The grudge is your resistence to religion.

[Pinenut]

I believe the meaning of this song and every song on the Lateralus album relates to personal spiritual enlightment. This has been my favorite CD for almost three years now, and it seems that in the last two months I've finally gotten it all. The grudge is a beautiful song about rediscovering religion. I've found Christianity to be my religion in the last two months, although I don't believe the songs on Lateralus are necessarily about Christianity. They are however all 100% about rediscovering personal knowledge of a higher power.

I figured Saturn represented wisdom or knowledge or something, but the other day when I looked it up in my encyclopedia, among other things it said that when Saturn would come around, it would usher in a period of enlightenment among the people. Saturn's coming around would be the beginning of a period of prosperity among the people. Also, the slaves and slave owners would have a feast together to symbolize that there were no social divisions when Saturn was present.

"Saturn comes back around to show you everything, and lets you choose what you will or will not see and then drags you down like a stone or lifts you up and spits you out like a child: light and innocent"

In our lives, every time somebody tries to get you to come back to church and quit denying religion, that is Saturn coming back around to show you everything. They will let you choose what you will or will not see, but if you choose to hang on to them, you will be spit out like a child, light and innocent. If you choose not to hang on, you'll be humbled again.

"Justify denials and grip 'em to a lonesome end." That is so true. Keep justifing denials and you will just end up gripping them to a lonesome end. However if you just choose to "let this go", Saturn will show you everything and you'll immediately be made light and innocent and feel the best you have ever felt in your life.

"Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen." I believe this line is talking about how sometimes people are very resistant to forgive the people that are trying to help them out by offering a hand to help them rediscover God. It seems that the people trying to get you to come back to religion are your scarlet lettermen because they are pointing out to you that you have done wrong. When they tell you that you are committing a sin by denying God, they become your scarlet letterman. They aren't trying to hurt you, they are just trying to help. Forgive your scarlet lettermen and you'll see that they are "Ignorant to the damage done". You will see that they will just welcome you with open arms, and that all the scarlet letter wearing was just a last ditch attempt to help you out of your self-indulgent pititul hole (whoops, I slipped into Reflections there).

It does so happen that sometimes when the people who have the biggest grudges against religion have an event occur or just decide to let go and rejoin, these people are the ones who end up being the most fanatical of all. They have been there and back and therefore they realize how good there is. They realize that God's love is bright and endless far better than someone who has had it all along.

"Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor, let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold."

People with the heaviest leaden grudges, when they allow the waters to touch them, there grudges will turn to gold and be far more brilliant of a gem to them than somebody who never developed the anchor to begin with.

Basically consider this post here to be Saturn coming back around to show you everything. It is now your turn to decide what you will or will not see. However if you choose to quit justifying denials, and allow the waters to touch your leaden and cold anchor, the water will turn it to gold. If you decide to not hang on this time, you'll just be humbled again. Hopefully Saturn will someday come back around again and give you another chance. I would really recommend hanging onto it now though, because you never know when it is too late.


Choose to let this go.


I don't feel like editing that to make it flow better, but it should be clear enough that you should get the message

[Shitonme]

Wow pinenut, I really love this post. Partially because I've been thinking along the same lines with your Saturn theory. Its almost like waiting for Godot, yet replace Godot with Saturn. I'd have to say I'm currently in no religion, but I have not ruled any out. Its only because it was pushed on me so much when I was young that I pushed away, I simply want to step back and asses things for myself. Maybe one day I'll find something to believe in. I've been "born again" twice, and both times I've fallen away from it.. one day I'll recite the lines accepting some higher power into my heart, but I want it to mean more.

-tim

[High Voltage]

Your awful interpretation has ruined the song for me.

[corps d'allumen]

Your awful interpretation has ruined the song for me.
I agree. You have to read his other posts... He can't seem to understand that God does not equal religion, or vice-versa; personal spiritual enlightenment shouldn't have to involve a religion. "[It's] like self-help books. If you need a book, it's not self help. It's just HELP!" (George Carlin) I tried to get him to defend his religion view through debate:
(You really have to read his original post, but it's really long, longer than some of my longest, which can be really long.)

God is not a man. God is not waiting around for us to discover 'him.' God does not love us; God is just there. Quite a possibility that this song is about God, but I don't think it would be about the same thing a billion other people think God is; God is not the 'man' on high, making invisible steps like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, waiting for you to have 'faith.'

"Once the words have reached your heart, they will bring back for hope in this life." I think something in your heart that could bring back hope and the faith in humanity is LOVE. How could you possibly begin to feel the light that is God, and therefore everything else as well, without love? That's what the Merkaba teaches, love. That's what Jesus taught, that is until people killed him... That's what the christ-consciousness is, the 46&2, the open third eye, true enlightenment, whatever you want to call it.

The majority of the billions you talk about that with their 'secret' are nothing but Xtian hypocrites who worship, without understanding, what Jesus taught, at least what they're told that he taught, while 'secretly' believing that they are 'right' and that everyone else is damned to hell, unless they convert... Faith in God and faith in religion are two different things.

You would have to be Xtian in some form to quote "The Patient" to insinuate that you are somehow saving us with your God talk. I appreciate your insights, and I'm happy for you that you've found something that helps you repair your own damage, but leave the martyrdom to the martyrs. I can't appreciate the overtly religious tones. I believe in God truly, but not like that. I ditched religion to understand God.
Reply:

Thanks for the thoughts but: "Crucify your ego before its far too late. I pray the light lifts you out, before you pine away. Crucify your ego before its far too late to leave behind your place so negative and blind and cynical. You will come to find that we are all one mind, capable of all thats imaginable and all conceivable. Just let the light touch you, let the words spill through, let them pass right through, bringing out your hope and reason...before you pine away."


"Science fails to recogzine the single most potent element of human existence, its letting the reigns go, to the unfolding, its faith, faith, faith. Spirit moves through all things." From "Science", by System of a Down
Reply:

are you trying to tell me that i'm going to hell, patient?
Quit it! I'm not gonna be a Mormon, ok? ::humming 'faith' by george michael:: go pray that you can get the hell out of Utah, before you 'pine-nut away.'
"thanks for the thoughts but:" WTF is that? Oh wait I see... then you follow it with your god/maynard/Jesus/triad power-prayer. Just for me? I'm feelin the holy ghost, keep praying...

Seriously man, you're terminology says it all:
"It's calling me...(He's) calling me."
He will mention something and He will make your weather change.
The light is God's existence and love for all of us.
the life giving fusion ball God has so kindly made for us.
there is a God and he does actually care about you and is right there to help

Granted you do have some good, spiritual points, but then you turn around and say "he wants this" or"he made this" or any other crap. You'd probably swear up and down that jesus was white too. It sounds to me like you've got the 'religious-angst' You've had some healthy spiritual movement through whatever means, just not the religion you were taught. now that spiritual PRE-enlightenment clashes with all the religious crap thats been shoved down your throat. "god is a man..."or a woman for that matter. crap. god makes things specifically for us, to destroy it no less. crap. you kind of sound like sunday school on acid. and then you try to reinforce your postmodern neochristian view with system of a down lyrics. system of a down? and i know this 'religious-angst' thing pretty good when i hear it; i used to have it as well. I went to a catholic school for almost 14 years, and it took a lot to undo all of that. and you have to undo it, because it's a battle you can't win. pick a side or erase the line, just don't teter. god is just that, god.

Reply: NONE (still waiting, although I kinda know what he'll say...)

[BlooReflection696]

I like that post good interpretation, but If I tried I could get another subject and narrow it down, just as well, I believe because of hi good use of metaphors and similies imagery etc, that there is no telling what it means to Maynard and it can match anything probably, maybe he wants it to match whatever suits YOU best.

[neochrist]

If you havnt read "The Book of Enoch".....read it and be enlightened.

[AllforUnity]

Read the Confessions by Crowely.

[corps d'allumen]

I don't know.. I partially agree and disagree...

for some of us who have been raised christian.. and pushed it down upon us.. We seem to rebel against it.. as humans, I think we all go through a stage of "rebellion".. this is nececarry only to discover our own personal self. This may include a moment of personal englightenment. However, there is a chance this could lead one down the path of ego and pride.. being self-centered.. however, this is a lonely path and if you keep yourself open-minded, you'll see the best way to change the world is not to rebel against it.. but to work with it and change it from inside. I Myself was raised lutheran.. and still consider Myself a christian today (more spirtiual than christian per se).. however, I am definitely into spirtitual and new-age ideas.. so I try to compliment Myself by embracing my past and present by saying I'm a new-age lutheran... I think a lot of people are ignorant to the fact as bas as religion CAN be, it does do a lot of good things... do any of you have problems with black southern baptists?

however, I tend to think of this song as just letting go of past grudges... for instance.. My older sister was raped.. however, we are all human and have needs to have sex.. I found Myself holding grudges to the "scarlett letterman" who would use girls in such a way. But today, I have learned to let it go and as well as My sister.. and she is much happier now...living her dream. Point is.. we need to let go off the pain the past to embrace the happiness in the present and future.
I rebelled for a long time... I came to terms with it, but I don't consider myself a new-age anything. To put a known label on it, it would be a radical Deism. I might even be called a blasphemer by xtians if I really went into what I 'believe.' Like I said before, I ditched religion to find God. If religion's what someone needs, by all means go for it. But I think it's important for people to understand that it's not the only path or answer, or question for that matter. Also, I really don't have a problem with blacks, southerns, or baptists, in general. I have bigger problems with Olestra...

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

It isn't always about religion, Tool doesn't just talk about religion... but yeah i think it's about spirituality and cleansing of the spirit etc

[corps d'allumen]

It isn't always about religion, Tool doesn't just talk about religion... but yeah i think it's about spirituality and cleansing of the spirit etc
Which has been perverted by organized religion, for the most part:)

[corps d'allumen]

there are tons of other things in life that are preverted than religion....

the real pervert is politics and it is everywhere. Religion is just the means to an end... so it really shouldn't be the focal point of perversion.
That implies that the church and the state are really separate... hmmm.

[AllforUnity]

One nation under God.

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Which has been perverted by organized religion, for the most part:)

Exactly.

No I mean it. Exactly [insert giant fucking period here]

[corps d'allumen]

no, it means that no matter how much we want them to be separate, they will never be.... They should be separate though but this can never be truly achieved.... each religion has its own ways of survival... with Christians, they tend to try to help the "weak and powerless" and have them join their flock.. it's a great economic and political plan. It's a good way for each member of the flock to survive.. look at animal patterns and you'll see why animals travel and stay together in herds to see how it works. People tend to follow the "winning team" as a basis for suvival. If suvival were never an issue, then we could live in a utopian society of perfect separation of church and state.
I know what you meant; I think you missed the sarcasm:)

[corps d'allumen]

One nation under God.

Exactly.

No I mean it. Exactly [insert giant fucking period here]

That is so awesome; I'm glad you both follow my point:)

[Stevie]

I think I can offer some added reinforcement. The term "transmutation" is appropriately used to describe shifting from one belief or religion to another; or perhaps, an old belief to a new. In doing so, many facets of an initial philosophy often remain the same to soften the blow. For example, it has been recognized that many parts of Christianity are "borrowed" from ancient religions ("god-eating", self sacrifice, December 25th, halos, etc.). It is the god that is replaced for the most part. I would suggest that this part of "The Grudge" tells the listener that no particular religion is right or wrong, meaningless window-dressing displays are a waste of time. Love your neighbor or enemy, do something positive with your life, and if you do believe there's someone in control, don't worry about where he wants you to go on Sunday. Or Friday. Or everyday.

"Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor, let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold."