Recording gear [Archive] - The Tool Page: Opinion

deviatedwolf625

03-16-2004, 09:08 PM

alright, here's the low down:

I'm seriously thinking of setting up a recording studio capeable of recording/producing demos for bands. And in order to do this, I need a few things:

A recording mixer, preferably USB that interfaces with
A form of software (pro tools was what I was thinking, but I'm open to suggestions)
Some soundproofing
Microphones (Drum, instrument)
Cords, jacks, ect.

I have the cords and jack thing handled, but mostly I'm worried aobut the recording mixer/software. Also, drum/instrument mic suggestions are appreciated!

Does anyone have any to suggest?

elevate

03-17-2004, 08:14 AM

A recording mixer, preferably USB that interfaces with
No. You either want an analog mixer or a digital mixer. USB sucks for multi-channel audio.

What's your budget like? How many inputs are you going to need? Do you already have a capable sound card? Do you have monitors?

I personally wouldn't buy a Pro Tools setup - I don't particularly care for the software and unless you plan on spending $10,000+ or plan on taking your projects to a big studio that has Pro Tools, it offers no real benefits.

SpentAndSighing

03-17-2004, 08:23 AM

I personally wouldn't buy a Pro Tools setup - I don't particularly care for the software and unless you plan on spending $10,000+ or plan on taking your projects to a big studio that has Pro Tools, it offers no real benefits.

I agree whole-heartedly. There are several kinds of multitrack software that you can easily get your hands on through Musician's Friend or some other music catalog. Hell, I pirated Cool Edit Pro from Kazaa and it works great. The only problem you might have with pirating software is that you can't get the extra plug-ins. If you're going to try this method, just make sure you have a really decent computer. The higher the processing speed, the better.

I can't help you with monitors...I know there are interfaces you can install on the computer to facilitate speakers, but I just do my mixing through headphones.

As for mixers, go digital. Especially if you can find one with a reasonable price that comes with a CD burner. I have yet to see one that you can't connect to a PC to mix tracks.

Hope that helps!

deviatedwolf625

03-17-2004, 07:27 PM

Matteran

03-17-2004, 10:45 PM

you want the SM57 for instruments...

it's actually a good idea... just go to a lot of the local concerts, and just offer to help them get demos out for a lot cheaper...

You'll have to listen to a bunch of shitty punk bands all the time, and it'll be a money pit at first, but it'll give you a lot of experience, and i know that you want to do some studio stuff for a living.

I also suggest the MXL V67G... great mic for cheap. I have one, and it's awesome for area miking a drum set... like totally fucking amazing.

Hurter Vileslay

03-18-2004, 01:12 AM

elevate

03-18-2004, 08:45 AM

Alright, then possibly the Behringer mixing console ... seen http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040317193424024021049233701669/g=rec/s=mixers/search/detail/base_pid/631225/ Here.

Alright, my budget is about 1500$ at the most, to start this thing up. This includes BUYING the software...
I think you need to reevaluate a bit here. $1,500 to get going, and you want to drop a grand on a mixer? That leaves $500 for software, soundcard, monitors, mics, etc.... Not gonna happen.

How many inputs do you plan on needing at once? I would recommend looking on ebay for mixers, and I'd also recommend Soundcraft - IMO, the pres sound better than Mackie pres. Given your budget, you're pretty much going to have to get an analog mixer, so just make sure it's got the sends and/or busses you want. Ideally, each channel would have its own send so you can track each channel.

As for mics, I agree with Matteran - the 57 is the general purpose/instrument mic. I'll also second his recommendation for the MXL V67G. Hell, I'd even say skip the SM57 and get a stereo pair of MXL 603s. Studio Projects is another manufacturer of cheap high quality mics, so you may want to check them out.

For soundcard, it again depends on how many channels you plan on tracking at once. Eight is pretty damn good, so, if that's what you want to do, I'd say there are two options: M-Audio Delta 1010 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040318082321066233212203850771/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/701340/) and M-Audio Delta 1010LT (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040318082321066233212203850771/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/701376/).

Monitors....you must have monitors if you're going to be doing this for real. IMO, these are often overlooked and some people seem to think they can just use some home stereo speakers or headphones. It just isn't the same. AFAIK, the cheapest monitors that don't just suck outright are Behringer Truths (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040318082321066233212203850771/g=rec/s=headphones/search/detail/base_pid/600590/) and M-Audio Studiophile BX5s (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040318082321066233212203850771/g=rec/s=headphones/search/detail/base_pid/603277/). If you can find a set of Yorkville monitors within your budget, jump on that. Based on everything I've read, they're the best monitors for the money. I also happen to own a pair and can't find a single negative thing to say about them. Problem is that they're hard to find. I got mine new off ebay, so you may want to check there. I'd discourage you from buying used monitors (or mics for that matter).

A few other things you may not have thought of - mic stands; you're gonna need at least a few of them. Boom stands are always more useful than straight stands. And if you ever buy a kick mic, toss a real short boom stand in your shopping cart too. Headphone amp - not absolutely critical, but if you have guys tracking in another room, they're going to need to hear what's going on...of course, you're going to need some headphones for this as well. As long as they're closed ear, they'll probably be fine - quality isn't much of an issue here. Also, if you do have guys tracking in another room, you'll probably need a control room mic so you can talk to them. Any piece of shit mic will work for this.

Ok, enough for now. Give us some more details on what you want to be able to accomplish.

deviatedwolf625

03-18-2004, 11:15 AM

Alright, well, re-evaluating, the 1500$ is a bit low, but I can't earn much more than that. Possibly 2000$, so let's throw that extra 500$ in the pot.

An analog mixer will work fine as long as it has 8 input/sends, for mics and direct line ins.

Moniters, I must admit, I didn't think of, but where would I use them? In the jam room itself?

Right now this enterprise is starting with one room, and if it picks up enough, I'll convert another one. If it continues picking up, I dunno what I'll do. Be really happy probably :)

As for what I want to accomplish, I'm looking to start a demoing business that has better prices than everyone else, and better quality demos. I want to get good recording, I don't need it at quite recording studio quality, but above shitty demo quality.

Alright, I'll buy the moniters/mics new, but what about the mixer?

And control room mic shouldn't be a problem, I'll be able to find a mic to do that with.

Looking at this at school, and on the soundcards, what's the difference between those two (rackmount and PCI versions) besides 220$?

And can you give me a link to those Yorkville moniters?

Mic stands, another thing I didn't anticipate, I'll need what ... 5 boom stands?

Headphones aren't an issue, but what do you mean by a headphone amplifier? If I buy a mixer, does it have one of those built in? Because the headphones are either going to go into that, or into the computer.

And busses on a mixer? I know the term, what exactly does it mean?

I do need to put a lot of thought into the hardware aspect, and not just the logistical details (which i have worked out now).

Does that answer all your questions in a completely illogical helter-skelter fashion?

Matteran

03-18-2004, 11:40 AM

just a quick question about the PCI soundcard, it has two XLR inputs, so does that mean that I'll be able to plug my mixer, with has two XLR outputs for stereo, directly into those plugs, and get stereo? cause that's the only thing i'd like right now...

And a card like that would produce a lot less noise, and have better sound quality than my Sound Blaster Audigy 2ZS... right?

elevate

03-18-2004, 11:50 AM

Moniters, I must admit, I didn't think of, but where would I use them? In the jam room itself?
You use the monitors wherever it is that you'll be mixing and tweaking. Generally speaking, this isn't the same room where people would be playing, but you can make do with what you've got. You want your mixing environment to be as quiet and neutral-sounding as possible.
Alright, I'll buy the moniters/mics new, but what about the mixer?
IMO, buying a used mixer is a pretty safe bet, but use your own discretion here. I got my Soundcraft mixer used and haven't had a problem at all.
Looking at this at school, and on the soundcards, what's the difference between those two (rackmount and PCI versions) besides 220$?
I'm gonna assume you're talking about the 1010 and 1010LT. Both have PCI cards, but the 1010 has a rackmount to house all the connections. The 1010 also has better converters, which means better signal/noise ratio, and I also believe it has balanced connectors whereas the LT doesn't. The LT also has two mic preamps, which are probably not as good as a Soundcraft or Mackie pre, but they're probably usable if you find you have a need for two more channels. I guess I'd suggest you save a little money here and go with the 1010LT and then when you feel like upgrading, do a real upgrade and get something like an RME Hammerfall. I dunno...think about it. You may want to spring for the extra quality the 1010 provides. Go hunt down some reviews of both and see what other people think about them.
And can you give me a link to those Yorkville moniters?
Sure....here ya go (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?cat=20&type=33). Mine are the YSM1i, which are non-powered. I'd recommend getting the YSM1p, which are the powered flavor.
Mic stands, another thing I didn't anticipate, I'll need what ... 5 boom stands?
You can buy these as you go. I'd say for starters, if you aren't going to have 5 mics, there's no sense in having 5 stands. So, for each mic you plan on using at one time, buy a stand. If you'd like some info on mic techniques, I've got some stuff that you may find helpful. Offhand though, I'd say at least two mics for drums (LD overhead and a kick mic) would be needed for a nice sound. Then something like an SM57 for cabinets (bass also gets run direct), and something mediocre for scratch vocals.
but what do you mean by a headphone amplifier?
I mean something like this (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040318082321066233212203850771/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/240107/). Your mixer will have a headphone output on it, but that's for you to use when mixing, if needed. The headphone amp is for whoever's playing.
And busses on a mixer? I know the term, what exactly does it mean?
A bus is a means of grouping channels and directing outputs. I guess it's really more useful in a live setting or in a traditional studio with lots of outboard gear. Seeing as how you're going to be doing most of the work on the computer, this isn't particularly important. Software will let you group and send stuff with greater ease and flexibility.

elevate

03-18-2004, 11:54 AM

just a quick question about the PCI soundcard, it has two XLR inputs, so does that mean that I'll be able to plug my mixer, with has two XLR outputs for stereo, directly into those plugs, and get stereo? cause that's the only thing i'd like right now...
I'm not sure. Those XLR inputs on the 1010LT have preamps on them and I don't know if they can be disabled or not. Shoot M-Audio an email.

And a card like that would produce a lot less noise, and have better sound quality than my Sound Blaster Audigy 2ZS... right?
Without question. Though, if you only need two inputs to go from your mixer, their Audiophile 2496 would make more sense - 2 inputs, 2 outputs, SPDIF i/o, and MIDI i/o.

deviatedwolf625

03-18-2004, 06:51 PM

Alright, those Yorkville moniters sound sweet, I'll look around for them.

And it turns out that there might be three/four of us in on this, it'll be interesting to see if we last through the summer with it.

And the mic pre's don't really matter as we'd be running all the cords and shit into a mixer, and then into the comp, so we'd be using the mixer's pre's.

Another question that pops to mind is soundproofing, and this is one that's easy. How much soundproofing do I need to make a 9'x13'6" room absolutely soundproof?

If we get 4 of us in on this, we'll have a bit more money, but who knows if it'll be 4 by the time this actually rolls around to near-completion.

Alright, now this is more of a how-to-run-it question, and this is due to ignorance, because I've never been in a studio.

Very stupidly, how does it work?

imtheism

03-19-2004, 12:25 AM

I've just ordered £3000* worth of recording gear, and this is what I'm getting:

Carillon AC-1 dedicated audio PC (P4 2.6GhZ, 512Mb RAM, 80Gb Seagate HD, Zalman cooler, ultra quiet PSU, other quiet components)-£899

Yamaha 01X digital mixer/audio interface/hardware control surface-£999

Cubase SL-£169 with PC

Reason-£199

2x AKG C1000S condenser mics (overheads/vocals)-£95 each
3xSM58 (instruments/vox)-£69 each
1x AKG D112 bass/bass drum mic-£110

Samson Resolv 80a speakers-£250

There are a few other bits & pieces as well

*not sure what that is in $
you're going to want an sm57 for instruments. 58 sucks for electric amplified recording. If you're doing like accoustic/big band stuff they're fine, but if you're trying to record amps you want a 57. Drop the 60 bux on one. It will be more than worth it.

elevate

03-19-2004, 07:59 AM

And the mic pre's don't really matter as we'd be running all the cords and shit into a mixer, and then into the comp, so we'd be using the mixer's pre's.
What was this in reference to?

Just a word about mic pres - the pres on mixers are what I guess you would call "general purpose", in that they don't do much more than amplify the signal as cleanly as possible. This is usually fine for most things, but for vocals (and occassionally other things) you want a pre that has a bit more to offer. This isn't to say that you can't get by with the pres on the mixer for vocals and then use some plugins to add some faux warmth, but a dope mic pre is always gonna beat a plugin.

Another question that pops to mind is soundproofing, and this is one that's easy. How much soundproofing do I need to make a 9'x13'6" room absolutely soundproof?
The laws of diminishing returns apply here, in that it's a monumental feat to make a room absolutely soundproof. Do you need to make it so nobody outside of this space can hear you?...or make it so you can't hear anybody outside while you're in the space?

Very stupidly, how does it work?
Do you mean the actual process of recording?...or what?

deviatedwolf625

03-19-2004, 05:55 PM

I need to make it soundproof enough to make the recordings sound good, and so that the noise outside of the space is 5db or less.

And yes, i mean how it all works, starting with a band going into the studio and ending with the produced album

elevate

03-19-2004, 11:17 PM

I need to make it soundproof enough to make the recordings sound good, and so that the noise outside of the space is 5db or less.
There's a ton of ways to go about this ranging from relatively simple to in-depth construction. I think if you've got road construction outside your house, then there probably isn't going to be a whole you can do, short of building a room inside a room (which is what most studios do). What you can do is create some sound absorption panels. Basically you create a large canvas stretcher that's also really deep. Cover one of the opening with some fabric, stuff the frame with some insulation (they make insulation that kinda specializes in absorbing sound), then cover it up with some more fabric. These should be mounted with a little space between them and the wall (dead space is your friend). You could make these pretty much floor to ceiling, and run them all along the walls, or just a few of them should help some.
And yes, i mean how it all works, starting with a band going into the studio and ending with the produced album
I guess you can do it however you see fit, but pretty much every time I've been to a studio, it goes down like this - everybody sets up to play. If you have multiple rooms (or at least 2), the drums are isolated from everything else. Everybody records, but you're really only interested in capturing drum tracks at this time. You're gonna record 1 track of everything else, and these are scratch tracks. You keep doing takes on the drums until everybody is satisfied with the performance. Once that's done, bass gets recorded - usually while listening to the recorded drums and the scratch tracks. For bass you usually want a track of the cabinet with a mic on it, and a direct as well. These two are then mixed. The bass scratch track can now be deleted, or just muted. Now, the guitars - same as bass, except no direct. Finally vocals. Once that's done, it's time to mix and now, if at all possible, would be a good time to tell the band to go home so you can mix alone for a while. At the very least to get the mix to at least a certain point before consulting the band. You may not be able to always do this, so you'll learn to suffer through the constant "backseat driver" recommendations. Once you've got it mixed the way you like, dump it to a stereo file and send it off to be mastered or you could try running it through a mastering compressor plugin. This is by no means a substitution for mastering, but it will probably be good enough for demo purposes.

That's kinda the quick rundown. I could go into a bit more detail about other shit if you need.

deviatedwolf625

03-20-2004, 11:19 AM

Alright, well I knew more than I expected.

Here elevate, can you email me a picture of what you're talking about with the soundproofing? my email is [email protected]. I can't quite see it just reading it.

And how does the whole process of mixing with a band work? I mean, I'm not just going to go through and arbitrarily throw on effects and all that shit am I?