporation Merck.*

Ok, lets start off by me admitting, my comments were out of line, well the abuse. I’ve taken ecstasy before, only a few times. But I’ve not a grudge on the drug, it’s the common user that irks me beyond words, profanity is usually a way to express it.

I’ve watched so many people turn a thing such as ecstasy into something pathetic and degrading to me. And I highlight the me because the common person doesn’t think about it from my perspective. It’s such a shame that it’s become pop culture to be a drug user and the majority of people I know and know of using it (including people I talk to on the internet) are using it for an image to say the least. They’ve formed an opinion that it’s totally like cool to do, dealers are stepping it even more taking advantage of it, which means people who are going to take some for means other than an image and to come online and let everyone know about it.

The drug has lost its integrity because of many people. And so have many other things but ecstasy in particular, it annoys me. You may notice how back in undertow opiate days, you listened to tool and thought “Yeah wicked shit” and it meant something to you as the 13 year olds weren’t running around talking about maynard. Something ruined because of majority. It happens. Get over it. I should. But it still shits me up the friggen wall.

Do you see where I’m coming from, probably the thing that sent me off is my ex girlfriend becoming a user because she wants that, oh so cool, image of telling people she’s off her brain, and regrettably it’s my fault for telling her not to do it, for health reasons. So I’m sitting here marinating in contempt about it (I’ll admit it) then I read some post insinuating ecstasy is the go! Woohoo everyone use eccys!!! Or that’s what it came across as.

I wasn’t ripping on you and I’m not sure where you got that from unless you began the thread under another name, I never even read your post. And judging by your last post you are not a “fucking idiot” so don’t think I sent that one your way.

I’ve learned that MDMA was used originally for psychoanalysis purposes to make the patient open up and reveal parts of the collective unconscious where there would otherwise be “resistance”. People started abusing it though, and that’s how it got reformed into a higher dose and a lost more additional shit. And I do know about the additional shit because I’ve been to labs, one where the guy offered me one tray and said “this is what we use, if you want to live past 30 you’ll use this too”. Then the two guys went on to show me the remaining process and that’s where it gets nasty.

Some people with a few more braincells than the one before them say “why would manufacturers put harmful substances and not just sugar/bicarb blahdeblahdeblah??” and this is because harmful agents have this knack for MDMA cohesion and people don’t believe they are buying an ecstasy tablet if it tastes like an m&m.

Thanks for the wake up, however I don’t retract the other abusive one… Take care.

[jay-jay]

Oh and I respect the amiable response you decided to take rather than working me up again.

And I have bothered to learn about the drug, I am well aware… Almost too aware.

[philosophomore]

"Some people with a few more braincells than the one before them say “why would manufacturers put harmful substances and not just sugar/bicarb blahdeblahdeblah??” and this is because harmful agents have this knack for MDMA cohesion and people don’t believe they are buying an ecstasy tablet if it tastes like an m&m. " --JayJay

That's something I had not heard about before, I wonder how widespread the practice is; do you have any idea what the adulturants were composed of? (so I could research this?)

[philosophomore]

Thank you for responding, no hard feelings here- I just think argument should be more about 'progress' than 'victory'. Incidentally, I thought you were talking to me directly because your post did not quote anyone and it directly followed my long series of posts about MDMA.

I definitely see where you are coming from with being irritated by the overwhelming use of this substance by people that are motivated by it's 'popularity'. But to use your example, I didn't start thinking that Tool was anything less now that they are much more well known, be careful that your anger is in the right place (because they are abusing X without any regard to personal safety), and not because more people have begun finding out something that you would prefer to keep your own- that leads to elitism, which can be rather tempting, but ultimately self-destructive. But anyone that does a drug simply because they want to look cool... well suffice it to say that they piss me off too.

That's actually one of my biggest frustrations, given that I seriously believe that every psychoactive on the planet should be legalized; I don't think I need to explain what a nightmare it would be if pop culture got a hold of psychedelics. But the point you made about harmful additives is yet another reason that if they were legal, society would be much less at risk. I think that no drugs of any sort should be legal to advertise, EVER. Have the government produce them, and tax the FUCK out of them (they'd still be cheaper than now), but when the profit motive enters the picture, concerns about health and safety (not to mention TRUTH) go right out the fucking window. Watch any drug commertial on tv and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, if you have the right kind of eyes and a little bit of pharmacological understanding. Sigh... Things are fucked up.

By the way though, we were all ignorant once, go easy on the youngin's;-) In my experience, people will actually listen to your advice if you don't insult them first.

Peace.

And I hope I never buy anything that came from your friends/aquaintances, what a bunch of fucking assholes!!!

[jay-jay]

The Adultrants… I wish I could answer that with confidence but I didn’t get an answer at the time they were pretty vague about chemicals something caustic (possibly Dihydrogen Monoxide or a bleach agent or Nitrodiphenyl). All I saw were two buckets one with a whitish greyish powder inside. They are not my friends, I helped one of them out in a big way and he wanted to thank me, he said I was welcome to the “pre-adulterated” product at wholesale (and it doesn’t cost much to make ex). I don’t use it but if any of my friends want ex, I take the liberty of acquiring it from them… Then sell it for a bit more :))

As far as I’m aware it’s indeed quite common practice as these guys are pretty harmless, well as harmless as drug producers can be. It’s because you can get away with it and the market keep buying it as the quality and quantity decrease.

I don’t think you understand though, I don’t think of tool any less now… Umm another example… Ok casual sex, it’s fine and fun but you would feel better if the other person wasn’t sleeping with other people… Umm still doesn’t convey, maybe you like gold so you get a big chunk but everyone else finds big chunks and the value goes down, gold is still just as cool but it’s worth less… meh.

I was sitting having a coffee with a friend yesterday, then one of her friends came off the street and sat with us, informing us of how she was on speed and how madcore it was (and telling us she was experiencing things, you just don’t fucking experience on speed!!!). This degraded speed to me. If you still don’t get me that’s cool but you probably never will.

I don’t think they should be legalised, not because of any elitism reasons just I do think they are harmful, and they are too dangerous to sit on a counter. I mean that. You have to be in the right mood to trip, bad trips happen and they aren’t determined by how much or what batch you use. For this reason (a few bad trips) I don’t endorse it, especially alone. Other than that, it’s far more dangerous than alcohol or marijuana when it comes to operating machinery, driving cars, crossing roads, everything. It’s a dangerous thought any joe schmoe walking around tripping, and this would occur because it’s readily available (even moreso) the legality situation deters a lot of people. Anyways NO!!! Don’t legalise any drugs, I suppose alcohols ok, it’s pretty mild but even it is fucked up with the violence and accident related repercussions.

I think you take the risk by taking the drug, there are and will continue to be harmful additives to such low grade drugs as amphetamine and MDMA. I threw a speed lab together last year, more for me to use studying than distributing, and I only added icing sugar to spread it. This means you can only trust yourself. The government producing is a nice concept but I don’t agree with legalisation.

Go easy man, I’m only seventeen myself, I have just had the advantage of at a young age becoming very educated on life’s darker aspects. I would still consider myself pretty young, I’m finishing High School this at the moment.

[jay-jay]

"Some people with a few more braincells than the one before them say “why would manufacturers put harmful substances and not just sugar/bicarb blahdeblahdeblah??” and this is because harmful agents have this knack for MDMA cohesion and people don’t believe they are buying an ecstasy tablet if it tastes like an m&m. " --JayJay

Does this really come as a shock to you? I mean I thought it was common knowledge hence the first part.

[AllforUnity]

Interesting perception.

[philosophomore]

Unfortunately I don't have very much time to discuss these matters at work (and it's probably not the best thing to be writing about considering they spy on us from time to time), but I have plans tonight, so hopefully I will be able to write back later this week. Keep checking if you're interested.

And thanks for making some good points.
Peace.

[philosophomore]

"I don’t think they should be legalised, not because of any elitism reasons just I do think they are harmful, and they are too dangerous to sit on a counter. I mean that. You have to be in the right mood to trip, bad trips happen and they aren’t determined by how much or what batch you use. For this reason (a few bad trips) I don’t endorse it, especially alone. Other than that, it’s far more dangerous than alcohol or marijuana when it comes to operating machinery, driving cars, crossing roads, everything. It’s a dangerous thought any joe schmoe walking around tripping, and this would occur because it’s readily available (even moreso) the legality situation deters a lot of people. Anyways NO!!! Don’t legalise any drugs, I suppose alcohols ok, it’s pretty mild but even it is fucked up with the violence and accident related repercussions."-- JayJay

Ok, first of all, I see where you are coming from, this is probably the way that the majority of people feel. I will do my best to articulate my reasoning for dissent.

You are correct when you state that drugs are dangerous, though I would once again emphasize that this is only a POTENTIAL of the drugs and depends upon how they are used.

I wholeheartedly agree that societies have rather significant drug problems, however, it is precisely BECAUSE I know the extent of these dangers that I argue for their decriminalization. You see, I am not cynical enough to honestly believe that drug laws were originally intended for anything but the benefit of society as a whole. (Now the propaganda campaigns and big-business conspiracies that came about as a result of prohibitions of different drugs is quite another story, and one that I don't have the space to discuss here; see any drug information website for info if you want. The history of drug laws makes for a very entertaining study.) But back to the point, this whole argument that humans should not be allowed as a whole to have access to psychoactive drugs would be a whole different story and would leave me on much less firm ground in the debate if it were possible for this to be done. In fact, I am not thoroughly convinced that it wouldn't be better for our species if we were never faced with this decision at all and could just 'un-invent' them. But the fact is that closing Pandora's mythical box is not an option on the table. Put simply, prohibition does not prohibit drug use. What it DOES do is raise the risk posed by those who use them to an incredible degree; and not only the risk of users, but ALL of society as a whole. Think about it, almost all of the ills in society that are commonly percieved to be caused by 'drugs' are in fact simply unavoidable consequences of their illicit status.

Drugs are the most profitable industry in existence, because they are so cheap to make but they have such high demand. You can NEVER make progress trying to battle the 'hydra' that is the black market, there will always be people to take the rather lucrative place of someone that gets busted or killed. In fact, the absence of any rules and regulations in illicit drug distribution, combined with its overwhelming potential for expedient monetary gains results in underground alliances of distribution networks, and all the violence that comes with them. You see, just as the prohibition of alcohol ended up creating organized crime, prohibition of other drugs spawned the drug cartels. And these are very obviously BAD people that exercise considerable power and control over huge networks of people. Funded by an army of all-too-willing slaves (interesting side note, the word addict originally denoted ownership, as in your dog is addicted to you) these organizations have no natural predators strong enough to fear. The lone possiblity that threatens the structure of ALL of these organizations is that one day, the drugs could be decriminalized. So, like it or not, you both are fighting for the same end if you believe that their use should be a crime. Politics makes for strange bedfellows, huh?

As you acknowledged before, the lack of any quality (ethical) control creates a marked danger to drug users. If they were legally available at known quality and dose, you could drastically reduce drug-related emergency room visits, not to mention toxic effects of aldulturant additives.

Here's the thing. society has great problems w/drugs. But we could completely eliminate drug related crime with one constitutional ammendment. And societies are ALWAYS going to have drug abuse problems no matter what their legal status.
Drugs are powerful things, and to use (to the disdain of my good taste ;-)) a line from a recent popular movie (Spider Man), "with great power comes great responsiblity." Eventually, this process of natural selection works itself out. Part of society will say that they are too dangerous and choose not to use them of their own accord, not because it is the law. In fact, the illegality of these substances ends up glamorizing their use as a way to rebel against authority. If people who don't care enough to learn how to use drugs safely use them, they are going to find out rather quickly what happens when you abuse them.

In the end, most people who choose to use drugs will educate themselves on how to minimize the risk of potential harm, and as for those rare people present in any cross section of society that are just plain 'fuck-ups', well, I don't propose that baseball bats should be outlawed just because they can be used as weapons. You can't protect everyone, you might as well try to protect the most people as possible.

Additionally, it is FUCKED UP that people like me could recieve a jail sentence rivaling a murderer for something that not only did not harm anyone, but helped my psychological and spiritual growth. I am one of the most compassionate people there are, I am the guy who stops to help you when your car is broken down, etc., and I am a CRIMINAL, according to our laws. When they make drugs illegal, they are effectively prohibiting access to certain states of consciousness. States of consciousness that have the potential when properly used to have an amazingly helpful effect on people's lives and personalities. To quote Rick Doblin PhD. (president of MAPS), "The sad part of this is our culture and people desperately need what [drugs like] MDMA has to offer in terms of understanding, love, and therapy, yet our reaction is fear and repression and inflicting legal pain on people."

In the spirit of Jefferson, "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thank you to anyone who read all of this.
Peace.

[philosophomore]

And by the way, I would feel MUCH safer around numerous people tripping balls than that many people drunk off of their ass. Like Terrence McKenna remarked, "The strongest argument for the legalization of ANY drug is that society has been able to survive the legalization of alcohol."

[jay-jay]

You all definitely have to listen to this….

http://ecdm.silversparkles.net/ecdm-anthem.mp3

enjoy. (right click to save)

[51.42]

Man no-one fucken needs drugs, but you do need drugs to experence what we have.

[VanGogh]

Not that I disagree with people doing drugs in any way because I know that it is your choice as an individual to do as you please. But in the case of ecstasy at least, I know that it releases happy hormones, (I don't know their scientific name), and everyone has only a certain number of these hormones starting from day one. So when you take ecstasy, you are letting massive amounts of these hormones go at once which is a nice experience while it lasts, but in the long run, when your happy hormones are gone, it will not work and you will be in constant depressed state until the day you die. I personally do not agree with this drug, mainly for this reason, but like I said before, it is you decision as an individual to do as you please to yourself. Also, I believe that Tool's music is very informative in of itself if you just open your mind to the words. It is like reading the bible, every time you listen to it you learn something/discover something completely new.

Anyway, whatever your decision, just make sure that it is the best one that you feel you can make, so that you can better yourself as an individual.


Um the scientific thingy you speak of is Seratonin and the brain constantly makes it from the day your born till the day you die, regardless of whether you've taken X before. Speaking from personal experience (50+ hits), the next day you do feel a bit depressed, but that is of course due to a lack of seratonin. The only reason I'd have to say that it is a "bad" drug is because once you feel that "ecstacy" (and that is really what it is) you just want to feel like that all the time, much like herion, or coke (without the physical dependancy).
The only reason I could advocate X use is in a theraputic use (which it was developed and intended for), like was previously stated in this thread.
Anyways - Salaam

[Stalkz]

Yeah, this is an old topic, but I found it from a "similar threads" link, so sue me.

Anyways, I can't believe there's an arguement about "OMG E IS DANGEROUS!" on a board populated by DXM users.

[Goldfoot]

Was that one guy correct when he said youre born with only a certain amount of endorphins?

[APT]

He was referring to serotonin which is the neurotranmitter that makes you feel love, joy, happieness, etc. Like someone else in this thread stated, your brain produces it from the day you are born until the day you die. It's not as if your brain only has a certain amount of serotonin it ration out in your lifetime. The danger of E is the synapses between your axions (I think they are called) and your receptors become flooded with serotonin which MAY be harmful to your brain. No conclusive studies have been done however.