Time Signatures...

[Lateralus]

Hey I've just started trying to count some time signatures in songs. But I'm a bit unsure... I'm kinda new to this time signature thing. So if someone could help me out with these, that would be great.

1. OK, in "Schism" in the "I know the pieces fit.." is the time 6/8?

2. In "The Grudge" where it goes: "Defining, confining, and sinking deeper" is it 5/4 then 7/4? Are those even legal time signatures?

3. I don't even know where to start in "Lateralus" for the part right after the quiet beginning.

I guess that's all. You don't have to answer all these questions with lengthy posts. I'm just looking for a pointer in the right direction. Thanks.

[Amish Warlord]

Schism -- That part is in 6/4. But the whole song is screwed up.. i think i counted 12 different time signatures.

The Grudge -- The only one's i've noticed were 5/4 and 4/4, but i haven't really got into it too much

Lateralus -- That part i've found is easier thought of as a long bar of 24/8, felt in a rythym of 9/8/7, repeating. Try counting along. A bar of 9, a bar of 8, a bar of 7, a bar of 9, a bar of 8..... etc.

-J

[GernBlanston]

i have no clue as to whether or not you are correct with your guesses. but they definitely are legal. time signatures work like this: the bottom number represents what duration of note (whole = 1, half = 2, quarter = 4, etc.) gets assigned as the 'unit'. then in each measure, the top number is how many of those 'units' you'll find. so a 5/4 time sig means that a quarter note gets the beat and there's 5 beats per measure. i read some random article saying that, for example, schism starts off in like a 6/8 pattern and then transitions to a 6.5/8 pattern, which is really odd, but perfectly legal. hey, they did it, right? what creepy bastards.

[Madklikor]

The main riff of Schism is in 5/8 then 7/8, if you count on the accents. And 6,5/8 doesn"t really exists, because you would write it 13/16. Or you will find this kind of stuff in world music, like in Turkish music, but there is no convention to write this music.

[Cracker]

Madklikor: you're counting it wrong. you count from after the tripplets. The verses are in 6/8, the chorus is in 13/16, the bridgey part is in 27/16. It then ends with 6/8 when Maynards repeating "I know the pieces fit", followed by 4/4.

The grudge is predominately 5/4, with spots of 4/4. Towards the end, where maynard does the scream, it does 3 bars of 5/4 followed by one bar of 6/4, and repeats this pattern.

The verses in Lateralus is in 5/4 as well, but starts late or something.

[Madklikor]

It depends on where you start to count. The guitar and the vocal start after the triplets. The drum also accent after the triplets, especially on the second and third verse on the cymbal. You can count in 6/8, but the main accent will be the second half note of the first measure. The two answers are correct, it depends on where you place the accents (the bass isn't very clear, and the drums/vocals haven't the same accents as the bass). I personnaly feel the accent during the verse is after the triolets, so I take this position as the first time of my measure, and place the triolets at the end of the measure. Not sure if the members of Tool themselves know how to write this part.
The chorus is in 6/8 + 7/8, which I decompose this way : 3/8 + 3/8 + 7/8. The first time is on the triplet here. I guess you were meaning 13/8 and not 13/16. 13/8 is a valid answer if you don't wanna mark the accents (so is 12/8 for the verse).
The bridge is in : 6/8 + 6/8 + 6/8 + 3/8 + 3/4 (or 2/8 + 2/8 + 2/8). The guy from King Crimson wrote it with 7 measures of 3/8 and one of 3/4, which is the same thing.

The beginning and the end of the Grudge are in 5/8. The part you're talking about is in 5/8 + 5/8 + 5/8 + 6/8.

The main riff of Lateralus is the well known 9/8, 8/8, 7/8. The verses are in 5/4. The bridge is in 4/4 with polyrythms. The end is in 6/8, with some 6/4 on the drums.

[Cracker]

Oh, I see what you mean now. You're counting twice as fast as I am, which is why there is a mix up. What you are saying makes perfect sense.

I presume it was a typo, but don't you mean the bridge is 6/8 + 6/8 + 6/8 + 6/8 + 3/8?



What you said about the grudge is basically what I said, only you made it clearer.



and I find it easier to count the bridge of lateralus in 6/8 (I play bass though), and the drummer is in 5/8.

heres a diagram to show what I mean:



1 2 3 4 5-1 2 3 4 5-1 2 3 4 5-1 2 3 4 5-1 2 3 4 5-
1 2 3 4 5 6-1 2 3 4 5 6-1 2 3 4 5 6-1 2 3 4 5 6-
1 2 3 4 -1 2 3 4 -

The topline is the timing of the drums, the next line is how I count it, the second line is how you count it.

eventually, Danny changes over to 6/8 as well (and unbelievably smoothly I might add).

[Madklikor]

For me, the bridge end with a 3/4 because on the first measures the accent is every 3 notes, and on the last notes there is an accent every 2 notes, with the little D C D melody (if you count every half-note, you'll have : 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 2). It's the same thing as the thing you typed, with 27 half-notes in total. Hard to explain on a forum... if I could show you how I count it it would be easier. Here's a not -so-clear diagram :


e--------------------------------------------------------
b--------------------------------------------------------
g--------------------------------------------------------
d--14-----17-----14-----19-----12-----14-----10--------
a--0--0-0-0--0-0-0--0-0-0--0-0-0--0-0-0--0-0--0-0-0--
d--------------------------------------------------------
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 = 3 x 6/8 + 3/8

------------------
------------------
------------------
12---10---12---
0-0--0-0---0-0-
------------------
2 2 2 = 3/4



For the bridge in Lateralus, I'm okay with you. The bass is in triolets, which make you count it in 6/8.

[drum_dood]

everyone seems to have trouble counting lateralus (the song). here's how it is. the first part is in 4/4 (with just the guitar and the bass/drums coming in the background). then as it goest into the rocking out riff it's 9/8, then 8/8, then 7/8. you count the beat on the eighth notes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...repeating. then the verse is in 5/4. then when it's just the bass playing its in 4/4 (but with the triplets on the bass it sounds like 3/4, it's not it's really in 4/4) that's when mjk says "i embrace my desire to..." the high hat part on that is insane, not to mention the full-fledged wicked-ass drum beat that follows. then the end is 6/4 ("spiral out keep going....") that's about it...

[Professor Frink]

I wish I knew how to count this shit well.. never took any classes on this and im not a musician. I mean, I can get the really obvious ones but that's about it. Anyone know of any good websites for teaching this stuff, by any chance? Thanks.

[Cracker]

Originally posted by drum_dood
then when it's just the bass playing its in 4/4 (but with the triplets on the bass it sounds like 3/4, it's not it's really in 4/4)

you can count it either way.

perhaps another diagram will help.


1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-3-4-5-6-1-2-3-4-5-6-
1-----2-----3-----4-----1-----2-----3-----4-----


by counting it in 6/8, its easier to hear the timing of the drummer, which is 5/8 (Danny himself has said this)


Apart from that, you're basically repeating what has already been said.

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by drum_dood
everyone seems to have trouble counting lateralus (the song). here's how it is. the first part is in 4/4 (with just the guitar and the bass/drums coming in the background).


- The beginning is in 12/8. ...or you could argue that it is 4/4 with triplet subdivision. (listen to what the bass is playing)


.. then as it goest into the rocking out riff it's 9/8, then 8/8, then 7/8. you count the beat on the eighth notes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...repeating.

- Exactly right

.. then the verse is in 5/4. then when it's just the bass playing its in 4/4 (but with the triplets on the bass it sounds like 3/4, it's not it's really in 4/4) that's when mjk says "i embrace my desire to..." the high hat part on that is insane, not to mention the full-fledged wicked-ass drum beat that follows. then the end is 6/4 ("spiral out keep going....") that's about it...

- Essentially right, but the verse is 5/8. Each phrase only takes 5 counts, not 10.

[rikij]

hey Professor Frink, here a couple of sites about basic stuff; time signatures, etc. There are a lot of other good ones out there if you look around. Hope this helps:)

www.auburn.edu/~schafwr/theorymeters

www.alcorn.edu/musictheory

[Professor Frink]

Thanks a lot, rikij. I'll give those a look.

[Systolic]

Grudge is in 10/8.. notice how the song mentions ten a few times.. I don't think its coincidence...
Eon - Its kind of Rubato-ish, if you can do that with guitar
Patient - 5/4
Schism - I have NO clue... your guess is as good as mine
Parabol/a - 4/4
Ticks and Leeches - 7/8 and 4/4
Lateralus - Intro is 4/4, chorus is 9/8, 8/8, 7/8, verse is 5/4, drum solo is 4/4 over 6/8 and the last part ("with my feet upon the ground...") is 3/4 over 4/4
Disposition/Reflection - 4/4
Triad - 3/4 or 6/8... up to you

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by Systolic
Schism - I have NO clue... your guess is as good as mine


It mainly alternates between 5/8 and 7/8. The main riff is phrased as a bar of 5 and a bar of 7.

[Systolic]

Its truly amazing that Tool can take the most awkward time signatures and make the greatest music!
Thats always been something that I loved about Tool.

[Cracker]

Its not so amazing that they can play in them, but more that they get them to actually sound fluid.

[arman]

As per the time signatures on Lateralus, desipte being a musician myself and being wonderfully aroused by weird time signatures, im not all that good at identifying most of them in songs. Having read guitar magazines concerning schism i believe the main riff is in 6/4, however the rest of the song im not sure about. Lateralus is i beileve in a pattern of 9-8-7, which is in the ...faq i think...i dont remember. Howeveer the grudge, one of my favorites to atempt to duplicate with a set of drums. The time signature is quite strange i agree, but the question about 5/8 and 7/8, perfectly legal and amazingly fun. one 5/8 measure corresponds to 2 eighth notes and an eighth note triplet in 4/4, where as 7/8 is 4 8th notes and 1 8th triplet. also be aware that danny carey is one of the greatest drummers ever, him and spüg...if u really want some weird ass time sigs listen to muydvayne...those guys are wicked, ...but im becoming boring now

[aethereddy]

as far as the time signatures on schism go, if you must quell your curiosity, buy the sheet music; it's accurate from what i've seen.

mudvayne has nothing on meshuggah, as far as odd meters go (probably one of the reasons tool took meshuggah on tour).

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by arman
Having read guitar magazines concerning schism i believe the main riff is in 6/4, however the rest of the song im not sure about.


Mathematically the main riff can be called 6/4, (5/8 + 7/8 = 12/8 = 6/4) but the phrasing screams 5/8,7/8. No one counts 6/4 while playing that song.

[aethereddy]

Originally posted by MushroomStamp
Mathematically the main riff can be called 6/4, (5/8 + 7/8 = 12/8 = 6/4) but the phrasing screams 5/8,7/8. No one counts 6/4 while playing that song.

i disagree. i, for one, count the lick in 6/4 (with the 1st triplet as a pickup). so there's a lot of syncopation, but it's still simpler to follow when counted in 6.

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by aethereddy
i disagree. i, for one, count the lick in 6/4 (with the 1st triplet as a pickup). so there's a lot of syncopation, but it's still simpler to follow when counted in 6.

Then we disagree. I simply don't feel it like that. To each his own i guess.

EDIT - Remember I'm coming from the drummer point of view (listen to the downbeats). After a few more listens I can see where the guitar feels syncopated during the "choruses". But we could go round and round.