Connections In Everyday Life

[fireplaceporno]

This post includes an interesting place I managed to come across in life that suddenly supported everything that embodies my love for Tool. I warn those who hate long posts to steer clear of this one. And, also, if you don't like philosophy or mathematics (which the later I'm not too fond of either) you also may want to change your course...

I recently visited the humble home of a college math professor (mentor) that I came in contact with a year ago. Upon inspecting her house I found an array of intriguing pieces of "art" scrawled along the walls. The art was more mathematical than fine, with numbers scratched in India Ink along the perimeter of various sized beautiful spirals, Pagan symbols, and rectangles. Immediately I recognized the images from her class, entitled Quantitative Literacy, and proceeded to discuss the topicology of her class some year ago. Before I delve into our conversation, I feel that there is a need to explain the curriculum involved in Quantitative Literacy.
Being an art college, it would have been absurd to bound students to some kind of Calculus or Physics course work, so the only other alternative was Quantitative Literacy. This class was a mathematical plethora of intrigue, with lessons that revolved around the evolution process of human beings, supernatural and spiritual mathematics, and sacred geometry. The Fibonacci sequence (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34...) and so on was a mathematical pattern I learned which symbolizes the basic building blocks of all things throughout nature, from trees to the way a fly lands to the way smoke trails from a cigarette to the DNA of human beings. We also touched on chaos, order, and the fourth dimension. Altogether, Quantitative Literacy was the most amazing intruguing math class ever offered by an educational institution.
During my time in this class, I continually though about Tool and "Forty-Six & 2" in particular. I realized that the evolutionary stages of human beings, literally and figuratively, are now plastered into my brain and have significant references in "Forty-Six & 2". The current human system contains 46 chromosomes, writing our current stage in our evolutionary process. Two more chromosomes would mark the next level of evolution of human beings. When learning about the fourth dimension in Quantitative Literacy, I realized that throughout evolution the universe has been a tenant of every dimension up to the third, and has yet to experience the fourth. Therefore, it is easy to assume that with the aquisition of two extra chromosomes would begin the process in which human beings would be able to experience the fourth dimension, which, in case you are unaware, is Time.
The "shadow" mentioned in "Forty-Six & 2" also plays a big part in my appreciation for math and my math teacher. In learning about dimensions, I learned that it is easy for someone or something in a higher dimension to cause miraculous occurences or strange happenings on lesser or lower dimensions. For instance, human beings of the third dimension can pick up a single celled organizm in the second dimension without it knowing what is happening, place it down, spin it and pick it back up again. Therefore, when the human evolution process grants human beings with two extra chromosomes, the shadow may be what plays with those beings stuck in the third dimension, creating miracles, without any of those beings knowing it. It is a theory in process, and it may not have anything to do with the song, but hey, it works on its own levels....Look here for a follow up if you stayed this long....thanks for taking the time.

[nina]

your post made me think about how the shadow could be the astral double and the picking of scabs is like picking apart yourself or analysing yourself and so (hopefully) developing and evolving spiritually. in this way the change is allowed through the shadow, although how my brain hasnt put into words yet, as if past some sort of obstacle that has been cleared by self discovery.
i was also thinking about what you were saying about dimensions and how something on a higher dimension could perform "miracles", to me it sounds similar to the idea that anything created on the astral plane will be created on the physical plane (as if by magic) whether this is the work of the shadow/astral double or what- i need to read some more.
reading back through this i dont think i have put my thoughts into words very well so i apologise



i just noticed: below on this page it says there is no limit on length but when i check the length of my message it says the maximum permitted length is 10000 characters...who do i believe?

[Christopher]

That would be dream course for me......i cant wait until i get out of highschool and can take courses like those.


any way

"it is easy to assume that with the aquisition of two extra chromosomes would begin the process in which human beings would be able to experience the fourth dimension, which, in case you are unaware, is Time. "

would you acheive this when you ar in the state such as in Third Eye........where you have no sence of time, that you are stuck in a certain time and can realize what you are?

[fireplaceporno]

Actually, Christopher, the exact opposite is true. Within the fourth dimension, one would have an extreme sense of time and be able to move through it just as we walk or drive a car down the street today. Your definition or realization of self would not change, but anything still surviving in the third dimension would be oblivious to you. Therefore you could miraculously touch those things, objects, beings lives without them knowing it (or deviously destroy their lives, of course)

[rickiep00h]

THE third eye, though, is referenced in connection with psychedelics and other drugs.

I agree that this third eye enables us to make a connection with other places and times, but as far as permanent, evolutionary third eyes are concerned... we're a long way off. What we've got now are substances which heighten awareness within our senses. We can see, hear, taste, feel all sorts of things that we couldn't under normal circumstances... but we can't go out and, say, project ourselves onto a different plane, thus being in two places and once.

That's what will happen when we master these 2 chromosomes... we will grasp the fourth dimention... we will be omnipresent... we will become eternal... we will become, in short, god.

the third eye only lets us SEE him. ;)

[dmt]

"Within the fourth dimension, one would have an extreme sense of time and be able to move through it just as we walk or drive a car down the street today"

what do you mean within the fourth dimension? we are simultaneously occupying all dimensions.

[dmt]

youve never herd of dmt have you?
the late terrance mckenna said that once you take dmt you can have a dream and someone can pull out a pipe of dmt and you will have a complete dmt experience in your dreams. when you take dmt it unlocks a key in your brain. your brain naturally produces dmt. this is a permanent change in consciousness.

[nina]

what is the full name of dmt?
is it produced in the pineal gland?

[dmt]

"That's what will happen when we master these 2 chromosomes... we will grasp the fourth dimention... we will be omnipresent... we will become eternal... we will become, in short, god."

what makes you think that there are only 4 dimensions and what is sooo special about the 4th. the whole flaw in everyones arguement is their concept of time. time isn't a roll of film that you can switch frames go forward a frame go back a frame. time is one frame constantly changing without units. time is a representation of movement. the 4th dimesion is movement not time. time is a human concept of our solar systems and is not universal.
everything that has ever happened or will happen is happening right now on this one single frame of existence. there is no manipulating it. time is movement, movement of matter or energy, time is energy. energy can take infinite different forms. who are we to say that our time is the same as the universes "time"

[ShackledEidolon]

Have you ever wondered about the way a higher diminsion can be represented using a lower one

For instance I can draw a 3d box on a 2d object (paper...assuming it only represents a 2d surface) Perhaps the third eye experience that has been referenced is simply our 3 or 4d (i tend to believe we have an understanding of the 4d) representation of a higher state. It isn't complete because afterall my drawing of a box still lacks that 3rd diminsion it is not truly 3d. So currently we can express our ideas of the higher state through these third-eye states however they are not truly the state at all. I think that perhaps this is what is meant in Third Eye song itself.

basically I am saying that I think we have indeed found ways to represent this state however as stated before we are a long ways away from actualizing this concept. However the fact that we can glimpse it at all enough to emulate it is progress in the correct direction

[fireplaceporno]

Just to clear the water a little and hopefully help everyone understand, I would like to point out some facts about evolution as it pertains to the fourth dimension. First, there is definetely a fourth dimension, and even a fifth, sixth, seventh, ... dimensions. The fourth dimension has been scientifically proven to be time. The realm of time is not time as humans know it today, such as time zones and numbers representing a passage of time. Instead, time is more of a stage, in which objects can move and interact with each other in different way than can be done in the third dimension. For instance:

An object living in the first dimension, which is purely a line that limits movement ony to forwards or backward (imagine drawing a line and placing a dot on it. The only way to move the dot is along the line, hence limiting movement to two directions). An object in the second dimension, which is purely a plane limiting movement to forwards, backwards, left, and right but not up or down, can interact with the object in the first dimension without the one-dimensional object being aware of this interaction at all...here's an example:

Take a piece of paper, which is a 2 dimensional world so to speak. Then, take a block (or any three dimensional object) and compare the two. If the piece of paper was translucent or just a plane of light, you could move the block through the paper, cutting the block into two pieces. To an object living on this plane of light (or paper), it would seem that the block appeared out of no where, miraculously. However, the object on the plane of light (2nd dimension), would only recognize the block as a line, because it has no concept of three dimensions or volume.

---------{_}-----------

Now back to the fourth dimension. Knowing that a one dimensional object has no concept of area or surface, an object of two dimensions can interact with the one dimensional object unbeknownst to the one dimensional object. The same goes for a three dimensional object interacting with two dimentional object. Therefore, it is safe to assume that a fourth dimensional object could cause "miracles", supernatural occurences, in our three dimensional world. Because the fourth dimension is time, no time passes within it. Time is relative only to the third dimension, because it is a measurement. However, in a plane of time (a world consisting of movement within the stage of time) there is no need for a form of measurement, and objects within the fourth dimension are always existing at all points of time at once. For this reason, a fourth dimensional object could infact impose upon any part of our current measurement of time, change things, and human beings in the third dimension would never know the difference.

For anyone who is intrigued by this, I highly recommend the book Flatland (barne's and noble) and I would appreciate responses about the book if you actually buy it and read it.

[paraflux]

First of all, excellent last post. There is definitely a movement in the making for a dimensional shift. I have read that there are energy grids that have to be completed before a mass shift is made. However, our fourth dimensional grid is almost complete, if not already so. Have you seen the grids on the screens at the Tool shows before the introduction noises even start? Symbolism...
We, as humans, are in our second phase of evolutionary switch. There are three such stages, which are all depicted in Alex Grey's painting... I forget the name. The first is 42 and 2 (chromosomes, which the last two refer to sex of the individual, I believe). This is a simple organism, such as orangutans or Neanderthals, perhaps. The second is 44 and 2, where we gain conscious knowledge and can manipulate our environment to an extent to meet our needs. The last, 46 and 2, represents where we are going. Although I do not pretend to be an evolved human, I can say this is a desired goal, and once acheived, we can move freely through time and even further manipulate our surroundings for our benefit.
I am not aware if the theory of survival of the fittest applies here. I am personally of the opinion that those who are not ready soon enough (although when soon enough is, no one is sure) they will be purged to allow the new species to live freely. I do not even know if our future allows us to remain on this planet. Maybe the destruction of the planet Earth is necessary. Even so, the new humans will be able to live better than the system we have set up today. There is a responsibility we have to life to continue pushing forward, away from the old and stale, which is what life unfortunately has become for most people, unless they are renewed through their spirits.

Flatland is written by C.S. Lewis, is it not? It is an excellent resource for understanding dimensions. Written so a baby could understand.

[fireplaceporno]

I would just like to point out that the amount of intelect, maturity and exploration pouring out of this forum is amazing. Thank you everyone who has posted here for countless amounts of knowledge and enlightenment. It is very unique to Tool and Tool fans, I believe, that the subject matter spoke of within these forums is such that it is. It is no wonder that there exists a deep analysis process when dealing with Tool topics, and the level of such analysis' is through the roof. Again, thank you all.

With that I would like to offer another opinion...Suppose the next evolution of human beings is, in fact, the ability to live within a stage of time. Would there be a set of beings or objects already inhabiting this space? It is a question that delves on miracles, and from what source do they come. Knowing that objects in the fourth dimension could very well interact with three dimensional objects unnoticed, and assuming that miracles do happen, is it safe to guess that miracles come from beings already existing in the fourth dimension? If so, what void would such a theory place on the current practice of religion as a valid source of miracles? Or, are beings in the fourth dimension congruent, the same, to those worshiped in religion, and will the evolution of human beings bring us to them?

[paraflux]

I would think there are already beings on the ninth dimension. I think the reason aliens are kept from us is because they are more advanced, not necessarily technologically, but existence-wise. Don't you think mayhem would erupt if all humans knew of other dimensions? At least up till now? If the government admits there are aliens then they would have to divulge all kinds of shit, some of which people might go crazy upon learning, because it goes against everything they were taught.

[ragna16]

Why would a government know about aliens that could alter that which controls our reality and which would never need to be seen or heard?

I understand what is said about different dimensional movement, but it is something that can hardly be grasped by our current means. You can't visualize someone moving through 4 dimensions, because you would have to know more about that 4th dimension, and how it extends out. If such advancement could come by somehow not only altering ones consciousness but ones entire reality then there is little keeping us from the God like sentience of the other beings that exist there.

[Chris_Brightwell]

Actually, Christopher, the exact opposite is true. [...]

Please do not begin a new thread for the purpose of replying to someone's message from a different thread. Use the "Post Followup" button instead of the "New Thought" button.

Thanks.
Chris Brightwell // moderator

[Rayhush]

"If such advancement could come by somehow not only altering ones consciousness but ones entire reality then there is little keeping us from the God like sentience of the other beings that exist there."
If you don't think that this might be possible, try reading Carlos Casteneda's "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge" but don't run out and start looking for peyote, this guy had one hell of a guide.

[paraflux]

There is indeed little keeping us from being our part of God. I think your question is, "Why don't we feel or know about the beings affecting our reality?" I can answer with - With higher frequency living, you have to accept more responsibility. You can't just go fucking with the lower dimensions because you feel like it. Or, you can, but the consequences will probably be greater than if you were just playing a joke on your friend.

[blankspace]

Hi, I'm new here but I'd like to reply to fireplace's most recent post, particularly pertaining to the questions about bringing us to these beings able to move through the 4th dimension. IMO, if these beings were created and evolved on the same structure and basis that we (humans) were, then there is a good chance, I believe, that they would be evolving as well, and would move through to the next level, if there is one...But on another note, if these creatures or beings were hypothetically existent and could cause said "miracles", it raises many questions. One, if these beings were causing "miracles" there would , In my opinion, either be a) a very small amount of these beings as to cause very few noticable miracles, or b) many of these interactions with the 3rd dimension are too small or not out of the ordinary enough to notice. Well, those are some of my thoughts, however I tend to over analyze a little...any replies are welcome [COLOR=skyblue]

[megadan]

"Scientifically speaking, humans don't appear to be evolving new chromosomes (or much of anything else; thanks to technology)" (tool FAQ's)

How exacly would having two extra chromosomes give us the ability to move through the four dimension? While we can picture this in a metaphysical context, if we understand this in a physcal context, evolving extra chromosomes isn't gonig to change the laws of physics. We may change our perception, but our physcial abilitys won't be changed.

(furhter thoughts on fireplaceporno's post):

And we have to consider the context of the fourth dimesnion in termsof the other three. The first three dimesnsions are physical dimensions, which all relate directly to each other through measurements of length, width, height, etc.
If we draw pictures on a piece of paper, we can start wiht a 0th dimension (a single point or singularity), extend it to a line (1 dimensional), extend at 90 degrees to form a box (2 dimensions), and finally we can draw a "fake" 3rd dimension, that is, a representation of hte third dimension in two real dimensions.
Let us then imagine that we have a 3d medium on which to draw, be it a computer, a model, etc. We can start fomr the same point, moving through line, square, cube... We now have a three dimensional object in a three dimensional space. the laws of induction tell us taht we shoudl be able to draw a "fake" fourht dimension in this 3rd dimension. Howver, when we go to add more lines at a rihgt angle, we find what there is no where to do. This is of course the 4th dimension is time. So we set up a video camera, and record the object moving. We show this video and claim to have created this fourht dimension (we'll say for arguments sack that the recording is a 3 dimension medium).
But if we think abuot it, we realize that all we've done is move an object through one of the 3 dimensions. We didn't move it through time, becuase time was all ready moving, and did not change based on our actions. Time does not care about anything that happens in the other three dimensions, it is utterly disconnected. Thusly we struggle with the concept and it's relationship to us.
Howver i would i would disagree that time is a "human concept of our solar systems and is not universal." Quantum Mechanics has shown that time is essential to the understanding of universal phenomenon such as black holes. For anyone who hasn't read it it, i would suggest reading Stephan Hawkings "A Breif History of the Universe", as well as books by Carl Sagan, and fiction by Robert J. Sawyer. Sawyer explores many of the quesions of the universe, ourselves, and questions of god and the university in the context of science fiction novels.
Also, you must read (don't laugh) Scott Adams "God's Debris: A Thought Experiment"

(appologys for misspellings etc.)

[ShackledEidolon]

Fantastic posts from everyone so far...I just had a question about a book mentioned earlier by Fireplaceporno...is that the book which goes through and "demonstrates" how to think in the different diminsions? I believe I have read a portion of that if this is so. I would definatly agree that people should read this in order to further grasp this concept.

Megadan your post completely explains what I had tried to say before...that we should in fact be able to emulate higher states in our own its just a matter of knowing how. At the same time however the reason that we (3D beings) can emulate our 3D world in a 2D environment (paper) is because the concept of 3D already exists for us. A 2D being couldn't create the 3D emulation because it would not have the mental capacity to do so. Without some kind of basic understanding of the 4th (or even higher) D we cannot fathom them. So there has to be some method to give us a glimpse or flash of it...spontaneous realization/knowledge...perhaps that is what is meant by prying open the 3rd eye....getting that flash of the 4 or higher D so that it can be emulated and demonstrated to other 3D beings

Anyone have any ideas on a way that we can emulate said higher states? or at least grasp the concept of said states? Obviously most people will say try drugs or what not but are there mental excercises such as Flatland or even perhaps Einsteins theories that could help?

[ragna16]

I don't that the fourth dimension is time per se, but the change of an object over 'time'.

In 2 dimensions, you can measure length at any particular width.

In 3 dimensions, you can measure length and width at any particular height.

In 4 dimensions, you can measure length, width, and height at any instant that that object exists in time.

In 5 dimensions, you can measure length, width, height, and change over time, at any moment in (insert name hear).

Length, width, and height are distances, you're just adding another complex distance in the 5th dimension. And since we only exist in 4 dimensions we can't comprehend the 5th, unless we change ourselves to exist there, and then explore that dimension, and since time isn't explorable we don't have a true grasp of the 4th dimension either.

[SideFx]

These posts have definitely aroused my curiosity to this subject again, so i thought i should share my foundings. I've listened to an mp3 (don't ask me where i found it, cuz i lost it already, tho it was somehow related with tool - i found it in a tool fan dedicated ftp awhile back) where a scientist delved in the +2 chromosome issue. He was saying that it all evolved from the aborigenies, from when they had 42+2 and could perceive any given moment of their past and of their ancestors past within their genealogy, as clearly as if they were in that particular spatial context (perhaps thru meditation and/or substance induced, as grasped by mudvayne's l.d. 50's intro, monolith). This obviously relates to beliefs of a common human conscience also...
The reason i was so intrigued with this lecture/interview, was that the evolution to our actual state (44+2) derived from the invention of the written word. We therefore developed other forms of communication, unconsciously neglecting these capabilities as no longer relevant. This makes a lot of sense to me, especially nowdays with media throwing us further apart from our enheritance, and into ourselves (which isn't always bad, as you might agree).
He stated then that some individuals (going out on a limb here) have now developed these 46+2 chromossomes, and are theoretically capable of inumerous things, while not exactly disrupting the time continuum (trekies, 'quantum leap' and 'time machine' fans might not like this reference to be taken in vain, heh), they seem to be able to transform an object's energy/reality into whatever their hearts desire...this, in the ultimate stage of our human growth, where our bodies will have no bearing, thus becoming purely energy, an individual cell of the collective conscious.
What he doesn't explain is what goes on in between, the possible stages that will lead to this godlike state, what also makes me believe that in the far future these 46+2 humans will mention us as 'the missing link', since cohexistence doesn't seems that viable to me (now is when u ppl go with the 'what drugs is this guy on' routine).
Spielberg's new blockbuster Minority Report, based on a Philip K. Dick story, recently stirred the masses again to these time perceiving issues. These common places make people remember having read '1984' and saying that the media's involvement, globalization and all, blah, blah...undermines..blah!
Others say that with the necessary regulators these new mediums will offer a cultural database for cultures to interact and evolve more quickly. Though i guess most of the 'educated' people lean towards the later, i can't help thinking we're facing the last positivism/negativism battle of our time. And for the 1st time it's mostly within ourselves, not others.

[rickiep00h]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we mathematically simulate the 4th dimension by using a simple distance over time calculation?

Travel from point A to point B. Both are concrete (as far as our understanding is concerned) realities. The points are there. They are quantifiable. They have amounts of distance. The time travelled to get there, too, is quantifiable, in a three or two dimensional context, on a timeline/numberline.

All four dimentions exist and we are aware of them, however, we have no way to MANIPULATE objects OF the 4th dimension, whatever they may be. We can touch and see and move 3d objects, as we are 3d creatures. We are AWARE of this thing called time, but have no dominion over it as we do a box or a glass or ourselves.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but I guess what I'm going for is that we can inductivly and logical come to the conlusion that there IS a 4th dimension, we just can't navigate about it, and THAT is what the next form of human will do.

I hate to bring movies into this, but, look at Neo in The Matrix. He has the ability to trancend the 4th dimension in a 3d world: stopping bullets with a thought and whatnot. We, too, will be able to change things at will...

But will that benefit humanity, and the universe as a whole? Think of the implications of a malevolent 4th dimentional being (some people will tell you it's God.) Would there be lower life forms, if God is indeed 4d? Are the two dimentional beings? We can't observe them? Thus, is God really there? Does he know he's interacting with us, or do his footfalls arbitrarily cause hurricanes?

I guess I brought up a lot there... and it was pretty random. I don't know what you'll all say, but there it is. ;)

[noisetherapy]

I think i'm a little too young/absent minded to be talking in this forum... you guys are geniuses... tool is definatly music for smart people eh? anyways, i dont have an idea, more like a question... I don't understand completely what the 4th dimension does.. i know what it means, I just don't know how it can benefit humanity... from what I gather, if we were to grasp ahold of these 2 extra chromesomes, and figure how to step into the 4th dimension, wouldn't that cause problems like making easier to lie, steal things, and cheat are way through life? would we be immortal from this? i guess my question is... is it worth trying to get into the 4th dimension, or should we just value our 'time' here?

thanks
sorry for inexp.

-Jeff

[rickiep00h]

To answer your questions:

Yes

Yes

And who knows. I feel that every step forward is a good one.

[ShackledEidolon]

wow, I take a weekend off and look at the number of posts!

Does anyone know how many diminsions have been predicted? I know that mathmatically there have been a LOT of them predicted. However even with this we are still unaware of what it would mean to have awareness within these states. Its kind of like the difference of hearing that a canyon is 1000 ft wide and standing on the edge of the same said canyon. Numbers do not give us the same thing as awareness. I think that we would actually have to have a new set of senses to understand and process information from a higherstate.

[paraflux]

Who really knows how many dimensions there are. I think several people have said there are 10. About the question of whether or not it is beneficial to humanity...

This... Is... Necessary...
This... Is... Necessary...

The question is not whether or not it will be beneficial to humanity. In order to reach the next dimension, we have to let go of fear, which breeds all negativity. If we do that, then how will the change be harmful? And will there even be a human race after the cleansing? The ones who move on might end up a new species. Not an authority on biology or anything, but evolution is necessary, like the guys drilled in our heads on undertow. Questions of beneficiality or harmfullness actually take a back seat. It might not matter, there might always be good vs. evil, we just have to step up and play on a higher frequency.

[shade13]

To whomever suggested emulating the fourth dimension. That way of thinking, while possibly beneficial to understanding what it is, is morally wrong. Emulation is simulation. Why would you dare copy it, and bastardize it so that you could contain it here, in the third dimension, when you could simply evolve and experience the true, real thing? Otherwise is blasphemy, and unholy.

To understand the dimension of time, one must first think of time, not as a static thing in itself, but as a flowing river of energy that permeates all things in nature and in life.

To understand how one may manipulate time, you would need to look to magick as a tool. The simple act of magick is described as obtaining the desired change thru the power of will. In this third dimension, the movement of ones arm to pick up a bottle of soda could easily be considered magick. Using the example earlier, our hand, moving the block thru the sheet of light would also be considered magick, or a miracle.

We already exist on that plane, we just don't know it yet. Scientifically, time is described as inseperable from space. United, as it were. The opening of ones eyes is to see this truth.

But, not all beings existing on this plane of time are "alive" like we are. Instead they are dead, or 'in the spirit'. Considered angels, or spirit guides, or ghosts, specters, whatever. When your body has died, and your existence, your being moves on, you are living on the plane of time alone. You can still exist on the 3rd dimension. As anyone can tell that ghosts at a specific haunted house do not inhabit a different haunted house as well simultaneously.

To manipulate it, which is inevitable, and not unholy, as I said earlier, magik is the tool. For a simple example, you would really like to have 5 dollars to go buy something. You excercise your will to make that need happen. If the need and the desire are great enough, what is a possible outcome, is "back in time" a day or so ago, a gentlemen accidentally dropped a five dollar bill, unknowingly. Later on after you've performed your spell, you're walking down the street and said 5 dollar bill happens to blow across the sidewalk in front of you. You pick it up, and the spell is complete. You did it. you manipulated events thru time.

[frater aaa]

"Do What Thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law."

I hear of the fourth dimension, I automatically think astral plane. For those who haven't heard this term, the easiest way to describe is as a universal fluid. That substance in which all energy takes on form in. For science now knows that almost our entir world is held together by a force, a universal network of vibrations. It is through this medium that sound, light, magnetic waves, and all other manners of matter (and do not forget matter as we know it as a solid is sipmly the densist form of vibrations.

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is only particles condensed to a slow vibration."

We may term it, as jung did, the sub-concious. That intangible memory of the universe that holds them in place. We know something exists because somebody created it- willed it to existance, whether through phsyical or mental labor. My will is to write, and so I use my tools (vocabulary, hands, keyboard, internet) to manifest my thought to others. This is not only a form of magick, but a form of creation.

Now, being a conciouness, we must assume that there are other conciounesses we can interact with. This is true of our phsyical habitat, our earth. But it would be narrow-minded indeed to assume that we are the first conciouness, or forms of it. We may even go as far as to theorize of other beings, who are not in need of a physcial body. We know that life can exist in differant degrees, from vegetation to man. But where does man go? What happens to the new born conciouness now?

For there is the root of sorrow in all that we do. The universe cannot be all sorrow, so what root exist past this physical vessel, what is the greater wrok of the universe in general? This is where the 4th dimension and 46+2 come in. To step through your shadow is to start thinking that your conciousness is eternal. The force that makes you up is the energy that drives the entire universe. Everything is everthing, and everything explains everything.

As thelemics like to term it, the infinte unkown, or this base matter is nuit, the infinite of all conceptions and she divides herself for love to create Had, or the center of every circle. Had is the first dimension- the point as euclid described it. This is the root if the "I" or the "I AM" function. This is the first will to existance. Now the formation of these two creates a child, the Crowned and conquering child. A conciouness aware of itself, a containing in itself all things.

Nuit is matter, Hadit motion. Both combine to create the universe, which is an interplay of love, or energy between two opposites

To put it more bluntly, this fourth dimension is the realization of the first dimension that it exists in movement (second dimension) and has its physical being in the 3rd dimension (space). The marriage of these gives way to the fourth dimension, which is the realization of Light, Life, Love, and Liberty.

But of these last things, I shall not speak a word, and instead, to all who understand, I point towards Aleister Crowley- The Master Therion. For I am not worthy enough to say one thing regarding these things.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will."
741

[honky]

I have read a lot of things and written little as well. I feel that the grounds of this entire discussion are entirely pure. The issue i have with getting out of the 3rd dimension and explaining the 4th dimension is communication itself, and more importantly language. i dont think that the 4th dimension will ever be summed up into words no matter how hard anyone ever tries. i think it deals with feelings and emotions. a higher level of communication...maybe the highest we now know. entering this 4th dimension could enable us to communicate, not just without words because we can do that now, but instantly through thought. this is what art is really all about to me. you can sit there and describe a painting in 5000 words, but you will never capture it the way it can be captured in a split second in time. i feel the way we can acheive this other dimension can be through music and art. i know when everyone here listens to tool, they arent getting off on lyrics alone. there is a force and a movement behind it that has driven us all here to seek answers and attempt to sum it up. i am 100% for this forum, but we will always come short in saying what we really want to say. (that doesnt go to say that we shouldnt keep trying!) but we as people are never satisfied and never will be and that will always keep us moving and flowing and coming closer...

[honky]

and by the way...everything really is everything...

[Tokes]

I just read this whole thread and my god it took a while... my eyes started hallucinating because of the white text on black background...

I do agree with you Honky in that perhaps the 4th Dimension has to do with communication, although it may not seem like one of the 'conventional' dimensions. Communication, cognition, thought and emotion are all something we cannot really express in words too well because they are formed out of a different substance. I believe this can be tied back to how 1 Dimensional beings have no true concept of 2D, 2D beings have no true concept of 3D, and so on. Us as 3D beings can understand and perceive beings in 3D as well as lower dimensions, perhaps things such as science, mathematics, stuff that has generally been well-established already (in some cases for thousands of years already). But we cant really understand or visualise things such as thought, and maybe that's what is waiting for us in this so called 4th Dimension. Also, thought and emotion can often be used to "measure" our experiences in our 3D world, much like 3D is composed of the smaller dimensions which give it some "meaning".

However I have a thought. A lot of focus has been placed on us as a race moving forward into higher dimensions, experiencing and perceiving things we could not even begin to imagine. But what if, instead of moving forward, we are really only moving backwards, to a point where we are once again only exist in the 0th Dimension, that is, a single point in an infinitely large space. From a higher viewpoint, it may seem that we are already just a single point, due to the fact that we know our universe is most likely infinitely large. But im referring more to the concept of Singularity, whereby we will all become one integrated existence while still maintaining our individual experiences by being part of a massive neural network of sorts, much like many particles form the basis of an atom (something which we view as so small and insignificant but is everywhere in the universe).

So how do we move towards (forward, backward?) this existence? My friend had an idea, which doesn't seem too far fetched, for a sci-fi book, about machines that let us transfer thoughts from one person to another, so for example you could transmit to someone your current emotions or a particular sensory experience you may have had. The reason I believe this is not so far fetched is because of the increasing rate of computing power in the last 50-60 years. Before a couple of years ago, computing power roughly doubled every year on average. But what happens when computers are eventually powerful enough to start inventing their own improvements? Basically what happens is instead of growing linearly, computing power will increase exponentially (at least). And if you know high school mathematics at all (Ive just finished basic first year mathematics at my University), you'll know that exponential curves tend towards infinity very fast. So when this does happen, very soon after the initial growth spurt, computers will finally be powerful enough to simulate the brain's innerworkings (with all the neurons and whatnot), which of course leads to the invention of these lovely machines I was talking about.

What follows is not exactly certain though. This concept is very scary to say the least, and it may seem as moving forward to some, but what if it all goes horribly wrong? Well then we'd certainly be moving backward back into the dawn of the universe's existence, well at least in our perspective (god knows what was happening elsewhere in the universe as the first amoeba appeared on 'Pangea'). I know this post kinda seems off-topic, but I thought I had something to add, and about half an hour later here I am. Any comments are welcome! This thread is a good read! If only I read more books...

Spiral out, keep going.
- Tokes

(Edit: Hey Moderators, why doesn't my signature show up?)

[paraflux]

Signatures take up valuable bandwidth.

You have an interesting viewpoint, or possible viewpoint on the subject. I don't know if we have to worry about computers taking over unless we start making quantum processors. The way they are made now, if they get much more powerful we will start to burn them up won't we? And you can't just put a bunch of them together in a chain because of the heat as well. I did hear that somewhere they were fucking with quantum or holographic chips and whatnot, maybe eventually computers will have intelligence to do things on their own.

[nina]

Originally posted by frater aaa
"Do What Thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law."

I hear of the fourth dimension, I automatically think astral plane. For those who haven't heard this term, the easiest way to describe is as a universal fluid. That substance in which all energy takes on form in. For science now knows that almost our entir world is held together by a force, a universal network of vibrations. It is through this medium that sound, light, magnetic waves, and all other manners of matter (and do not forget matter as we know it as a solid is sipmly the densist form of vibrations.


finally someone agrees with me about the astral plane and the 4th dimension...even if i was completely ignored before ...and now. I also agree with shade13 about manipulating the astral plane/4th dimension through magic/will and thus creating the desired change.
a couple people (i think frater aaa and tokes)have mentioned things such as the universe being a huge neural network and the creation of everything from the will of a consiousness. a website i found gives more info about this if anyone is interested : www.cfpf.org.uk
it contains some banned or suppressed articles (in the uk)that are extremely interesting especially if you like the idea of life after death and reading things that people in power don't want you to read and the like.
hmm
46 and 2 : some one said that we may change our perception, but our physical abilitys won't be changed by having this extra dna ( or perhaps the 2 is metaphorical for the development of something extra but not dna) .i think that is the whole point ie the changing of our perception will mean we wont need any change in our physical abilities because 46+2 people will know something that 44+2 people dont ,perhaps, like alot of people think, it will give us the ability to move through or manipulate time but i think that we already know this and the new development will facilitate our perception of it and other things such as the nature of the universe and everything and nothing (well thats what i hope anyways).which is quite useful i think as i dont see how an evolutionary change significantly affecting our physiology would come about . since it is our "intelligence" which could limit our physical evolution i think it makes sense that the next change would be to our intelligence in the form of perception.

ok ive rambled on for far too long
bye

[jc1om3]

I agree that the song has to with developing as a person, but when it comes to real evolution, I think people are going to far.

Human beings aren't evolving anymore, at least not in the way science understands darwinian evolution. People say things like, "we'll acquire two more chromosomes and then have all these new abilities." Chimpanzees have 48 chromosomes, so I guess that idea doesn't really hold up. The number of chromosomes a species has nothing to do with its "evolutionary progress". In fact, there really is no such thing as evolutionary 'progress' (read something like Steven Jay Goulds 'Full House'. Although there might be a trend towards increased complexity, this is no way means that certain species are "more highly evolved", or "better" than any other species. It does seem as though there are some good ideas here, and the whole dimension thing is interesting, but when it comes to the evolution talk, most people have no idea what they're talking about.

[ragna16]

It depends on what you measure evolutionary power in. Some people say we are the best because we are the only species to be scientifically advanced, and we could kill all other species on this planet. So because we can kill everyone we are the most powerful, and therefore the most highly evolved. Of course, I don't think this has much to do with biological evolution either.

[shade13]

One point I would like to make is that in our evolution, we cannot de-evolve. If we could revert back to the 42+2 state, I doubt our minds, or bodies could handle it. Instead we have to remember that ancient wisdom, while also incorporating our current understanding of the world. To me, it's mostly our perception that will change. That our eyes, our consciousness, will open again and we will awaken. It is not dissimilar to the basic living pattern we carry out each and every day. Understanding that, the next step in our evolution is the same as how you're a different person this day than when you went to bed the night before.

[shade13]

Allow me to pose a hypothesis.
Curently Science dictates that consciousness is the result of brain wave activity. Much like electricity from a dynamo.
The senses are the only way we distinctly know how to view our current environment. We see, hear, touch, taste, smell and feel. I do make a distinct seperation between touching, and feeling, with feeling being the more emotional state. More qualitative than quantitative. More subjective to the individual.

It is true that while you are sleeping, and dreaming, you are not viewing your dream with any of your bodies senses. Yet it is still fully possible to see color and shape, touch objects, feel emotions, smell scents, and taste foods (though, on a personal note, I cannot recall ever tasting anything in dreams). But it's also true that you can still be aware of all your bodies senses. ie. dreaming that you have to take an enormous piss, and as soon as you wake up, you still do. Or being able to hear your clock radio playing before you wake up. I'm sure most of you can find a time when you were aware of your body in your sleep.

Conversely, would the same not also be true for the waking consciousness, that it would be aware of the faculties used during sleep? Such as the sight of spectres, or ghosts, "shadow people".

What if the leap in evolution, and in our conscious selves, is to unite both these sides and to be fully awake at all times. To be continually dreaming, whether our body rests or not.

"Childs song stuck in my head / telling me life is but a dream / spent so many years in question / to find I've known this all along / So good to see you / I've missed you so much"

What if, it's himself he's missed so much. His "Shadow". His sleeping self.

[honky]

i guess its like taking acid, once you have expanded your consciousness, it is near impossible to go back thinking how you did prior to your experience. now people can deny the experience and lie to themselves, but i think that the perception cannot change unless you constantly force yourself to think otherwise...cheating yourself, being scared of truth, call it what you like....

-

also on faaip de oiad (voice of god), you hear the guy say "they are extra dimensional beings" which i didnt fully grasp until this forum. it just flciked swtich for me. if they were extra dimensional in the sense we are discusssing here, as in they exist on multiple dimensions and are able to manipulate their way through them, then we could say that they are more advnaced beings in the conscious sense? if we entered this 4th, then is it ultimately true that we could interect with an unaware 3rd, they way we can in a 3rd effect a 2nd without its knowledge? is this theory in effect as we speak?

[ShackledEidolon]

Well its fairly obvious that the term evolution or the use of chromosomes is a metaphor for growth and change in the way our minds process information.

As for the topic of computer/machine growth there have been AI experiments were all the neural responses of a nematode worm were connverted into code...the AI of the nematode behaved exactly how the 'real' one did...so it might be possible that we could convert the Trillion neural responses of a human brain (nematode has 702 i think) into code and predict how humans would respond. However the computer power required to do so would be tremendous.

shade13 - the idea of permanent sleep state is fascinating but I wonder if this state wouldn't be more like a permanent waking dream or lucid dream. Again this lucid state has often been used to enter the astral state...any information about the astral state often notes that we would have to relearn to see, hear, taste, smell, feel etc that at first we would be confused and lost...but become use to it after time. Im still looking for an appropriate place to post information about Awareness during Sleep Paralysis that I feel might shed light on perception of another diminsion

[shade13]

"the idea of permanent sleep state is fascinating but I wonder if this state wouldn't be more like a permanent waking dream or lucid dream. Again this lucid state has often been used to enter the astral state...any information about the astral state often notes that we would have to relearn to see, hear, taste, smell, feel etc that at first we would be confused and lost...but become use to it after time. Im still looking for an appropriate place to post information about Awareness during Sleep Paralysis that I feel might shed light on perception of another diminsion"

The idea of a constant lucid awareness was essentially the point I was attempting to make. A state of perpetual mediation, if you will.

I don't doubt the fact that we would be required to relearn everything. But unlike being born into this world, as we all have been, and being virtually ignorant of every aspect of life for the first few years, we already possess the knowledge of this life, and can use it as a basis for our understanding of the next world. Plus, we were born with parents here, and while not every one of them was perfect, they were there for us. We would have guides elsewhere too. And if not, thats why god gave us instincts.

[ragna16]

So basically a consciousness that would exist not as ours does in sensory perception but on another level where senses are shaded by 'hallucinations' and 'imagination'. We would have to open up another sight to be able to navigate. Thinking in 2 dimensions would be as easy in a 4 dimensional mind, as thinking of 1 dimension in a 3 dimensional mind. Completely easy, all changes easily registered. Brilliant hypothesis.

[Tokes]

Originally posted by jc1om3
Human beings aren't evolving anymore, at least not in the way science understands darwinian evolution.

I recently read in a science journal that slowly, but surely, the Y chromosome is fading out of existence, and that eventually "humans" will not have any Y chromosomes at all. However would we still be "human"? I believe this is one possible path of evolution for our race to take. We wouldn't necessarily become an all-female race. Who knows what else could happen after you lose the Y chromosome? I dont think we'd be humans at all because it doesn't fit in with our definition of humanity, so therefore we have to evolve into this new race somehow.

Another thought on the 4th Dimension subject. After I finished writing my last post I went to sleep and as I was lying in bed I thought of a previous post that refuted the "4th Dimension is Time" view. Then I thought to myself a possible definition of this dimension.

This world we live in and all its contents are existing physically in 3 dimensions. A collection of 3D objects is still just one big 3D object. But that's where 'time' comes in. I think of a 4 Dimensional object as the existence - past, present and future - of any 3D object, not measured in time intervals, but rather as one infinitely long scroll of paper (paper being 2D remember, for mathematical sake lets just say its a 2D plane in a 3D space). Any object or group of objects in 3 Dimensions has a 4th Dimension which consists of its past, present and future existence (which could also be thought of as a series of emotions, thoughts, etc), which I believe is not 3 seperate things but 1 continous object (a 1 dimensional line for example in a 2D plane). Now my point is not that there only exists one object in the 4th Dimension (that being the universe and its past, present and future), but that there are multiple instances (infinitely many for arguments sake) of these objects, each of which represents an "alternate existence" of its 3D components. For example, you can look at yourself, a human being, and everything you've experienced so far, and everything you will experience in your life, as one extension of your 3 Dimensional self into the 4th Dimension. But what if, for example, you decided one day in high school to cheat on a test? Maybe you would have received better marks? Maybe you would have been caught? All of these possibilities are extensions of your self into the 4th Dimension. This fits perfectly with the whole "we can't see the 4th Dimension" thing because we don't know what our lives would be like had we done one thing differently, and likewise, we can never experience someone else's life (if you had done one thing differently you wouldn't be the same person, you'd be someone else, who was very similar, but has not had the same experiences as you).

Obviously this raises the validity of fate and the ability to make your own destiny issue. But I believe that there are some 'moments' in each of your alternate existences which will occur one way or another, sort of like 2 planes intersecting at a line in 3D space.

But I think if we're talking about beings existing in higher dimensions altering beings in lower dimensions, then we have to think beyond the 4th Dimension. If we suppose that this definition of the 4th Dimension is true, then perhaps a 5th Dimensional being has the ability to rearrange the objects in 4 Dimensional space, and thus cause us to take different paths. Of course we'd have no idea this was happening, because we cant experience any 2 alternate existences at the one time, much like a 2 Dimensional plane experiences a 3 Dimensional cube as a line. And so perhaps at any one moment, we are experiencing one of the infinitely many "alternate existences" which occur in the 4th Dimension, however which one we are experiencing we have no control over, and we wouldn't notice in our current states anyway. I also think this definition could also fit in with the 'astral plane' idea... but I don't know enough about the astral plane to hypothesise.

Woah... that was long!
Any thoughts? Or am I just rambling... ;)

Spiral out, keep going.
- Tokes

(Edit: oh, and to tie this in to the song, the Shadow could possibly be one instance of your 3 Dimensional self existing with a different set of 4th Dimensional attributes, and that by stepping through the shadow we can finally experience two "selves" simultaneously, thus giving us a new and grossly different perspective on our 3 Dimensional selves and those belonging to people around us)

[honky]

would you literally consider a shadow to be 2d or 3d?

[honky]

i think time also flows in all directions. so could dimensions be interchangable, or is their sequence a neccessity? there are dimensions within dimensions.

[shade13]

Excellent! I'm very excited to know this is a place where people are willing to flex their intellectual muscle.

The basic thing you're speaking about seems to be chaos. If you've read either Dune, or The Wheel of Time series, they both have some excellent views on different timelines intersecting (Of course... I feel that Robert Jordan ripped off Frank Herbert and a lot of other people for his much more commercial release... but I digress). What you've stated is not that far from either theory.

With the chromosone loss, I see two possible outcomes. One would be a mutation, not unlike those frogs mentioned in Jurassic park, that could change their gender at will when the need arose. Or that we would become bisexual and able to impregnate ourselves. Not unlike an amoeba or other single celled life. That would be rather interesting. But then, we humans could not be classified as mammals anylonger. In fact, we may become a completely different class of species that the world has not yet seen.

Your idea about time and space being a 3 pointed object works well to me. It is stated that the symbol for god, resting in itself, always forms itself as an equalateral (there's that word again) Triangle (If you're american, that's the idea behind the pyramid with the Eye atop it on the 1 dollar bill). To create this world, in a 3D sense would be a collection of millions upon millions of triangles. Equilateral, or not. Essentially the exact same way in which computer game worlds are constructed.

[shade13]

I would define a shadow as a 2d object in 3d space. It takes up no volume, and only consists of width and length, though its plane is projected into a voluminous area. Good question.

Logically, there must be a way to connect all the different points through time. I do not believe that those points would have to remain in a static order though.

[Tokes]

Originally posted by honky
would you literally consider a shadow to be 2d or 3d?

I think its a linear transformation which takes an object in 3 Dimensional vector space and maps it to the 2 Dimensional vector space.

Maybe stepping through the shadow takes us to a 2 Dimensional universe?

[Tokes]

Its more than a linear transformation, because there are other variables involved (namely the source of light). If anyone was interested, the definition of a linear transformation is:
1) The transformation of 2 combined objects must be the sum of the transformations of the objects themselves
2) The transformation of a proportionally different version of the object must be equal to the proportion of the transformation of the original object.

Since 1) doesnt always hold for shadows (if you stand behind someone facing the sun, you'll only see the taller persons shadow), the transformation must be more than linear, but yeah, you get the point.

And oddly enough, Forty-Six & 2 comes on my playlist at this point... I love synchronicity!

[KILLIAN]

I have a question and I hope it's relavent.
If our shadow is a 2D representation of our 3D body, then takeing into acount the exhistance of a soul/spirit/ghost could our 3D body be a representation of our 4D body (spirit) in the 3D world/plane?

[Tokes]

Originally posted by KILLIAN
I have a question and I hope it's relavent.
If our shadow is a 2D representation of our 3D body, then takeing into acount the exhistance of a soul/spirit/ghost could our 3D body be a representation of our 4D body (spirit) in the 3D world/plane?

Absolutely! But not exactly in that sense, for all our bodies are just vessels... combinations of atoms if you will. Two people with the same body could (and will) have very different spirits. But it is certainly true that our 3D body is what is presented to people of our 4D selves in this 3D world. You can't visualise character, personality, and the like... you're just associating a face to it, but that is not its true representation.

BTW - you're from Sydney... cool!

[nina]

you said:"Maybe you would have received better marks? Maybe you would have been caught? All of these possibilities are extensions of your self into the 4th Dimension. This fits perfectly with the whole "we can't see the 4th Dimension" thing because we don't know what our lives would be like had we done one thing differently, and likewise, we can never experience someone else's life (if you had done one thing differently you wouldn't be the same person, you'd be someone else, who was very similar, but has not had the same experiences as you).

this reminds me of a theory of time that i read about where time wasn't really like a long scroll but it was a set of probabilities (ie the probabilities of arrangements of matter in the universe), and consiousness was a perception of a series of the probabilities that fit together.
in this theory i think the perception of the 4th dimension comes in knowing or "seeing" all the probabilities.
i'm still not sure about this theory though.

so when will there be a sort of general board where we can discuss things like this and go off on tangents and stuff cos now we are not really talking about the song as such?

[nina]

shade 13 - its a bit of a vague connection but buddhist monks go around in a weird state of perpetual meditation where they are aware of every thought /feeling /sensation and whatever. Ive tried to learn some of the techniques but my mind is so chaotic. also i had considered the Crowley suggestion of controlling my thoughts through negative reinforcment but i think that would lead to much pain.

[DarkSpiral]

I'd just like to compliment you all... This thread has opened my eyes... If anyone could link me to any websites related to anything discussed... I'd be much obliged...

I'm using 46&2 as a text for an english assignment on change... you've all greatly helped.

Back (kinda) on topic... I believe the chromosomes to be a piece of sacred geometry... A kind of catalyst, if you will, for the expansion of the un/consciousness...

I'm starting to read into Jung.... Again... any web addys would be very helpful...

~Spiral~Out~

[nina]

website for the campaign for philosophical freedom
www.cfpf.org.uk

[ShackledEidolon]

Most certainly the forth diminsion would be the perception of alternate "timelines" or even moving across parallel lines rather then along their lengths. And as has been stated we 3D beings would be totally unaware of another being choosing which line we live within at any moment. We would have no way of sensing it as of right now.

I do have a question about the shadow as it has been being used here. Some of you seem to be using it as the actual shadows we see upon the ground cast off of objects such as my hand or the chair im sitting in. However I'm pretty sure that the shadow within the song relates more to the psychological term used by Jung which represents the qualities that we have repressed within ourselves. These would be ideas, fantasies, goals, ways of existence that were not allowed to come to fruition because the conscious mind which regulates what will go through the filter has denied these concepts a right to exist. They became "shadows" things which are not tangible or really complete enough to exist in the way we think. So on another way of thinking these could be the alternate timelines, alternate possibilities that we have denied ourselves. By stepping through these "shadows" we would be walking or experiencing these parts of ourselves that did not exist before. Picking scabs (feeling again) and reliving what could have been had we made other choices. We would become the full person that our experiences have molded rather then just the parts we have deemed safe to include. As part of the previous notion that we would experience all timelines and possibilites goes we would yes indeed have been all these parts of ourselves all these facets of ourselves...live...grow...take....give...move...le arn....love...cry....kill....die....be paranoid....lie....hate....fear. We wouldnt just be the possitive or path that we have chosen instead we would be all the things we are or could have become. Regardless as to whether this could have meant that in some part of us we were homocidal murderers or saints...these are what we are.

[ShackledEidolon]

...in another post on The Mantra Iwas able to read about some Crowley and one quote seemed appropriate to the discussion we had been having about time.

"In the Aeon of Osiris {that last age} it was indeed realised that man must die in order to live. But now, in the Aeon of Horus, we know that every event is a death; subject and object slay each other in "Love under Will"; each death is itself life, the means by which one realises oneself in a series of episodes."


Every moment of our lives is in fact a single frame like in a projection. Moments filled with pleasure, pain, happiness, life, and death. But the way that we understand the world is by a measure of the endings of these moments. A perpetual death in order to realize another event. Perhaps in the next state we will come to realize a new way of looking at things...rather then seeing everything from the death of current states perhaps we will see the rebirth of each idea. Or the simultaneous existence of these slides as if looking at the top of a slide show to see the order of the frames, to be able to stop and relive "lost" moments or see the paths not seen before. I haven't really had enough time to truly give this idea enough thought to do it justice here but I thought I would throw it out there for more people to think about it at the same time so that we may in fact have more to work with.

[shade13]

Shackled Eidolon, I agree with you completely.
I have a saying, which, while I feel would accompany this well.

"Fire lives only to consume. Darkness lives only to consume. Black and white are merely two ideals, constructed by a man who knows not how to see between the lines. Forgetting struggle, forgetting fear, forgetting confusion and delusion, forging ahead to your own inevitable death, and you shall wake from your dreams. True human consciousness lies well beyond the construct of endless consumption. There are an infinite number of realities, more vast and varied than any current human mind can truly comprehend. If you wish to live, then die."

Thus was insipired from my reading the Hagakure. The Way of the Samurai. As a philosophical peice, its a wonderful work of art. It deals very well with understanding Death as a permanent way of life.

To answer Killian, Yes. To further expand upon that, to view our own personal shadow is to view the baser, more primal aspects of ourselves. Simply put, those things we try to hide, that make us feel like less of a person. Ties in very well to the Jungian aspects spoken of.

Nina - it's not so vague as you may think. Parabola's video visually describes the Zen Buddhist way to enlightenment. As for the negative reinforment, it's all up to the individual. In my past, I've suffered my fair share of emotional trauma, and because of it, I've learned some very harsh lessons on how to live, and view, my life. But one does not need to. One needs only to accept pain and know how to live through it.

[DarkSpiral]

'Of all the archetypes, the shadow is the most powerful and potentially the most dangerous. It represents everything about ourselves that we fear and despise.'

Taken from the tool FAQ.

[LyingRealist]

I was wondering with the thingy about the first dimension how it is forward or back.
I havent managed to think of a way to represent it.
because if it only has say height but no width then we cant see it like a dot say 2 mm wide but 0 mm long/high wouldnt be seen.
or is there someone who can prove me wrong?
P.s I love this forum everyone is so onto it.

[honky]

this is going to sound far fetched to some people, but this is merely a discussion so here goes...back to the shadow being 2d. perhaps there is a "formula" to unlocking the dimensions in that they may not go in their numerical order. maybe the key to 4th lies in the 2nd, or the shadow. "step into the shadow, comin out the other side" the other side could be 4d. going from 3, 2, 4. sort of relating to aenima, in the sense of moving backward inorder to move forward. like a sacrifice. also, does anyone think there are an infinite number of dimensions? if so, this leads to many many more random thoughts...

[honky]

everyone check out the new issue of JUXTAPOZ. alex grey is the cover article...

[shade13]

I would agree that one would have to go backwards before they can go forwards. As Mr. Keenan pointed out in one of the newsletters about a year ago "We must know where we have come from to know where we are going."
If you don't have an understanding of the lessers forms of yourself, then how can you possibly accept the higher?

[rickiep00h]

It's official. I'm lost. I didn't understand a damn thing you said, Tokes. Could you dumb it down, or is that all I'll get?

[Tokes]

Originally posted by rickiep00h
It's official. I'm lost. I didn't understand a damn thing you said, Tokes. Could you dumb it down, or is that all I'll get?

Which post were you referring to?

Mmm, I didnt read this thread for a couple of days and now it lives again! :)

LyingRealist: if you remember any mathematics from high school or whatever, you'll remember the number line. The 1st Dimension is basically the number line. An example of the 2nd Dimension is the x-y plane (ie the set R^2, where R is the set of all real numbers (infinitely large)).

Honky: you may have something there with the "key to unlocking" idea. Its certainly a possibility (a lot of things are in this universe). And as shade mentioned we have to look backwards before we can look forwards, so perhaps we are so caught up with our 3D worlds we are forgetting something vital in 2 Dimensions? I dunno... its going to take me a while to think of anything worthwhile (I just finished my university exams so its time to get drunk).

DarkSpiral: I did Prison Sex as one of my texts for change in self last year... I think doing Tool is good because its most likely the markers have no f***ing clue what you're on about so they'll just assume you're interpretation is correct (and hey - if it gets them to listen to Tool thats even better!)

Im off to a party peoples... ill post again very soon

Spiral out, keep going.
- Tokes

[Floydboy]

Just a few thoughts to add into the mix

For one, I don't remember where exactly I read it but an interesting read if I can ever find it again, there is a fairly reknown scientist in Scotland that is trying to get his theory published about time not existing. He thinks that all we observe as time or even the 4th dimension is just the rearrangement of particles according to the natural laws of phyics. I guess the best way to explain what he thinks is to picture a photo album chronologically showing an event. Each picture represents a moment in time, and that's how things apparently would work. He reasoned why the brain after long periods of time remembers things in such a fashion as that of frame by frame. If his theory were to ever gain momentum, there would be a large simplification of physics. As things become more complex in the physics spectrum, the time element causes bigger problems. Such can be the case with quantum mechanics where you have time-dependent and time-independent wave functions describing perhaps the energy of a particle. So the jist of the argument he makes is that there really isn't a 4th dimension of time, but that with enough theory and logic we can eliminate the time element altogether and really have a grasp on what's happening around us. Very interesting article if I can ever dig it up again. What was really scary about the guy was that he had the makings of the math to help his proof.

Another interesting read had to do with some phenomena of quantum mechanics. Apparently there have been experiments done with electrons (or was it positrons ... something of the like) where they fired some through an magnetic field towards some gold-leafed plates. I don't know exactly how they were able to manipulate the experiment, but I do remember the results. After a few passes, there were 2 particles hitting the gold-leafed plates (which were about 4 atoms thick or so). On one plate there were 2 imprints of where the particles went through. However on the next plate there was only one imprint ... so the other particle must have been deflected off on a different tangent, but that wouldn't have made much sense. Anyway they continued and looked at the following plate, and there were again 2 imprints of two different particles. So what happened with the other particle? Well if you study quantum mechanics of quantum physics, some of the states that are answers to the problems you solve have imaginary parts, which though making no sense in the observable world, are exceptable results. And to go from one quantum mechanical state to another, you just need something to get the particle there ... say a magnetic field. So in repsonse to there being more dimensions, well the reality is that there are many more dimensions out there that have existence, and at least mathematical proof. I think I heard once that there were 17 dimensions according to some of Einstein's work, and 9 according to string theory. The only thing that hinders us is that we have no current means of manipulating those other dimensions. I say current because I believe that we are on the horizon of finding ways of studying these other dimensions. For example, a quantum computer (way down the line, but still an interesting thought). And for some teachers, solving things in an N-dimensional field may be required. Anyway all interesting reads and theories that I have come across.

All these higher worlds that we are looking for most likely exist in one form or another, but we can't experience them for ourselves atm.

I may add more to what I have read later, especially some of the psychological theories ... but I always enjoy scientific discussions.

And on a completely differnt tangent, what does picking scabs have to do with anything about this stuff. I have no idea if Jung talked about it or not .... but kind of weird ...

[InfernalMethod]

Ahem, speaking of four dimensional beings....

I found the original message well thought, it has opened new doors for me, allowed me to pursue a fantasy or reality on another level.

I've always understood 46&2 a certain way, very much in-line with the thoughts already posted here. But I never made the connection....

Of course I'm sure most of you have read 'Slaughter-house Five' by Vonnegut, as I have. But 46&2 never struck me as being related. For the unenlightened, Slaughter-house Five is a work of fiction, about a man who, with the aid of FOUR DIMENSIONAL BEINGS, becomes "un-stuck in time". It is explained in the book almost exactly like a previous post: the four demensional beings travel through time with ease. If I remember correctly, they viewed time 'like looking at a mountain as a whole', being able to chose where they go, whereas three dimensional beings plod along in a succession of moments.

If I jewed this description all to hell then please correct me. I haven't read this book in years.

I wonder now, if the original post author read this book at some point in time and was influenced by it. I know I read William Blake's 'The Marriage of Heaven and Hell' while listening to "Parabol/a" and I now make connections and see many similarities.

For those who have not read either of the two, I highly reccomend it. Anything by Vonnegut and most of William Blake makes for great reading.

OK
MSM

[Jerk off]

OK, this is just a quick thought. Why are we assuming that 46 & 2 is the end of the evolutionary thread? Evolution never stops. We might evolve down or up but we are still evolving. We could go on to 48 & 2 or back to 44 & 2, or evolve in an infinite amount of ways. Does anyone get what i'm saying, or am i just making an ass out of my self? ;)


MW
Since the one thing we can say about fundamental matter is that it is vibrating, and since all vibrations are theoretically sound. Then it is not unreasonable to suggest that the universe is music and should be perceived as such

[ragna16]

Well, I can 'grasp' 3 dimensions, and understand somewhat 8 dimensions, where each previous dimension has no value in the next, length has no value when measured width wise in 2 dimensions, length and width have no value when measured height wise in 3 dimensions. None of these have any value in 4 dimensions. These are pretty easy to get. But what is the 4th, time naturally... But, if you can comprehend time not as a line but as a plane, or as space then there would be 7 dimensions, with 'time' expanding out into space, and us in 3 dimensions traveling in time on a line (not straight) somewhere. Another possibility of existence is represented by a turn in the line. So altering time, going to any possibility of events that could have occured towards any 'present' moment, would be the freedom of an extra-dimensional being right? Beyond this would there be dimensions that showed how possible changes in events could occur over a certain other 'time like interval', so that at any given point in the 8th dimension all points in the 7th dimensions could possibly be different than the points very near adjacent to it. Suppose that this 8th dimension could expand into a plane, and into a space for 10 dimensions? This would mean that at any point in 10 dimensional space 9 other variables could be altered. So in order to completely alter us, our past, our present, our environment, our future, and our possibilities a dimensional being would have to be able to exist in the 7th dimension, and they could be altered similarly by 11th dimensional beings.

[NickInCollege]

There are two ways that you can look at this issue of dimensions...
The first is that there are three dimensions... and that is it. The "first" (there is no real order) of these dimensions would be length and is usually expressed as meters. The "second" would be time which is usually expressed as seconds and the "third" would be mass which is expressed in kilograms. All other measurements are derived from these three base units. The third dimension I keep reading about here as only meters^3 (meters cubed). The second dimension I keep reading about is meters^2 (meters squared). All of these things... sound intensity(((kg*m^2)/(s^2))/(m^2))... color(1/s)... scent(who knows?)... volume(m^3)... force(kg*m/s^2)... energy(kg*m^2/s^2)... these are all derived from length, time, and mass.
The second way to look at dimensions is more interesting and suggests an infinite number of dimensions. This is to say that all aspects of an object/point can be classified as a dimension. In higher level calculus courses one learns to work with several variables at once... WE exist in an infinite number of dimensions... some of these dimensions can be expressed mathematically while others cannot. I could describe an object in seven dimensions... (one meter high, two meters deep, one meter long, exists at 4000 seconds B.C [or any origin of time for that matter], is blue, emits light at an intensity of 42 lux, emits sound at an intensity of 200 decibels) and each of those seven dimensions can be assed using mathematical instruments. We could also consider love vs. hate, fear vs. calm, moral vs. immoral and possibly could consider each of these to be their own dimensions and immeasurable by scientific means. This would mean that there are as many dimensions as we could come up with words for.
Here is my bottom line: the addition of "chromosomes" (which should not be taken literally as adding chromosomes but as figuratively progressing... evolving not biologically but metaphysically) won't advance us to another dimension! We already exist in all these dimensions! I think the only new thing we could "add" is the abbility to destroy or create dimensions; we could harness the abbility make our lives as simple (one dimension [[[no dimension? ha! comprehend THAT my friends...]]]) or complex (infinite dimensions: our current state) as we want at our leisure.
We cannot comprehend four dimensions any less than we can comprehend one dimension or two dimensions or a billion dimensions because we already exist in ALL dimensions. The apogee of humanity would be not to travel THROUGH dimensions in and of themselves... but to travel TO dimensions whenever we wish.
To step through the shadow would be to BECOME SOLEY two-dimensional! What a feat! To simplify our life thus... and then... to travel back to our infinite universe.
I really like the discussion here... I'm just sorry to have joined in so late... probably no one will even read this. Please comment if you do though. Free speech, right? Use it!

[InfernalMethod]

Response to nick:

I liked your post, I'm not sure I grasp all of it, but kudos to you, sir.

i would like to say, though, that it never occured to me that anyone actually believed we would progress into extra-dimensional beings. I certainly didn't....I sort of interpreted it in a symbolic way, sort of like reading science fiction.

I've heard that there is a tribe in Africa with a different chromosome set-up than ours. Their's being 42&2, our's being 44&2.

Now I don't know what this actually means, but its an interesting notion, isn't it?

What is the differnence, be it in body, mind, emotion, or spirit?

Let the Overman answer these questions, as Nietchze might say. Let the Futant step up to show us the way.

Ok
MSM

P.S. You live near me, and I wonder If we know the same people. Carollton, right? and College Station?

I know many people in both. My e-mail is in my profile here...e-mail me if you give a shit.

[honky]

well in response to nick. there is a difference between existing in something and comprehending it and even further to be able to control it. we live in the universe, but we cannot comprehend it, thus we definitely cannot control it. simply existing in all these dimensions doesnt fufill what were getting at here. it doesnt matter whether you believe if we live in infinite dimensions or none. the point is we are talking about advancing. the dimensions can be thought of as symbols. yes there are all occuring simultaneously, but it doesnt actually "place" us in all of them at the same time, in the same sense. we are 3 dimensional and are yet to enter the 4th on a conscious level. we are all entitled to our opinions thats what i love about this open discussion...for me personally im not there yet (in the 4th dimension) consciously, despite physically, meaning i may as well not be there at all.

[Tokes]

Nick: I think most of us believe that gaining the 2 extra chromosomes would not 'take us to another dimension' but rather let us perceive one that we cannot in our present states. As honky said, it is one thing to exist in infinite dimensions, but it is another to comprehend them.

Ragna: I dont quite understand your post... how did we arrive at 7 dimensions? I don't believe 'time' could take up any more than one dimension, because the notion of 'time' is that it is only a line... from what we've experienced 'time' doesn't go in any more than 2 directions; forward and backward. But I still don't believe that 'time' as we know it can be considered a dimension. Time was created so that we can label moments in existence, so really we should be considering not time intervals but existences, which is what I believe is the 4th dimension.

For those who couldn't understand my idea before I'll try recap briefly:

For arguments sake, let us say that every object in this universe exists in 3 dimensions, ie using the mathematical definitions every object has a set S of x, y and z coordinates which specify the space it occupies in our 3 dimensional space. For any complex objects (humans, metals, anything that consists of lots of atoms), we'll say that S describes the atomic structure and such of the object, not just a reference to a hollow 3D object (try to imagine the contents of S as points, and each point is an atom (or something smaller even)). Now let us say that any 2 objects that are described by the same set S must be the same object, as 2 objects cannot exist in the same space (if you break it down to electrons and such it is true that they cannot occupy the same space).

Now let us magnify the set S. Let S be the set of all points in 3 dimensional space, ie the Universe. So the whole universe can be treated as one 3D object (although it has infinite size). Now from our previous assumptions, there cannot be a different set that is identical to S, because it is S. But, if we add an extra dimension, we can have infinitely many sets S1, S2, S3, ... that are all described by the same set S in terms of 3 dimensional space, but because they have an extra dimension (which would have to be unique) then they are all unique and hence can exist in the same 3 dimensional space (relative to 4 dimensional space). Confused? Ok think of it this way. Say the number line is a 1 dimensional object labelled by the x-axis. You can put as many points at x = 3, but they will all be the same. Now consider the x,y number plane. You can put any amount of points at x = 3, y = 0 and they will all be the same, but if you change the y coordinate while keeping the x coordinate constant, you can have infinitely many points (and this forms a line). This is the exact same idea behind what I have proposed, although instead of adding another 'coordinate', we are taking into account the existence of the object (the existence being the past, present and future). Thus a collection of 3D objects (the universe) can be described by the same set in 3 dimensions, but has a set of unique existences in 4 dimensional space which we call extensions of the 3D object in 4 dimensional space. To give a simple example of this, one extension of the universe in 4 dimensional space is the current universe, and another is a universe where dragons and wizards exist (lame, I know).

The whole point of this is that in our current state, we cannot perceive the 4th dimension (or any dimension beyond that), meaning that we can't perceive alternate existences of ourselves, such as how our lives would change if we had taken different courses of action at some moment during our existence. But perhaps, in time, with additional chromosomes (or perhaps not) we will gain perspective into this 4th dimension in its entirety, not as a constant but as a variable which has infinitely many values.

I know this is hard to relate back to the original song material but its still interesting to discuss I think.

Spiral out, keep going.
- Tokes

[fireplaceporno]

I would like to ponder a situation in which a 4d being comes in contact with a 3d being. It is possible to assume that a being surviving in the fourth dimension does in fact have the ability to interact with the third dimension, and does in fact do so. There was a story almost a year ago (and many more similar stories I'm sure) in which a medical miracle acured. This miracle involved a child's failing heart:

Imagine a circle drawn on a piece of paper with a point drawn in the center of the circle. This is an object surviving in the 2nd dimension. Now, suppose you picked the point of the piece of paper, directly out of the circle. You would be removing something inside the 2d object oblivious to any object in that two dimensional world. The circle would go on being a circle, and the point is now moved, out of the interior of the circle, without disturbing anything in that two dimensional world at all. For the same reason why a 3d object can manipulate a 2d object without being discovered, a 4d object can manipulate a 3d object.

An infant was born with a failing heart. It was imparitive that the child be given a heart transplant, which was medically unsafe and impossible to complete in such an early stage of the infants life. The infant was released from the hospital with his mother and father on the notion that it had a limited amount of time left to live, and it was completely acceptable for the parents to want this child at home with them, away from the commotion of a hospital, for its last days on earth. An uncle of the child, the father's brother, came to the house on what should have been the last day of the infants life. The uncle said he had seen something, something strange, and needed to see the child. The uncle took the child into the bedroom, prayed, and left. The next day the child had a fully functional heart, only possible with the completion of a heart transplant...now, a possible explanation.

This story was related to many of the education I recieved on the fourth dimension for a couple of reasons. For one, the uncle explained what he had seen in order to rush to the infant in detail. He said that he had seen a being that seemed to be existing in all stages of life at once, from birth to death, similar to a glob of flesh, muscle, bone, and nerve, changing sparatically into all stages of life. Let's examine this phenomena:

A fourth dimensional being exists within a realm of time that is obviously inconcievable to a human being. However, in our three dimensional world, we would percieve this dimension in a form that is concievable to us (the hypercube is an example...search google: hypercube). Since time is not a measurement, but in fact a stage in which to move and navigate freely, a fourth dimensional being would exist at all times at once. Thus, the uncle may have seen a fourth dimensional being as one would appear in a three dimensional world, just glimpses of its overall existence. Think of a square on a piece of paper. If you shoved a cube (three dimensions) through this piece of paper, the square would only be able to see a line at all times. It would not see the volume of the cube, because it has no perception of volume. This is how a 2d object would see a 3d object in a 2d world.

Another oddity of the story has to do with something I mentioned before. Remember, if you place a point within a circle on a piece of paper, you can pick out the point without disrupting the circle or the world around the circle, and you can enter that object without any trouble at all. Similarly, a fourth dimensional object would be able to enter humans, and manipulate them, without 3 dimensional humans having any clue as to what has happened, and probably not having any clue that anything happened at all. This theory can explain the miracle of the infants new heart, and how it was "transplanted" with this working organ without any disruption of the human 3d world. Many other stories similar to this one have been recorded and documented. It is undoubtedly true that miracles do happen, and medical miracles are ones that are often very difficult to explain. The fourth dimension and its inhabitants seem to be a very viable possibility...

[ShackledEidolon]

This is very interesting. I guess one thing that is on my mind and that may need answering is how do WE change. How do WE become capable of seeing the volume of the square instead of the simple line. There has to be some way to explain 3D objects to 2D objects that would blow open the doors and shatter their previous worldly views...so therefore there should also be a similar way to do so with a 3D being such as ourselves. Could there be 4D beings attempting to show us the way? Or would they even be aware that we existed at all...I know that I don't know any 2D beings personally nor have I ever really assumed that a stick man drawing had sentience so why would a 4D being recognize us as sentient in whatever form that it is?

[honky]

as literal as a lot of thigns here are, a lot of them arent. the rules dont always apply as the steps go up. the obvious reason a cell doesnt know we move it is because it has no brain, meaning it isnt conscious is the same way we are. no one can teach you how to think this way, you do or you dont, you might even think you get it, and then youll really actually get it for real. anyway im not saying i know anything special. in fact, i think some of the people who understand this stuff better often have a harder time explainning it just because it isnt so clean cut. you have to stretch a little. anyhow that wa sa bit of a tangent but i hope i got my point across in that, sometimes not taking things so literally actually helps you see better, and then you can come back to it literally once you are more educated in that area, and you can back up all the facts. but if all else fails, use the info artistically and metaphorically. thank you. sorry.

[ShackledEidolon]

This difference in consciousness is key to what I was saying. Its as if we lack the language to communicate these ideas. Language defines our world for us...without it we experience things yet do not know what is taking place. In essense the language becomes our senses. SO somehow we must find a way to communicate the higher diminsions to ourselves....not an easy task when we haven't even had experience of any kind to base this language on. So it seems that we would have to be picked up and dropped into a fourth diminsion to understand it however even at that time we still would not be capable of recognizing our position....so we are stuck. Seems rather frustrating to think that we are indeed limited so severely.

Reminds me of part of "the fall" from the bible where we supposedly lost a large part of our intellect and understanding...perhaps we lost the ability to sense these other states in our flawed existence.

Its fascinating how things take on new meaning after you hit a roadblock. I might have to re read some of it again

[shade13]

A short while ago, I was reading a book called Uriel's Machine: The Ancient Origins of Science by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas which speaks about the birth of man, civilization, astrological sciences, and so much stuff that just went right over my head. But there's an interesting quote about Enoch.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder if them that diligently seek Him.

The quote is from the bible, Paul's letter to the Hebrews, 11:5-6 I think (the reference is unclear and I'm not exactly bible literate to begin with).

The thing that sticks out to me, is the word "translated". I take it everyone understands the process of translating a language. This is obviously a spiritual translation. Possibly from 3D to 4D? Definitely from this plane to the next.

The book is written by a pair of Freemasons, which may mean nothing to you, but it is rumored that freemason's are privy to a type of dance (ritual?) called the 13 steps. It is said that you learn these steps as you progress through the ranks and when you walk these specific steps you will simply vanish from the face of the earth. Many people may think that's bullshit, but there is a similar practise in buddhism. Alex Grey spoke about it in the exhibition area of his site. Om Manni Padme Hum. The frequency of our current universe. I see no difference between what Enoch did, what the masons may know, and what the buddhists do know. How to reach God, the next level.

What I'm thinking, is that there is already a completely developed study of how to evolve from a 3D creature to a 4D creature. That the information of how to do it is already out there. I would say the Parabola video showed you exactly how to translate yourself. What we're talking about here in this thread is essentially what tool's trying to teach us. How to find God. How to evolve to the next level.

[paraflux]

I always thought that's what happened to Enoch. There is actually an account of his translation in the old testament somewhere, I believe the metaphot used is a chariot came down from heaven and swooped him up and whisked him away. But I know it's something a little more than that. I figured he just was so in tune that he was able to do what tricky did.

[ShackledEidolon]

Yeah its official im going to have to go re read some things and then go buy some more books cause this is sparking a lot of interest. Anyone have any reading recommendations for learning about the Free Masons...they have come up 4 seperate times in 4 seperate conversations not from me in the last 2 days and I have to admit ignorance. I don't know anything about them.

The quote from Enoch is interesting...I don't think there were ever any other accounts of people exalted or "brought to heaven" without first knowing death. That is kind of a curious line of text. No doubt some would take the second quote offered by paraflux to be alien abduction but I wonder what else could be meant by this...wonder about faaip de Oiad where hes talking about extradiminsional beings (obviously the original track was a joke but it seems relevant at the moment)

Also if you have more information about any form of enlightenment please post it

[rickiep00h]

Yay! Tokes explains things in a manner that I understand!

[rickiep00h]

Both Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven without death. But past that, I don't think it's mentioned ever again in a Judeo-christian text.

[shade13]

Nope. Enoch and Elijah were the only two. I think Buddha himself was the only other one... but then again I'm not sure. As I understand it, he died in a cave, leaving his demon behind.

That divine chariot that paraflux mentioned, is actually the Merkaba. Also known as the Star Tetrahedron, or the Star of David (in it's 2D form). Drunvalo Melchizedek wrote two books entitled Flower of Life (volumes 1 & 2) which explains about sacred geometry and how to reactivate your own personal Merkaba. Worth checking out.

The books I have on freemasonry are:
The Hiram Key: Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas
The Second Messiah: (Same authors)
With those two books, they link freemasonry up with ancient Egypt, Jesus, and the Knights Templar. A lot of critics are not so eager to accept their theories fully, but the basic information they have will pretty much change your entire outlook on the world.

Oh, and since we're on the topic of death. An excellent book to read is Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai, by Yamamoto Tsunetomo. The version I have is translated by William Scott Wilson. Very excellent philosophical ideas about death and how to approach her. Of some interest is the title itself, Hagakure, which can be loosely translated as "In the Shadow of Leaves" or "Hidden Leaves". To me it signifies a direct relationship to the Green Man, who often is known to hide in the leaves (and show himself thru them). He's also known as The Dark One. Perhaps a more tangible form of the Shadow realm.

[NickInCollege]

Alright... both of these are probably going to sound really stupid... haha... but I'm going to post again anyway.

1. Has anyone seen that movie Donnie Darko? Consider everybody's question about what the fourth dimension would "look" like or how we would perceive this other dimension (which... if you read my other post, I think is fruitless and/or unnecessary.) Consider that weird shit coming out of his stomach as a projection of himself in the future? Perhaps? (I know... stupid to relate this topic to a movie)

2. Consider the forty six & two thing. This means we currently have twenty-three pairs of chromosomes. Add a pair and we suddenly have twenty-four. Twenty-three is a prime number or, as I see it, a number that does not easily "communicate" with other numbers. Twenty-four on the other hand is evenly divisible by two, three, four, six, eight, and twelve. Just a weird thought.

[Tokes]

Originally posted by rickiep00h
Yay! Tokes explains things in a manner that I understand!
Glad to help rickie ;)

Holy shit... this thread has become infinitely more crazy! I think now that I have 3 months vacation from University I might try reading these books on the Free Masons and whatnot. Hope they're not *too* big... I haven't read a book since last year in high school (1984 - and it was the best book ive read so far really).

I'm going up to the Blue Mountains* for a few days to chill out with my friends and work on my band's website, and to possibly discuss these issues. I'll be taking this thread with me for my friends to read.

Spiral out, keep going.
- Tokes


* Yes, if you've been hearing any news on Australia at the moment, that area is currently threatened by bushfires. Wish me luck!

[osiris]

doesn't Christianity say that the virgin mary ascended to heaven without knowing death?? I read something about this a couple of posts up, I thought this may have something to do with conversation. I can assume that "heaven" is only a form of enlightenment...I would like to expand on this but I am very tired and need to finish a paper for monday. just thought it would be relevant.

[rickiep00h]

Catholocism says that, I believe, in one of the apochryphal books.

Christianity is not Catholocism, don't forget that. Catholics (and anyone else, for that matter) distort the Bible so much that it's sickening. I quote Dogma when I say "They took a good idea and built a belief structure around it. It's not so much what your faith is IN, but that you HAVE faith."

And I HAVE seen Donnie Darko, and it's an increadible mindfuck of a movie. Although I don't know if Donnie really saw 4th dimensional beings or what. I... I don't know. That movie confused me, I just knew it was really good.

[paraflux]

Don't we already have the extra chromosomes, they have just been inactive? I am fairly certain that is the case, but I am not positive so I am not making a statement.

[Hyatir]

Originally posted by osiris
doesn't Christianity say that the virgin mary ascended to heaven without knowing death??

going with the whole ascencsion to alternate realities theme, the beginning part to disgustipated. Related? maybe not, but his "ascension" to the spaces betwixt the earth and all that helped him see something he couldnt see before from his limited perspective.

my Scripture teacher brought up the whole Elijah/alien visitation theory. hah, she said we'd discuss it too, right before she gave a no-questions lecture on something completely different.

I've always thought of time/the 4th dimension as being a half freezing ice cube. (heh, after i read it in the book chronoliths, go get it if you like scifi) The past is the already frozen part, while we live our lives on the horizon of ice and liquid. To us, (microscopic organisms living in the liquid, we cannot alter the past, its immutable, and unable to visit the fuutre as it is constantly flowing. However, 4th dimensional beings would be able to, stick a hot rod into the frozen part?
Just like we (3 dimensional beings) can manipulate 3 dimensional ice cubes, maybe they (4 dimensional beings) can alter the "4 dimensional ice cube" of time.

[Mark D]

I think that the key to other dimensions involves senses. As an organism evolves, they adapt and learn how to fully use their senses. If you truly think deep about evolution, it is possible that humans evolved from bacteria to amphibians to reptiles or maybe mammals and ended up being what we call human beings. At the start , these organisms did not have all of the sense we now know. They wouldn't have been able to smell or taste or hear as bacteria but that doesn't mean that those senses did not exist.
To tie this into the evolution scene, I would like to pose a quesion: How can we be sure that there aren't senses existing right now that we can't observe? We need to evolve and reach a new level in order to recognize these possible senses. Maybe we need to "Pry open our third eye" in a way to learn how to truly see. If we were to manipulate these senses, we may be able to find and determine what dimensions exist beyond the 4 that we know. Maybe the other dimensions exist only in a mental state.

I thought a lot about this subject and it is all my original thoughts. I put a lot of thought into this post, so if you have anything to add about my post, I would really appreciate your ideas. Thanx

[Mark D]

As to the idea of the shadow, I have thought of a good explaination. I think that the shadow represents a regression back into an undeveloped life. It is all that you have wanted to change in order to escape. I interpret the part in forty-six and two about the shadow shedding skin as how you must shed your past in order to start a new life. "I've been picking my scabs again", shows how it is tempting to disrupt change in order to remember what life used to be like.

[doug galecawitz]

All of this talk of three and four dimensions, it's very intresting but I don't quite see how it has to do with the song Forty Six & 2. But I don't quite understand either how you people don't see that you already live in four dimensions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure each person can recall their childhood. That in and of itself seems proff that you have experienced the passage of time through your body, through the whole of reality. Time itself is measured according to change that occurs. If everything in the holistic interconnected universe ceases to change then time has stopped. Time is very much intertwined with every sub atomic partical that to think of it as separate seems ludicrous (at least to me). And to sepearte one from the other takes an act of galactic destruction known as a singularity. A point of zero space and infinite density, a black hole that is. Or for more intense philosophical debate the singularity that spawned the universe around you in the big bang. If you believe in an oscillating universe then before the big bang there was a big crunch of some other collapsing universe before this universe. And before that, possibly another big bang. Better minds than us are hard at work with these questions. And if quantum theory is to be believed than nothing can ever be certin including quantum theory.

[Mark D]

Originally posted by doug galecawitz
All of this talk of three and four dimensions, it's very intresting but I don't quite see how it has to do with the song Forty Six & 2. But I don't quite understand either how you people don't see that you already live in four dimensions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure each person can recall their childhood. That in and of itself seems proff that you have experienced the passage of time through your body, through the whole of reality. Time itself is measured according to change that occurs. If everything in the holistic interconnected universe ceases to change then time has stopped. Time is very much intertwined with every sub atomic partical that to think of it as separate seems ludicrous (at least to me). And to sepearte one from the other takes an act of galactic destruction known as a singularity. A point of zero space and infinite density, a black hole that is. Or for more intense philosophical debate the singularity that spawned the universe around you in the big bang. If you believe in an oscillating universe then before the big bang there was a big crunch of some other collapsing universe before this universe. And before that, possibly another big bang. Better minds than us are hard at work with these questions. And if quantum theory is to be believed than nothing can ever be certin including quantum theory.
I am well aware that time exists as a dimension, however I am trying to express the fact that we cannot harness control of it. As forty-six & 2 tells of evolution through chromosomes, I can connect this song to the thoughts streaming through my mind. It seems that Doug Galecawitz did that too. What did his post have to do with forty-six & 2?
As long as it gets readers thinking it is important, so keep adding any opinions. Your thoughts matter!

[Dc23]

Originally posted by Mark D

I am well aware that time exists as a dimension, however I am trying to express the fact that we cannot harness control of it. As forty-six & 2 tells of evolution through chromosomes, I can connect this song to the thoughts streaming through my mind. It seems that Doug Galecawitz did that too. What did his post have to do with forty-six & 2?
As long as it gets readers thinking it is important, so keep adding any opinions. Your thoughts matter!

[rickiep00h]

Okay, I bought the movie, finally (it's ten bucks at Best Buy!) and watched it with a little more detail-oriented outlook...

It appears that Frank (the rabbit suit guy) is/might be a fourth dimentional creature, one that can control where he is in time/space at will. He imparts his knowledge on Donnie because Donnie is evolving, he's becoming more aware of his... growing awareness. ;)

The trails Donnie sees are the paths of the people they belong to... he sees the future, but only a brief amount into it.

Toward the end of the film, everything starts coming together, and finally, Donnie is transported, through his own doings (to a point) into the past, through a manner consistant with Stephen Hawking's theories on astrophysics and time/space.

How does that tie into the discussion at hand? Easy. Donnie is becoming one of the 46&2 humans. He's evolving and changing into a being that isn't hindered by the same rules as normal humans, something he realizes in the final minute or so, and laughs hysterically at. He is able to manipulate time, rather than simply observe it. In the end, Donnie becomes like Frank, a fourth dimentional being.

[George Bush Sr.]

Just wanted to say that some people believe that Stephen Knight the author of Uriel's Machine, The Hiram Key, The Second Messiah was murdered. He died under suspcious circumstance's. He told a lot of the secrets concerning freemasonry and people were upset.
The same goes for authors Danny Casolaro and Jim Keith
along with the man that wrote Fortunate Son which is about George Bush.
Also director Stanley Kubrick who died suddenly after making Eyes Wide Shut which was about secret societies. There are even clues about this in the movie. He almost knew he was going to die. Plus he sometimes had Tom and Nicole do takes on scenes over 100 times. The most in movie history. He wanted everything perfect.
Also some people think Bill Hicks, Hendrix, and Marley were eliminated by the elite.
I recommend checking out work by these people.
Thanks

[George Bush Sr.]

quote from bob frissell's book
"In the third level of consciousness, which is christ consciousness, there are fory six plus two chromosomes. The range of height is from 10ft. to 16ft. Here we are back into unity memory again, but its form in the third level is upgrade into one of instant manifestation; it is no longer dreamtime but real time. When you remember something it is real. It is not your memory but the memory of all christ-conscious beings that ever lived. At the third level there is really only one consciousness that moves through everything; it's key is memory. This is what immotality is all about. Immortality is not living in a body forever because there is always someplace higher to move. The key is not having a break in consciousness as you move through the different levels, not having a memory loss, being able to leave when you want and continuing to know where you've been."

[George Bush Sr.]

i hope i can spell better in the fourth dimension

[Deep, O so Deep]

Original Quote: "Megadan your post completely explains what I had tried to say before...that we should in fact be able to emulate higher states in our own its just a matter of knowing how."

Kudos to the absolutely refreshing posts and creative thinking going on here. Onward...

If you've red Frank Herberts "Dune" series, specifically "Children of Dune" you'll recognize that the Lady Jessica teaches her Corrino pupil to envision his hands becoming those of an infant and gradually aging till the decrepify and fall to dust, then back. This is a concept I believe may be a manipulation of a fourth dimension. While time in the third dimension passes at a regular rate, someone who can recognize the passing of said time and manipulate the visual dimensions of it has made a sucessful step towards that fourth dimension. Excuse me if I'm being obtuse or incorrect, it's just my opinions. And Paul Mau'ibs prescient visions in the first "Dune" book also pertain to a humans ability to move effortlessly through what we call (possibly ignorantly) time. I see this as you being a single "dot", or whatever you prefer, in ethereal chaos, and being able to move in any perceivable direction to "see" any possiblity of anything in the third dimension, and this may possibly be the same in the post dimensions. 4th sees third, 5th sees 4th, and so on. But hey, i could be 100% wrong. Thanks all. Think free, think well, fight opression.

[WrpdConscience]

I posted in another thread in the "46&2" section about this, but I may as well say it again. Apes have 46&2 chromosomes. We already had 48 chromosomes and evolution threw a pair out. So are you telling me chimpanzees and gorillas hold the secret to the 4th dimension? I'd better take a trip to the zoo then and get in touch with these spiritual entities we call chimps.

[WrpdConscience]

Now that I've thought about this a little more; I suppose that evolution could have thrown out an unwanted pair of chromosomes, and we may evolve another pair that suits us better than the pair apes have. I'd bet my life though that no one is going to "evolve" into the fourth dimension.

[paraflux]

and why would you do that? what info do you have that explains to you exactly what the next step is?

I dont attack you personally, so dont take it that way. I just cant stand it when people dont keep themselves open. Mockery of a thing doesnt change that thing.

[246]

I have spent the last 3 nights reading from this site. Thank you for all the wonderful comments you have made. Forty Six % 2 happens to be my favorite Tool song (if there is a favorite).

I guess I agree with the current theory about 46 plus 2 chromosomes. I asked my biology teacher (a woman who I trust) what she thought would happen if a human had 48 chromosomes. She told me that she wasn't quite sure what would happen but infact we have people with 47 and they are extreemely retarded. Mabye their physical brain is slow but their spirit can fly like a phoenix. . Mabye you need exactly 48 chromosomes. I guess I am not fully understanding how 48 chromosomes will elevate the relm of reality. Could someone help me out?

[WrpdConscience]

Originally posted by paraflux
and why would you do that? what info do you have that explains to you exactly what the next step is?

I dont attack you personally, so dont take it that way. I just cant stand it when people dont keep themselves open. Mockery of a thing doesnt change that thing.


Is this directed towards me? If so I'd like to let you know that there is a huge difference between being open minded and hiding from reality. I'm a very open minded person, but this idea of directly evolving into another dimension defies all science and logic. I don't have the EXACT info on what the next step is, but I can make educated guesses with BIOLOGY rather than stories made of pure fantasy about other dimensions.

By the way I believe downes syndrome is the disease where a person has 47 chromosomes and they end up retarded. Oh ya and there are women with 3 sex chromosomes, but they aren't always mentally retarded, just physically.

[CharcolFlame]

well i being a young, and nieve 7th grader hoo is very much involved in science and that stuff wanna say something about downsyndrome. there is a kid at my school with down syndrome and he is normal and dosnt seem to have any very profound relizations etc... still he is cool and is very much a normal person (even though he is severly mentally retarted) any ways he dont seem to be that much different then "normal people" i have a ? about downsyndrome though is the 47th chromasome a sex chromasome or the other kind(i cant remember what they are call) beacuse this difference could change everything(or could it?) now that we are playing god and cloning shit and fucken with dna maybe we could artificially make some1 with downsyndrome have another chramasome(possible?) well may b a few more years in school and readin heavy sci-fi will awnser my ?s

~Thanx if u respond u gize r reely reely smart about this stuff i wanna kno mor

[WrpdConscience]

Well I looked it up just to make sure, and yes downes syndrome is caused by having 47 chromosomes. 3 chromosomes are in the 21 "pair" of chromosomes (these are autosomes rather then sex-chromosomes) in a down patient.

As for people with 3 sex chromosomes it causes some cells to be XX (female) and some to be XY (male) which results in a hermaphrodite.

[watchtheweather]

that is a very interesting thought it will certainly make me think twice next time i listen to 46and2

[THCvocals]

Originally posted by nina
what is the full name of dmt?
is it produced in the pineal gland?

I know I'm a little late on this post, but for any good info on ANY drug, go to erowid.org, there's info on DMT, plus another amazing *LEGAL* psychoactive called Salvia Divinorum... used in divination...

[Reuben]

Few things for everyone to remember -

Think for yourself, believe in nothing... I can guarantee that Maynard does not believe in this theory - it is simply being used to represent growth and change. Beliefs are crippling, and a lot of people have accepted this idea and expressed amazement at its greatness without actually realizing its numerous faults. Pick everything apart, its good for the mind and god damn its good fun.

Evolution has little to do with the number of chromosones. The person behind this theory is, no offense to him, a complete idiot. Unless he was joking. Basic animals can have more chromosones than us, and it means nothing.
We don't evolve through drugs, listening to Tool (but hey, wouldn't that be cool?) or anything else, bar surviving. If 1% more people with big noses survive, then after thousands of years, the smaller nosed ones will be rare. Just as well, cos i didn't like em anyway. Occasionally freak mutations occur through bad replication or radiation or whatever, and even incredibly rarely the mutation is a 'good' one - the 'improved' lifeform will be more successful at procreating and surviving, and eventually will overtake the 'inferior' lifeform.

46 & 2 is just an interesting idea, nothing more. This idea is a good vessel for Maynard to communicate growth and change, but anything beyond that hes just fucking with you.

Shadows are just an absence of light... doesn't that make them nothing? Isn't nothing the 0th dimension? Whats everyone talking about dimensions for? How does a 3D organism become a 4D through having genes more suited to its survival in its current environment? I wonder what kind of magic 3D genes can spontaeneously convert an organism, along with another at the same time (they need to breed or they'll die out) into a 4D... Would it have horns? I hope so... Besides, evolution occurs through creating new organisms, we're already created and thus won't evolve while we're here. The only kind of evolution we can engage in is the evolution of ideas, which i now feel kinda stupid for saying since thats an exact quote of Bill Hicks and I'm starting to feel unoriginal.

Question everything, and fly, my pretties.

Oh, and please hassle me if I have anything wrong, I like it, I really do.

[sircorn]

Originally posted by fireplaceporno
objects within the fourth dimension are always existing at all points of time at once. For this reason, a fourth dimensional object could infact impose upon any part of our current measurement of time, change things, and human beings in the third dimension would never know the difference.

sounds like merkaba to me.

Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, without judgment.

maybe there's some sort of relation.

[sircorn]

cont. [merkeba lyrics i should have included]
Our body is light, we are immortal.
Our body is love, we are eternal.
Eternal..





goddamn,

yesterday i was thinking about this thread and pondering all these ideas, when it hit me. This is almost exactly like the Prison Sex video. It's probably just a coinsidence, but think of how closely related this theory is to the video. You have a greater being outside of the protaganist's "box" and a lesser being in one of those drawers inside his "box". Sorta like the dimentions thing.

i really doubt they are in anyway related.

[Jerk-Off]

I like all the discussion about the dimensions, but I think you guys need to re-think the evolution part. Well, depending upon how you are using it.


Evolution doesn't just happen because time goes by. It's very specific and happens for very specific reasons. For example, if suddenly everyone who grew to be over 6 feet had a greater chance of dying, then eventually the population would become basically all short people.

In order to gain actual extra chromosomes, there would have to be some mutation, and THEN there would have to be a reason why those mutated people had a better chance at surviving than everyone else.

The reason darwinian evolution doesn't happen anymore for humans is because we have hospitals and medicine and things to keep people alive who would normally die. It's not survival of the fittest anymore.. pretty much everyone survives (but, as always there are exceptions).

So, in actuality we will never really have extra chromosomes unless something drastic happens, but.. not very likely.



Now, there is the other point of view that this "evolution" is purely mental and just has to do with how we perceive our environment. I think this might be better described as "growing" or "learning" or "maturing", or things like that.. not exactly evolving.

Sorry, that has just been bothering me while reading this great thread =)

[Mickey Sanchez]

[i]
What I'm thinking, is that there is already a completely developed study of how to evolve from a 3D creature to a 4D creature. That the information of how to do it is already out there. I would say the Parabola video showed you exactly how to translate yourself. What we're talking about here in this thread is essentially what tool's trying to teach us. How to find God. How to evolve to the next level. [/B]

Shade13
I think I can say for sure that Tool is not trying to teach you how to find god and the parabola video is not showing you how to be able to move through time (As that is what the fourth dimention is and has already been discust in this post). Either you have gotten way to excited and started talking Bull or I have misunderstood your post. Sorry this post is a bit late but I thought that it was important enough to correct. If you have taken in anything from what Tool is trying to say is that their not trying to sell you their philosophy.

[Reuben]

Tool really don't want to make you think their thoughts or becomes as 'enlightened' as they are. They just want you to think, and find your own path to enlightenment. Like maynards quote before you enter the opinon section explains - they don't want to rob you of your ideas, just maybe act as a catalyst to the evolution of your methods of thinking.

[Mickey Sanchez]

Very true

[WrpdConscience]

Originally posted by Reuben


Shadows are just an absence of light... doesn't that make them nothing? Isn't nothing the 0th dimension?

Oh, and please hassle me if I have anything wrong, I like it, I really do.


I don't think I'm hassling you, just discussing. Shadows aren't a complete absence of light. They'd be completely black if they were. A shadow is just the light not making it through something so in a way I guess it's nothing meaning that It's not actually a physical object itself.

A black whole would be a complete absence of light and they are still real. Well there is light but you can't see it so it may not be the same as an absence of light.

[brettmck10]

im glad we are now aware of the 4th deminsion it brings a tear to my eye with all this great news...well what i can say is
i have been there and experienced it for a short time 6months infact....a little story i was born into this world third eye blind and very aloof, set a path from the ninetys onwards on discovering the keys.. alchemy, angst ridden i delved into drugs, alot of lsd and ecstacy in a city of strangers, i had a breakdown and that started the events like talking to the tv,radio and geeting inside peoples emotions and feeling them, i had many visions and angels touch me on this 4th deminsion and was able to communicate with people in a sentence while in a meditative state, fully aware my body was lying down and mind relaxed, i could transport myself and i could smell new surroundings, garden dirt, water etc
while i was aware i was in a mental breakdown i was still analysing this shift in concionseness all the time....
untill much therapy i came back home and it all seems like a blur with my memory of having attained genisis state.... gone. but i do warn others it is diffinetly out there but it can fuck you up attaining it, not just your brain but also the minds of your family's and friends ....if ya gonna do it fuck of into the forrest somewhere and dont came back because you know, you just might not

[Hogpile]

People affected with downsyndrome do have 47 chromosomes, but they are mutated chromosomes with defects. If you look at siamese twins you could technically say that is a being with 92 chromosomes, but being in that state isn't exactly what I would call evolution. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this post, is that the song is called 46&2, not 46+2. Tool isn't discussing a being with 48 chromosomes, their talking about us(46 chromosomes) plus 2 additional chromosomes not yet achieved on the evolutionary scale. If they were just talking about having two extra chromosomes the song would have been entitled "48"

[Hogpile]

By the way WrpdConscience, I agree with you, that people get a little too carried away with some of these concepts. While it is good food for thought, and it is a trip to think that someday people might achieve something more than these exsistences we are stuck with today, I don't actively pursue moving up the the evolutional scale anytime in this lifetime. And for those of you who think Maynard may have something here, and you want to pry open your third eye while evolving into some shadow-bending, mindwarping, time travelers, heres a tip: You might want to spend a little less time posting on here about how Maynard is your personal guru and telling people to be more open-minded, and start practicing for your time-warp evolution.