finally, i figured out the Lateralus Puzzle [Archive]

schismgrudge200

01-05-2003, 03:26 PM

let's go over the math of the tracks first and remember that the band has been known to show intrest in numerology. Basically, the methods used to piece together the tracks on lateralus are the same methods Columbus used to navigate the oceans and find america.
let's look at a chart, on the left, the numbers 1 through 13, on the right, the numbers according to their placement on the actual CD

1 6
2 7
3 5
4 8
5 4
6 9
7 13
8 1
9 12
10 2
11 11
12 3
13 10

6+1=7-2=5+3=8-4=4+5=9 then 13, the basis for the album the first tracks before 13 are the first spiral the next tracks are spiraled on the outside, this is when the numbers are charted in spiral format, explaining Maynards lyrics in the title track that "spiral out, keep going"
each pair of number in order of two, not inclugding track 13 have to equal 13, so for the second spiral
1+8=9 12-10=2 now you know the next track has to be 11 because the sums of the pairs must equal 13, so 11 is the same in either track order, explaining it's title "Reflection"
but anyhow, 2+10=12 and track 12 has to be 3 because the least of two number comes first in the addition for 13 and 3-13=-10
now some of you are curious, doesn't 3+-10=-7? yes, but look at the chart and just like 1=6 2=7 3=5 and so on...7=13
Now, put the songs in that order, eliminate the silence between tracks and youll even hear that the static from Faaip De Oiad begins while youre hearing the last tone of Lateralus. It all fits together but what is about?
It's a prophecy, it's a story about the character of maynard facing armageddon and the return of planet X. it talks about the gov't justifying denials, Triad is the battle cry between man and alien, but the real clincher is the closing track "Dispostion." "watch the weather change" i know it's kind of a short explanation, but read up on Planet X aka Nibiru, and tell me I'm wrong

jpmanson

01-05-2003, 03:40 PM

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/index.html

theres what i believe about "nibiru" or whatever the imagined planet x is supposed to be called..

jpmanson

01-05-2003, 03:44 PM

but, i would like to know more about that song arrangement, how do the songs flow into each other? im pretty sure ive seen that arrangement before. i never understood the math of it, and i dont understand your math either.. and im an abstract math major..

schismgrudge200

01-05-2003, 09:50 PM

ok, write down the numbers 1 through 13 on the left side of the paper
the right starting with 6 and 7 (being Parabol and Parabola) and make the following pairs = 13, using the small number first working your way backwards from the small # and forwards from the large #
1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 11 12
6 7
5 8
4 9
13
1 12
2 11
3 10
pair the actual track numbers to the way you would see the numbers on a number line
6+1
7-2
5+3
8-4
4+5
9

6 is the first track, so 6 + 1, 7 is the 2nd track so 7 - 2, and so on, alternating multiplication plus subtraction. Basically TOOL knew that using the #13 they could utilize this formula
but after #9 which in this order is track 6 you put the #13, because it is the centerpiece or the intermission if you will
then for the next 6 tracks you just follow that same pattern but work your way back in instead of back out, remembering that track 11 is reflection in either order and also remembering that the small number of the pairs that = 13 has to come first
so you get
1, 12, 2, 11, 3, 10
basically, the point is to get from one number to the very next on the number line using the clues your given, the clue of 13, and the clue of small number first
as proven in the pattern for the first set of 6 #s
so 8+1=9 as in the 8th track in this order, plus the track number of the grudge = 9 which following the two clues, or rules, has to be 12, so to get the next track, you subtract the next # on the line, 10, from the anser you just got, which was 12, and you get 2, now, you know, using your rules, that 11 comes next because 2+11=13, the only two tracks left are 3 and 10, so three comes first cuz it's the smallest of the two, and 10 closes the album.

Also, remember "Jimmy" and compare it's content to that of "Reflection" looking to light in time of hoplessness, and not to mention it's constant mention of eleven. which in either order of lateralus Reflection is track #11

paraflux

01-08-2003, 09:57 AM

Dont want to burst any bubbles that may have popped up over this whole alternative track order thing, but wouldnt it mean that the song order was carefully planned? I say any alternative track order, if it makes sense, was not by the hand of any band member. Which still leaves room for the alternative track order to exist, just straight from the higher perspective instead of the members knowingly doing it. Here's a quote from Danny that made me come back to this thread.

MD: What were the first and last songs written for Lateralus?

Danny: "The Grudge" was first, "Triad" was last.

MD: That's almost in the album's running order.

Danny: Yes, it's funny, we hadn't even thought about the order of the
album until we got to the mastering lab. we wrote the song titles on
pieces of paper, shifted them around, and the final order came out
almost exactly in the order we had written them.

Scobularni

01-08-2003, 08:21 PM

Danny: Yes, it's funny, we hadn't even thought about the order of the
album until we got to the mastering lab. we wrote the song titles on
pieces of paper, shifted them around, and the final order came out
almost exactly in the order we had written them.

I first read that quote as saying "the order was selected randomly", and was very skeptical, then I realised it didn't mention random at all, lol.

Anyway, the tracklisting Tool decided on after 'shifting pieces of paper' is way better sounding than your proposed listing (IMO).

The Grudge sounds very much like the first song of an album to me, with the long progressive intro, (without the machine noise of course), and the Reflection trilogy could only come at the end, as with Faaip De Oiad.

Any tracklisting with Faaip in the middle, and Reflection/Disposition split up, is not very plausible,

schismgrudge200

01-08-2003, 10:27 PM

im telling you guys, you've heard that Pi (the movie) matches up with Lateralus, try burning the CD onto your computer and eliminating all silece from like track, using like Sound Forge or something like that, link sound wave to sound wave, in the order of 6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10 then, as artisan begins to fade at the beginning of the movie, after youve pressed play, press play on the cd and watch that shit unfold, if it were as animated as Oz people would be all over it, but it's a cult movie, but it's completely about a lot of shit that tool is into, and it definitely fits the film like a glove, im not gonna go over the coincidences, but youll see. most progressive bands do look to movies to follow, for transitions and what not

Professor Frink

01-08-2003, 10:32 PM

Lateralus already works amazingly with Nightmare Before Christmas (to the point where it's evident it's not just coincidence). I have a hard time believing it would match up to two movies..

StoneRose

01-09-2003, 02:58 AM

What a fucking loser! Look at me everybody, I solved the Lateralus puzzle! Well Woop-de-doo! All bow to this genius. If it wasn't for dowp-licked pantywastes like this prick, the world wouldn't be in the shitty state that it's in. Ian Brown is god.

OpiAtE_666

01-09-2003, 05:06 PM

First of all, I think the new track order is pretty much bullshit:

For one thing, you can't break up d/r/t, they flow together as one. The grudge works perfectly as track 1 and faaip de oiad works perfectly as the final track. also eon blue apocalypse works as an intro to the patient, mantra works as an intro to schism, and of course parabol is an intro to parabola. Besides these songs flowing together musically, the whole album flows together thematically.

Secondly, the only prog rock band that I know of who have used films to write music is Pink Floyd, they did two soundtracks and the final track of Meddle, Echoes, was written to coincide with the final 23 minutes of Stanly Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey. Any possible synchronicity involving lateralus is almost surely a coincidence. Its pretty cool when a movie does sync up, but its not a hidden message.

So before we get carried away with hidden numerical codes and secret movie synchronicities, think about it:

Using the proposed new tracklisting the music doesn't flow together at all, in fact it sounds to me like someone just pulled it out of their ass.

A numerical code as simple as adding and subtracting one number could very easily be a coincidence.

schismgrudge200

01-09-2003, 06:32 PM

listen you fucking morons, we all know how advanced TOOL is, if youre TOOL, and you have 5 fucking years to come out with an album dont you thiink you'd put a little more thought into it than "hmmm, here's 13 cuts, lets just put them in this order for no damn reason what so ever", the songs werent that difficult to write, so what the fuck do you think they spent the rest of their time doing, i know i know, maynard was with APC and they were in court, but that doesnt fucking mean they werent coming up with ideas whereever the fuck they were, thats how musicians work man, they're looking to enhance their product whenever they can, atleast good musicians like tool, all you simple minded fucks who refuse to see that tool put much more thought into Lateralus than what was really done are just fooling yourselves, not everything is in black and white, or as simple as it seems, look deeper and youll find the truth, thats the whole message of the title track for god's sake, you think they'd give you an album at face value and then title the album after a track that tells you to dig deeper into everything, you may just go where no one's been, you guys are fucking stupid, and it's sad

DemiGodRaven

01-09-2003, 06:44 PM

Thats very cool that you figured that out, Ive never known about the Lateralus puzzle (I didnt really know about this site until just recently when I was looking for what the picture of the guy and the chakras represents on the cover)

but this line
"It's a prophecy, it's a story about the character of maynard facing armageddon and the return of planet X. it talks about the gov't justifying denials, Triad is the battle cry between man and alien, but the real clincher is the closing track "Dispostion." "watch the weather change" i know it's kind of a short explanation, but read up on Planet X aka Nibiru, and tell me I'm wrong"

You can find stuff about Nibiru (which is a mistake, Aztec astorlogy predicted this as a Brown Star, and Nibiru means "Farrey (or whatever that boat is)" as refering to our carrier to the stars. It is a mathematical answer, not a true planet as sighted. The pictures of it were actually Jupiter. Even the guy who discovered the planet "Zacharias Stitchen" has said it is not coming back in 2003, or any time soon. however, if you want to research on it, look here

www.xfacts.com

crow011

01-09-2003, 09:00 PM

ok, heres an idea for you . . .

if TOOL actually wanted this so-called alternative "real" track listing, WOULDNT THEY'VE JUST PUT THE TRACKS IN THIS "MYSTICAL" AND "HIDDEN" ORDER? . . . what do they possibly get out of having the "true" order all fucked up? . . . why would they want you to figure it out? . . .

i think its amazing the amount of independant and lateral thinking on this site, but honestly, sometimes its really hard to fathom how some peoples brains work . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

Professor Frink

01-09-2003, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by OpiAtE_666
Any possible synchronicity involving lateralus is almost surely a coincidence.

Like I said earlier.. Lateralus does indeed synch with Nightmare Before Christmas, and if you do it correctly, it's painfully obvious that it's a planned effort. Of course, I doubt there's any message to this, just something cool to do. There was a thread about the synch somewhere here in the Lateralus main, check a couple pages back.

Timothy

01-09-2003, 09:45 PM

While it's fun to speculate on hidden messages and meanings & so forth in the album and it's music, I can recall two occasions in which the guys have said that pieces from writing lateralis were left over due to not being able to fit them onto the cd. That could dash everyone's grand idea's of some big 'secret' in the album.

GoatKing

01-09-2003, 10:10 PM

I agree with Tim. I don't think Tool is trying to make their message confusing- all of their albums detail a spiritual journey or epiphany of some sort rather clearly.

You also have to remember that it didn't take them 5 years to come up with the album. Recall they had to deal with a lawsuit, change labels, and M. Keenan worked on a side project.

Most of these contributions have been a positive influence orginating from their music, and thats exactly what their intention is, wouldn't you say?

48&2

01-10-2003, 02:49 AM

Dammit, you could do some crazy maths equation on a Nellyville album and you could come up with a phenominal result...how did that quote go?

Latterlon

01-10-2003, 07:23 AM

I believe that this is not the "true" track order, but a different way of thinking. Just as the CD tracklist is a "lateral" way of thinking, and this "spiral" tracklisting is ordered in spiral form, it is plain and simple, too obvious to discredit it.

Example: In Michael Crichton's "Sphere" the group of scientists encounter a large sphere of alien intelligence found deep in the ocean. When the sphere starts to communicate with them through their computers, the letters are jumbled on the screen. It is not until the mathematician realizes the Sphere would think spherically, even in a computer world. So he then arranges the keyboard letter placement in a circcular pattern, which decoded the jumbled messages.

As with Lateralus, I don't think that either track listings are "the" right one or not, they are simply different ways of thinking, different thought processes. And the songs do synch, whether by chance or by intention. The Grudge going into Triad is pretty cool.

And, by the way, there is far too much negativity on this thread.

Professor Frink

01-10-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by crow011

OH . . .

MY . . .

GOD . . .

please tell me you dont think TOOL decided to create an album with the sole purpose of synching it with a movie called "the nightmare before christmas" . . .

you know, i hope someone from the TOOL family reads this page occasionally . . . i want them to see how COMPLETELY FUCKED UP we really are . . .

and i said "we"; not just "you" . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

It's funny how you bash me without even trying this out. Get a copy of the movie, and hit play on the album when the Touchstone logo fades away. Like I said, it's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that this is a planned effort. WHY did Tool do this? How the hell should I know? But they did.

ONCE AGAIN, TRY THIS before you bash me any more. If you do it correctly, it's amazing. If you matched it up right it's an amazing thing (the most obvious part is in T&L, the part where it gets loud again)... I posted this at another forum so I can spread how cool this is, and this is what hte person said:

[[i just did it tonight, and damn its an audio and visual masterpiece. It amazed me.

The beginning is awesome though, when Touchstone goes across the screen along with the feeling as though something is being turned on in the music .....But the tone of the music definately flows with the feeling in the movie.

Probably one of the best combination of visual and audio. ]]

So many people on these boards are great about allowing people to share their ideas and opinions and discoveries, and then there are people like you whose opinions (that this synch is completely fictitious) turn into facts (hey, at least you said "we" are fucked up and not "you" specifically :P )

by the way, credit for this discovery goes to EndEyeQuote

===========

And on another note.. good lord. I began that Pi and Lateralus thing, and so far, it's amazing. The part when Pararbola starts, especially. I've only heard the first couple tracks, though. Unfortunatley I have to go to class, but I'll be checking this out later.

Professor Frink

01-10-2003, 02:15 PM

Alright, I just watched Pi with the tracklisting you mentioned.. very impressive. Overall, I don't think it was as good as the Nightmare Before Christmas synch. But, I would recommend everyone give it a shot. Probably the beginning of Parabola was my fav, although the whole of The Patient and Disposition was very cool. Although, there were a lot of sketchy spots where it didn't go along too well. But, to me, it was fairly obvious again that it was a planned effort. Before people go bashing me again (:P) give it a try for yourself. You don't have to like it, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Chris_Brightwell

01-10-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Professor Frink
It's funny how you bash me without even trying this out. Get a copy of the movie, and hit play on the album when the Touchstone logo fades away. Like I said, it's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that this is a planned effort. WHY did Tool do this? How the hell should I know? But they did. [...]The same thing happens with Ænima and The Nightmare Before Christmas.

Rest assured that Tool did not write their music with the intent of syncing it "perfectly" with an animated movie.

It is, at most, an extreme coincidence, believe me. I've seen the sync, as have several of my friends. Most of them don't see the sync (for whatever reasons) and the other half are like I am -- "Wow that's cool."

But to assume that Tool wrote an album (two, even!) to perfectly sync with a movie is absurd.

--
Chris Brightwell // moderator

Professor Frink

01-10-2003, 07:26 PM

I don't understand how people can say it's just a coincidence though (that is, the NBC synch). It seems so obvious to me that not only the scenes match the mood of the music but also so many of the lyrics, enough so that it's apparent they did it purposely. Again, I don't know why. But Tool made some effort to synch these up. It is my opinion that if you conclude the watching of the synch thinking it's a mere coincidence you must be doing something wrong.

I guess I should just stop arguing.. different people will have different opinions of it. I've watched it approx. 5 or 6 times and it's a fantastic experience, and I'll keep watching it. If you choose to enjoy it, that's up to you.

Chris_Brightwell

01-10-2003, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Professor Frink
I don't understand how people can say it's just a coincidence though (that is, the NBC synch). Because that's all that it is. A chance happening.It seems so obvious to me that not only the scenes match the mood of the music but also so many of the lyrics, enough so that it's apparent they did it purposely. Again, I don't know why. It works with Ænima, as well. Pretty Hate Machine supposedly synchs with How the Grinch Stole Christmas. There are a *TON* of these synch's out there. This one is hardly intentional.But Tool made some effort to synch these up. No they didn't.It is my opinion that if you conclude the watching of the synch thinking it's a mere coincidence you must be doing something wrong. Or that you've got some concrete grasp of reality.[...] I'll keep watching it. If you choose to enjoy it, that's up to you.Enjoy it if you wish. That's your perogative.

Just realize that bands don't make music to sync with movies unless they are paid to.

It makes absolutely no sense for Tool to write an album that syncronizes perfectly with a movie that was released nearly ten years ago.

Even if they did - why do it twice? Ænima and Laterlus both sync up -- but it's a COINCIDENCE.

You could sync Gone With the Wind with a recording of my farts and burps if you really wanted to and you were willing to look deep enough and hard enough to find it.

--
Chris Brightwell // moderator

Professor Frink

01-10-2003, 10:17 PM

Alright, that's all fine and good. Your opinion.

Just curious though, how did you go about synching Ænima with NBC? Haven't heard that one other than from you. I'd like to give it a try, see what that's all about.

crow011

01-11-2003, 12:56 AM

far be it from me to make a judgement on anyone else, but . . .

professor frink - you are an utter TOOL . . . oh, look, it oh so obvious that TOOL have decided to synch an album with a movie . . . why is everyone being so negative towards me? . . . why cant others see this obvious fact? . . . why do i have such a tenuous hold on reality? . . . what is this fantasy world in which i am living? . . .

get a grip . . . musicians dont usually make their livelyhood synch with some crap movie . . and, no, i wont ever try it . . . im an intelligent human being with better things to do . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

ps: and i didnt mean to be negative or anything . . . its just . . . well . . . your theory's just FUCKING STUPID, man . . . thats all . . . :) . . .

Timothy

01-11-2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Professor Frink

If you matched it up right

: /

This could be done with any movie, and any album.
If you choose yourself a starting point, it's imposible not to have things appear to 'synch' up, unless of course you are watching a blank screen.

a_divine_martyr

01-11-2003, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Chris_Brightwell

You could sync Gone With the Wind with a recording of my farts and burps if you really wanted to and you were willing to look deep enough and hard enough to find it.

--
Chris Brightwell // moderator

I nearly pissed myself... ok so I didn't...

sandman

01-11-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by StoneRose
What a fucking loser! Look at me everybody, I solved the Lateralus puzzle! Well Woop-de-doo! All bow to this genius. If it wasn't for dowp-licked pantywastes like this prick, the world wouldn't be in the shitty state that it's in. Ian Brown is god.

That was rather pointless... he never claimed to be a genius.

Originally posted by crow011
professor frink - you are an utter TOOL . . . oh, look, it oh so obvious that TOOL have decided to synch an album with a movie . . . why is everyone being so negative towards me? . . . why cant others see this obvious fact? . . . why do i have such a tenuous hold on reality? . . . what is this fantasy world in which i am living? . . .

get a grip . . . musicians dont usually make their livelyhood synch with some crap movie . . and, no, i wont ever try it . . . im an intelligent human being with better things to do . . .

You're right. They don't usually make their music synchronize with a movie.

But then again, Tool does a lot of things musicians don't usually do.

If you won't even try it, I don't see how you can discredit it. I haven't tried it (yet), but how can you say something isn't true if you've never tested it?

Originally posted by Chris_Brightwell
1.Just realize that bands don't make music to sync with movies unless they are paid to.

2.It makes absolutely no sense for Tool to write an album that syncronizes perfectly with a movie that was released nearly ten years ago. Even if they did - why do it twice? Ænima and Laterlus both sync up -- but it's a COINCIDENCE.

1. Why don't they? What if there was a band that had enough money to suit themselves, and just wanted to try something?

2. Does everything they do have to make sense to you for it to have really happened? Of course not. I have no idea why they would have done this, but they may have.

OpiAtE_666

01-11-2003, 02:44 PM

Search for music/film synchronicities on google or yahoo, you'll find hundreds of pages based on finding synchronicities like this. There's supposedly like 30 or 40 films that Aenima synchs up with. Every Pink Floyd album synchs up with like every movie ever made... Darkside of the Rainbow is just the one everyone knows about. There's about a million different synchs that go along with Fantasia.

While NBC is not as visual as Fantasia, it is still a very visual film, and I wouldn't be surprised if the synch does look intentional. (I am going to try it with Lateralus, because I enjoy watching them even if they aren't intentional.) But even if every song fits in perfectly, its still just a coincidence.

sugarfreetheory

01-11-2003, 08:11 PM

This is my first post here, so I'd just like to say how glad I am to be part of a forum that is so intelligent and diverse.

Anyway...

The main reason I enjoy synchronizations is *because* they happen by coincidence. Half the fun is lost if I listen to an album I already know was made specifically to sync up to a movie.

I just recently discovered the joys of movie syncs, and I'm glad I found this particular thread, as I hadn't really thought of trying to sync any of Tool's masterpieces up to any particular film. I haven't tried the "Nightmare Before Christmas" one yet because I don't own the movie and I have my doubts about it, but I tried the "Pi" one last night because I had the movie on hand and a couple of hours to kill. I have to admit that Lateralus, by itself with no weird alt. tracklisting, is a pretty fair sync with the movie, at least the first time I tried it. I especially liked the part of the sync where Max is walking in a big circle, camera following him, while the "Spiral out, keep going" part of "Lateralus" plays.

All in all, I thought it was interesting and thought-provoking entertainment but there's probably a movie out there that fits "Lateralus" much, much better.

crow011

01-13-2003, 02:50 AM

on another board i used to go to, apparently "event horizon" with lateralus was the one to go . . . i tried it and it was bloody hopeless . . .

this idea still sucks . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

Professor Frink

01-13-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by crow011
on another board i used to go to, apparently "event horizon" with lateralus was the one to go . . . i tried it and it was bloody hopeless . . .

this idea still sucks . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

Hey, you gave that one a shot so why not mine? Even if it's coincidental it's still a really fun experience (the burst at the end of T&L alone is worth it). And the fact that you called Nightmare Before Christmas a crappy movie earlier shows you've never seen it! :) It's a classic, Tim Burton at his best.

EndEyeQuote

01-13-2003, 04:05 PM

i thought id drop into this discussion beingthat i was the one who originally posted the NIGHTMARE and LATERALUS thing being the one who discovered it more than a year ago now.

first of all everyone who wants to bash such a thing without even attempting it is just being simply ignorant and so painfully making themselves seem so. if you arent going to actually attempt something then your opinion on the matter is, sorry to say, completely null and void. if you WATCH it and then still think it doesnt fit at all - then you have that right.

second - i myself realize that it is more likely nothing more that an amazing coincadence, but that still doesnt detract from how amazing it actually is. if youd try it for yourself then you would see what i mean.

third - i have always been willing to acept that it was one or the other, a coincadence or planned. the one thing here id like to mention is not just that the music syncs well, but the way it syncs and the content of TOOLS lyrics in comparison to what is actually going on with the movie. to start off with the song changes everytime events in the movie hit a transition - basically almost without fail from song to song in NIGHTMARE it changes song to song on LATREALUS, and then as far as the content of the lyrics in comparison to the events of the movie itself, well thats a whole other post - i suggest you read the actualy NIGHTMARE post somewhere on this board because it was all already stated there.

and last id like to just comment on the ones who bashed the original poster for finding a pattern to the TOOL album. to that i just hang my head in sorror to the aboslute ignorance and pig headedness. the patter thing has been discusse at great length on TOOLARMY - this poster wasnt the first one to discover it but he still deserves credit for finding it because - oh my god perish the thought - TOOL did put a pattern ther quite on purpose and admitted to it after it was discovered

EndEyeQuote

01-13-2003, 04:07 PM

woah sorry for all the typos - its been a long day

crow011

01-14-2003, 10:16 PM

god fuckin' damn it!!! . . .

how many times must this undeniable fact be mentioned?!?! . . .

i wont try the synch because there is simply no point . . . its a fucking coincidence . . . and i am so sure of this fact that i would bet every cent i have . . .

i dont care if its a "cool" coincidence, or if you think its planned . . . ITS A FUCKING STUPID IDEA . . . and this isnt even my opinion . . . many people with most of their brain will agree on this fact . . .

how you could delude yourself into thinking that TOOL actually went out of their way to synch an album with some piece of shit movie is well beyond me . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

EndEyeQuote

01-15-2003, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by crow011
god fuckin' damn it!!! . . .

how many times must this undeniable fact be mentioned?!?! . . .

i wont try the synch because there is simply no point . . . its a fucking coincidence . . . and i am so sure of this fact that i would bet every cent i have . . .

i dont care if its a "cool" coincidence, or if you think its planned . . . ITS A FUCKING STUPID IDEA . . . and this isnt even my opinion . . . many people with most of their brain will agree on this fact . . .

how you could delude yourself into thinking that TOOL actually went out of their way to synch an album with some piece of shit movie is well beyond me . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

the total ignorance in this post is pretty suprising in a place that is so full of intelligence and free thinkers.

first i never attacked anyone who didnt want to try it, i simply stated you shouldnt judge something you havent seen - which you still havent which makes your comments all the more ignorant. if you dont want to try it fine - but dont speak then because you sound like a whinny child.

second - i do think its a coincandence - but you know what - WHO CARES? its still is quite awesome to watch - but someone as small minded as would post an attack at people that are discussing something that brings them enjoyment wouldnt understand that.

if you ever pull your head out of your ass long enough to try it out you may actually see what we mean - until then, this is what you sound like WAAA WAAA WAAAA

peace and be blessed...

holy reality

01-15-2003, 05:10 PM

hello.... i read the first nightmare thread on here and found it extremely interesting.... but i don't really have the time to go rent the movie and screw around with my cd player and just hope that i managed to hit play at the exact right mili-second in order for it to line up the way you guys describe it.... it sounds like a tedious process, even hitting play after the thing fades away, well different cd players take different amount of times to start playing

so do you all know if anyone has posted nbc and lateralus synced together on the net anywhere, like kazaa maybe? that would be a huge help

WizardOfGauze

01-15-2003, 06:56 PM

Unless the band is fucking with us/the media, they didn't start working on the album or anything related to it until good ol' Maynard was done touring etc. with A Perfect Circle.

And maybe all this math bullshit is just Bullshit. Maybe a little too much weight is trying to be lifted by the math professor. Maybe it all just "happened" and TOOL didn't plan it.

( is anyone else besides me getting tired of these many many people speaking of the sacred geometry, tablets of thoth crowley tetrahedron nonagram enochian magic board (note...3 of them of the same name) demon topics bla blah blah. Taking it a little to seriously here now. Sheepish?)

paraflux

01-16-2003, 09:18 AM

I would like to know where and when and how the band members admitted to there being an alternate song order. I really want to know, so if any of you can tell me I would appreciate it.

schismgrudge200

01-16-2003, 09:55 AM

ok, so let's discuss what the song Lateralus is about, all the while keeping in mind that it is the title track, we'll also discuss the musical aspect of things, so that you morons who refuse to believe the alternate track order may be slightly enlightened.

Black then white are all I see in my infancy.

-As a child, everything is in black and white, theres nothing more to it, things are just the way they appear.

Red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me, let's me see

-as you grow, you begin to realize that not everything is in black and white or exactly as it seems.

the next bit of lyrics are too deep for the most of you to understand having to do with separating the body from the mind

lets move on to:
im reaching up and reaching out, im reaching for the random, or whatever will bewildered me, whatever will bewilder me, and follow that will that wind, it may just go where no one's been, ride the spiral to the end, you may just go where no one's been

-basically, if you're intriguied by something, look at from every different aspect, much like a spiral, and you may just go where no one has been

if tool did incorporate a "secret" track order, they sure as fuck woulndt announce it, because then no one would have to figure it out. So for all you dumb fucks that doubt this track order let me just say that you're not dealing with a band thats going to give you all the answers, they're not Limp fucking Bizkit or some bullshit like that, Tool is a band that inspires you to think.

So now, about the music:
Parabol Parabola is in E, so is Schism, which parabola ends in guitar in e and schism begins with guitar in e, then schism ends and goes directly into drums then bass for Ticks and Leeches, all the while adam jones drops to D and then begins playing, then you have mantra, adam tunes the third string to E for Lateralus, so your looking from the top down at D,A,E, then you have Faaip and the tuning of the third string is back to D so it's D,A,D, like it was in Ticks, then the tuning remains the same for The Grudge, Triad, Eon Blue, then the drums start Reflection which gives adam time to tune back to D,A,E, which he rides through reflection, the patient, and dispostion
do bascially, the tunes follow the tuning this way, each time adam tunes, he's given the proper time
plus, if you fucking ingnorant morons would give this track order a try, youd see, if anyone wants an mp3 of the whole thing, without the silence as My Proof to you that it fits like a fucking glove, like one great song, ill email it you, just email me and ask for it, [email protected]

you guys are fools, i never thought people that were into to Tool could be such fools

sugarfreetheory

01-16-2003, 02:05 PM

People, just listen to the damn CD in whatever order makes you happy and less hostile. If everyone remembers this, then I'm sure we'll have more productive discussions.

Personally, I think the alt. tracklisitng is just another one of those serendipitous Tool/math things. It's interesting enough to make me go "Hmmmm..." but that's about it for me. However, if anyone listens to the alt. tracklisting and experiences some kind epiphany, be sure to share with the class.

crow011

01-19-2003, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by schismgrudge200

the next bit of lyrics are too deep for the most of you to understand having to do with separating the body from the mind . . .

. . . you guys are fools, i never thought people that were into to Tool could be such fools

fuck me dead - are you for real? . . .

and i thought i had a messiahnic complex . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

46&2

01-19-2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by schismgrudge200

So now, about the music:
Parabol Parabola is in E, so is Schism, which parabola ends in guitar in e and schism begins with guitar in e, then schism ends and goes directly into drums then bass for Ticks and Leeches, all the while adam jones drops to D and then begins playing, then you have mantra, adam tunes the third string to E for Lateralus, so your looking from the top down at D,A,E, then you have Faaip and the tuning of the third string is back to D so it's D,A,D, like it was in Ticks, then the tuning remains the same for The Grudge, Triad, Eon Blue, then the drums start Reflection which gives adam time to tune back to D,A,E, which he rides through reflection, the patient, and dispostion
do bascially, the tunes follow the tuning this way, each time adam tunes, he's given the proper time
plus, if you fucking ingnorant morons would give this track order a try, youd see, if anyone wants an mp3 of the whole thing, without the silence as My Proof to you that it fits like a fucking glove, like one great song, ill email it you, just email me and ask for it, [email protected]

you guys are fools, i never thought people that were into to Tool could be such fools

Alright man... since no one else picked up on this... I'm afraid I have to rip you to shreds. First off... before you go on ranting about how the tuning shows how the secret track order works... you need to pick up a fucking instrument and learn what the word "tuning" means. Parabol/a is in drop B/E tuning... not E. Schism is in Drop D... like the rest of the songs on the fucking album. It is not in stanard. Lateralus is in Drop D as well, and no, the high D string is not tuned up to E... thats the most retarded idea I've heard yet. The Patient doesnt use the High E tuning you suggested either. In fact, NO TOOL SONG USES THAT! And I dont know of any song in existance that does... because it would sound like shit!. So why dont you go learn something about music, you Fucking Ignorant Bastard and leave the rest of us to ourselves. Take your stupid bullshit fantasies and shove them up you ass where they belong.

Thanks, Fool.

schismgrudge200

01-19-2003, 03:08 PM

why dont you ask adam himself about the tuning man, before you act like you wrote the songs

46&2

01-19-2003, 04:50 PM

Why dont you pull your head out of your ass... I can play nearly every song in question along with the cd. There's no difference in the tuning I use and the one he uses. Thanks.

Nicholas_Pasha

01-21-2003, 04:22 AM

First off, I'd like to say thank you to "SchismGrudge" for putting some method to the madness that I had put to rest long, long ago. I swore up and down (by myself) that Parable and Parabola were made to go 1,2, but since no one else among my surrounding environment cares to listen to Tool, or much else I indulge in for that matter. Sorry for the digressing banter...

46&2, how is it you can justify your claim to having the ability to play "nearly every song in question" without their being a published list of "songs in question?" If you're referring to the std. track list, even the ultimately understandable, introspective alternate track listing; then what difference does it make if you can play "nearly" anything?

Further, have you considered requesting feedback from Adam pertaining this difference in opinion?

Lastly, for all with any open minded realm of intrigue, especially sugarfreetheory and CROW011. There's a insurmountable force behind the number 13 that may be slipping the mind's of most. And while this isn't a secret, I'll keep this idea to myself, for the same sake Tool would have with their acknowledgeable decisions. Take a look at The Great Seal of a RIGHTeous dollar bill in your sweaty wad: how many olive leaves are in the eagles grip, how many arrows are clenched in the other talon, how many stars are located in the Star of David (Israel?) above the eagles head, and the count of stripes that are, how many letter do you count within the phrase held by the eagle's beak? Yes, I too am certain that 13 is a coincidence and not thought of previously. (Albeit relevant, I'll leave the other half of the "Seal" out of this discussion for it's not necessary to discuss.) If you're looking for me to make a grave connection with my surfacing of the nonchalant, then I'll just say it's all has to do with the grand scheme of things and we're not discussing those who dabble in the business with just your average mortals.

"I'd like to thank..." -J.C.

Ciao for now,
Nicholas

Poseidon

01-21-2003, 09:54 AM

As all Tool things tend to have a second meaning, it is not so impossible for Lateralus to have an alternative songlist. In fact, Lateralus seemed to have fewer misteries than Ænima.

This alternative running comes as a sort of compensation. Who knows?

However, the main reason i believe there is a second running form for it, is that the so praised unity Disposition/Reflection/Triad didn't come as one single song. Danny Carey said they were originally designed as one song, but then they decided to split it, and yet he didn't mention any reasons for it, and this could be the reason. Conceived as one, there wouldn´t be 13 songs, but 11, and the loss of the significance of n. 13 (13 is the 6th element in the Fibonacci sequence (sequence of spirals)). Anyone remembers Undertow 69? Without the 13 songs the album would've lost its centre, its siginificance, and, moreover, would not give the oportunity for a separation and alternative running. To me, it is far the strongest evidence of the existence of an alternative running.

The second reason is how Faaip de Oiad has a completely different meaning and direction in relation to every other song in the album. A song about war, aliens, inside an album that talks about spiritual growth? Even "The Grudge" and "Ticks and Leeches" have that orientation. The first one sugests the effort to get rid of the anger, and the second (as the hidden meaning of "Hooker with a Penis" mentioned by Maynard in his interview listed in front page of this section) is refered to capability to love your enemies and let them abuse you, in orther to them to grow ("I hope you choke" could be said as "I hope you realize it is not good").

And yet aliens and spiritual growth can be interconected, perhaps in a strange way in the ordinary running ( preparation for armaggedon) or a second one (the very ambient of a war).

I hope knew explanations can be brought to light, and the meaning of every song be well explained in this new context, and I refer specially to the starter of the thread, schismgrudge200. I feel there's room to follow and it would be nice if he or anyone developed this theory.

46&2

01-21-2003, 03:24 PM

Alright, you probably should have read my post above the one you challenged, but that's fine. I'm prepared to back up my argument. Schismgrudge stated that with the alternate track order, everytime there was a "break" (ie: Mantra, Fiapp De Oiad) that the tuning changed. This was part of his support for the theory he presented.

Now, this is where my ability to play all the songs that he mentioned comes in. I can play all the songs along with the cd, which means my tuning has to match Adam's so it doesn't sound horrible along with the recording. I was pointing out that Schismgrudge got a lot, in fact almost all, of the tunings wrong. He said that Parabol/a and Schism were in standard E, when in fact Parabol/a is in Drop B/E and Schism is in Drop D. This shoots down the entire tuning theory. Also, the statement that The Patient, Lateralus and Reflection were all in DAEGBe tuning is completely incorrect. So, his evidence using tunings is completely invalid... which makes it difficult for me to believe anything else he has to to say.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Thanks

paraflux

01-23-2003, 09:01 AM

this has been utterly ridiculous.

There is no such thing as coincidence. If Lateralus matches up with Nightmare before christmas or nightmare on elm street it is still no coincidence. Hasn't it occurred that if we are moving to realize our singular consciousness, everything we do as humans can match up in some way or another.

There is a lot of useless hostility over this shit. you guys say peace and blessed be and all that, but it seems like peace is the last thing on your minds.

EndEyeQuote

01-23-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by paraflux
this has been utterly ridiculous.

There is no such thing as coincidence. If Lateralus matches up with Nightmare before christmas or nightmare on elm street it is still no coincidence. Hasn't it occurred that if we are moving to realize our singular consciousness, everything we do as humans can match up in some way or another.

LoL

good point

lastdaiz001

01-23-2003, 04:40 PM

Why does everybody have to be so critical of what other people say on these posts? Everybody is entitled to their own opinion right or wrong. That's the nature of TOOL's music. "overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind." Whatever inspires you to do something, good or bad, should be embraced. That's the nature us as human beings. Lighten up.

Metatron's Cube

01-26-2003, 06:34 AM

Im open to ideas that tool would create an alternate track order, especially with the spiral themes, and the fact the spiral can be represented with fibbonacci numbers. I have heard too much refrence to alternate track orders in too many places to dismiss it out of hand. But how could any band synch up an album to two different movies, in two different track orders? Even if they wanted to, it sounds impossible to me.

Ill try both of these synch's, because Im a bored tool freak, but I dont expect much. It would be cool if they actually did... but cmon'

Systolic

01-26-2003, 09:03 AM

MY GOD.... I just wasted 30 minutes of my great life looking at this stupid-assed thread...

You guys are SO full of shit!
Maybe you DID find some freaky coincidence.. but see... Lets assume that I made Lateralus... Writing songs is a long and tedious process... and after creating such beautiful artwork as is on that CD, yes I would have a particular track order.. but... I would NOT try to sync it with a movie... Thats ridiculous.. also.. Look at it this way...

Take Dark Side of the Moon... AMAZING album.. but it wouldn't work any other way. If "Money" or "Breathe Reprise" were put ANYWHERE else, the album just wouldn't be the same... and I think thats what Tool did for Lateralus. Its liek reading a book... If a book had 13 chapters, and you started with chapter 6, then read 9, then 4, then 1, then 13, then 7, then 12, then 8, then 2, then, 11, then 3, then 5, then 10.. it just WOULDN'T WORK. You would not get ANY enjoyment out of the book at ALL. You be frazzled and confused... Tool designed it to be how it is... and I think they did a damn good job when it comes to the trck order.

And ALSO.... they whole Schism is in E and stuff.. thats BULLSHIT... I am going to tell everyone rigth now what key EVERY song on Lateralus is in.. that way there can be NO argument..

Grudge - D
Eon lue Apocalypse - D
Patient - D
Mantra - None
Schism - D
Parabol/a - E
Ticks and Leeches - E
Lateralus - D
Disposition - E
Reflection - B
Triad - E
Faaip De Oiad - None

And that is EXACTLY right... So, anything else you hear is BS.
Also... What about this... Tool's whole message is to think for yourself.. well.. How do you know that the members of ool aren't just mockig us for all of our interpretations and such.. because when you think about it... We ARE doing exactly what they want us to...

So just shut up and enjoy the music.

46&2

01-26-2003, 09:26 AM

Actually... Both Ticks & Leeches and Triad are in D and Parabola is in B/E.

holy reality

01-26-2003, 11:26 AM

i don't recall there ever being a need to hit the low E string in schism, so i don't think it matters whether it's in drop D or whatever, but I haven't played much of the song, so I don't know.... but yeah parabola is in dropped b/e, adam even said so

noxy

01-27-2003, 05:29 PM

he wasn't talking about the tuning, he was talking about the key signature. i know it's not something tab-reading guitarists deal with much... (not to say i'm not one of them)

Metatron's Cube

01-28-2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by fifth
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,12,1,11,2,10,3.

Listen to the timing of the last bit of guitar in Parabola going into Schism and the drums coming out of Schism going into Ticks and
Leeches and you should be able to hear why this order is correct.

This was originally posted under “Maynard Splits” by fifth. This is an alternate track order is almost identical to schismgrudge200’s order he proposed. They basically sited the same logic in forming the “spiral” track order.

6,7,5,8,4,9,13,12,1,11,2,10,3 or
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10

So my question is, did they both think of this on their own, or is this order posted somewhere else on the net? Are there any validity to the fact that they sound better this way? Has anyone tried it?

Sorry to but in on the guitar tuning arguement, but who cares? There could be an alternate track order without song to song key matching. Im not saying I think the alternate order is true, but its interesting if it is. Any thoughts?

GernBlanston

01-31-2003, 12:17 AM

why those track orders anyways? why stop there? there are 6,227,020,800 different 'track listings' possible (13! = 1*2*...*13). why not spend all your time going through every one and ask yourself 'what does it mean?'

if you take the sin(13) then you get 0.42
if you take the tan(13) then you get 0.46
(think ÆNIMA)

if you are really looking for math puzzles, go nutz.

6,7,5,8,4,9,13,12,1,11,2,10,3
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10

the log(13) is 1.11
ln(13) = 2.56
13^2 = 169
squareroot(13) = 3.6

oh lord what does it mean?

crow011

01-31-2003, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by GernBlanston
why those track orders anyways? why stop there? there are 6,227,020,800 different 'track listings' possible (13! = 1*2*...*13). why not spend all your time going through every one and ask yourself 'what does it mean?'

if you take the sin(13) then you get 0.42
if you take the tan(13) then you get 0.46
(think ÆNIMA)

if you are really looking for math puzzles, go nutz.

6,7,5,8,4,9,13,12,1,11,2,10,3
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10

the log(13) is 1.11
ln(13) = 2.56
13^2 = 169
squareroot(13) = 3.6

oh lord what does it mean?

HA HA HA . . .

it means youre a talented individual with a penchant for maths . . .

peace and blessed be . . .

crow011 . . .

BottomFeeder

02-01-2003, 04:12 AM

Originally posted by 46&2
Actually... Both Ticks & Leeches and Triad are in D and Parabola is in B/E.

Just looked at the songs. You're right. The other guy is wrong.

ignore-reality

02-01-2003, 01:33 PM

I don't think Tool was spending 5 years between albums watching "A Nightmare Before Christmas" and playing with a calculator.......I think they were in court battling over record contracts and other bullshit.......maybe I'm wrong.......could be some other Tool.......

good in depth thinking I just don't see it match up, doesn't work for me so I can't think why

hism

02-01-2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by 46&2
Actually... Both Ticks & Leeches and Triad are in D and Parabola is in B/E.

Nay, Parabola is in E minor.

The -key-, not tuning.

Smokin joe

02-03-2003, 01:45 PM

i read yer first post over and over again, and i have no clue how you got those second numbers...

joe

Convoy_X

02-10-2003, 12:44 AM

are you saing that if i lesten to Lateralus in the order sugerted by the 2nd colem of numbers it will make sence as a story? and does this work for any other albums?

Sora

02-10-2003, 07:38 PM

I still don't get how to get the second set of numbers either.

Sora

02-10-2003, 07:41 PM

And also, how do I cvhange the track order?

awwww shoot

01-16-2004, 04:31 PM

christ man, what a stupid thread. schismgrudge200 is a retard.

aintsofar

01-17-2004, 06:34 AM

coincidence means two things happening together. everything is fucking coincidence. you reading this board & me having posted on it is coincidence.

give in crow, rent the movie and watch it and hate it. you'll still be a dick but at least you'll have some weight to your whinings.

Systolic, Schism and The Patient both spend some time being based in A, and whether or not they both start and end in D, wouldn't this be important?

MORNING_GLORY

01-17-2004, 08:37 AM

I've read all the posts on this thread, and honestly, I'm a bit disappointed.
The people who claim to be open minded and such won't even try the new track order or synchs or anything.
But the people who know it all don't seem to have any evidence of it.
Well let me attempt to straighten things out just a tad bit.

For all you non-believers out there, the alternate track order is real. It does exist. Believe it or not.
AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE,
Tool wants us to listen to both track listings. The way it is now, and the alternative. Its two different stories. Try it. (Tool really is something, they give us ONE album, and we get TWO different ways to hear it. What more can we ask?)

Grab a sheet of paper or something.
Write down the numbers 1-13 linearly. This is the track order as it is now.
Now make a parabola-shaped line connecting 6 to 7. Do it over top of the numbers. Then connect 7 to 5 underneath the numbers, and 5 to 8, 8 to 4, and 4 to 9.
Now you have the first spiral.
Faaip de Oiad serves as a connector or separator, depending on how you look at it.
So now we have 6,7,5,8,4,9, and 13.
Now, do the same thing for the second spiral. 1 to 12 (over top), 12 to 2, 2 to 11, 11 to 3, and 3 to 10.
Now you should have what looks like a small spiral infused with a big spiral.
Now we have 6,7,5,8,4,13,1,12,2,11,3,10
This is the alternate track list. It is created by spirals.

Coincidence, non-believers?

Now, to make a little sense of this, you need to know that in the Golden Rectangle the two smallest boxes are the same size. Now when you make the Golden Spiral connecting all the boxes, the two smallest boxes create a Parabola

FAQ:
** Great, so what is a "Parabola"?
We all know it's a geometric curve, but as far as what it is doing as the title of this song, the best theory has yet to come forward. One notion is that it approximates the shape of two bodies together, as in the lyrics of the song."

HMMM I WONDER WHAT THE TITLE COULD HAVE TO DO WITH IT ALL????

Parabol and Parabola create an actual parabola. Hmm... coincidence? I guess thats for you to decide.

Now how about some fun facts.

The 16th number in the fibonacci sequence is 987.
FAQ:
"Many of the songs had working titles, including "Lateralus" which was once called "987"

The 16th letter of the Greek alphabet is Pi.
Didn't I hear something about a synch with the movie, Pi? ; )

Coincidence?

In the 2003 October newsletter on the official Tool site, one of the pictures includes Justin (yes THE Justin) dressed up as that one guy from Nightmare Before Christmas.

Coincidence?

This post is supposed to show you all how the alternate track order was created. There are so many more similarities to it, that I don't even want to list them all right now. I also posted this to show that there are such things as coincidences, and they are ALL worth contemplating. But it doesn't mean that everything that has a slight connection is intended. Maybe Tool did a synch with a movie, and we haven't discovered it yet. If someone came to these boards and told us, they would get shot down, because everyone thinks its a stupid idea. Even if it was true.
So if a new idea or something comes along, try it out. Look at it with an open mind. If you don't buy it, thats fine. You don't have to. But to just say something isn't true without actual consideration, well that is ignorance.

I think we are losing focus here.

MORNING_GLORY

01-17-2004, 08:51 AM

And one more thing.
I don't believe this is the full "secret to lateralus"
I think its only a portion.
Lateralus has so many coincidences and allusions and metaphors, I think one day someone will figure it all out and, "bring the pieces back together."
But this alternate track order, which most of you all decide not to accept, its only a piece of the puzzle.
Tool didn't make it that easy.

awwww shoot

01-17-2004, 01:12 PM

aintsofar

01-17-2004, 11:05 PM

why is everyone spelling 'sync' with an 'h'?

Chris_Brightwell

01-18-2004, 12:24 AM

why is everyone spelling 'sync' with an 'h'?Main Entry: sync
Variant(s): also synch /'si[ng]k/
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): synced also synched /'si[ng](k)t/; sync·ing also synch·ing /'si[ng]-ki[ng]/
Date: 1929
: SYNCHRONIZE Just a hunch, though.

aintsofar

01-18-2004, 09:12 AM

sync - 1929, shortened form of synchronization. Sense of "be in agreement, coincide" first recorded 1961 in in sync.

but, fair enough. it's like writing "okay" instead of "O.K.", which itself doesn't make any sense. or "alright" instead of "all right". or "teh". =)

Chris_Brightwell += 1;

corps d'allumen

01-19-2004, 07:24 PM

that was like seeing something terrible, like a car accident, and it makes you ill to look but you look anyways...

Doctor Strange's Book of Names

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Send feedback, corrections, input, questions, support, etc. to neilalien_webmaster%40yahoo.com.
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Adria
A villainous sorcerer. One of the trio of Baron Mordo's disciples along with Demonicus and Kaecilius. First appearance ST #142. Currently trapped in the Purple Dimension [DS #56].

Agamotto
One of the triad of powerful extradimensional beings known as The Vishanti.

Ancient One, The
Dr. Strange's mentor. The Sorcerer Supreme of Earth's dimension before Doc. First appearance [ST #110]. Deceased- sacrificed himself to be killed by Doc to defeat Shuma-Gorath [MP #10].

Anomaly Rue, The
An arcane geomagickal correlation. The shape in Doctor Strange's window.

http://www.neilalien.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------sure, it could be true...

there are no 'answers' in the tracklist or the tunings. you'd be better off reading comics. do some research before spouting true absurdities...

corps d'allumen

01-19-2004, 09:09 PM

i'll bet maynard didn't just think of a good title for this album either. i'll bet the title has something to do with all of this crazy math stuff because mayanrd's not a sheep who would just THINK of a good title for his work. that's gay. i'll bet if you astrally project while listening to the album, you reach enlightenment or something. or maybe maynard spent hous thinking of many theories involving sacred geometry just so he can put something related to it in the title of the album.

man, bless maynard for making us think for ourselves

"is thinking about what maynard thinks about thinking for yourself? because i think you are just thinking about what you think maynard is thinking about thinking that you are thinking for yourself, when really you're just thinking about maynard. what do you think?"

i thought it was funny, if you were being sarcastic.
i thought it was funny, if you were being serious.
i just thought it was funny.

My Third Eye

02-12-2004, 06:09 PM

I don't know about the puzzle on Lateralus being true or not, but I think it is very possible. Aaliyah did something similar on her album, that came out just about 2 months after Lateralus did. You guys should seriously check her out. I talked to the producer of it, and there is indeed a hidden mathematical puzzle embedded in the cd which I haven't even come close to completely solving yet. I could use some help actually. The only thing about it is that it coorelates with the time signatures in each song and because she uses polymeters is almost every song I've had a hard time decyphering the puzzle. I'd love to see Tool try and do that on the next cd.

Talonwulf

02-13-2004, 04:36 AM

I tried what you said. It barely connects. Still its a good try. But please for fuck sake, dont say "I CRACKED IT!" cos if any1 disagrees with you that will be the first thing they criticize u on

It is weird though, The grudge and blue eon apocalypse seems to merge with the video of parabola. Maybe its the same for the whole album - You gotta merge the songs together differently. Altho i think the grudge connecting with the video was just for fun by Tool, cos [this is going to my theory of parabol/a] i think parabol is PARABLE [story with a meaning in order to teach a moral or religious point] and well basically i think the video is telling us about chakra.

Please dont try and accuse this guy for doing anything wrong. He tried to get something, he posted it, and then he gets bullshit from everyone. But, schismgrudge, i gotta admit ur acting like an asshole when you get flamed. You should just ignore them. If its what u believe then fine, then u will know that the rest of us are a bunch of ignorant shits

Talonwulf

02-13-2004, 04:42 AM

i'll bet maynard didn't just think of a good title for this album either. i'll bet the title has something to do with all of this crazy math stuff because mayanrd's not a sheep who would just THINK of a good title for his work. that's gay. i'll bet if you astrally project while listening to the album, you reach enlightenment or something. or maybe maynard spent hous thinking of many theories involving sacred geometry just so he can put something related to it in the title of the album.

man, bless maynard for making us think for ourselves

hey uhm... You dont get it do you? You are following maynards words. Whos the sheep?

Its ironic. Tool want to make songs to please themselves. They do want people to listen to their music and be more open, but they clearly see how funny it is when someone says they arent sheep but go off and buy tool's albums to learn. Hence the song "Useful idiot". Sounds like ur CD is broken? Go buy another one. Baaa!

Madklikor

02-13-2004, 09:02 AM

So now, about the music:
Parabol Parabola is in E, so is Schism

Schism isn't in E, and doesn't begin in E. It's basically in D minor and A minor, with variations.

, then you have mantra, adam tunes the third string to E for Lateralus, so your looking from the top down at D,A,E

Hum. What? Lateralus is in dropped-d tunning all the way.

, like it was in Ticks, then the tuning remains the same for The Grudge, Triad, Eon Blue, then the drums start Reflection which gives adam time to tune back to D,A,E, which he rides through reflection, the patient, and dispostion

Hey, all the album is in dropped-d tuning, except disposition which you could play in standard tuning. Tunning to D,A,E is totally useless.

, do bascially, the tunes follow the tuning this way, each time adam tunes, he's given the proper time

.... it's an album, Adam doesn't need to have any time to tune... furthermore, in a live concert situatin he would change guitars in between songs if he wanted to change tunnings, not retune his guitar.

if anyone wants an mp3 of the whole thing, without the silence as My Proof to you that it fits like a fucking glove, like one great song, ill email it you, just email me and ask for it, [email protected]

Yeah I would like to have it. As I have already said, musically, it doesn't have any consistency (except the end of parabola/beginning of schism thing). If it's intentionnal, it's a funny stuff to toy with the fans, but nothing more. So have fun with it... but artisticaly it's pretty poor and inconsistent (if you want fucked-up music dealing with mathematics and formulas, you should try to listen to I. Xenakis).

stephenlc

02-16-2004, 04:44 AM

corps d'allumen

02-19-2004, 11:11 AM

Hi this is my first post, but I remember when Chino Moreno from Deftones worked with Maynard on the song passanger from White Pony. He said the way Maynard planned out the music looked like advanced calculus. I would think with 5 years of time even with all the disruptions that they would do something more than a normal album. Tool is not really a mainstream band and they would do something more for their fans but their fans would have to figure it out.

Also why do you have to pay money to join the toolarmy, seems a little foolish.
i thought it would be cool to sign up as well, until i noticed in the section where you choose what 'package' you want that it says 'brainwashing' at the bottom.
humor? maybe. insight? maybe. either way, i'm not paying oodles of cash for a fucking hat and a sticker. i buy their cds and go to their shows, and that's enough money for them from me.

endorphins

02-19-2004, 04:35 PM

maybe Tool didn't write the song in keys......
maybe it was written in modes

myownidentity

02-21-2004, 01:09 AM

Ok, well i didn't read the whole forum cause i thought the first post was already pretty dumb. Forget about it! Are you all gone mad. Its an album not a bible. Unlike the bible I enjoy this album over and over again. If there was an 'alternative track order' who could give a rats ass really. It isn't going to make me any smarter or better person if i was to listen the album in another order. I guess if your pathetic enough you would try.

MORNING_GLORY

03-10-2004, 07:40 AM

Chris_Brightwell

03-10-2004, 02:48 PM

Ok, I'm tired of this shit. There is an alternate track order, just accept it, and LET IT GO. [...]
Of course there is.

There are exactly 6,227,020,800 possible track orders for Lateralus. What's your point?

They chose a specific one for specific reasons, and any deviance from that is, clearly, not what the artist intended for you to hear, despite whatever crazy justification you (or anyone else) can cook up for your pick of the 6,227,020,799 others.

And, yes, there really are 6,227,020,800 possible track orders, assuming you don't want to repeat any one track and you want to play every track one time. If you throw out those assumptions, there's an infinite number of possible track orders.

RRed

03-10-2004, 05:58 PM

Ok, I'm tired of this shit. There is an alternate track order, just accept it, and LET IT GO. You may not like the way it sounds or the fact that Tool didn't just spell it out for you, but its there. I can show you how the alt track order was "discovered" and even show you a few undeniable hints as to its existance.

And how can you (McRoggles) tell us how Tool or any other band thinks? You can't, so that last post is completely irrelevant. And the shuffle button has nothing to do with this; this is a very specific order. Although, you did make one good point, "No artist ever makes an alternate track list," which makes me believe even more that Tool is very capable of doing something to that effect.

Most of you are completely missing the point of the alt track order, because you're too stubborn to try something new, or change the way you think about Lateralus. Well wake up fellas, and smell the new sounds. Its not intended to make you smarter or a better person (although its possible on a subliminal level) but it does has a message, which I'm not even going to try to explain, because you need to find it on your own. But it does offer a whole new way to hear Lateralus. It gives Lateralus a nice movie-type quality to it. (PS if Tool ever makes "The Wall" type movie with Lateralus, I'll bet its in the alt order)

You are all "Finding beauty in dissonance" to quote schism.

If you want some reasons behind the alt order, ask me.

I do think there is an alternate track order but don't be so sure you've discovered it.... I did my own exploration and experimentation my self and I was, at one point, pretty sure I was on to something but in the long run I began to find more revelations that shed light on other things that I hadn't discovered before hand. It doesn't mean what I've found before is 'wrong' but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm diffinately 'right' either... Use your intrigue of Lateralus as your own tool of exploration.... and leave it at that.. share your thoughts but don't proclaim that you, out of the thousands and thousands of Tool fans, have found some kind of Holy Grail... theres diffinately folly in that, folly of the ego....

RRed

MORNING_GLORY

03-11-2004, 03:02 AM

The difference, Chris, between this order and the other 6,227,020,800 you mentioned is that this one is intended. I'm sorry if I came off as trying to say "I found the answers" because I know I haven't, this is only one possibility. I just get mad sometimes when people won't consider it, because its opened up a lot of new doors for me, and I just want people to experiment with it too. But I've learned that I can't force it on people, I can't make people accept it, if its real. But oh well, just think about it.

Chris_Brightwell

03-11-2004, 06:18 AM

The difference, Chris, between this order and the other 6,227,020,800 you mentioned is that this one is intended. [...]
Where is your proof of this "official" alternate track listing?

darkt

03-12-2004, 08:39 PM

I just realized that you suck and I am....
.....Awesomely Awesome.

Chris_Brightwell

03-12-2004, 11:33 PM

I just realized that you suck and I am....
.....Awesomely Awesome.
Absol00t n00b.

corps d'allumen

03-13-2004, 11:34 AM

And how can you... tell us how Tool or any other band thinks? You can't...

...If you want some reasons behind the alt order, ask me.

corps d'allumen

03-13-2004, 11:38 AM

If you haven't noticed, This whole opinion section is about people telling other people what they think Tool thinks and means. "I am not innocent, you are not innocent, no one is innocent."

corps d'allumen

03-13-2004, 11:39 AM

Where is your proof of this "official" alternate track listing?
He's the proof, duh! They gave him the offical "Tool" badge...

corps d'allumen

03-13-2004, 11:50 AM

I do think there is an alternate track order but don't be so sure you've discovered it.... I did my own exploration and experimentation my self and I was, at one point, pretty sure I was on to something but in the long run I began to find more revelations that shed light on other things that I hadn't discovered before hand. It doesn't mean what I've found before is 'wrong' but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm diffinately 'right' either... Use your intrigue of Lateralus as your own tool of exploration.... and leave it at that.. share your thoughts but don't proclaim that you, out of the thousands and thousands of Tool fans, have found some kind of Holy Grail... theres diffinately folly in that, folly of the ego....

RRed
No, we are obviously not looking for the holy grail. I often wonder why people post stuff like this? Does it matter to you if the references are put on the album on purpose or if it is merely a series of coincidential patterns? I don't believe anyone posting in here is searching for any grail or the so called meaning of life?! Basicly we are just following what to us seem like interesting and fascinating clues to learn and expand our knowledge. If you do not wish to participate, then don't. No one is forcing you, really... and im sure we won't miss you. Take care, have fun.. bye!I think people are looking for the 'holy grail.' I think if Tool came out tommorow and said "this is the meaning of life" then two-thirds of the jackasses here would say "I knew it!! I told you!!" when really they didn't know shit, just copying each others "interesting and fascinating clues to learn and expand our knowledge." pretending to know something important. Want to know what their big secret is? How to get a bunch of monkeys to treat them like gods and drool on their dollars as they fork 'em over and make them rich. You go back and take a good, objective look at this forum and then try to say again that noone is looking for something. Why the FUCK! would anyone want to know, for the fun of knowing, what elements the letters in a word make? Secretly, you're all waiting for someone to 'figure it out' thinking you can smear it on your balls and turn into a god, like your idols. You want something to learn and expand your knowledge? Get a fucking clue.

and im sure we won't miss you. Take care, have fun.. bye

Chris_Brightwell

03-13-2004, 12:11 PM

He's the proof, duh! They gave him the offical "Tool" badge...
He probably just bought if off of eBay.

If so, then it's probably just a fake.

MORNING_GLORY

03-13-2004, 01:06 PM

Ya know, a lot of you are dicks. Half of you sit around and wait for someone to post something that you can argue with, even certain moderators. Its sad really. But i'll use immunity pass that everyone else uses. "Its my opinion that Tool made an alternate track order" Ok now everyone that doesn't have anything constructive to say can find another thread, and suck my balls.

1256

03-13-2004, 04:55 PM

Chris_Brightwell

03-13-2004, 08:54 PM

Ya know, a lot of you are dicks. Half of you sit around and wait for someone to post something that you can argue with, even certain moderators. Its sad really.
Go ahead. Say it. "Chris Brightwell."

I'm not going to ban you for not liking me.

But i'll use immunity pass that everyone else uses. "Its my opinion that Tool made an alternate track order" [...]
And your basis is ... ?

Why would Tool make some ultra-awesome secret track order and not use it as opposed to the, umm, chosen track order?

Oh shit ... there I go again.

corps d'allumen

03-13-2004, 11:01 PM

As for waiting for an argument, for myself, I don't agree with you. Personally, I like to "keep it real" when people get real far out, as others have done for me. I hate to see people dilute themselves with all this 'secretive' crap of hidden messages, tracklists, and various other patterns. Everything has a pattern if you look for it, so what's the point of obsessing over one of them that you've found? I guess sarcasm is an aquired taste, but learn to take a joke man.

As for an 'immunity' pass, I think it's more like a stupidity pass. Personally I don't use that copout, that's what it is; It's for people who can't defend or explain themselves properly or thoroughly. And honestly, if you (informal) can't differentiate between fact and opinion without someone telling you "hey! this is what I think," then there is a greater underlying problem. EVERYTHING here is an opinion, some better than others, some closer to the truth than others. But the real question is "does it really matter?"
If your tracklist makes an emotional impact on you about YOU, then go for it. But don't fool yourself into beLIEving that Tool intended it, or worse, telling others that Tool intended it, like you know a cold, hard fact. And worse than that, when someone calls you out on it, surely don't cop out and backtrack by saying "it's my opinion."

Even if they did make an alternate track listing, it would only be relevant to the people that take the words and the music to heart; those that a new order would make a difference on how they explore themselves, not just how they explore the music. I'm sure you and others will have something to say about that one... and that's fine. But if everyone focused more on exploring themselves with the music rather than exploring the music with themselves, there would be a lot less posting here.

corps d'allumen

03-13-2004, 11:02 PM

about the alternate track list

here's an example of another meanigless obsession with numbers: there is a website i found about how the number nine is sacred in the bible, and gave a great many examples of how so many numbers there are divisible by nine. i guess the webmaster forgot that one out of every nine numbers is divisible by nine. once you look at the odds, which are very good for this happening by accident, most of these theories fall apart. like yours.

the pattern you found is sooo fuzzy it could have come from nowhere else but a florida voting office. its not even an equation.
A pattern of nine:
9x1=9----->9+0=9
9x2=18----->1+8=9
9x3=27----->2+7=9
9x4=36----->3+6=9
9x5=45----->4+5=9
9x6=54----->5+4=9
9x7=63----->6+3=9
9x8=72----->7+2=9
9x9=81----->8+1=9
9x10=90----->9+0=9
9x11=99----->9+9=18--->1+8=9
9x12=108----->1+0+8=9
9x13=117----->1+1+7=9
So on and so forth...

neochrist

03-14-2004, 01:47 AM

Go ahead. Say it. "Chris Brightwell."

I'm not going to ban you for not liking me.

And your basis is ... ?

Why would Tool make some ultra-awesome secret track order and not use it as opposed to the, umm, chosen track order?

Oh shit ... there I go again.

I'm proud of you chris, you didnt go grammar nazi on anybody.

xStainDx

03-15-2004, 08:25 PM

I'm not sure if anyone has read this site:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/question/insight7.html

but it may just help out :)

corps d'allumen

03-17-2004, 12:43 AM

yesterday, I listened this alternative tracklisting (6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10) and I don`t hear the connection. Because I don`t give up easy I started reading the lyrics, I found out that this alternative tracklisting doesn`t tell a story, the official tracklisting does!!! I will post this story in a while......(end of the week I hope, If I have enough time).
Something else on this alternative tracklist: A Parabol is a different form as a Spiral so why start a spiral with a parabol?
As to be fair and support this track list a little, I know the story the alt. list tells. What? How? Why? Because it is my own story. All these songs have a specific meaning to my life; the only real meaning these songs have is what is applied by the listener. Therefore it's dismissive to say that it doesn't tell a story, just because it doesn't tell one to you. However, I don't believe it's proper to just change someone's work as you see fit, so I don't buy the idea of an alt. tracklist.

As for you and the "starting w/ a parabol," you must be thinking of the parabola.
PARABOL is not a real word. It sounds like 'parable' (oh my!!! a clue.), and it's also parabola minus the a. Big meaning man, big meaning... lol.

corps d'allumen

03-17-2004, 07:09 AM

Is there a chance Tool gives us hints during there live shows??? Always starting with the Grudge and ending with Lateralus (I`ve seen 4 shows since Lateralus release...

Maybe, maybe, maybe.......

Aah well, I`m going back listening Lateralus.
On a very broad and general level, I think the song 'The Grudge' is about people stuck in the Ænima phase vs. people that 'get it' and move on. That album was, in my opinion, engineered to make you overwhelm yourself trying to understanding vagueness, if understanding vagueness is even possible, until something gives. It was designed to have people give themselves an ænima. If you stay too long trying to 'figure out' that stage, you will eventually wither and die. You had five years to figure it out and move on, to be ready and prepared for the next album.

Specifically to me, I can relate this to myself and old friends of the LSD days of long ago. We caught wind of the mystery concealed, did all the 'research,' if you want to call it that, and essentially fried ourselves. All the confusion ceased, for me, when I stopped looking at it like it was an external mystery; that album was specifically about my life. It's about the life of whoever's listening to it. So, conceptually, 'The Grudge' is the one who figured it out telling the others to let go of all the extraneous , the weight of this external mystery, and to forgive their 'scarlett lettermen,' and be forgiven for arguements over who was 'right' about that mystery which has no true meaning outside of the individual.

The only show of the Lateralus tour I saw started with 'Sober,' and they played it in near absolute darkness. It was followed by 'The Grudge,' which totally broke the bleakness; the stage lit up with two big faces, merged together to make a big column-looking thing. What does it mean? I see 'Sober' talking about their previous message, and the darkness as a visualization of that message; there is no light in thinking like that. It reminds me of sitting in the blacklight, tripping balls, going crazy, overanalysing the music for the 'hidden meaning.' I finally found the light inside myself, and I wish I could say the same for my ex-colleages...

This would get real long if I spoke about why they always end with 'Lateralis.' To speak real quick on the use of 'is,' it relates to 'ima' vs. the 'ema' of ænima, does it not?

Machiavelli70

03-17-2004, 12:47 PM

My friend just asked me "Is it true if you play Lateralus in a certain order a demon is loosed?"

Unmorbid

03-17-2004, 12:58 PM

this goes along with the tree of life theory and the tarot theory.....all of wich i'm not too sure about...i can't remember it all but it goes deep into the thought that every song not goes into every point in the tree of life and each song has a corosponding reference to one of the major arcana in tarot cards...personnaly i don't think the band put that much thought into it....i think mabye it is a higher power at work there

corps d'allumen

03-18-2004, 09:56 PM

Mike Patton is a genius...

Can you feel it, see it, hear it today?
If you can't, then it doesn't matter anyway
You will never understand it cuz it happens too fast
And it feels so good, it's like walking on glass
It's so cool, it's so hip, it's alright
It's so groovy, it's outta sight
You can touch it, smell it, taste it so sweet
But it makes no difference cuz it knocks you off your feet
You want it all but you can't have it
It's cryin', bleedin', lying on the floor
So you lay down on it and you do it some more
You've got to share it, so you dare it
Then you bare it and you tear it
You want it all but you can't have it
It's in your face but you can't grab it
It's alive, afraid, a lie, a sin
It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win
It's dark, it's moist, it's a bitter pain
It's sad it happened and it's a shame
You want it all but you can't have it
It's in your face but you can't grab it
"What is it?"
It's it
"What is it?..."

africanherbsman

03-20-2004, 06:10 PM

.TP

03-20-2004, 06:50 PM

My friend just asked me "Is it true if you play Lateralus in a certain order a demon is loosed?"

believe me, is true.

corps d'allumen

03-21-2004, 02:26 AM

What does the lyrics to Epic-Fatih No More have to with the thread?
Enlighten me
You'll have to enlighten yourself, but, I'll give you a clue: "what is it?" is the question everyone has in their minds...

aintsofar

04-10-2004, 03:00 PM

you guys are fools, i never thought people that were into to Tool could be such fools

the hell is wrong with being a fool? to be uninformed and have divine forces watching out for me, seems a lot better than to be half-informed and act like an asshole about it.

Parabol Parabola is in E, so is Schism, which parabola ends in guitar in e and schism begins with guitar in e, then schism ends and goes directly into drums then bass for Ticks and Leeches, all the while adam jones drops to D and then begins playing, then you have mantra, adam tunes the third string to E for Lateralus, so your looking from the top down at D,A,E, then you have Faaip and the tuning of the third string is back to D so it's D,A,D, like it was in Ticks, then the tuning remains the same for The Grudge, Triad, Eon Blue, then the drums start Reflection which gives adam time to tune back to D,A,E, which he rides through reflection, the patient, and dispostion

okay, schism is in D, fucknut. the notes for the first chord are d, f, b-flat. Dm6, or an inverted Bb-major chord. the third string is normally a g-string. maybe you mean the fourth string.

the next bit of lyrics are too deep for the most of you to understand having to do with separating the body from the mind

meaning you don't know? or you have an idea of what it represents, but can't communicate it to the rest of us? then maybe we could do without your bullshit boasts about having all the answers, they're not helping us out any.

-as you grow, you begin to realize that not everything is in black and white or exactly as it seems.

so why did he pick the colours red and yellow? just random choices i guess?

we'll also discuss the musical aspect of things, so that you morons who refuse to believe the alternate track order may be slightly enlightened.

i don't even feel the slightest bit more enlightened.

1256

04-13-2004, 05:10 PM

ok so this is going kind of back into the thread, but about the NBC sync
this answer is not going to satisfy all the "omg secret message" people (such as myself) or the "it's just a coincidence" people either, but check it out anyway:

so let's say the Aenima-NBC sync i heard about was a coincidence
now one of the band members hears about the sync. they make their next album sync after hearing about the first sync. thus justin wears the costume. if i was in the band, and one of my discs synched, i would kind of want to make something out of it. its pretty cool, especially if the first time it was an accident and you got the sync for doing absolutely no extra work

by the way for the REAL hidden meanings of lateralus check out my favorite 5-page thread "new meaning to the world La->.....blah blah whatever. none of that's a coincidence.

Machiavelli70

04-14-2004, 02:12 PM

Well, while we're bitching about it, I -can- tell you that Tool did not intend for you all to sling shit back and forth about this. So if someone's being closed-minded, ignore that, and if you're the one being closed-minded, open up (or eat shit and die :) )

Lateralus has plenty of possible track orders. If one means more to you than another, listen to it that way. Did you buy Lateralus as a piece of music to listen to or to have Tool dictate it to you in lecture format? Listen to it with the CD in upside down if that creams your twinky.

symbiosis

04-15-2004, 10:36 PM

i wonder if this is going to be like the "synch" with Pink Floyd and the Wizard of Oz... with lots of pages and info on how to synch, and what lyrics go witht he movie, that would be nice to read, not see. I never saw Pi, but I have to now. am a tool.

Atratus

04-25-2004, 08:11 AM

Guys, there is no such thing as coincidence, but then i don't no how much of the coincidence Tool really intended.

But if you really want to understand Tool, why don't you try to do exactly what they did, as good as you can (and maybe you can find some help too).

Thank you Paraflux for you wonderful contribution. I'm not sure you intended this, because it's a long shot. But indeed, maybe i'm the one in the bubble.

Here's the interview:

MD: What were the first and last songs written for Lateralus?

Danny: "The Grudge" was first, "Triad" was last.

MD: That's almost in the album's running order.

Danny: Yes, it's funny, we hadn't even thought about the order of the
album until we got to the mastering lab. we wrote the song titles on
pieces of paper, shifted them around, and the final order came out
almost exactly in the order we had written them.

Now do as they do.

We want to take 13 pieces of paper, write the song titles on them, shift them around and come out "almost exactly" in the order the songs were written originally by Tool. I don't know that order.

So shift them around and keep in mind the album track order and the alternate track orders that schismgrudge2000 and Metratron's Cube posted here. See if any spirals emerge by your shifting them around.

Another hint may be that grudge could be on either one or ten.

Update: i wrote down 13 on faaip de oiad and 12 on triad. I realize now that i perhaps i will want to try this with 11 tracks also, merging disposition and reflection into triad. But perhaps that will not be necessary, or expedient.

I've arranged the 13 pieces in the order on the album, shifted 6 and 7, exchanging their positions. Then, finding parabol and parabola out of their usual order, i exchanged 6 with 5, making the order: 6, 7, 5.

Come to think of it, parabol after parabola doesn't sound bad at all, aeither!

tuniabdoh

04-26-2004, 12:55 AM

Machiavelli70

04-26-2004, 05:14 AM

Well, yeah, tunia. Most poeple write their songs so that they have a point.

There is not <i>perscribed</i> "secret order", as far as I'm concerned to care. Against that -- Parabol/Parabola and Disp/Ref/Triad song orders. Another thing I don't know if you all noticed is the continuity of the "turning on" sound at the beginning of the album and the shutting off at the end. I don't think there's a secret order unless you invent one yourself.

And if you do, that's fine. But don't go around telling everyone that you solved some amazing Tool puzzle, because all you did was take a tesselation and rearrange the pieces.

crow011

04-26-2004, 09:53 PM

there is no alternative track listing . . .

tuniabdoh

04-27-2004, 04:12 PM

Chris said that there were 6,000,000 and he's a boyscout, so I'll take his word on it. (*)

Also: I just read my other post and realised that it didn't make any sense.

Machiavelli70

04-28-2004, 05:24 AM

Whilst dying within my maniacal laughter: Did TheAbstraction really write that?

Atratus

04-28-2004, 07:13 AM

The song tracks on Lateralus all seem to have a message or emotion that they're trying to convey. So it would make sense that no matter how you arranged it would tell a story. I listened to the alternate track order. It sounded pretty good. Good enough to be intentional, but not good enough to replace old Lateralus. If you like it your way better then I suppose that's all that matters but it seems odd to start with something other than T&L or The Grudge.

1. The Grudge = forgiveness
3. The Patient = patience
5. Schism = communication
6. Parabol = realisation of unimportance of the body
7. Parabola = acceptance
8. Ticks & Leeches = digust for things that hold you back
9. Lateralis = lateral thinking, exploration
10. Disposition = peace
11. Reflection = unity
12. Triad = power, freedom

Would the story make more sense if T&L is track 1 and The Grudge track 2 or the other way around?

The would simply tell different stories right? Like if The Grudge is first and T&L is second would mean a will to forgive first, and then finding it's not that easy. Or whatever.

Adam said in the interview The Grudge came first, so the story is different. He also said that they shifted the songs around before deciding on the track order.

If there's no more to it than that, fine. What do i know? Random order, random meaning, random intent, if any. In that case i say Tool sure is whimsical and that we are doing a great job exploring the many other possibilites. Credits to Schismgrudge, and unfortunately not so many others. Oh and to tool of course.

Tuniabdoh, those are good interpretations, i gotta hand it to you. They might become useful keywords for building a quick story out of while fitting all the pieces together.

So little work for such a Great Work! I don't think Tool is so whimsical as us here. I know they are not.

Machiavelli70

04-28-2004, 02:33 PM

To kill the thread: Like I said
Lateralus is an unbiased album, in my opinion, and whatever order you play them in is the "correct" one--the message is whatever you get out of it, not what they put into it. Check the forum entrance; it's not about "what it means" but "what it means to me."

MORNING_GLORY

04-29-2004, 02:39 PM

Not many people agree that there is a specific alternative track order, but personally I think there is one. There is too many coincidences for me to not to think its intended. I don't know why they did it or what its purpose is (assuming its real/intended) but for me Lateralus just flows better that way. I like the way it sounds with Parabol as the leading track. I like the way many of the songs flow into each other this way, eg. T&L into Mantra is kinda nice. I also like to think of Mantra as a sort of cleansing song before Lateralus. The only part I find a bit choppy is The Grudge into Triad. I also like Disposition as the last song, it just seems fitting there.

But despite whether or not I like it, I still think its intentional.

Machiavelli70

04-30-2004, 05:12 AM

Disp/Refl/Triad remain as a unit if you're going to alter the track order. If you don't think there are coincidences, then their all being linked together by segues is not a coincidence, and they should be kept contiguous.

tuniabdoh

05-01-2004, 07:26 PM

I realised what I meant before:

Each of the songs seems to represent a somewhat simple but abstract concept. If the album had three songs, one about how shitty life is, one about how good life is, and one about seeing the truth, it would make sense in different order for different people.

Guy who hates life:
1. song about how good life is
2. song about seeing the truth
3. song about how shitty life is

Guy who enjoys life:
1. song about how shitty life is
2. song about seeing the truth
3. song about how good life is

Guy who denies the existence of reality and spends all of his time high on LSD talking with aliens:
1. song about how good life is
2. song about how shitty life is
3. song about seeing the truth

MORNING_GLORY

05-02-2004, 05:29 AM

That last guy rocks

Atratus

05-06-2004, 03:17 AM

I realised what I meant before:
Each of the songs seems to represent a somewhat simple but abstract concept.

I've thought about what you said...

Given only three different songs/concepts, there's 3 different stories.

Given (only) 13 different songs/concepts => mucho different stories.

What if Tool didn't want to tell 3.000.000 stories, nor just one.

There might be 3000000 different track orders and 3000000 different interviews of Adam Jones telling us how they made 30000000 track orders.

Why would it be so impossible for Tool to intend Two or three track orders? Just because there's so many? Because idea of hidden track order is really just distracting and pointless?

For all i know, they did the same stuff we do right here just to fool around. The difference is that they would Exclaim "HERE'S A SECRET TRACK ORDER" and another would say "NONSENSE THERE'S MILLIONS OF 'SECRET' TRACK ORDERS" in good jest. Here we accuse nonsense, because... well... because we're ignorant assholes looking for a vulnerable squirt to feed our egos on.

Machiavelli, check the forum entrance. This forum is about what it means to me AS WELL AS "what it Means". Nowhere does it say one should exclude the other. And i don't care if you get this thread is killed because it's futile to look for The Meaning right now, but i don't see how you can make that judgement call either unless you know something about Tool that you haven't told us yet.

Machiavelli70

05-06-2004, 03:09 PM

Machiavelli, check the forum entrance. This forum is about what it means to me AS WELL AS "what it Means". Nowhere does it say one should exclude the other. And i don't care if you get this thread is killed because it's futile to look for The Meaning right now, but i don't see how you can make that judgement call either unless you know something about Tool that you haven't told us yet.
Touché, friend. Well played.

VashTheStampede

05-26-2004, 08:06 PM

the total ignorance in this post is pretty suprising in a place that is so full of intelligence and free thinkers.

first i never attacked anyone who didnt want to try it, i simply stated you shouldnt judge something you havent seen - which you still havent which makes your comments all the more ignorant. if you dont want to try it fine - but dont speak then because you sound like a whinny child.

second - i do think its a coincandence - but you know what - WHO CARES? its still is quite awesome to watch - but someone as small minded as would post an attack at people that are discussing something that brings them enjoyment wouldnt understand that.

if you ever pull your head out of your ass long enough to try it out you may actually see what we mean - until then, this is what you sound like WAAA WAAA WAAAA

peace and be blessed...ahhh, a-fucking-men. the guy that bashes other ppls ideas without trying them does not need to be here, nobody needs his bullshit and bringing people down. leave and never come back crow!