adam and eve

[peripheral]

Good lyrics are the mark of an author, or a poet; they stand on their own feet without the musical backdrop. MJK is one of the truly blessed lyricists/writers in the musical industry, but again, you know this already. 46 & 2, like many other writings from MJK, could be considered blasphemous(sp) by religious types because it references evolution; i love blasphemy(sp)!! For those people that believe in adam and eve, seven days of creation, and all that jazz, may i recommened a diffetent website: the 700 club. I believe in adam and danny and maynard and justin. I heard the bible was a good book, but i havent read it yet, however, i am in the middle of east of eden(steinbeck), and i recommend it. It may be standard high school reading, but the best books and authors are a good starting place for yong minds to expand their horizons:)spiral out!!

[Convoy_X]

I'll be the first reloges person too say it......










evolution is not blasphemy(sp)!! the bible says that God crated man it never said how. Evolution sais that man evolued form a lesser man not a chimp. as for Adam and Eve that has ben proven genitickly(sp).

[paraflux]

Man was created. That's all we know at this point. I mean, we know more, because we were there in some form of energy, but I for one cannot remember that far back yet. God works in mysterious ways, the Bible says. Nowhere does it say that evolution is an abomination or didnt happen or anything. I NEVER understood why christians thought that evolution could not happen and was blasphemous. Just because science has proven things that they now have to get off their lazy asses and accept as new truth, they are reluctant to do so. Anything affecting their comfort zone is viewed automatically as evil.

Adam and Eve. Are we supposed to learn from this story or is it an actual historical account? I do not see how it could be the latter. If we are supposed to learn from this story, how would we? Well, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil existed in this Garden they lived in, the one tree they were not supposed to touch. Satan got them to eat the fruit because then they would be as smart as God. THAT WAS A LIE!!!!! It had nothing to do with being smart. It was the knowledge that we could DISTINGUISH between good and evil, right and wrong. If they were perfectly happy before they ate the fruit, and God himself told them not to eat it or they would not be happy anymore, what does that say? To us as readers thousands of years later?

STOP EATING FROM THIS FUCKING TREE!!!!!!

There is no absolute right or wrong, people. Karma is based on the INDIVIDUAL's PERCEPTION of what is right and what is wrong. Humans have no business telling other humans what is right or wrong. If we eliminate these words from our vocabulary, we will be more in tune with the flow of life. Right and wrong should not exist.

[CharcolFlame]

Originally posted by paraflux

There is no absolute right or wrong, people. Karma is based on the INDIVIDUAL's PERCEPTION of what is right and what is wrong. Humans have no business telling other humans what is right or wrong. If we eliminate these words from our vocabulary, we will be more in tune with the flow of life. Right and wrong should not exist.
"some one told me 1nce that theres no rite or rong punishment is just for those hoo dare to cross the line" the songs kinda not on this topic but tru lyrics nothaless anywhays since we cant proov that god exists or dont exist we shud accept evolution and not make such a fucken big deel over every lil fucken thing sed in the torah/ bible/ koran/ whatever the only reeson we think god exists is kuz we need a unified being to worship why cant we all just worship tool music jk lol but seriously no offence to u religious pples (im jewish but i dont beelive in that shit that they tell us in hebru school) rethink some of ur beliefs if u hav the time

[ShackledEidolon]

Im not exactly a religious person but I've always found that science and religion agree on everything however people will balk at the notion of the big bang or evolution. It makes no sense to me particularly after looking at what we know of the universes evolution into what we see today...its almost exactly what the Bible says occured. I find the big bang - bible idea far more compelling then simply one or the other independantly.

Paraflux though typically we are in agreeance I have to ask about your belief that not knowing is better then knowing. This sounds almost like the old ignorance is bliss idea and I have a hard time accepting that. I tend to connect the story of the tree of good and evil as the evolution of the sentient mind. Morality doesnt exist until we are capable of rational thought. Once we became capable of thinking abstractly we able to create concepts such as life and death good and evil future and past...etc...and though in fact these things may turn out to be lies it is still in my opinion better to have the capacity to recognize that these things are lies rather then simply living without them.

[George Bush Sr.]

quotes from the new american bible:

then god said: "let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."
genesis 1:26

the the lord god said: "see! the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing what is good and what is bad!"
genesis 3:22

hints at more than one god, just wanted your reaction to this

(quotes from the king james version are different, please post them if you have that version)

[ShackledEidolon]

Well part of that may be due to the fact that Christianity was originally born from a polytheistic religion. Could also be referring to the Elohim (angels) and saying that they share in this divine ability of sentience...or even that God being the sum of all things was recognizing that he is part of all things and therefore not "I" but rather "us"...then again I could be totally wrong

[paraflux]

Originally posted by ShackledEidolon

Paraflux though typically we are in agreeance I have to ask about your belief that not knowing is better then knowing. This sounds almost like the old ignorance is bliss idea and I have a hard time accepting that. I tend to connect the story of the tree of good and evil as the evolution of the sentient mind. Morality doesnt exist until we are capable of rational thought. Once we became capable of thinking abstractly we able to create concepts such as life and death good and evil future and past...etc...and though in fact these things may turn out to be lies it is still in my opinion better to have the capacity to recognize that these things are lies rather then simply living without them.

This, although sounding like it, is NOT about ignorance is bliss. It's about not mattering anymore. Karma is based on the individual's perceptions of right and wrong, not an absolute decree of right and wrong that is the same for everyone across the board. Before man, do you think there was right and wrong? Do the animals live by what they think the consequences are going to be if they fuck up? It's not about being ignorant. We have done the tree, we have been through the concepts and understand that to do harm to others is to do harm to ourselves. We are all connected. Thats the Golden Rule, and the one Karma works by. We know that now. In accordance with the three development stages of humans, we are about to enter the third. Part of this may require getting back to roots, meaning pure spiritual energy roots, the ones that created the universe. If we can do that, then simply living so as to not harm others (therefore hurting ourselves) will take the place of laws and the concepts of right and wrong. Of course this is like a utopian concept. And those only work when the population is dwindled considerably than it is now. I dont think the Earth was meant to house so many people. It is our responsibility to keep that in check, or the Earth herself will through natural disasters.
Anyway, I dont see it as being about ignorance is bliss. It's more about Super knowledge makes everything else seem petty.

[paraflux]

Originally posted by George Bush Sr.
quotes from the new american bible:

then god said: "let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."
genesis 1:26

the the lord god said: "see! the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing what is good and what is bad!"
genesis 3:22

hints at more than one god, just wanted your reaction to this

(quotes from the king james version are different, please post them if you have that version)

Although I do not trust translators, if this is what is truly said I just take it as a more connected approach instead of an individual one. Of course God would say ONE OF US. For we were many.

[dissonance51765]

Man was created. That's all we know at this point......

Well, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil existed in this Garden they lived in, the one tree they were not supposed to touch. Satan got them to eat the fruit because then they would be as smart as God. THAT WAS A LIE!!!!! It had nothing to do with being smart. It was the knowledge that we could DISTINGUISH between good and evil, right and wrong. If they were perfectly happy before they ate the fruit, and God himself told them not to eat it or they would not be happy anymore, what does that say? To us as readers thousands of years later?

STOP EATING FROM THIS FUCKING TREE!!!!!!

There is no absolute right or wrong, people. Karma is based on the INDIVIDUAL's PERCEPTION of what is right and what is wrong. Humans have no business telling other humans what is right or wrong. If we eliminate these words from our vocabulary, we will be more in tune with the flow of life. Right and wrong should not exist.

First of all, we do not KNOW anything. That is the most pretentious thing you can possibily say in an argument about religion.

Next: The story of the Tree of Knowledge is total bullshit and is so fundamentally flawed I cannot believe people can still believe in it. Let me ask you this: If Adam and Eve were totally ignorant and had no perception of good and evil, how the fuck are they supposed to know the Serpent is evil? They were easily decieved by a superior being. More importantly, HOW THE FUCK ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO KNOW GOD IS GOOD? Furthermore, if the Serpent is evil, it was created by God and therefore He brought the evil deceptive creature to his beloved humans and allowed it to decieve them. God set us up to fail, and then blamed it on us. One would think all these blaring inconsistancies in the Bible would eventually lead one to the realization that it has no basis in divinity (The Judeo-Christian God is a lie). Also, if God wanted us all to be ignorant, what business do you have listening to Tool? I would definately consider that to be continued eating from the Tree.

Also, you claim there is no right and wrong, but every fucking page in the Bible is dedicated to teaching you right and wrong (or at least the authors' perception of right and wrong). I agree that humans can't tell each other right and wrong, but the religion Christians are claiming to follow does not agree. Have you ever looked at some of the laws God lays down in the Bible? Yeah, there are more then the Ten Commandments (which at one point, Jesus doesn't even know the Ten Commandments correctly, signifying the undivine hand that wrote the Bible. Mark 10:19. Thou shalt not defraud? That's NOT one of them). Read the book of Leviticus to see more of God's definition of right and wrong. And don't read one of the newer translations, because they fucking sugarcoat everything and don't come close to getting the same point across. It says that if two men have sex with each other, both are to be KILLED, and their blood is on their own hands.
To Chrsitians: Do you believe in killing homosexuals? I don't. Your God says it is right. Will you oppose him? You should, it will be the first step away from the lies into a larger, truer world where you think for yourself instead of adhering blindly to a religion that has been beaten into your head by society since you were born.

If you disagree with me, please counter my points.

PS: On a funnier note, the Top Ten Reasons BEER is Better Than JESUS: http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/beer.htm

[dissonance51765]

I'll be the first reloges person too say it......

evolution is not blasphemy(sp)!! the bible says that God crated man it never said how. Evolution sais that man evolued form a lesser man not a chimp. as for Adam and Eve that has ben proven genitickly(sp).

In the context of the Bible, evolution IS blasphemy. It contradicts everything in Genesis. Biblical scholars and religious leaders say that the Bible should be taken LITERALLY. Here is a rule on reading the Bible quoted by Hal Lindsey, a Christian religious writer: "take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning."

The Bible most certainly DOES say how man was created...
Genesis 2:7 - "then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground" Not from a lesser man, not from a monkey, not from an ape. And instantly, during that one day, not over millions of years. Evolution contradicts the Bible- their is no way around it

Also the Bible taken literally says that the world was created in seven days. Many Christians (namely Fundamentalists) believe that the Earth is about 12,000 years old. Literally, with the literal meaning of a year. They believe that. They pieced together the lifespans of people in the Bible and have determined that. They do not believe in evolution. They do not believe that DINOSAURS ever lived on Earth. What about all the fossils? "God put those here to test our faith" ?!?!?!?!?!?! Doesn't it bother you that God is fucking with our heads?

I took that entire last paragraph from comedian Bill Hicks. Bill Hicks is featured at the beginning of the album version of Third Eye (drugs have done good things) and is pictured in the liner notes of Aenima as a "dead hero". Tool considers his ideas right and his jokes very true. Deep down, on some level, Fundamentalist Christians (though they deny it, even to themselves) have to admit he's right.

They are afraid to face the unknown. Human beings are afraid and decided to create a God in which to mask and deny their fears. Christians who believe in evolution are not true Christians. But that's a good thing, because true Christians are decieving themselves.

Take the step...open the Third Eye

But always remember that there is a Fourth Eye, and a Fifth and infinately many because the Truth is infinite, and cannot be defined in words in any book.

[reddish]

The Bible most certainly DOES say how man was created...
Genesis 2:7 - "then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground" Not from a lesser man, not from a monkey, not from an ape. And instantly, during that one day, not over millions of years. Evolution contradicts the Bible- their is no way around it

Also the Bible taken literally says that the world was created in seven days. Many Christians (namely Fundamentalists) believe that the Earth is about 12,000 years old.
They are afraid to face the unknown. Human beings are afraid and decided to create a God in which to mask and deny their fears. Christians who believe in evolution are not true Christians. But that's a good thing, because true Christians are decieving themselves.

Why would you take the bible literally, when it's most important philosophers/leaders, always talked in parables. That's the kind of silly thing I'd expect from Catholics, though. Don't trust Catholics though, they're crazy and they'll molest you. Also, don't trust Fundamentalists, they explode.

I always thought that the book of Genesis allows for evolution. The only the things He takes special attention to are people: "then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground" He just kind made the other animals haphazardly. Of course the Old Testament is almost as vague as Nostradamus, so you can take it alot of ways.


"Read the book of Leviticus to see more of God's definition of right and wrong. And don't read one of the newer translations, because they fucking sugarcoat everything and don't come close to getting the same point across. It says that if two men have sex with each
other, both are to be KILLED, and their blood is on their own hands. To Chrsitians: Do you believe in killing homosexuals? I don't. Your God says it is right. Will you oppose him? You should, it will be the first step away from the lies into a larger, truer world where you think for yourself instead of adhering blindly to a religion that has been beaten into your head by society since you were born. If you disagree with me, please counter my points."

THEIR god, The churches throughout history have used fear to control the people. That's what the writer of Leviticus said, not God.

[learist]

OK, first of all, the fact that you all believe in evolution is as bad as believing in the bible. Science has never proven its existance, and yet it is hammered into our brains in school as an absolute fact.
Second of all, if you watch the lunar landing ever, you might notice a long antenea sticking down out of one of the landers legs. It was designed so that if the anntenea did not break before the lander got to the surface, it would shoot the lander back into space. This was because scientist had figured that dust accumulates on the moon at a regular rate(about 10,000 tons per year). There should have been several feet of dust. When they landed, TO THERE SURPRISE, there was less than an inch. So, these scientist took that amount of dust and figured that the moon is actually about 10,000 years old. Does that mean the Earth is that young?

If I may recomebd a book that I am sure you all will enjoy:
"The 12th Planet" by: Zecharia Sitchen

Go get it and read it. It makes everything makes sense. It links the bible with roman mythology with sumarian and babolonian "mythology." Seriously, you should all give it a look.

[dissonance51765]

I always thought that the book of Genesis allows for evolution. The only the things He takes special attention to are people: "then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground" He just kind made the other animals haphazardly. Of course the Old Testament is almost as vague as Nostradamus, so you can take it alot of ways.
..........................
THEIR god, The churches throughout history have used fear to control the people. That's what the writer of Leviticus said, not God.

What do you mean he made to other animals haphazardly? How does that affect anything? You seem to be implying that humans are the only species that has evolved, which is not what the theory of evolution states.

What do you mean by THEIR god? Christianity in general?

The writer of Leviticus (and all the rest of the Bible) is speaking for God. The entire Bible is "God's word." You can't pick and choose which parts you want to believe. You either follow everything, or you are not pure and faithful in God's eyes. I hate how Christians just choose to ignore stuff in the Bible, and want to mold everything else that doesn't make sense (like evolution/creation, for example. When Genesis was written, the people who were "creating God" had no clue of evolution or the scientific origins of the Earth. Now we've found out a lot more and we are pretty sure that the Earth is A LOT older than the Bible says, so people today have to change the meaning of the Bible to prevent it from being insanely wrong. This means people are distorting the Word of God (I don't think He would appreciate that). Its totally insane - quit trying to change the Bible to make it mean what you believe - just have your beliefs on your own, outside of "God" and organized religions.

[dissonance51765]

OK, first of all, the fact that you all believe in evolution is as bad as believing in the bible. Science has never proven its existance, and yet it is hammered into our brains in school as an absolute fact.


I never said I believe in evolution. I just stated that evolution and Creationism create a conflict of belief.

However, there is visible, tangible, logical evidence for evolution, which is a lot more than you say about Creationism. But I agree, there is no way to absolutely trust science either. Hell, only a little more than 500 years ago they thought the Earth was flat.

Now its round......or IS it?

PS: My college library doesn't have that book but I'm ordering it interlibrary. I hope I get a chance to read it.

[paraflux]

Creationism and evolution do not conflict with each other. We have just blown it up as such, because the hardcore christians believe the literal story of Genesis. There is no reason why the two explanations cannot go hand in hand. At the time of the writing of Genesis, there was no science, the only way to explain things was through stories and metaphors. If God works in mysterious ways, why then cant evolution be a part of His ways? Christians teach themselves that they are too insignificant to understand the Will and Plan of God, how then can they say that they know what God's plan ISN'T? Evolutionists, if they give no credit to the stories of the bible for being just what they are, stories, are just as guilty.

[dissonance51765]

Christians teach themselves that they are too insignificant to understand the Will and Plan of God.

That's what's fucked up. I bow to no God unless he/she/it comes to me in person and gives me logical reason to believe.

In part, what I'm trying to say is that the Bible does not paint a picture of a God that I deem worthy of my worship, even if He did exist. The Bible tells you to bow to God because of his power (all this "infinite love" it claims is never conclusively shown, just stated), and that's fucked up. People bowed to Hitler because of his power. And that's where the writers of the Bible have failed. You'd think that, taking religion's Sacred Book to be true, the God and religion would at least look appealing.

[neochrist]

first of all, the bible is a book, you can not take everything in any book for face value, just because its the bible doesn't mean its free of metaphors, thats one thing i never understand. it was written by man so therefore can not be the so called truth of God. first of all, i believe that the bible does not contradict evolution, its just the way the text is interpreted, God said the earth was created in seven days, maybe he doesnt actually mean seven of our days, maybe each day was a billion years, and the part about men coming from the dust, maybe the dust is a metaphor for whatever we did come from. i'd also like to discuss this

"then god said: "let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."
genesis 1:26

the the lord god said: "see! the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing what is good and what is bad!"
genesis 3:22"

in my belief, we are all God, every organism on this planent and in this universe is God, though humans seem to be the only animals capable of right and wrong on this planent, and God seems to be the ultimate decider of right and wrong if there is such a thing. so maybe what is meant is that men will be like gods in the ability to distinguish between the two, to have morality.

[reddish]

What do you mean he made to other animals haphazardly? How does that affect anything? You seem to be implying that humans are the only species that has evolved, which is not what the theory of evolution states.

What do you mean by THEIR god? Christianity in general?

I meant that it only states that there was a plan and a specific design for people, so proving that animals evolved is irrelevant, to whether or not creationism is true. You'd have to prove that people evolved from monkeys to disprove creationism.

THEIR god from the song Judith. That kind of Hitler/Santa Claus god.


The writer of Leviticus (and all the rest of the Bible) is speaking for God. The entire Bible is "God's word." You can't pick and choose which parts you want to believe. You either follow everything, or you are not pure and faithful in God's eyes. I hate how Christians just choose to ignore stuff in the Bible, and want to mold everything else that doesn't make sense (like evolution/creation, for example. When Genesis was written, the people who were "creating God" had no clue of evolution or the scientific origins of the Earth. Now we've found out a lot more and we are pretty sure that the Earth is A LOT older than the Bible says, so people today have to change the meaning of the Bible to prevent it from being insanely wrong. This means people are distorting the Word of God (I don't think He would appreciate that). Its totally insane - quit trying to change the Bible to make it mean what you believe - just have your beliefs on your own, outside of "God" and organized religions.
Telling me what I do and do not believe, when you haven't even met me? Now who's more of a christian.

Also: Why are you telling people what god thinks, when you act like he's imiginary.

[learist]

Although I do not trust translators,

This is not for you. ;-)

i'd also like to discuss this

"then god said: "let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."
genesis 1:26

the the lord god said: "see! the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing what is good and what is bad!"
genesis 3:22"

The book I recomended earlier explains these as well as:

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them."
Genesis 6:4

Who were the Nephilim? The book explains it using texts left to us by the oldest recorded civilization on Earth. Again it is
"The 12th Planet"
By: Zecharia Sitchen

[dissonance51765]

Telling me what I do and do not believe, when you haven't even met me? Now who's more of a christian.

Also: Why are you telling people what god thinks, when you act like he's imiginary.

I never pinned beliefs or nonbeliefs on anyone here, I'm just pointing out some common beliefs some people have in which there is conflict and an effort (whether conscious or subconscious) to interpret the Bible to mean what they want it to mean, even if what they want it to mean seems to go against the likely original meanings.

I have to speak of God as if He were real to point out the absurdities that exist in the belief that he is real. I guess my goal kind of is to point out some of the things God "thinks" in order for people somehow realize that 'God is an asshole,' so to speak, and does not merit following. I come from the point of view that the God of Christianity is imaginary (a manifestation of fear, see an earlier post of mine), BUT, an important step in realizing God is imaginary is to question his authority. Of course in the Tool song there is "Think for yourself. Question authority." In the case of Christianity, God is the authority. If God does exist as Christianity presents him, before we can follow and worship him, we first must determine His worthiness. Now, most Christians take for granted God's ultimate Justice and infinite Love. THAT is following blindly. The examples I used in earlier posts about Genesis and Leviticus are a form of questioning that common Christian assupmtion. And there is no way I can persuade Christians to see my point of view unless I speak from a hypothetical assumption of God's exsitence. No Christian would take me seriously if I said "God is a lie and that is final" so I'm trying to use the approach of "Here are some examples that God is not what you may think..." If I set myself up in a corner, that will prevent any argument and discussion, and nothing will be accomplished. Even if you don't agree with my points, I hope you can at least in part understand my approach.


On a side note, no one has mentioned my point regarding the fundamental flaws with the Tree of Knowledge story as a story. I think my point was pretty basic but I've never heard of anyone saying the same thing. Does anyone agree or disagree?

[dissonance51765]

I do not trust translators

In terms of translations of religious books, you shouldn't trust translaters. With the Bible, the translation will be affected by what the translator wants to believe it means. Here are two examples:

In Leviticus, the oldest translations (and the original Hebrew, if I am not mistaken) point out very clearly the death penalty for homosexuality. In newer translations, the punishment for homosexuality is completed ommitted. This is due to that, in modern society, homosexuality is quite commonplace. Human beings have evolved since Biblical days to the point where they accept homosexuality, so the translation has to reflect that, lest we notice that Christianity is an archaic and outdated system.

The New Testament was originally written in Greek. In our versions it says "servant" of God. The word used in original Greek is translated more literally as "slave." Hmmmm....we can't have people thinking they are slaves, since we have also evolved past that idea.

[learist]

With the Bible, the translation will be affected by what the translator wants to believe it means.

" The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Gods came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown."
Genesis 6:4

In the early Hebrew versions of this verse, the part about: "These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.", it originally said only the word,"Shem", instead of,"men of renown." Translators had no English equivilant to this word. It is a word with roots in the launguage of the sumarian culture. I am sorry I keep going on about this book, but you really should read it.

[El_chupacabras]

quotes from the new american bible:

then god said: "let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."
genesis 1:26

the the lord god said: "see! the man has become like ONE OF US, knowing what is good and what is bad!"
genesis 3:22

hints at more than one god, just wanted your reaction to this

(quotes from the king james version are different, please post them if you have that version)

I'd just like to let you know that according to those quotes it is not refering to god its refering to the holy trinity which is the father the sun and the holy spirit, which is technically god becuase god basically has split personalities each of which is one of god's split personalities.

[dissonance51765]

I'd just like to let you know that according to those quotes it is not refering to god its refering to the holy trinity which is the father the sun and the holy spirit, which is technically god becuase god basically has split personalities each of which is one of god's split personalities.


I'd just like to let you know that those quotes are from Genesis, way before Jesus was ever born. In the context of the Bible: God had no Son until made Jesus. He made Jesus for the purpose of saving man from their sins. At the time of the Creation, man would have had no sins and there was no reason to concieve of a savior. So how could it be refering to Jesus? Also, it was written by Jews, who did not even believe in Jesus. That cannot refer to the Holy Trinity.