Religion-based?

[LyingRealist]

I dunno if its just me but the first thought to come to me upon listening to the song is that its about Christianity.
I thought maybe they were referring to the fact that jesus was crucified or eve tasted of the fruit and they used it as a basis of telling everyone that we are all sinners and we must repent and do as we are told.
But i sense a paradox.
Maybe because of the grudge being the basis of their whole religion, if they were to let it go and just forgive and forget, then the whole structure must fall leaving the clergy without that power and esteem.
who would want to destroy all that they have built when they could just pretend they are still righteous and good?

just a thought

[furtherdownNIN]

i also think the grudge is religiously based. i wrote a reply in another the grudge thread. This is kinda repetative, but i guess i'll paste it in here too since your thread deals directly with this interpretation.

turn it on religion!

It's that time again! Time to bash christianity with the lyrics of a tool song. Yeah!!!

Ok. To start, the first verse. "Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity, Calculate what we will or will not tolerate," I think the opening two lines focus on the unexcepting nature of christianity. Many sects of christianity turn away gays, people of other races, and those of different life styles. The second line shows how the church defines what is acceptiable for its member, through commandments and other forms of dogma. "Desperate to control all and everything," deals with the christianities desire to be the one and only religion. In the past it often times was the church that controlled everything. Much like the time period that The Scarlet Letter took place in. "Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen," Wait.... correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it the chruch that persecuted Hester Prynne..... Holy Shit! it was!

On to the next verse. "Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip them to the lonesome end," this one is about the churchs belief structure. Whatever the church has decided is right has to be followed no matter what. Belief is the cornerstone of religion and therefore has to be right, because it's God's will, of course! That's why they have to justify their beliefs even if they're wrong. If they don't their religion will fall apart. "Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatium prison cell," what scares a good christian more than a tool concert? The thought that their religion might not be right! So they've locked themselves into they're beliefs. This attitude going complete agaiinst the "think for yourself" thing.

The rest of the song restates the first two verses with alot of reference to saturn in there. Every good christian knows that saturn and things like astronomy are tools (ha) of the devil. This is further proof that this song is anti-religion.

The only other line that I can manipulate into an anti-christian message is, "Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper." This line focuses on christianities desire to define, confine, and control our lives. They are weighing us down, pulling us down to the bottom.

Well hasn't this been fun. If you can find any other anti-christian messages in this song (by say, playing it backwards or slowing it down ; ) please add them to this thread. I must re-enforce this is just what I hear in this song and it is incrediably biased. Hope you enjoyed it!

[Kostia]

A lot of people don't seem to understand several things about Christianity. A) What it's about. B) How TOOL interprets it. It's kind of like all those "Wiccan" people you meet that know nothing about Wiccanism, whereas those that are Wiccan may well be humble and good but the false ones will just annoy you quite often. That's very true with many "Christians"--the religion itself is only a part of the belief and those who "practice" it have no belief at all.

Christianity is a religion based on faith in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, to sum it up. No work involved for the salvation aspect, unlike every other known religion (proven fact). Faith is the only necessary thing.

So how then is Christianity exclusive if Christ did say to go out in his name baptizing all nations (peoples) in the name of his Father?

In fact Christianity is not exclusive. It's very inclusive. What's exclusive are those who are wolves among sheep, not true Christians, who look out only for themselves, or misguided, spiritually young Christians.

I don't want to insult you but if you live in freedom how then can you try to harm something that founded that freedom?
So please don't be offended, just listen.

As for how TOOL interprets Christianity I see it this way, after hearing Maynard's take on APC's Judith. (see, he writes the lyrics, and the lyrics are what would make it anti-Christian, so this encompasses the whole band, we can assume until told otherwise by them) He says Judith is about lies, lying, and blind faith. And blind faith is wrong according to Christianity. If you have faith and nothing to follow it for what do you follow? Just an emotion or human will. You must be granted a divine experience to achieve the epiphany that leads to salvation.

So what about Opiate? It too is about blind faith. Even more so than Judith perhaps. Sober? It has nothing to do with Jesus--his name's use is another way of saying, "Jeez, talk about something new." (It's "Jesus, won't you f**king whistle..." not "Jesus won't you f**king whistle!...") What about Eulogy? It talks about crosses, martryrs. But no. I don't think it has anything to do with Christianity, perhaps, if anything, one of it's followers who may have stumbled or never followed at all. Okay... so what about The Grudge then? No... I really doubt it most of all with this song. Most of it's inferences have more to do with astrology and Grecian myth than with anything Christian.

Have you heard the song Thomas by APC? I believe I can quote it is Maynard's favorite song off of Mer de Noms from hearing it somewhere on the site. Well next to the Howerdelian characters in the book is... a face of Christ? And just who is Thomas? Well a Thomas from the Bible was a disciple of Christ who had doubts in his resurrection at first and demanded to see his wounds from the crucifixion. The song talks about being taught to forgive someone, and to learn how to pray and follow that person once more. I don't want to infer to much but what does that lead you to believe?

It's seems like TOOL is seeking God in their music, and not trying to alienate Him.

Christianity is not exclusive. Do you think there are no Christians that hang out with the pot heads, the freaks, and the goths, and call them the best of friends? And they like the same music and things so they look and dress like them and are identified with them? And treat them and the preps and the jocks all the same because each one is equal in God's sight?

Well you just did meet one of those. I am a Greek to Greek, and a Jew to a Jew, and I love them all. Please listen to my words and do not spurn them, but instead take to heart what I'm trying to show you, and others.

[JHKeats]

I must agree with Kostia. Christianity is about openess and freedom, not restriction and limitation. Lying Realist, you have every right to respond to the lyrics with whatever emotions you feel; moreover you have the right to share your responses with us. I just think it neccessary that you be careful how you describe "Christianity." First and foremost, those persecuting Hester Prynne were Puritans. You are right to say that their community asserted a legal and moral code on those living in the community. But in employing the Hester Prynne route of interpreting the scarlet letter you must so too admit that the letter was not entirely limited to one interpretation. Hester made the letter herself and insodoing used gold thread to highlight her symbol. What is the symbol? Is it a mark of shame? A mark of defiance? A mark of creativity? Most will argue that because it is a symbolic representation, or rather a limiting object, illustrating something abstract and unlimited, it has not defined by simply one interpretation. To the puritans it is the mark of adultry, but to those reading the novel it also means artist. As an artist, Prynne lives a threshold existence not entirely in the community and not entirely outside of it. And it is her choice to do so. Throughout the entire novel, she has the opportunity to reveal her lover and lessen her punishment but she freely chooses to do otherwise. Harking back to Christianity, astronomy is not a "tool of the devil." Granted, Galileo suffered persecution by the Catholic Church during the inquisition, but I suggest that you check the dates in which Galileo lived.
Most important to this discussion, however, is the fact that Christianity does not set out to limit and judge and otherwise restrict your life. Simply, the varying Christian perspectives, generaly speaking of course, recognize the fundamental human attribute as a free will. That free will, according to the Catholic Church, an all inclusive group of believers, assumes that this freedom is what makes man created in imago dei.
In terms of thos e who choose a lifestyle other than Christianity, we all have a right to respond to the directional forces of life. Some call them God as with a Christian. Some call them the beautiful as with an artist. Rather than trying to find what negative messages can be suggested by manipulating "the grudge," feel the message. Don't rationally analyze, feel the song and let it take you somewhere. Your name suggests that you belive solely in reality and the natural. Nature is directed by forces; namely the desires for food, shelter, and reproduction. Dare to feel the uncertain. Be a prophet or be an artist but be something that senses and creates rather than something that seeks to destroy with rational analyses.
I respect your response to the forces of this world and can only hope that you will respect those of the Christians. Together, hopefully, "we'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been."

[Kostia]

Amen, brother.

[within]

good post kostia! however, the grudge can be about christianity if that's how the reader interprets it personally. you (and me, and maynard, and whoever) might see it completely different... the lyrics can really be about whatever we relate them to as individuals.

great points about misconceptions of christianity too.

[ShadesofGraey]

I've never posted anything on any message board before. But after reading the last couple replies to the first posts, i am simply amazed. Rare is it that i can find someone else, let alone more than one person who understands there is nothing inherently wrong with religion. Christianity as a religion is not to blame for what its usually attacked for. The people in the positions of power in the church since it was started are the ones feeding fear, hatred, and bigotry into the innocence of the belief, much like radical extremists use Islam for their own purposes. Of ourse not all of them do it, but enough did along the way to bring it to where itis now
If there is a sin greater than the manipulation of one's innocence concerning his or her beliefs to achive another's ends (which are usuallyin opposition to said beliefs), i dont know what it is.
It's odd to, that for how many people post on here about how they get Tool's 'think for yourself' motto, few seem to actually read anything farther than the lyrics.
So many blast Christianity or pretty much all religions except for whatever pagan one seems to be in vogue at the time. That is just ignorant, and not in the negative 'you're stupid' meaning, but simply what it means, uneducated.
All i'm saying is that if you hear something that interests you or makes you want to support whatever was said, instead of blindly raising a ruckus suppoerted only with the first bit of information you hear (talk about blind faith), take time to research what it is you're actually getting into. Some times you might end up disagreeing.

Of course, this is just a broad generalization. Religion and spirituality are incredibly important to me, so i just tend to get excited. I know everyone on here is not like i described above, but some are. Stereotypes, good or bad (face it) don't just appear out of nowhere.

Also, i read somewhere on here (regarding the song) that "Saturn ascends, the one, the ten" may relate to the Ten Sephiroth of the Cabala Tree of Life, One being the material world and Ten being the Divine Crown or pretty much the gates of heaven.
I got intersted in the Cabala after seeing their Salival package. That all never even occured to me.

Clever :)

[paraflux]

Any threads about Christianity, and I will be there!
First, to that last comment about the tree of Sephiroth, yes, I do think that is what Maynards talking about. Choose one and be a base human, or ten and be a conscious part of God, or be able to create heaven (what we think of as heaven).
Christianity as a philosophy may be very sound. There are good general guidelines for living, guidelines for investing in good karma, metaphors upon metaphors explaining as well as they could in that time and language (yes, I bring up the fact that translations have watered it down) what is happening spiritually at that time and what will happen in the future (now). What became of this philosophy was disastrous. The church became powerful, created their own format for salvation, and even though things have changed in the world, evidence has been discovered that changes the way the philosophy should be viewed, they have hidden it because they want to keep control. Either that, or they seriously doubt people can handle the truth, but I believe it is the former. I was raised in the church, with my dad and his dad both preachers. Today, Christians in America have little idea what they are following. They go on emotion, conviction, and call it faith. They recite scripture without realizing what it could mean. They argue AMONG THEMSELVES about petty issues, ones that Christ would have rolled his eyes at (if he actually existed, I don't see why it matters, the story is still the same). They split from each other and harbor grudges forever, I have seen it and it is never pretty. I'm sure there are churches out there who accept all people, but the ones I have seen encourage confomity and frown on individuality. If serious questions are raised that are a danger to faith, or scripture, or people's interpretations of the scripture, the questions are squashed with the reply of "We aren't supposed to know everything, we are but lowly men." I have NEVER understood this. Why should we be in the dark if we were "MADE IN HIS IMAGE?" Why are we bound by ignorance if we have a desire to know? Why should we sit around and wait for Jesus to come back when we can go to him? Why are people who advance the human race (Galileo, etc.) persecuted and killed by the church because what they have to say seems to go against what the church leaders want the scriptures to mean to the people? I have seen many things wrong with the practice of this philosophy in the Western Culture. It is so contaminated with hypocrisy that I find it VERY hard to not be bitter. I was made to live that life, to breathe that gas, to ingest that poison. As far as I can tell, Rome moves first, all others follow suit later. It is the Catholics who have done the most damage, by hiding documents and scrolls and the like. They want to keep their status and keep the people controlled. They stick with the literal interpretation when, back then, they used metaphors and abstract thoughts to create a message people of that time could relate to. We can't relate to a time that occurred over 2000 years ago!!! Why do we still try? The Bible may be timeless but the meanings have been corrupted by time barriers, language barriers, and societal barriers. I think the early christians at Antioch would be appalled at the things going on in Jesus' name today.
Now that my rant is done, I would like to say that Mer de Nommes to me is from the perspectives of people Jesus encountered in his ministry. "Judith" I believe to be Judas said with a lisp. It is about betrayal, and Judas betrayed Christ. They should have A Perfact Circle board so we could describe our feelings about those songs too. But Thomas is indeed from a similar perspective of the doubting disciple Thomas who needed to see proof that the apparition standing before him was indeed Christ resurrected.

So I do not recommend Christianity for anyone, obviously. If people want to read the Bible and come up with their own interpretations without church guidance I would say go for it. But going to church and following what people say about what Jesus may or may not have meant is sick. They even call themselves sheep. Who wants to be a sheep? I want to be an eagle.

Tool has led me to believe in nothing. If you believe in nothing, then anything is possible. Beliefs can be a serious barrier for progression. All philosophical progression has had to struggle past people in power who are in charge of what people believe. They used to believe the Earth was flat. That was the truth, that the earth was flat. If anyone told you different they were lying or just joking. But after it was proved that it was round, the belief had to change. People died because of the belief that the earth was flat. See how the truth does not escape the path of change? So what we think as true today, what we believe in, could be proved false tomorrow. So believe in nothing, and anything is possible. And anything is.

[furtherdownNIN]

In response to the responses to my post. My earlier post was only half serious and dripping with sarcasm. I was just being a jackass after the second paragraph, so settle down about the astronomy thing.

I'm sorry but I just don't see the necessity of a controlled religion. Here’s the way I look at it. If I somehow grew up isolation without any contact from the rest of the world I would have no idea who the fuck Jesus Christ was. I would most likely create my own belief structure, whether it be a tree god or a fire god or god knows what. And this would work for me. As long as I believed in it, I would be content with the world. But then suppose one day I’m worshipping my tree god when Kostia comes by and says, “Christ said I should go out in his name and baptize all nations (people) in the name of his Father.” Suddenly, I’d be surrounded by missionaries and I’d have my beliefs taken away from me. For years I’d been living a happy, complete existence and now I’m told what was working for me is wrong and doesn’t work. My happiness would be called uncivilized and I would be a pagan. I was happy, what was wrong with that. (Just ask the Native Americans)

The truth is Christianity doesn’t exist unless you have contact with it. That’s why it is a parasite that needs to be spread across the globe. For it to survive it must infect as many people as possible. Science exists even if you don’t have contact with it. Theoretically one could realize many of the laws of science on his own, through experiments and observations. If one was put in a room and said create Christianity he couldn’t do it. That’s why it’s all made up.

So why is this made up belief still followed today. What makes a dusty old belief better than a newly created one, if they both perform the same function? I don’t really have a problem with the lessons or values of Christianity. It’s when people think it’s the one and only correct belief that I get pissed. Kostia, why does someone on the other side of the world have to think the exact same way as you? What makes your beliefs right for him? I just don’t get it. If spirituality is supposed to be an exploration of ones self why does everyone try to influence his neighbor.

Oh well. I don’t care what you think. I only wrote this because It helped my to further my understanding of my own beliefs. This was an example of me thinking for myself, so piss off!


By the way paraflux you post was incredible! Keep up the good work.

[Kostia]

Like I said, I didn't want harm to come from my words. I wanted you and everyone else to understand a Christian's perspective on this subject. And for them to grow from it. You said you furthered your understanding, correct?

In fact the people on the other side of the world DON'T have to believe what I believe about Christ or anyone else, it's their choice as humans with souls, my friend.

In a way I have a logical yet fatalistic philosophy. It's a Greek kind of thinking placed in a Christian faith, which leads to interesting thoughts.

Do you think I've never doubted my faith? Actually one of the things you just said is what earlier in life helped to confirm my faith in what I believe, though it's certainly not the only thing.

Your attack was on Christianity, and not on Islam or Judaism or Mormonism (which is in my opinion not Christianity, but an outside interpretation of it), or anything else that would want to spread its beliefs to others. No, you only said Christianity was the parasite.

People hate Christianity in several ways and forms because it is not of this world, and neither are they, but they are born into it. And human nature logically dictates, often, a hatred of the good, for personal reasons.

Realize that you can't think for yourself so much that you alienate the needs of others too. Or you can, actually, I just hope that you don't.

Anyways if you want to blame me for something, that's fine, but don't blame my Christ for it. You don't have to give me a chance, but listen to Him when He speaks through me.

Thank you for listening, all who did. I love you, peace and hope to everyone.

[LyingRealist]

I would just like to start by saying I wasn't in any way saying Christianity is a bad thing.
That was merely a feeling i got from the song perhaps im wrong perhaps im not.
I think a different way of saying what I originally meant is that Maynard was more speaking out against the way groups or individuals have biased opinions about others of a different religion or race.
I think my first posting was a bit biased sounding maybe and i apologise if any offense was taken.
When i use the term Christianity when talking about how they hold grudges and stuff i mean the people who are getting powerful off making people fear that they must do as they are told or else God and Jesus will take revenge.
I have had this stuffed down my throat as a child when i went to church.
I have met many many Christians who tend to be a bit more open-minded and more about faith then following rules.
I think paraflux and futherdownNIN said what i meant more eloquently.
Uh.. yeah just clarifying.
Oh and my name just sounded ironic to me so i liked it.=)

[Casious]

I must agree with Kostia. Tool has in no way been anti-christ or against beliefs in God or Christianity. Their basis of think for yourself and question authority stand true in this discussion also. The fact is they are open-minded to beliefs in all religion. They bash christianity in the fact that people have been told what a "christian should do/be" and they just do it blindly. Maynard/Tool wants us to consider what we truly believe and then go off from there.

[paraflux]

People!!! I did not say Christianity in its purest form was a bad thing!! But where is the purity? It's been 2000 years since these words were written in a language hardly anyone speaks anymore with metaphors that most christians take literally!!! I also never said Tool attacked christianity. In fact, they perhaps utilize the words and story of christ better than anyone else, better than any minister could, better than any archbishop or priest. The story of Christ is a good analogy to live by. It's just that people don't focus on the spiritual side of it and concentrate on taking the words so literally they lose their meaning. Yes. people have a choice, my friend. I never said they didn't and I never would keep anyone from making that choice. I would, however, warn people of the hypocrisy in the church today, and you cannot look me in the eyes and tell me otherwise. I don't hate christianity because it is not of this world. I don't even know what you are getting at. I don't even hate christianity at all. I think it is a detriment, sure, I think negative things about the way it is operated and worked over on the people, But i don't hate anyone who decides to be a christian. I will just be vocal about my feelings since it has affected me so. I certainly don't blame christ or Kostia or anyone else, I do not pretend to know who keeps information hidden over there in the vatican. But somewhere along the line, something got fucked up. bad. the spiritual side of christianity is all but lost. It focuses now on literal interpretation, using images we are familiar with. LOL. I CERTAINLY don't blame Christ. He spent his ministry exposing the pharisees who were so "concerned" with the law and its everyday application and never tried to get spiritual. The same thing, I think, can be attributed to christians today. They focus on the law of the Bible and fail to see what the law implies or why it was even written in the first place.
Yes, my "attack" was on christianity and not mormonism or bhuddism. But christianity is the religion I am familiar with. I also don't "attack" other religions because most of them agree that they are not the "ONLY" path. Christians are taught and defiantly argue that christianity is the ONLY PATH FOR SALVATION. They mock the other religions (DC Talk has a song where they make fun of the philosophy where cows are considered sacred), they look down on other religions, they think they will be the only ones in heaven. These new books and movies, the "Left Behind" series are such an example. The christians go to heaven, everyone else goes to hell. Bullshit.

So if you can progress through christianity, that's fine. But I would think you are one of the very few who actually make an attempt to get spiritual with it. One of the basic rules of christinaity is that we are but lowly men who cannot know everything, but simply depend on the idea of God to get us through and into Heaven. I left because I know I am made in His image and can have what Jesus had, what the Saints had. I was not around anyone who taught that way.

[rickiep00h]

First, a request. Please use paragraphs, people. My eyes get very tired trying to wade through a dense block of letters.

Okay.

CHRISTIANITY is okay. When you take it and interpret it into a set of rules, then it becomes wrong. Maynard has voiced a strong anit-RELIGION opinion many times, but has only denounced Christianity once (Judith), to my knowledge.

I think that Maynard has always been in keeping with the "Think for yourself" mantra. Any statements he makes don't condemn faith, but merely ask you to question it.

I used to be Lutheran. But I stopped considering myself Lutheran after I realized how much bullshit is carried out in the name of religious 'freedom', as per Northern Ireland and Afganistan, et al.

I used to consider myself Christian, but now I don't even know about that, because sometimes I wonder if God is really there for me, and I question a lot of the 'truths' in the Bible.

But my personal beliefs will not change the fact that I am still open to question those beliefs. And that's all Maynard is asking us to do, is QUESTION, not REJECT.

[Kostia]

Mannn... I would just like to say that I wasn't lashing out at anyone. LyingRealist or FurtherDown, especially, seemed to give off a sense of guilt/"I have been blamed". I don't think anyone was trying to blame anyone, or at least I hope not.

You have EVERY right in the world to disagree with me or ANYONE else so please do whenever you feel the need to. But don't think that what I said--that seemed to spark all of this--was a rebuke on you (I speak more to LyingRealist at this point). I just wanted everyone to understand how I saw it, as a Christian, and how I saw your opinion also.

Just because words are traded, does not mean that blows are, also. So don't coil back from what I say, just listen and evaluate.

I also want to point your attention to the donation link that should be at the bottom of this page. You should probably support this if you can.

[Kostia]

Originally posted by paraflux
It's been 2000 years since these words were written in a language hardly anyone speaks anymore with metaphors that most christians take literally!!!

Yeah, I would like to add that it is probably not a good idea to judge a religion by its followers most of the time, because a lot of people get it wrong. You don't think I disagree with a lot of other people who say they too follow Christ? I do...

For one, fundamentalism. I don't think you can literally interpret something two thousand years old. The book of Leviticus is the VERY best example for anti-fundamentalism in Christianity. If you take that book literally, you might as well just give up. (if you don't know it is doctrine written for the Levites, a Hebrew tribe of priests in times BCE). And look at fundamentalism in other religions. In the American scope right now is fundamental Islam. And look at that! I know plenty of Islamic people that are very, very good people who mean no harm to our country, some of these I speak of don't live here, either.

I also disagree with a lot of the social customs that have evolved in a lot of the protestant denominations here in the U.S. and I'm sure there are the same problems in other countries too.

For one... a lot of church congregations, if they did not know who I was prior to, would for the most part, I think, turn me away from them. That is because I sometimes like to dress very different from most people who attend church regularly. And that they would turn away, I know not for certain, but it is very conceivable, and if it were to happen, would be very wrong.

A lot of "Christianity" people are exposed to are the social doctrines of its followers, those who have ingrained its religion into their lives.

The trouble with that is, religion isn't what saves you, in my eyes, its belief, and so these people can really make my beliefs look bad. And I'm not saying I'm perfect, either. We've all screwed up before.

I hope that you guys learned something positive about Christ from reading this, more than something negative about Christianity. Because I know both things are present and true.

Don't be discouraged to listen to anything (not just Christianity) until you've heard about from the most primary possible source you can find. It's hard not to do, however. It's hard not to get mad at that jerk Bible-beater, going door to door, only to tell your mom, in front of the rest of your family, you're all going to hell, then saying to have a nice day and walking on. It's hard not to hate anyone from Islam if you have any concern for this country's welfare for what some of the Islamic did to our country. It's hard to talk to a Hindu about anything spiritual and not get messed up if you grew up in the Western hemisphere.

To say it once more: you have the right to believe and to do whatever you want. My slant on that is that you SHOULD be doing something that you may not be, but you don't HAVE to do it. So don't think I'm pushing anything on you.

[paraflux]

ok, time for me to stop frowning at you. Do your thing, if you can get something from the bible thats good. There's just so much in there that is from the mindset of the people of that particular time. I would think it would take a lot of getting past that to see what it means. Not saying it cant be done, I find stuff in there that supports my philosophies but you cant talk to a christian about it because my interpretations are too radical for them to follow. It's so weird, they just look like they have no frame of reference for anything remotely spiritual and not dealing with literal teachings and historical bearing and how we can apply the lifestyle of 2000 years ago into ours today.

[OpiAtE_666]

First of all to the person who said Tool has never been anti-Jesus, I have this to say:

"Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
what you need is someone strong to use you...
like me,
like me.

If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me.
Don't judge or question.
You are broken now,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.

My God's will
becomes me.
When he speaks out,
he speaks through me.
He has needs
like I do.
We both want
to rape you.

Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light
and your lies."

-Tool

Secondly, I don't see how anyone of above average intelligence can subscribe to a dogmatic belief system where you must place all your faith in authority figures, and blindly believe in the supernatural. This is just my humble opinion and probably going to get shit for it, but I absolutely cannot stand organized religion. I used to be religious myself so I know where some of you people are coming from. But I opened my eyes, probably with a little help from Tool, and questioned my faith.

I could debate about religion for hours, but I just want to say this. Most christians say that the old testament isn't supposed to be taken literally. Stories like Adam and Eve and the Ark are supposed to be taken as parabols and lessons. If this is true then why is the story of Jesus Christ any different. Where do you make that distinction, and are you willing to base your whole life around that distinction? And if its not true, can you really place all your faith in a book about talking snakes and unicorns?

Think for yourself

Question Authority

[LyingRealist]

I think maybe we've all gotten off track.
I personally dont think its about the religion itself or the belief itself, but the structure with which it is presented to you.
I dont really give a hoot about religion in the sense of what people believe. i let them believe what they want. If Jesus was real then I'd like to meet him someday somewhere in the after life or sumthing coz he was a pretty onto it guy.

But the idea i held out to you all is....
perhaps Tool were speaking out against the people who say "do as i say or be condemned forever."

The "you dont need to think for yourself, we'll do it for you" people.
yes, them, not the religions themselves.

I think this is my most clear way of saying it.

yeah.......

[paraflux]

If you dont understand, does it really matter? People still subscribe to the dogma, which makes it real (even if it is twisted to the point of silliness). If I have a belief that a cow is sacred, then the cow is sacred and if I hurt it then my karma takes a turn for the worse. Ever read "Foucalt's Pendulum?" It's a good account of how creating a belief system can be dangerous if you don't fully realize what you are doing.

And opiate 666. I was raised to think both the old and new testaments are to be taken literally, but especially the new. Most christians would just die if it was ever proved that Jesus did not physically exist on Earth. I don't understand this either, but they won't change their minds just because I say it's any different. Plus, I don't care whether or not Jesus was alive here on Earth. The story is still the same, regardless. Historical significance, however, is perplexingly dear to the christians' hearts. I don't know why either.

Kostia, I had a very interesting thought last night in the car. I was thinking about some things Jesus said and I remembered "You do this to the Least of my brethren, you do it unto me." That signifies interconnectedness, by hurting any man you hurt the whole of man, because of the network. Then the thought came to me that we should start an alternative bible study and I laughed out loud for a good minute at the irony.

[Kostia]

All right guys. Enough of this... you're all cool and fine but I'm tired of coming back here to see a new post I must reply to in defense of the things I believe in that have been constantly perverted and misinterpreted by every pessimistic naysayer... and for those of you who DID listen to me I thank you VERY much.

As for Opiate 666 or whatever that name was... I guess you're one of the ones who didn't listen to my initial post. Not that you had to, but don't rebuke that which you don't know. Regardless... yeah, Opiate is an attack on Jesus, it would seem, isn't it? But the way many people interpret it (and Maynard has said it is this in concerts, as well) is as a song against blind faith, and it doesn't necessarily mean Tool really does just target Jesus. Kind of like 4 Degrees. Or Prison Sex. Or Stinkfist. If you take any of that literally you might as well chalk Tool up to that Ritual Magik stuff they refuted in the liner of Aenima.

I'm done posting on this thread. If I can't talk to you in person, and you can't see me, and who I am, it's obvious that it will be difficult to truly convey my point. I'm not even trying to convert anyone anyways, I don't think that's my exact job, so you guys shouldn't be offended... think of it like meeting someone from another culture. And learning from them. Just do that, and grow.

If I have learned much of anything from this thread it is that the world, wherever you go, will be cold and unfriendly to something it doesn't understand or doesn't agree with, rather than be acceptant and appreciative. That isn't limited to people who believe in a god and people who don't... it's everyone who is blind. Blind by faith or pain or ignorance...

A lot of what I'm being taught in school today is about appreciating other beliefs. I don't care if you believe it or not, but I try my hardest to do that to the best of my ability. Some of my best friends are Hindu, gay, in the occult, and other practices that I don't morally agree with. But every one of them deserves just as much love, respect, and appreciation as I do, and I give them that.

While you say to back off of the mothers who abort their babies, and the gays, and wrongly persecuted Muslims, what will you say of the Christians?

Is that a form of bias?

[LyingRealist]

I dont see why you feel you have to come back to defend your beliefs and opinions from us or, at least, me.
I think everyone needs to take everything i say as merely a possibility not a statement as such.
If I ask a question I'm doing exactly that, asking a question.
If you choose to answer my question I will take the answer swirl it around in my head and come back with a reply to your answer if i feel one is necessary.

This entire Thread is a discussion about whether the song may be religion-based, not an argument about whose right.
If a good point is raised, it is acknowledged as such at least I feel thats the case.

Remember its just us flexing our intellectual muscles and not trying to be the winners.

=)

[Smokin joe]

i dunno if anyone touched on this, but i dont wanna get too deep seeing as how this is a "The Grudge" forum but, Opiate the SONG isn't exactly anti religion. I have a song where Maynard says that there are some guys in history, Jesus, Buddah, Muhammed, that had some great ideas, but their PR guys fucked them over and whatnot.

joe

[paraflux]

Um, my last post wasnt attacking or anything. And I am cold and unfriendly towards Christianity the faith because of what I DO know, not because I am unfamiliar with it and don't understand. Let's get that cleared up immediately. I am thoroughly familiar with the teachings and I find it is the Christians in general who fear what they don't understand, who fear what is different, who fear spirituality itself. So there it is, I'm just saying what I do know, not speculating about what I don't.

[Jerk off]

My thoughts on religion are as follows

1: Every major religion has a prophet
2: Every major religon has a list of things that are unforgiveable
3: those list are basically the same
4:This leads me to think that every religion is interconnected
5: If they are all connected than none of them are right or wrong.

So, being that this is a tool thread this is how i connect that to Tool.
I don't think that they are against any religion, just the people in said religions that tell you " my way is the only way!!"
Take everything said to you and interpret it to fit your life. If all it takes is belief than what does it matter what kind of belief it is?
But thats just what i think.
MW

[mne pohuy]

Based on the high expectations of christianity in purest is okay, i just thought i'd add a counterpart. Think of your own religion... are you living your relgion in it's purest? Just because a religion isn't emaculate because of it's followers, doesn't mean the religion/body itself is tainted. Take the christian chruch for example, sure the church is swarming with hypocrites and many other evil two faced things. So what? I think some of you are mixing two separate parts together... like the religion and the body of the religion (the followers).
When you are thinking of the religion, FORGET the people who are involved with the religion (unless it's part of the religion, in which case totally destroys my case here), and think about you and the religion, What can you give back to it, what can you get from it?

I also think that religion IS the opiate of the masses (Karl Marx). Beliefs can be an opiate too. By not "having" beliefs/religion, you might 'believe' that it will enhance your ability to think outside the box. So everyone has their own opiates. I just don't see whats wrong with organized religion. There are people there who really are involved and care and need guidance from elders, and then there are mindless drones that just need something to guide them.

I'm kind of getting in loops with my thinking so i'll stop now... but just take this easy and don't get offendend, they are afterall just more beliefs. And, not every major religion has those 5 things listed (christianity doesn't have unforgivable sins), try not to generalize. And wait, what defines "major"

[Jerk off]

Catholics are under the base of christianity and they have Mortal sins < the ones you burn in hell for.>
Venial Sins <the ones that can be forgiven.>
So yes, christianity does have those.
Major = At least on country has it as the National religion.

[mne pohuy]

Thats only one branch of christianity, there are others that believe there are no unforgivable sins.

[Jerk off]

Ok Can we Agree that all christians refure to the Bible?
If we can than all I have to say Is Moses.
The Ten Commandments < a list of things NOT TO DO!!!
Hence all christians have a list of things not to do but diffrent sects put more stock into that than others. If you study religions you find a lot of things that are very similar.
MW

[Kostia]

Hey. I read Para's post about I don't need to be defending my beliefs in such an impassioned way. I think you're right in what you said Paraflux. Thanks man.

I read Jerk off's thing about... all major religions say there are some things you can't be forgiven of? Huh? Well I can think of several that don't really work that way, especially my own.

Catholicism is slightly different from mainstream Christian beliefs because it CAN be very dogmatic and forces a strict, almost cultish belief on its followers. That's not always true, and it's not solely to the Catholics, but they seem the repeat offenders of this. Regardless they are the only branch in Christianity I can think of that teaches of unforgiveable sins. Perhaps Orthodoxy does as well, I'm not read into it.

What about Hinduism? The karma/deeds system seems to be a permanent cycle of up and or down until that final up... so what is unforgiveable? Name it if you can.

And Buddhism, which developed out of Hindu influence, is the same from what I recall.

I believe I tried to make an earlier point not to generalize people in one of my posts but it's coming back again. You may think Christians are all fearful of something new but that's not always the case. Don't make a huge case against anti-Islam rallies if you won't do the same for other religions. You will find Christian poked and jeered at nearly any time you watch TV in America. I can't speak for the other countries, but that speaks to me.

All this time I've been trying to help you guys see that we aren't all under some conservative umbrella, those within Christianity. Accept and love everyone that you can. If you exclude Christians--or ANYONE else--you're just a hypocrite, for the words you have said.

Learn from this, and grow. I'll do the same.

[Jerk off]

Um Eating a Cow, is unforgivable. You know their Holy Object. and and Karma/dharma is based on how much pain you cause to others. therefore if you hurt someone or something. You get knocked lower down on the ladder of enlightenment. Please excuse the spelling. ohh yeah, and as for all the christians. Not accepting God's love is a sin you burn in hell for. No forgiveness for that one. Well, thats about it.

[Jerk off]

BTW im not saying any religion is right or wrong, Just stateing my point of view, thanks for the good conversation.