Death...my view, and hopefully yours

[Matteran]

I've thought about this quite a bit, mainly because this comes up a lot in life. What happens when one dies?

This is my thought on this (in my scientist/trying to find some spirituality in myself, sort of way). When one dies, a void is reached, rather, a timeless void. When you have a dreamless sleep, and you wake up seemingly the exact moment you fall asleep, well, you experience a sort of timelessness. If our feeble minds can even begin to try and imagine living in a universe in which the fourth dimension is no longer travelled through, well, then you can see where I'm going. It may seem very dark, and hopeless, but there's no possibility for any feelings at all, because you no longer travel through time, infact, there is no you.

That's one aspect of it. The other is that when you die, you release your energy, or spirit. No energy can be destroyed, or created, so basically, I believe that your spiritual energy dissipates off into the universe, so while you are trapped in a timeless void, you still maintain a sort of conciousness. I really have no idea as to how to begin describing it. But your spirit is still connected with your body, yet your body it useless. So a small part of you goes off into the universe, in no organized fashion. This part of my theory may be really hard to grasp, but, most things of this sort are.

Thanks for reading. If you would like to try and make sense of my thoughts, or share your own, please feel free.

[MahdHatre]

Though my faith isnt placed in any organied religion including Buddhism, I think its very possible that we will be reincarnated after we face death. And this is coming from a scientific frame of thought. Reading Terrence McKenna has led me to believe that multiple dimensions do exist, and that we are aliens stuck in one of em. There are two things that can happen to us after death; life and death. And since we've already died once, I'd choose life. Now we have to choose a dimension; heaven, hell, purgatory, and unknown. Now being ignorant as we people are, what makes this different from any other decision? So in choosing unknown, I rule out the other three. Hence reincarnation, yet I don't think this is quite the word I'm looking for, for it suggests humans coming back in our current diminsion, and that would make it known, which we don't. Let me know whatchya think.

[Rice]

I used to believe in reincarnation. that you will be given a second chance to make changes to your first life..or whatever. but now I believe that you will be in a paradise (or what you consider a paradise, be it your room, the mall, wherever...not necessarily Heaven) where you can just relax for the rest of eternity and not have to worry about paying bills or whatever. Although I'm still fond of reincarnation, but most people who believe in reincarnation don't believe that there is a God (or higher being for you agnostics) then how would you explain yourself being reincarnated? who would do reincarnate you? Religion is so damn complex.

[Misanthrope]

...You rot in a grave, your brain stops functioning, and you cease to exist mentally.

[kill_me]

well.. as much as id like to believe in reincarnation and heaven and hell and everything, the world has become much to scientific for my liking... I've pretty much ruled out the possibility or god and satan.. and ive come to the decesion that the only real truth is science.. i mean, adam and eve has been proven wrong by evolution, god creating the universe has been proven wrong by the big bang theory.. so theres not much left to believe in... I think that we are born, we are put on the earth to experience... then we die.. thats why personally, I have chosen to experience everything i can, in every perspective i can... because afer death, maggots eat your flesh and you decompose.. thats it.. i think the soul is just an interpretation of conciousness

[damnable]

Originally posted by kill_me
well.. as much as id like to believe in reincarnation and heaven and hell and everything, the world has become much to scientific for my liking... I've pretty much ruled out the possibility or god and satan.. and ive come to the decesion that the only real truth is science.. i mean, adam and eve has been proven wrong by evolution, god creating the universe has been proven wrong by the big bang theory.. so theres not much left to believe in... I think that we are born, we are put on the earth to experience... then we die.. thats why personally, I have chosen to experience everything i can, in every perspective i can... because afer death, maggots eat your flesh and you decompose.. thats it.. i think the soul is just an interpretation of conciousness

Merely to play devil's advocate, I would like to say that no conclusive evidence has been produced to prove either evolution nor the big bang theory. I would like to add that science used to believe that the world was flat and that drilling holes in people's heads was a way to cure illness. I tend to agree with evolution and the big bang theories, but they are theories, nonetheless.

My personal feelings on death is based on my own opinion and is not backed up by any religion or science that I know of and is subject to change. We only use twenty percent of our brain cells, right? And some of that is taken up by basic life functions, such as breathing, digestion, etc. Before the physical body dies, the brain is conscious for some microseconds at the very least. I believe that the brain knows just before it is going to die, lets go of life functioning systems and instinctually puts all of its energy toward reorganizing and categorizing experiences and sensations that it has stored over a lifetime. Which is why you shouldn't waste time remembering shit now and you should go out and have as many experiences as possible: you get to sort through all of that shit later. Maybe it sounds stupid to you, but it explains much for me.

[MahdHatre]

You know, I'd forgotten about the 20% thing. Here's my thoughts. Lets say breathing, etc is 2% (likely more however, but maybe it's 22%), male female - left and right , so divide that by two, u get <9%, so at anyone time, you only use a max 9% for a task. So then WTF are we doing with the other 91%!!! If humans only use <9% at one time, wtf does god use? Or aliens? Either this 20% isnt proven accurately, or
People = Shit. j/k So now thi statement, if a fact, leads me to believe that we have got a whole lot of history ahead of us, before we can even fuckin realize that hisory isnt even neccessary. Evolution I can believe, even if god does exist on some realm, but big bang theory is simply that, a theory. An absurd one at that. And Rice, what about the Evil Paradox? A child-rapist will get to chill at a TOOL concert for the rest of eternity? Here, I'm also uncertain, while trying not to sound Buddhist, I suggest Karma. And I don't think of it as a second chance, but the task of carrying on existence as long as I possibly can.

Re:Misanthrope
I also ceased to exist mentally before I was born.

[3rd eye]

hmmm, this is a very interseting topic, especially to read actual Tool fan's thoughts. I say that because I have always wondered about this subject if Tool themselves seem to proclaim a materialistic view of life, or idealistic. I believe more in idealism.....
even though science is proving to be progressive in knowledge and new paradigms are trying to reconstruct religious theories in particular how the universe was created, well that's all very well and good, but it doesn't rule out God because we can class all this new knowledge under 'science', but uhhh, isn't science just a natural progression for this time and age, where the only difference is we are more technologically advanced to provide possible explanations, for ie say the big bang, but nothing is definite as nothing was definite with religion as science still hasn't proven what was "BEFORE" the big bang. In other words, this reinforces my thoughts that God was still responsible for everything science can explain, I meen, just because of the strong explanatory will science has these days, doesn't rule out a large amount of controversial and disputed questions, such as what happens when we die? ........NO FUCKING IDEA; BUT - maybe mankind was never meant to know, and that this very fact was the point........."until we know", so I very much doubt we ever will know, so why don't we keep being existentialists and try to live for everything imaginable and that can be experienced, because; maybe if we don't and waste 60% of our lives being lazy, we've probably fucked up.

p.s. Plato's concept of the soul and life after death might be of interest to you guys, basically, a "form" cannot admit to its opposite, ie odd will never admit to even, or hot to cold, therefore soul cannot admit to death, therefore is indestructable, immortal and eternal..........hmmmmm

[Matter Specter]

there is not concious after life . _

we are mater, tiny atomic particals moving at unimaginable speed, when we decay they simply leave our bodys and go somewhere else.

reincarnation in other earthly things, not human after human, and not conciously

[aeternus0]

I have been struggling with the concept of God ever since I became old enough to question what I had been taught not to. I found it eventually becomes impossible to question God without undermining virtually all the other fundamentals of existence - Life and Death especially. How can one reject God without rejecting those things too, or at least changing them beyond recognition?

When it got right down to it, it was fear of Death, or of ceasing to exist altogether that made it so hard to let go of God and truly let myself explore all the possibilities. Although far from finished, this exploration has led me to some interesting thoughts.

The word "God", I believe, is what must be abandoned, for it implies a conscious, personal being living in some alternate dimension. Why must this be the case? Does the source of all this energy, the driving force behind the universe, need to be sentient? Can not the very majesty of this natural world be taken as the creative force in and of itself, the womb of all Life?

We are not separate from the universe, we are an intrisic PART of it, the embodyment of creation. Of course, if our lives are thought of as distinct, fleeting shells of nothing but our own egos, we are bound to be driven to seek out eternal Life and to fear Death in every form, because Death, we think, is the END.

Death is not the end - we are fleeting, but we are nonetheless manifestations of what is already eternal, the incredible universe that is all around us and permeates EVERY SINGLE THING. The illusion that we are separate from this eternal flow is the only real Hell.

The world is transient, constantly changing. The sun rises, the seasons pass, the moon grows, then shrinks, the mountains rise, then fall ... friends leave, relationships change, the very stars above us shift, and the sun sets. When our physical bodies stop functioning; when our heart ceases its beat and our brains die ... this is just another change. And, just as the sun is never destroyed when it sets, we are not gone, but simply merged back into ... well ... EVERYTHING.

We are so much more than what we have. Think about it - we say MY body, MY mind, even MY soul. We possess those aspects of ourselves, but should never let them define us, or else we risk losing touch with the reality our true selves.

[MahdHatre]

I believe we have the potential to know the unknown, or controversial. My post in There is no "GOD"

*!*Applaude*!* Excellent post. And you're right, its nothing to get worked-up on right now. But the most impactful thing on my mind right now, is the % of how much brain-power we use. Keep in mind, this is relevant to current discussion. Breaking it down, we use aprox. 9% of our brain at one time to tackle tasks and cognitive thinking, about 20% altogether, leaving 80% completely useless to us in 2003. What happens when, (assuming that humanity takes a break from dreams and faces reality) it goes from 9, to lets say 18. We would have doubled our intelligence, still leaving about 60% not used. But just imagine it doubling, everything we have done up to this point would be obsolete to a degree. McKenna seems to think it is possible that shrooms are an alien species, he has stated it is scientifically possible for the spores to survive space travel, and is not rulled out by time constraints, meaning it CAN happen. Well, now I believe this issue is to thought-provoking to scratch here, so ill take it to letters.

What kind at catalyst would we need to 'double' our intelligence. I'm gonna let you guess... Though the only one I've done is *...*, and McKenna clearly states that *...* is too different than others to achieve this sate, for it is *...*. I really don't think we will go anywhere by just wanting or saying something like, "OK brain, lets be smarter than everyone else, oh, and never mind that it hasnt been done in, umm, forever." But we don't know even that, unless we measure every single person's brain% on the planet. And who better to give us this 'catalyst' then the one bein that everyone wants to see but at the same time will not believe it easily. But what if, we are never goin to see it, not because it doesnt exist, but because it is in camoflauge, and we see it in our minds instead? Does anyone know wtf I'm getting at? I'll say it again, "And we see it in our minds instead?"

[MahdHatre]

BEEP

Psychedelics.

We all expect aliens to speak telpathically, right? So, if I were an alien and wanted to communicate to a species that hasn't and is not able to at this point develope telepathic skills, but for now didn't want them all to know, how would I do it? So why would it not want us all to know, why not just fly in and land on te white house? Perhaps they don't exist in the same dimension we do. Not to mention a light year is a very long way to travel, and remember Einstein? And a single light year isnt even 1% the distance from the unknown. And if we all knew anyways, shit, I can't even imagine it. There would be too many thoughts in our heads. Well, that's something for you to feed on.

[flipmojo]

All this science is making me ill. What happened to wisdom? Science is man manipulating whatever he can get his hands on. Science is arrogant. I believe it is necessary for us to teach and develop sciences to improve our knowledge as a body of people. But to try and determine the fate of mankind, based on science, is foolish and arrogant.

Go out and learn to love something genuinely. Open up your heart to something and become completely vunerable. Somewhere between those lines are the answers to our purpose.

[MahdHatre]

Science is arrogant, and it is also an admireable quality to have if you expect whole civilizations to believe it. I'm not after science, I'm after truth. We all know the bullshit that was once "proven" by scientists back in the day. So how do you propse we determine the fate of mankind? Hopefully not by religion?! Or do you suggest that we don't, at least in our lifetime? Believe me, I'm just as soon to say, "Fuck it, doesnt make any difference, why should we bother." It's only until recently I've begun to even think about this shit.

"I certainly hope we will, because its a bullshit three ringed circus sideshow of freaks."

[kill_me]

Originally posted by damnable


Merely to play devil's advocate, I would like to say that no conclusive evidence has been produced to prove either evolution nor the big bang theory. I would like to add that science used to believe that the world was flat and that drilling holes in people's heads was a way to cure illness. I tend to agree with evolution and the big bang theories, but they are theories, nonetheless.

My personal feelings on death is based on my own opinion and is not backed up by any religion or science that I know of and is subject to change. We only use twenty percent of our brain cells, right? And some of that is taken up by basic life functions, such as breathing, digestion, etc. Before the physical body dies, the brain is conscious for some microseconds at the very least. I believe that the brain knows just before it is going to die, lets go of life functioning systems and instinctually puts all of its energy toward reorganizing and categorizing experiences and sensations that it has stored over a lifetime. Which is why you shouldn't waste time remembering shit now and you should go out and have as many experiences as possible: you get to sort through all of that shit later. Maybe it sounds stupid to you, but it explains much for me.

ok.. thats acceptable.. but my main point still stands that I don't believe that theres anything after death.. and I would much rather experience everything (like you pointed out) than believe in something than wasting your life believing in something you dont even know is there.

[Ahnijson_films]

Originally posted by MahdHatre
You know, I'd forgotten about the 20% thing. Here's my thoughts. Lets say breathing, etc is 2% (likely more however, but maybe it's 22%), male female - left and right , so divide that by two, u get <9%, so at anyone time, you only use a max 9% for a task. So then WTF are we doing with the other 91%!!! If humans only use <9% at one time,

This is a statistic psychologists made up during the earlier 1920s when Psychology was just becoming truly popular. A psychologist (I forget his name) created all these "tests" to see how much brain power humans used, made this big theory, and got himself published and et cetera, when really it was all just bogus. Unfortunately, everyone thought it was true, and has been handed down ever since. Here's the problem with that - we have no way of knowing exactly how much our brains can "learn" or "use" or whatever. If there is no way to judge 100% brainpower, there is no way to judge what percentage of it we are using. It's like trying to say what percent is 5 of infinity? Impossible to conclude.
I hate being argumentative, and I'm not meaning to be, I just thought I would throw that in there to help with this understanding thing.

Oh, and I agree, you die, you rot, you no longer exist. But I also believe a bit in Buddhism (not reincarnation, that's not really what Buddhism is about... but I digres)

[Ahnijson_films]

Originally posted by damnable

the brain is conscious for some microseconds at the very least.

I am so sorry, I am really not trying to be a jerk and put people down or anything at all, I just noticed this and wanted to put what I've learned about this -

after the body dies (heart and breathing stop) the brain can survive around 6 minutes or so. This is evident in the fact that people "die", their hearts stop, their breathing stops, and they are revived with no problems. Because the brain can survive for around 6 minutes with no blood flow, no oxygen, and still basically be okay.
And just for fun - I have a friend that had a ruptured apendix and she died in the hospital for 4 1/2 minutes before they finally revived her. She came out 100% okay, no memory loss, nothing at all wrong. And she didn't see a light, and she didn't hear voices. nothing. Just like being asleep, only like being really deeply asleep. So there you go, straight from the mouth of a dead chick.

[DonBrazi]

[i]Originally posted by kill_me
I just thought it interesting that you have formulated the opinion that science has proven things, namely evolution and creation, after looking at 'evidence' like..."the big bang theory..." etc. I always thought that theories were theories because they could not be proven; otherwise, they would be facts, not theories. But I could be wrong. However, if I am right, that such theories have never actually been proven(rather, they are the best possible explination that can be conjured up) then one should stay away from formulating ones own ideas based on them.

[psilomind]

As far as I'm concerned, life is a timeless void as well. We, as living matter, perceive reality only in moments. If we are space, and space is a product of time, without time, space no longer exists. Under the only currently possible conditions, time travels forwards (in relative terms), therefore the past (space) no longer exists. Memories and artifacts are our only real proof that the past has ever existed. So theoretically speaking, life is but a moment and our memory. Could this mean we're already dead? Is space just time's chaotic attempt to recreate what may have once existed?

Remember: GOD = TIME

[kill_me]

Originally posted by DonBrazi
[i]Originally posted by kill_me
I just thought it interesting that you have formulated the opinion that science has proven things, namely evolution and creation, after looking at 'evidence' like..."the big bang theory..." etc. I always thought that theories were theories because they could not be proven; otherwise, they would be facts, not theories. But I could be wrong. However, if I am right, that such theories have never actually been proven(rather, they are the best possible explination that can be conjured up) then one should stay away from formulating ones own ideas based on them.

well.. as much as id like to say something.. that exact same rebuttal has already been posted...

[Brihjenne]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Lots of things to reply to.

Why do you have to depend on God to reincarnate you? Reincarnate yourself, everyone else is. Our 'souls' or whatever you want to call it are eternal, right? We can probably do whatever we please. We have all of existance to play in.

Ok. I am not sure what exactly you meant by God = Time. If we had a point of no space or time we would have nothing but Now/here. We need time because I don't think our brains could handle every experience at once. How else can we experience not knowing something and wanting to find out? And maybe they aren't memories but are happening Now, and when you 'remember' you are experiencing that part of Now.

No one really knows if there's an intelligence out there that created us and participates or merely observes. We do know of our own experiences, however, and my experience tells me that my body is just that, a body. It's not who I am or what I am. When my body gets sick of it and quits, it's just atoms and matter. The person that I am, however, the source of the creation/experience of thought does not exist in this body. Bodies are focal points for experience. They are viewpoints.

As for the % of our brain that is being used, I think maybe my idea is backwards... I see people as having a soul, a subconscious and a conscious state. I don't see the concious state as creating the others, I see the soul using the unconcious to interpret the concious and vice versa. The soul doesn't completely come through, it merely filters through the subconscious and what comes through the filters placed by previous experience, making us who we appear to be. If the filter was more open, maybe we would use more of our brains. If the filter was completely open, letting our souls come through without the shaping of the filter... well who knows.

[aeternus0]

Just to clear up (hopefully) the whole evolution/bigbang thing ...

It is true that theories are just that - essentially well-educated (usually) guesses that may or may not be true. The Big Bang THEORY is an example of that - it is certainly not fact.

However, although evolution is called "The Theory of Evolution", this is misleading. When Darwin first proposed the idea, indeed it WAS a theory then. Since then, however, it has been proved dozens if not hundreds of times. The only reason it is still called a theory is because that phrase caught on.

In terms of space and time, I always thought it to be the opposite - not that time created space but rather that space creates time. Time is basically just a measure of change. When somethine changes, there needs to be some way of measuring the time in between. However, space and matter could theoretically exist without time, if they remained totally static and did not change at all.

In other words ... TIME = CHANGE

or at least that's how i see it.

[Matteran]

I guess I should try feeding into this massive post that I created. There seems to be a large disscussion about time, but no one seems to be even mentioning my idea, well, it's not mine, it's einstein's.

There are three main dimensions that we travel through. Up/Down, Left/Right, and Forward/Back. The fourth dimension has only one direction of movement, and that is forward. The fourth dimension is time. I'm really clueless about what God = Time is supposed to mean also. If someone could explain that it would be very interesting. If you want me to go into more detail about the fourth dimension, I would be glad to, but I thought I would try and throw that out again.

I'm really pleased with the responce, but unfortunately it's kind of turned into a disscussion about religion, and other people saying to reject it, and that's bullshit. This is a post where we just share, and try and make sense of our thoughts. So, only post if you want to expand on this subject please (cause i have ultimate power over the direction this post goes...).

[twix elbert]

Originally posted by Matteran
The fourth dimension has only one direction of movement, and that is forward. The fourth dimension is time. I'm really clueless about what God = Time is supposed to mean also. If someone could explain that it would be very interesting. If you want me to go into more detail about the fourth dimension, I would be glad to, but I thought I would try and throw that out again.

i'm no physics genius so please spare me the insults if i'm way wrong in what i'm saying:

according to quantum physics time isn't linear -- there is no such thing as past, present and future, only the eternal now. from what i've read all matter is really non-local, meaning that on the fundamental level, all matter in the universe is interconnected and infinite. for this to work the information particles "commmunicate" to one another either has to travel faster than the speed of light or time isn't linear so information travels instantly without delay.

i think that's what GOD=TIME means. god is eternity, not the future in relation to the past, but the forever now. time is just a construct of our minds. it's the sequence of one mental image to another, lose that and time no longer exists. on a quite literal level i believe we are the universe experiencing a small thing (ourselves). beyond space and into the void, time never existed cos time can only exist where there's space. the void is nowhere and everywhere because without space, there's no location.

you know on 3rd eye when bill hicks says, "today a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed through a slow vibration. we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively..." to me it used to be some cool acidhead thing to say. but now i realise that it's a lot truer than i first imagined. death is the liberation from our bodies and from physical reality. this is the real hell. i haven't drawn any conclusions about reincarnation etc.

but i'll stop wanking on now.

peace.

[Cronos]

My feeling is that we aren't meant to know what really happens after death.

We don't know now, so therefore we won't ever know. As long as we are here now living in our bodies we won't ever know what's beyond the conscious realm.

There's no way to prove reincarnation, because even if you have died before, and came back in another form, you wouldn't keep the memories from your past conscious life. So then we will just keep dying, and continue to reborn again in other forms until the end of time. To me, that would be torcher. You'd continue to die, and be reborn again, never knowing what truly happens after death because the cycle on continues to repeat itself. EVEN if there was some experience after death, you and I would never remember it. Because we would only be reborn again.

Now that's just if there was reincarnation. If there wasn't that's saying that after the conscious life there is something else to be experienced. But consciousness was around long before I came to be in this realm. So we would also have to wonder, what happens before this conscious life? Are we floating around in a realm of unconscious thoughts? Are we just mere thought? Did I, or did I not exist before I have come to exist in this realm? But again, if we did have our own will before we were placed into this conscious realm, we still don't even remember it. So what makes you think we will ever even know what happens after death if we don't know what went on before birth?

The fact and truth is we won't. We will NEVER know. That is why if this life is a gift, or we are put here to experience something, or experience life, then we should continue to experience it. Learn to love someone or something, start friendships, look at the world around you. Get outside and explore. Because this may be the last chance we can experience life in this realm. Live everyday of your life knowing that you may not be able to experience this again.

Not saying that it isn't interesting to think what could be beyond this life? What could be left for us to do after our bodies expire? But, for now everything on this thread is just speculation and nothing more.

All speculations were created from a biased viewpoint. Paradise by someone who doesn't exactly have everything going their way, doesn't have the greatest life to have, and looks forward to the fact that if they continue to live a good honest life, they will be rewarded with paradise.

Then reincarnation by those who don't want to think of the possibility of death, and ceasing to exist. Ala, no more being, no unconscious thoughts. You are erased. You don't even realize you've lived or died. They would rather be put back to this realm again.

Then there's more speculations by others viewpoints.

[twix elbert]

Originally posted by Cronos
There's no way to prove reincarnation, because even if you have died before, and came back in another form, you wouldn't keep the memories from your past conscious life.

young children have been reported to have the ability to remember their past lives to the extent that they have known the way they died, where they lived and their own past names. something to do with having a fresh mind etc.

past life regression therapy seems to recover lost memories as well. as too does LSD -- users have reported experiencing their own conception and any traumatic events during pregnancy, which they shoudn't have known given that their brain wasn't developed enough to remember things.

but when it comes down to it, reincarnation is something that won't been proven scientifically for some time (if it does occur at all).

The fact and truth is we won't. We will NEVER know

don't be quick to dismiss all possibilities. i used to feel like this until i read robert monroe's books on astral projection/OBEs. he argued that believing in an afterlife isn't very useful and that people need to convert beliefs into knowns before they're truly free. this can be done by astral projecting and experiencing what it's like to be a point of consciousness free from its body. from there one can visit other spirits, experience past lives and do other interesting stuff. +conduct experiments to validate the experience.

one day i'll project and one day i'll KNOW. and it's not as hard as it seems.

Paradise by someone who doesn't exactly have everything going their way, doesn't have the greatest life to have,

it's a natural human reflex to do this, but it doesn't change the fact that it could be "the way things are". no matter how good your life is, if all that lies on the other side is nothingness, i don't believe your life is worth anything. humanity's ulimate goal is as much a drive towards immortality as it is a struggle against death.

no life is truly that great without the inclusion of a greater divine plan because if it didn't, human experience would be empty, fleeting and ultimately meaningless. maybe i've got a bad attitude towards things, but to me, hell is existing when there's no real reason why you should.

[aeternus0]

Originally posted by Cronos
There's no way to prove reincarnation, because even if you have died before, and came back in another form, you wouldn't keep the memories from your past conscious life. So then we will just keep dying, and continue to reborn again in other forms until the end of time. To me, that would be torcher. You'd continue to die, and be reborn again, never knowing what truly happens after death because the cycle on continues to repeat itself. EVEN if there was some experience after death, you and I would never remember it. Because we would only be reborn again.


Two major world religions incorporate reincarnation - Hinduism and Buddhism. In Hinduism, this cycle of reincarnation is called samsara, and the ultimate goal of existence is to attain liberation from samsara ("mukti" or "moksha") and unite with the supreme God, Brahman. In Buddhism, although reincarnation is thought of slightly differently, Nirvana is again essentially a liberation from the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. Just something I thought I'd throw out there.

About that time thing, time being the fourth dimension, I agree. What I can't reconcile is why it is that this fourth dimension can only go one way - forward ... just because we haven't experienced it going any other way doesn't mean it can't. After all, as your speed approached the speed of light, time slows down. At the speed of light, time is stopped. Theoretically, then, if you could somehow exceed the speed of light, time should reverse direction.

Sounds like fun, huh?

[Cronos]

Truth is anyone can claim they'd experienced themselves in a past life. Through LSD means or just by seeing it in their mind. Doesn't at all mean it's real. Anyone can find out about a house that had a such and such name living there, that died of a sickness by hearing stories spread around, or hearing about it through someone else. Word does travel. I've seen these cases on TV through Discovery or something. That doesn't mean dick.

Ummm, I don't know much on that astral thing. I usually don't believe everything everyone tells me, and I don't believe in everything I read in a book.

I never discounted anything really. There COULD be paradise, and there COULD be reincarnation. There could be a number of many things. I can't really rule out anything because I have no proof, but I can't really rule in anything because I have no proof. Sounds like a typical scientist mentality, but I'm no scientist. Paradise was created by whomover, and everyone was born and raised in a religion that believed in Paradise or Heaven. After awhile religions changed to support their way of life and view on Paradise. Some believed to get in you had to lead a life of suffering, in order to ascend into Heaven, and have things easy. Some believed you couldn't have any pleasures, some believed that you should live it like you wanna live it because it's God's gift. There are a number of beliefs.

I didn't say that I believed nothingness was awaiting me after death. I personally don't know. If there was nothingness awaiting you after death I wouldn't go and say that it would mean there's no real reason to live. I would throw away everything that meaningless, and live life the way it should be lived. Knowing that I lived the way I wanted to before I died, and it all ended.

Personally, since time continues to move on, and everything moves with time I would think that we too move with time even in death. Our bodies decay, and our unconsciousness moves on, our thought goes on forever, the unconscious you, the repressed you, who you were before influences, and other's beliefs were forced into your personality and being. When you die, thing's don't stop, the world doesn't revolve around one person, so I wouldn't think that you would just stop existing and everything else would continue existing. I don't believe in no longer existing. You can break down an atom as much as you want, but you can never really destroy it can you? It just keeps getting smaller and smaller, it never justs ceases to exist. Since the world doesn't revolve around anyone in particular you're not just going to end up in some black space alone forever just talking to yourself.

There, I just thought I'd contribute to the whole point of the thread.

[Gareth]

i beleive in science quite a bit, (this isnt gonna make sciences look to good) but they have actually proven the thory of evolution wrong, i dunno all the details, but it was on the news (i know) but still, where did we come from then...... and in steven hawkings book, the universe in a nutshell (a damn good book) it says that if we were to grow in a huge tank, rather than the mothers womb, the childs head and brain would be larger, and humans would become smarter, becasue in birth the head can't reach its full size. i dunno, just some more stuff

[Cronos]

Your disproof of evolution really helped on this one. What with all the facts. Thank you.

[Ahnijson_films]

Ha! Cronos... you devil you!

Evolution has not been disproven, only proven time and time again. For anyone doubting that, here's a short little essay helping prove it. It's kind of shitty, but it should help. If you still doubt it, just go to some search engine, type in "Proof of Evolution", and see if you can refute all the evidence.


The Short Proof of Evolution
by
Ian Johnston

[This document is in the public domain and may be used, in whole or in part, without charge and without permission, by anyone, provided the source is acknowledged. Last revised in July 2001]

We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.

Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).

The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).

The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.

The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).

Well, if we put these three points together, the case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.

To make the claim for the truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. To deny evolution (as defined here) is on the same level of logic as to deny the fact that if someone jumps off the balcony of a high rise apartment and carries no special apparatus, she will fall towards the ground. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance.

[Cronos]

You have to realize that THAT essay was written by someone who probably had to do that for a report.

The whole point of their arguement was to prove evolution. That's why you see the writer in the end staking his claim on all these things that Evolution cannot be disproven.

First of all in that essay there wasn't enough scientific proof on Evolution to prove it for sure, and second of all there wasn't enough subjective points to help show that you are at least trying to count in other possibilities. But the subjective information may not be good enough.

Creationists for example could use that essay to say that it not only disproves Evolution, but helps prove Creation. In the whole part that says we started from more simpler forms, and then more complex forms could have been brought through by a diving being.

Another point they could make is that it helps show Evolution/Creationism. In that there was some Divine Design behind Evolution that helped spark along the process.

There are two points of Evolution, Macro, and Micro. If you want look it up through a Google search, it would take to long to go into detail.

Then there's the fact of how would something evolve? What makes something suddenly spark another Chromozone? What makes something reform it's DNA so that it looses it's tail.

These are the arguements that Evolutionists had to deal with.

Now I myself honestly don't think that some divine being is just creating beings out of nothingness to put on this Earth. There is no proof whatsoever to say without a doubt that it's a possibility. Bible humpers would say that the Bible itself is proof enough, but as many historical records there are in that book, it was also written in times when people had a lack of scientific understanding, and looked through God, and Religion to explain things.

It's really all a matter of time when we prove Evolution, I believe that it's the most logical explaination. But, whether it's Macro or Micro that occurs, or whether it's something else is yet to be seen. Micro right now could probably be easiest to prove. Macro is another story.

[Ahnijson_films]

You say that "well, if we started out as something simple, where did this simple thing come from?" I think that's kind of missing the point. No one is saying where it came from, I don't think they were trying to disprove a divine being, because truly you cannot disprove the existance of one. However, they are just proving that after creation, whatever it was, then came evolution.
really, like I said, this is not exactly the best essay to go off of. just a starting point for some people.
Honestly, the entire reason I believe in evolution is pretty simplistic - the average male in the 19th century was 5'7", you rarely saw a 6' guy. The average male is now 5'11", and people 6' and over are quite easy to find. Not saying that this is evolution in the sense that one species changes into a completely different one, but it is a form of evolution, and over a very short period of time. Of course, this isn't what my entire belief system is based on, just sort of sums it up.
One quick question Cronos - are you playing devil's advocate on this or do you really not believe in evolution. Just curious.

[Ahnijson_films]

I would just like to add that I find this all very inconsequentail, because we will never know what happens and therfore it doesn't really matter. My life changes 0% if there's evolution or any other theory. I just enjoy discussing it.

[Cronos]

Originally posted by Ahnijson_films
I don't think they were trying to disprove a divine being, because truly you cannot disprove the existance of one. One quick question Cronos - are you playing devil's advocate on this or do you really not believe in evolution. Just curious.

Umm, you can't prove there's a divine being either, and I'm playing Devil's Advocate.

If you read my post above thoroughly you'd have read that I think Evolution is the most logical explaination. I believe I said that.

I just said you can't really prove Evolution, not just yet.

I don't stick to a belief 100% unless someone slaps me in the face with the proof so hard that I have to. I believed that I was a male ever since I could make the distinction between the two sexes, and saw that there was living proof that I had the right parts. Other than that, I cannot say that I believe in Evolution 100%. But I do favor it. More than creationism. So in a sense I am pro-evolution, but if it ever turns out that I'm prove wrong, I won't try and hold onto my belief with a sharp knife.

[Ahnijson_films]

I agree with what you're saying totally. I think it is the most believable and "provable", however, I will not say that evolution is definitely the facts, and we have come from primordial ooze. And I most certainly will not say that God and Christianity or what have you are even close to correct, they are definitely the least provable.

And in all honesty, I don't really care enough. Some people will devote their whole lives to discovering it, and in the end, they die and find out, just like everyone else. Or they die and don't find out, either way... silly silly.

[Cronos]

I read your PS, and that was what I was trying to say the whole time, and how I got into the Reincarnation thing and Evolution thing.

I claimed that we will never know what happens, because even if we died, and were reincarnated, we'd never really know what happens after life because we would be in a new body.

Another good question could be, what went on before life? Before we were placed on this sphere? I'd imagine either we were just spit out of an old body, or something else, or either nothingness. It's all very interesting.

[Ahnijson_films]

Yeah I read that post of yours about not ever really knowing.

I think it is a very good thought as to "well, what were we before this?"

I kind of wonder... this is just a very remote theory, and not one I necesserily agree with, just something I've come across and think is interesting, anyway...

Say we do have a soul... a consiousness outside of this body, that is right now staying in this body until it expires, then it moves to another, or heaven, or whatever. Now the reason we don't know what happened before it is because of our brain and our human constraints. It's sort of like, attempt to imagine infinity. As humans, we cannot truly comprehend that. Imagine time stretching to infinity before this, we really can't. It is something our brains cannot handle. Perhaps the "what happens to us before we're here" is similar. Maybe our brains just cannot process this information, cannot comprehend it, and therefore, while remaining in this body we will not be able to understand it.

???

[Cronos]

Yea, and if that was the case we would never if we were in fact reincarnated. We'd finally witness what happens in an out of body experience, and then your back to square one.

Then there's the whole fact that since the Universe is infinite, there could be life elsewhere that we would be reincarnated into rather than keep on popping up on Earth. Just a thought.

If we knew what happened after death it might detract from the whole point of living I think.

[Ahnijson_films]

I think if we found out conclusively the answer to this question life on Earth would basically cease. If we knew, for certain, that there was "heaven" to go to, then why would we continue eating, sleeping, working, et cetera? There would be no more purpose to our existance, no reason to stay on this earth, and we would just quit living here and go ahead on up to heaven. I think the only reason we are here is because of the fear/apprehension of the unknown after death, that is the thing that keeps us striving to go on another day. That fear that this is it, this is all we get, so live it up as best you can.

[andal]

Originally posted by aeternus0
Just to clear up (hopefully) the whole evolution/bigbang thing ...

It is true that theories are just that - essentially well-educated (usually) guesses that may or may not be true. The Big Bang THEORY is an example of that - it is certainly not fact.

However, although evolution is called "The Theory of Evolution", this is misleading. When Darwin first proposed the idea, indeed it WAS a theory then. Since then, however, it has been proved dozens if not hundreds of times. The only reason it is still called a theory is because that phrase caught on.

In terms of space and time, I always thought it to be the opposite - not that time created space but rather that space creates time. Time is basically just a measure of change. When somethine changes, there needs to be some way of measuring the time in between. However, space and matter could theoretically exist without time, if they remained totally static and did not change at all.

In other words ... TIME = CHANGE

or at least that's how i see it.

Great thoughts, i did want to say that evolution is still a theory, greatley accepted by science but not proven that's were the missing link comes in. science can not find the direct link between current humans and primative huminoid mammals.It's just our luck there just had to be a piece to the puzzle that was amiss, was it aliens, god, evo, maybe all. Perhaps it is our destiny to question infinitly { the perrills of an opend mind} i say all things are.....if you are ...energy creates ...project it..

[Thrakandor]

Originally posted by aeternus0
We are not separate from the universe, we are an intrisic PART of it, the embodyment of creation. Of course, if our lives are thought of as distinct, fleeting shells of nothing but our own egos, we are bound to be driven to seek out eternal Life and to fear Death in every form, because Death, we think, is the END.

Death is not the end - we are fleeting, but we are nonetheless manifestations of what is already eternal, the incredible universe that is all around us and permeates EVERY SINGLE THING. The illusion that we are separate from this eternal flow is the only real Hell.

The world is transient, constantly changing. The sun rises, the seasons pass, the moon grows, then shrinks, the mountains rise, then fall ... friends leave, relationships change, the very stars above us shift, and the sun sets. When our physical bodies stop functioning; when our heart ceases its beat and our brains die ... this is just another change. And, just as the sun is never destroyed when it sets, we are not gone, but simply merged back into ... well ... EVERYTHING.

Beautiful :)

That's somewhat similar to the conclusion I've currently arrived at...

I somewhat doubt that we'll remain conscious after death. But we're still eternal... everything that we've said and done will be locked in the past for all time... it will never be untrue that we existed.

We are immortal, though none may consciously remember us. We are a part of the universe now, and forever.

(And all this pain is an illusion :D)

[Dub]

Science is based upon what we can observe. That started with our eyes, ears, and all the other senses, and then grew to accomodate things we could begin to observe through other means, light spectrums, electricity etc.

I think there must be other forces out there acting on the universe that we cannot sense consciously. That are beyond our senses, but still affect us in some way we can not yeat measure or understand. Television and radio waves go through you each minute of every day... there you are, unaware...

Has anyone read "The Holotropic Mind" ? I forget the author but he was a prominat researcher with LSD. Graf I think it was.

He has some interesting stories and theories in there, many about psychology and metaphysics. One that is not fully developed but taked from another book is that the universe is very much like a hologram. In a hologram you can break it into pieces and the tiny pieces can still be used to create the original image... anyway.. there's some through provoking stuff.

Cronos commented on not believing in past lives, I don't really, but I do believe we are all connected by invisible forces. One story in the book is about a women under hypnosis (it may have been acid I can't really remember) But she had the experience of being on the front lines during one of the World Wars, and seeing a fellow soldier die. She could describe all the surroundings and what was being said, etc. She told the tale to her grandfather and it turned out to be one of his memories of the war. He had never told anyone about it, and she remembered the exact same things he did. I'm probably forgetting some crucial detail that proves it was him and not another soldier... but it raises some interesting questions.

[KwizatzHaderach]

Death is just such a heavy trip that it's tough to pretend you can talk about with any kind of informed attitude. I think that I prescribe to the idea that it's just another way to look at life. When you die, it's just the same as making a massive change in your life. You don't know what's coming next, and you can't have any preconceived notions, otherwise, you'll get stuck in old patterns and wind up in the same trip you were in before.

And that's all I have to say about that.

P.S. I saw Richie Havens tonight, and if he comes to your city, you should see this guy. He was in the original Woodstock movie, and he's one of the most hip dudes producing music in the united states.

[Jerk off]

Although this thread is very interesting it is also completely pointless. The only way we will ever know what happens after we die is to die. We can debate what we think happens till the end of time but no one will ever know. I'm sorry this sounds so pessimistic. I did enjoy reading your thoughts. So, I guess I'll see you on the other side.
MW


If you got that reference, "I love You" :)

[Thrakandor]

Originally posted by Jerk off
So, I guess I'll see you on the other side.
MW


If you got that reference, "I love You" :)

Hm, actually I first thought of "Motion Picture Soundtrack" by Radiohead - "I will see you in the next life"

But of course it's 'Pushit' from Salival

[Jerk off]

See, now I have to love you. Well , here you go . I LOVE YOU for knowing that. :)

[SkinnyWhiteGuy]

Here's my thinking on the Creation vs Evolution thing: both.

If God wrote the Bible (those who have read Drosnin's 'Bible Code', please chime in) he did it long time ago. Before we knew about the universe, and molecules, and dna, and dinosaurs. I think Moses's uncle invented the pointed stick, I mean its a long time ago.

He (God) couldn't say "First, I condensed all the matter in this dimension into a tiny ball and then BANG!! Then, after a while, I created life using what I like to call "building blocks"
and something called nutrients..." and so on. He had to explain it in a way that tiny-brained people with no knowledge of science could understand. Hence, the myth-like story of a garden with no sin and a evil creature and crazy apple, a half-page history of why there is space, why there is land, water, people, and why people have it rough. Simple, concise, it gets all the major points across and answers the big questions.

Hard-core creationist might say that any interpretation of what the Bible says is wrong b/c it's the word of God and is infalible.
But, a shorter version of the truth is not a lie. If you ask me to explain how a stop light works, I will say that a sensor in the road tells the light when to change. That's true, its an accurate statement. Of course, there's a lot more to it than that, more than I could readily understand. But I was still right., and I answered your question well enough to suit your needs.


Obviously, evolution is a logical theory. We have tailbones, for cryin out loud. But even if that theory is correct, and we came from a puddle of magic slime, they can't explain how the slime begot life. They just say it was a miracle.

[Rice]

life sucks anyway

[Convoy_X]

Originally posted by kill_me
well.. as much as id like to believe in reincarnation and heaven and hell and everything, the world has become much to scientific for my liking... I've pretty much ruled out the possibility or god and satan.. and ive come to the decesion that the only real truth is science.. i mean, adam and eve has been proven wrong by evolution, god creating the universe has been proven wrong by the big bang theory...

hum Adam and Eve were proven right by DNA and there is steel no way to prove or disprove evolution OR creation the same is true for the so called Big Bang. i have said before evolution vs. creation (by any god) does not conflict! the Big Bang and creation do not conflict. the Bible says that God crated thing it never goes in to detail, the people of that time could not understand the Big Bang or evolution.

ok i got to say this to prove something you need to use the "scientific method"(http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html#Heading3) there is no way to do this with evolution OR creation

I. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

If the experiments bear out the hypothesis it may come to be regarded as a theory or law of nature (more on the concepts of hypothesis, model, theory and law below). If the experiments do not bear out the hypothesis, it must be rejected or modified. What is key in the description of the scientific method just given is the predictive power (the ability to get more out of the theory than you put in; see Barrow, 1991) of the hypothesis or theory, as tested by experiment. It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.

[Snapcase]

[i].

no life is truly that great without the inclusion of a greater divine plan because if it didn't, human experience would be empty, fleeting and ultimately meaningless. maybe i've got a bad attitude towards things, but to me, hell is existing when there's no real reason why you should. [/B]


Death renders life ultimately absurd? sounds like some existentialist bullshit to me. The reason you exist is to be happy, happiness is a component of survival, if you haven't noticed all life on earth main goal is to survive and propagate the species. Our consciousness is what separates us from other life forms on earth, but it is merely a tool that allows us to be the most successful creatures on the planet. Ultimately this is a boring outlook on life to most, people love to believe in mysteries.

[winston grudge]

Imagine that you are you. Your preception of you. This is the you that only you know. Now imagine the you in the mind of everyone you know. The you in the mind of your mother, in the mind of your friends, your enemies, your girlfriend or boyfriend. Imagine how regardless of how much someone knows you all they really know is their perception OF you. There are hundreds, perhaps thouands of you in existance because of the different 'you's' that exist in the minds of everyone you come into contact with.

Now, Imagine, what happens to those perceptions when you die? Do they all die with you?

Or maybe we should stop worrying about death and focus on doing something positive, creative, uplifting, destructive, anything. Just prove that you are alive. It's not that life is short, but death is just so long.

-WG

[Thrakandor]

Originally posted by winston grudge
It's not that life is short, but death is just so long.

-WG

All too true.

But then, why worry? It's going to happen sometime. I just don't want to die needlessly. Or to find that any religions preaching eternal punishment were right, lol

Speaking of which, I've chosen my epitaph -

"I hope I wasn't wrong about Christianity."

[Snapcase]

Originally posted by winston grudge
Imagine that you are you. Your preception of you. This is the you that only you know. Now imagine the you in the mind of everyone you know. The you in the mind of your mother, in the mind of your friends, your enemies, your girlfriend or boyfriend. Imagine how regardless of how much someone knows you all they really know is their perception OF you. There are hundreds, perhaps thouands of you in existance because of the different 'you's' that exist in the minds of everyone you come into contact with.

Now, Imagine, what happens to those perceptions when you die? Do they all die with you?



-WG




Did you just say we will all live on in memory? wait......I just said what you said and it sounded as about as intelligent.

[dawn]

first off...............have you seen powder?? great flick

secondly, i have found all of the evidence i need to support the big bang theory see my thread big bang

[winston grudge]

*kicks snapcase* I'm more elloquent.
The reason I wrote out everything in such away was so that people like would see it and think. Not give them the easy way out by blankly making a statement. But hey, if you need stuff put in an easy, one sentance way, fine by me. Just don't read my posts anymore.
And have a nice day.
-WG

[Snapcase]

Originally posted by winston grudge
*kicks snapcase* I'm more elloquent.
The reason I wrote out everything in such away was so that people like would see it and think. Not give them the easy way out by blankly making a statement. But hey, if you need stuff put in an easy, one sentance way, fine by me. Just don't read my posts anymore.
And have a nice day.
-WG


Ok *reals from WGs internet kick, goes off into a corner and shoots himself but lives on in the memory of all those he knew, he is immortal*

[LeoDV]

The great thing about men is that they think they're original when they rehash the same thing that's been said over and over again with different words.

How does that relate to the meaning of death?

So far, every view of death that anyone's had can be summed up as two different (though not necessarily opposing) ideas of what death is.

The first view is the view common to all religions except atheism, which is death isn't an end, but part of a process. Life as we know it is only a part of what we are, and when that part's over, we keep on going towards... something.

The second view is the view that originated (at least as far as we know) some two and a half millenia ago from Democrites, the Greek guy who prophetized atoms existed. And if atoms exist, then we're nothing but matter. If we are nothing but matter, life is just a process within that, and at some point it ends, and we call it 'death' and that's it.

We have no fucking way in hell to say which is which.

Personally I'm hoping for the first one, but that's all I can do without lying to myself.

[Jerk off]

Ofquote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by winston grudge
Imagine that you are you. Your preception of you. This is the you that only you know. Now imagine the you in the mind of everyone you know. The you in the mind of your mother, in the mind of your friends, your enemies, your girlfriend or boyfriend. Imagine how regardless of how much someone knows you all they really know is their perception OF you. There are hundreds, perhaps thouands of you in existance because of the different 'you's' that exist in the minds of everyone you come into contact with.

Now, Imagine, what happens to those perceptions when you die? Do they all die with you?



-WG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you just say we will all live on in memory? wait......I just said what you said and it sounded as about as intelligent.


~~~~of course we all live on in memory, but what happens when all the people who remember us also Die?
MW

[winston grudge]

Snapcase- sorry, bad mood that day. Thanks for not taking it seriously.

MW/jerk off-
Then we are truely dead. Time to slowly vibrate with the rest of existance.

[Matteran]

I just thought of this in shower. Don't think of what it's like after death. That's impossible. We have not experienced it yet. However, we have experienced something very similar... can you guess what it is? Birth. Not of the birth process, but everything before your birth. It seems that from the creation of the universe (God, or otherwise) it was simply an instant and then you were born. Because there was no time for you to interpret, 15.3 billion years was just an instant.

Now, this could be way off of what actually happened, but from as far as i can tell, there is absolutely nothing that happened between creation, and well, my creation. Think of that, and try to smack me down. I thought of this only ten minutes ago, so if i think of other stuff I'll let you know.

[Nirvana]

there is something i dont get... do you wanna say that everybody comes back to earth?... in another body... because if your spirit (or how you called it) stays in this world... and a little goes to the universe... that would mean that you will come back to earth.. only inside a new born baby.. right?...

And when you die... your body will slowly fade... and when there isnt anything left... where does your spirit go?... it cant stay with your old body... because that is gone... have any idea?

[George Bush Sr.]

Since snapcase seems to know everything, I would like to know what he thinks abouts supernatural phenomenon caught on video and photographic images.

I'd like do know what all you other people (that are obviously morons compared to the mental prowess of snapcase) think about this too.

[Matteran]

If Nirvana was talking to me, well, lemme see if i can try to explain this. I thought of something new while in french class. Before you were born, you could in essence say that you were infinitly non-exsitent, but when you are born, you are suddenly existent, and well, i don't know of anything that is infinite, and then becomes finite (or vise versa), so in theory you become infinitely exsistent. So possibly some sort of conciousness, or spirit remains even after your body dies. What happens next is really just your preference.

I think that most people will simply build a heaven in their minds. Heaven is supposed to be a perfect place for everyone, well, if you created heaven then it would be perfect, to your specifications. Other people might reflect on their lives, or a lot of people might create a hell. I'm not really sure. Personally, I'm not really into the transfering of bodies. So, what i'm saying (but i don't really want you to use my view as a guide, I would prefere to hear your interpretation of my reasoning) (Hint hint, Nirvana, what did you think that i meant originally?) is that the spirit or conciousness stays infinitly, and creates whatever life after death is to them.

[GregoryWohlwend]

i just came across this post for it is my first time in the letters section, for some reason i have been wasting my time in the socialize section.. and now that is over that i have found this wonderful wealth of thought and expression... on to my thougths...

Death is in the minds of all that can forsee it, my first memory of dealing with this inevitable truth is during my childhood. for the first time i could grasp death and what it truly meant and i began to cry, i believe it was after dinner and i suddenly began thinking, i had this distinct vision of outer space with planets etc. as the backdrop. i intrinsically thought of my grandfather and how he would die i thought of the feelings i would feel if he were to go forever and i continued crying, for some reason i remember thinking of earthworms too... hmm??? later in life i comforted myself with religion this was during 10-12 years old, my parents thought it was good and so did i. It solved the problem for the time being. After i realized that my parents didn't have the answers i was looking for i rejected religion and found my thoughts settling on atheism. i am alive and so is my brain, when i cease to be alive then so does my brain, when my brain stops then existence stops. however this all changed one very dark night in january...

It started out as just being fungus, then it turned into bliss and gibberish. the static started to swirl and well, something happened... something i'm not sure anyone should hear... maybe i'll start a thread with it.... so we ventured up to his room after a bit, we all knew something had happened... here i proceeded to see the innerspace within everything, the atoms which made up the matter i was laying on etc... it was wonderful... i slowly began to loose touch with my body and as a last effort i whispered "i'm dying" my head hit my knee and i sat motionless for eternity. with much reflection i have found that the time that had passed was timeless, with the words spoken of death immediatly my thoughts turned to the subject at hand i realized that after i die or perhaps i did die... i will never convince myself 100 percent that i am actually alive, it was too real yet surreal in the same momeny. yada yada after i die that i will "wake up" in the same body, in the same existence, "totally void of hate" doomed/blessed to live the same exact life with the same exact experiencings and keep on making the same choices for eternity past present and future.... at least that is what i'm going with nowadays...

[Matteran]

I really like your post Gregory. I have also thought a lot about the whole repeating thing. I thought of an idea tied into the big bang, in which the universe will expand, and then collapse on itself, and this "pulsing" is what i believe to be called an "Ossilating Universe."

This is how I think the universe works. I also think that right now until infinity in either direction through time, we have been repeating everything in the exact same manner.

Well, actually i'm slightly undecided. I believe in the ossilating universe, however i'm not sure if each pulse is exactly the same, or the events of the previous pulse affect the following pulse. Not like, what humans might do. But what happens to the elements. The stars burn up, and change the elemental makeup of the universe constantly. So, when the universe collapses on itself, and procedes to expand, will the events be different? Because of the slightly altered elementary particle makeup?

So, that's where i'm undecided, so right now, we could be infinitly stuck in this pulsating universe, or, we could be living during this pulse only because the previous pulses allowed the elements to change perfectly to support human life.

[GregoryWohlwend]

materan, thanks for your ideas

in reference to the universe expanding and collapsing

at times i do agree with your idea that the universe expands and then collapses on it self only to repeat again. however recently after a read of an astronomy magazine the "scientists" are talking about how dark energy will soon take over and the universe will be a void, yet this may be the key to a new cycle taking place. picture a void just like in the big bang story where a ball of energy and mass explodes, perhaps instead of collapsing the void is too much and energy and mass explod just as in the big bang theory... however this may be all hogwash or a filtered truth due to our limited sense of reality. i really don't believe much science has to say nowadays due to them not being able to explain much of what is going on (dark matter) with their pretty "physics"


in reference to determinism

have you ever given thought to the basics of the universe, at least the ones we THINK are the basics. chemicals are really the basics for life and each chemical MUST react with another the same way over and over, the universe is extremely complex and predicting these reactions is impossible with today's minds yet it theory it seems as though we are all made of chemicals therefor they must react within us and outside of us the same way according to their makeup and proximitiy... then again we don't really know much of anything about everything so chemicals could all just be a facade for a deeper pattern...

http://wu.sw0bes.com/universal_pattern.htm

[dork]

The first thing I remember is that I was lying down on a white bed. there were people all around me. They were familiar. The walls were white with blue tinge. I was hooked up to loud machines. I could feel them. My eyes were closed. I cannot open them. My body is still, I cannot move. I am aware of everything going on around me, I can almost feel the room. I realize that the senses I once had were unnecessary. I have evolved.
I feel the doctor in the white coat, pull the sheet over my head. As I regain ‘muscle’ control, I get up off the bed. People are crying softly as I move slowly past them. The physical world remains the same. It will take me some time to get used to this place. It is lonely here. But at last, I am free.

[guy]

pondering death will drive one to insanity, we should always remember the more we try to explain it, the more complex we make it. we should just try to do the best with what we have right now, and worry about the future when it gets here. besides who are we to decide what god wants when we dont even know what we want.

[GregoryWohlwend]

insanity is a form of genius

insanity is the path to evolution. you say you are not insane, well i say you are. insanity is in the eye or head of the beholder. insanity is beautiful. GOD DAMNIT fuck fuck fuck it is already too late, you say we shouldn't care about the future well i say the future is cold very cold. the absence of heat is the absense of life... here is something i wrote during a moment of "clarity"

Shivering

think to the future
cells
further
future
cold
cellular struggle ahead
it IS colder
the trees are sleeping
...in the future

if we keep numbing our minds with a fake reality that things are safe and will stay that way soon everyone will come to realize that they are whiley coyote in the middle of the air off the edge of the cliff and it is only a matter of time until the comedic pause ends and we fall to our extinction... honestly do you not understand the consequences of the cancer that we keep building, humans keep building death and destroying life, more and more and more and more... GOD DAMNIT where is the sense of urgency, right now my only hopes resides in some sort of lifeform surviving our extinction, if only a single tree survives or even a blade of grass, maybe even a virus or bacteria, then perhaps another form of sentient life may actually find a balance instead of multiplying and fucking mother earth into oblivion. FUCKING WAKE UP!

...i have plans to build a spaceship which has a sentient computer on board, which i will overcome and reach Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite, perhaps behind the monolith lies the path of truth...

[Matteran]

I understand your anger Gregory, but you need to accept certain things. While it may be a very good thing that you are trying to wake people up, well, humans are too comfortable with where they are right now. If you try and accept things for the way they are, then anger seems to dissapate. I have recently tried to accept most people as sleeping. There's nothing we can do, and well, maybe it's better off that way. I'm not really sure why, simply, because I try not to think of those things.

Guy...
I know what you are saying, about worrying about death. Well, it's not that I'm worrying about death, I'm simply curious. I have a feeling that if we were to better understand, well, have a personal belief about what happens after death, then it can change how you live your life. It has done so for me. Just look up there ^. I seem to be accepting of things as just the natural way of happening. I'm not really sure exactly what I will gain, but I just have a feeling that I will become better later on, if I come to an agreement with my mind about what may happen after death. That's why I decided to ask other people, so we may all help eachother.

[dawn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matteran
[B]I understand your anger Gregory, but you need to accept certain things. While it may be a very good thing that you are trying to wake people up, well, humans are too comfortable with where they are right now. If you try and accept things for the way they are, then anger seems to dissapate. I have recently tried to accept most people as sleeping. There's nothing we can do, and well, maybe it's better off that way. I'm not really sure why, simply, because I try not to think of those things.QUOTE]

I'm thinkin that was covered in 'The Matrix'. Damn fine movie.

[Matteran]

Yeah, I was thinking that the whole time I was writting, and almost considered mentioning it. I guess I didn't

[psilomind]

Hurray, I recently thought up something I found to be quite interesting (to me at least). All of the philosophers, physical scientists, astronomers, and thinkers of the past centuries have based their research on a thought that was not and cannot be proven, but was assumed. This thought is the hierarchy of the space-time continuum.


The continuum can be thought of in three ways:

1. Without motion, or change in space, there is no time.

2. Without time, there is no change.

3. Without either, there is no reality


I'm pretty sure that current physical theories assume that the latter of the three is correct. This states that both time and space have an equal hierarchical status, and without either, nothing can exist.

I however, believe that without time, there is no change, but without change, time still continues. Yet time itself does not cause change. I feel that there are primary forces that act in a physical environment in order to maintain the continuum. These include attraction, resistance, repulsion, and intelligence. The point at which change stops is when all of these forces are resolved. In order for these forces to take action, dimensional time must exist.

In addition, I believe that this why we live, and die as well; in order to resolve the universe. Who knows, once everything ends, maybe we will be reborn when the process begins once more.

That is my theory on death and reality. It may be wrong, but in being open minded I accept anything as a possibility.