Again, Meaning

[ThreeDeviations]

The song's backbone is the question, "Is this a test?" (faith, life, being alive)

Are our lives as humans merely a test... is there something after our time on Earth that will make enduring humanity worth the pain and frustration?

"If there were no rewards to reap.
No loving embrace to see me through
This tedious path I've chosen here
I certainly would've walked away by now."

That particular part might kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

1) If his belief in the afterlife didn't exist... he wouldn't any longer either.
2) It's a "thank-you" to all of the true fans out there who love the music... who help give him (or them) a source of love/inspiration occasionally. . .

"If there were no desire to heal
The damaged and broken met along
This tedious path I've chosen here
I certainly would've walked away by now..."

He wants to heal. Emotionally, his perspective... his faith.
The damaged is him. . . Maynard.
The broken.... - those are the fans.
So the music has served as a medium to allow the damaged and broken to meet along his tedious path.
If there were no desire to heal, he would've ended it by now.

The potential reward for believing, being a moral person and sticking out this difficult "test" potentially has a great reward in the end.
He realizes this and has decided to "wait it out" to see if his persistence will be rewarded through his patience...


Who are those rewarded for their enduring faith? The Patient.

He must keep reminding himself.

[Suso22]

I agree with most of what you had to say except the part about the afterlife. How do you know Maynard believes in the afterlife?? Maybe he's seeking reward BEFORE he dies so as to feel that satisfaction of achievement of healing either himself or others?

[ThreeDeviations]

What makes me think Maynard believes in afterlife?

Well, I've listened to Lateralus once or twice before... which is all you really need.

I am sure he wants to heal before he leaves his human body, too.. which you referred to, which was a good thought.

Maynard doesn't know what is after this life... but he thinks there is something bigger than mere humanity and he's ready to accept, and actually embrace this reality... because he realizes we're a result of something bigger, even if it cannot be completely defined, explained, or completely comprehended by him or anyone else.


Reaching out to embrace the random.
Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.

I embrace my desire to
feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral
of our divinity and still be a human.

I realize I quoted the song Lateralus, even though we're talking about The Patient. The point is, it's a common sentiment throughout the cd.

Swing on the spiral of our divinity? Divinity does imply "God." So if a person believes in a God, they'd likely believe in some form of afterlife.

[Suso22]

The reward for the taking this tedious path Maynard speaks of is intrinsic. Life's reward is the path itself...I don't need a religion to come to that conclusion. I think a discussion of the afterlife is irrelevant in this instance. I agree that this song is him perhaps "waiting it out," but that's just it, our patience is the virtue he is trying to establish as an important ingredient in our everyday lives for survival, mentally and physically. Because if we do not stay consistently patient in all of our endeavors, which can be seemingly endless in their tedium, we are just basically, "waiting to die."

[ThreeDeviations]

Swing on the spiral of OUR divinity. It's not so intrinsic.
If it was a totally personal, internalized thing, he wouldn't say "our."

There's no basis for "life's reward is the path itself."

I never mentioned "religion."


You seem to to think it's solely a human issue.
You basically say patience is just a virtue needed by humans in general to sustain... both "mentally and physically."

I disagree.

Click your heels 3 times and say aloud...

"Is this a test?"

"Is this a test?"

"Is this a test?"

Click your heels once and ask yourself...



"Who's grading?"

.

[AllforUnity]

*clicks heals together 3 times and repeats 'is this a test?' with every click*


Hey look, l'm in Kansas.

[Suso22]

Swing on the spiral of OUR divinity. It's not so intrinsic.
If it was a totally personal, internalized thing, he wouldn't say "our."

There's no basis for "life's reward is the path itself."

I never mentioned "religion."


You seem to to think it's solely a human issue.
You basically say patience is just a virtue needed by humans in general to sustain... both "mentally and physically."

I disagree.

Click your heels 3 times and say aloud...

"Is this a test?"

"Is this a test?"

"Is this a test?"

Click your heels once and ask yourself...



"Who's grading?"

.


I'm not exactly sure where you are going with your argument, maybe I can shed some light while you click your glimmery heels:

1) use of the word 'our' argument> simple solution...substitute the word 'your,' instead.
2)If you wish to turn this into a debate of after or no after-life, I will not take bait...philosiphy section.

3)There is a basis for "Life itself as an intrinsic reward," actually. For the sake of argument, I will assume a persona of someone who does not believe in God. I also do NOT believe in the after-life. So, believing this...I still need something else to believe in...something that keeps me going...I need to be assured that I will be rewarded for all the love and hard work I've dedicated towards my personal well-being.>> Enter the song, Patience or idea thereof<< Ahh, thats it! Life is its own reward, I just provided for my own well being, hence, I reap what I sew

4) Lastly, I would just like to include the fact that your post made me think, which is in itself, also a reward for my patience,and in this case, when waiting to see someone's insight into my train of thought, thanks.

[ThreeDeviations]

I already knew you didn't believe.

You try to change whole words to suit your sadness. Go ahead if it makes you feel better.

Change the word "our" to "your?"

Change whatever you want if it makes you feel less miserable.

and you never answered my one question.

If this (life) is a "test," then who's "grading?"

A test issued by who/what?
Or are you going to change the word "test" to..... "mess" to make some Earthly, human reference?

Is this a mess, it has to be.

[Suso22]

Firstly, I 'hear' the word <your>, but I don't interpret that line in a specific way because it suits my wants or needs...by the by I am not in misery in case you were wondering, I just enjoy interpreting songs in my own way if that is alright with you. Besides, I don't think it is that much of a stretch, anyway...but, that is my opinion.

Secondly, perhaps that line, 'Is this a test?' is referring to the mind as a test for the body...or maybe, the subconscious testing the conscious part of ourselves, if that could make sense. I will think of a good example, I promise...as soon as I have time...which will be tomorrow morning, and I'll post it here...thanks.

[Suso22]

I used to have a slight phobia of skiing, because it is somewhat dangerous...I have always been conscious of this anxiety towards the sport. I finally agreed to go with my girlfriend, to confront my fears. My mind is to test my body and its parameters...my subconscious fear will be overtaken by my conscious willingness to ski down that mountain. This was a test to see how my physical person would react to a subconscious fear which was solely a product of my own imagination since I have never physically performed the act of skiing before that day. I hope that example shed some light on the point I was trying to make. Any thoughts?

[AllforUnity]

l don't see why you would want to change things.

[ThreeDeviations]

suso

yes, it's okay with me if you want to interpret songs your own way.


I have a murdering phobia. Because I could get caught...

The Test is not getting captured by authorities.

any thoughts?

[Suso22]

AFU-Who is to say I changed anything?? You think that because Maynard sends Kabir a specific lyric sheet that those lyrics are set in stone? I think that there could be a lot of discrepancy concerning the lyrical content of some of T00L's songs. I don't understand why you and 3dev are harping on this. For instance, in 'sober,' I think that line is generally accepted as 'why can't we not be sober?'.....However, some also perceive it to be 'why can we not be sober,' and rightfully so.....They SOUND very similar........so lay off.

If you don't agree, I dare you both to start a poll and see what everyone here at TDN think about this topic?? hmm?

3dev- Your acidic sarcasm will get you nowhere but ignored.

[ThreeDeviations]

I have done several posts where I state what Maynard actually says relative to what was submitted to TDN. So I'm not harping on that specifically. What I am "harping" on is that if you're going to claim he says something else, then explain how it makes sense it the context of the song with your new wording. You attempted to... but I definitely dont agree.

In Lateralus "Swing on the spiral of our divinity." Whether or not it's "your" or "our" is really moot. If you want to personalize the song, and obviously you do... then fine- say it's "your." That still doesn't change the fact that he says "divinity," which suggests God. Basically the line meaning, "appreciate the humanity that has been granted to you by God." (Recognize it [life] as a holy gift... and celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing)

So whether it's Lateralus or The Grudge... there's a divinity running through it. I know you don't believe in God, so you'll twist words or meaning to suit your fear.

If you won't accept it... go to hell.

[Suso22]

First of all, I personally do believe in some sort of idea of god...regarding my earlier post on this topic, I was merely creating an alternate persona solely for the sake of our argument. Be careful with what you assume I believe or don't believe in because you will make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me.'

Secondly, you need to decide which song we are to discuss, Lateralus or the Patient. I say this because my original sentiment was for you to separate this ever-present notion of 'divinity', from the other, namely the after-life. One does NOT go hand in hand with the other, necessarily. I just tried to point out that maybe all that we go through everyday has a more intrinsic reward, rather than that reward being something that is, at this point, nothing more than a leap of faith.

[ThreeDeviations]

You changed to first person... and that is why I interpreted it the way I did- in regard to your "believing" or not. I don't need the 3rd grade cliche. And by the way, believing in "some sort of idea of God" and actually believing in God are two different things entirely.

The bottom line is that the whole cd has a spiritual theme to it.... not just The Patient... so you constantly trying to smother the divinity within it is just redonkulous.

If you don't think divinity is synonymous with God relative to these songs.... then you're listening to different songs than me.

"Swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human." and still be a human, and still be a human.
Think about that line for a few minutes.

Why would he say "AND STILL BE A HUMAN," if he wasn't referring to something larger than humanity itself? "Still" being the key word.

That's why right after he sings that line in the song... there's a short lapse where nothing really occurs musically... attempting to amplify the significance of what he just said.

Under your theory.. the "intrinsic awakening/revival/whatever" meaning. Why would he ever say say "swing on the spiral of our divinity and STILL BE A HUMAN???"

I could point out many examples in the song that suggest a divinity to it.... things that tell the listener it should be realized on a higher, holier realm than merely from a human skin and bones perspective.


Is this a test?

Who is he directing that question to?



Keepin' Faith

[Suso22]

Well, you make a good point with that line, 'Swing on the spiral of our divinity and STILL BE A HUMAN.' I guess this would be a direct reference to something divine that we as humans must be associeated with. Perhaps, this 'test' is administered to ourselves through our unconscious which I already postulated here earlier in this thread. These self-administered tests of patience help us to grow and learn how to become more complete, individuals....hence, the rewards reaped are intrinsic.

Now, as far as the association with divinity, we could refer to the 'All one mind' concept of the plight of our souls after-death. Our souls' destiny is to perhaps reunite with all others to form 'one whole consciousness.'

'Is this a test?'----He is, perhaps, asking 'himself' that question.

[def]

Jesus christ. Dont separate one piece from the rest. "Is this a test? IT HAS TO BE, OTHERWISE I CANT GO ON". He is not asking anyone anything, he is discussing with himself. He is also telling himself what he wants to believe. If he accepts the fact it is not a test, and there is no additional meaning to life, then whats the point of living. Stop being a bunch of asshole Bablyon 5 nerds and read the fucking words. /rant

[ThreeDeviations]

Hey Dipshit Def.

It is separated even though the whole thought is obviously connected.... but the whole root of the song hinges on the question of, "is this a test?"

If ya don't believe me that it's separated... and for perfect reasoning..... then go look at the submitted lyrics and see if it's one sentence or "separated."

Other than that, you have a good grasp on the song-

[herarety]

I don't think 'our divinity' refers to god. I think it refers to enlightenment and the wonders of the human mind. That is, there is divinity within us all as humans and to swing on the spiral is to discover and experience it. Note the god in human brain in the booklet.

[def]

OMG dude, wow, WOW, are you interpreting the song by how the lyrics are written on a page? It is one phrase, he is answering his own question in the form of discussion. And what's with this dipshit shit, do you actually believe your interpretation is more correct than anyone elses? You need a reality check. Asshole.

[ThreeDeviations]

Son, keep that mouth toned down. You're a hypocrite and you don't comprehend too well.

You're blind enough to say...
"Stop being a bunch of asshole Bablyon 5 nerds and read the fucking words. /rant"

and then have the nerve to say..... "you actually believe your interpretation is more correct than anyone elses?"

drrr......

but to answer your question... yes, I do.

this isn't kindergarten where everyone gets a star just for trying.

there really are right and wrong interpretations.

he actually did have real reasoning behind why he wrote it.

there was a reason that inspired, or urged him to write this and other songs.

there actually is a right and wrong in the author's mind.

if this area on TDN asked you to state what the song means to YOU... then there's no absolute. But others come here posting about what the author meant.... and there is absolute.

now

I could write a poem

and you could interpret it

incorrectly.

But if your wrong meaning makes you feel empowered, or happy... then good for you.

Be wrong with a smile.

It doesn't mean you're right about my meaning... just because you have a dumb grin and feel warm inside.

The ironic thing about your amusing posts is that you agree with my perception. However, you have the attention span of hummingbird so you don't have the ability to even realize it.

I don't interpret meaning solely by how lyrics are posted on the page. The fact remains that "Is this a test" is a separate, important thought... hence, the question mark and the end of the sentence. That, dipshit, is what the whole song hinges on. Of course he's thinking out loud during the song. You think that's insight?!? Nice work.



ps- No poets or song writers have any real meaning behind any of their poems or songs- They just put a bunch of interesting words next to one another so people can form their own interpretations. They can take their tidy little book with the tidy little bookmarker into Starbucks, sit with their tidy little legs crossed and sip on 5 dollar sugar so they appear layered and intelligent and form tidy little incorrect happy thoughts.

[MrMcPheezy]

Son, keep that mouth toned down. You're a hypocrite and you don't comprehend too well.

You're blind enough to say...
"Stop being a bunch of asshole Bablyon 5 nerds and read the fucking words. /rant"

and then have the nerve to say..... "you actually believe your interpretation is more correct than anyone elses?"

drrr......

but to answer your question... yes, I do.

this isn't kindergarten where everyone gets a star just for trying.

there really are right and wrong interpretations.

he actually did have real reasoning behind why he wrote it.

there was a reason that inspired, or urged him to write this and other songs.

there actually is a right and wrong in the author's mind.

if this area on TDN asked you to state what the song means to YOU... then there's no absolute. But others come here posting about what the author meant.... and there is absolute.

now

I could write a poem

and you could interpret it

incorrectly.

But if your wrong meaning makes you feel empowered, or happy... then good for you.

Be wrong with a smile.

It doesn't mean you're right about my meaning... just because you have a dumb grin and feel warm inside.

The ironic thing about your amusing posts is that you agree with my perception. However, you have the attention span of hummingbird so you don't have the ability to even realize it.

I don't interpret meaning solely by how lyrics are posted on the page. The fact remains that "Is this a test" is a separate, important thought... hence, the question mark and the end of the sentence. That, dipshit, is what the whole song hinges on. Of course he's thinking out loud during the song. You think that's insight?!? Nice work.



ps- No poets or song writers have any real meaning behind any of their poems or songs- They just put a bunch of interesting words next to one another so people can form their own interpretations. They can take their tidy little book with the tidy little bookmarker into Starbucks, sit with their tidy little legs crossed and sip on 5 dollar sugar so they appear layered and intelligent and form tidy little incorrect happy thoughts.


Where in California do you live?

[randomspiral]

I dont know if this has been said or not but give me your insight on it anway. The song can be related to anything when u think about it thats wat makes it great. But I was reading up on meditation and listen to the song after i got some info about it and I think that it is possible that the song is about Meditation........think about it....and also the following track Mantra is a meditation term for a word that u keep repeating (Must keep reminding myself of this) over and over again in order to fall into meditation.

[JLS]

Of course the writer of a song has a specific meaning in mind. That isn't in question ThreeDev. What these people are trying to make you see is your inability to acknowledge that you might not know what Maynard intended the meaning of this song to be. Until Maynard sits down with you and TELLS you what the meaning is, you won't know. If you have yourself convinced that you DO know what this song is about, then you are deluded. Literally. Delusion is "to be convinced of something that isn't true". The truth is that you DON'T know, for sure, what this song is about. You are convinced that you do. Therefore, you are delusional concerning this discussion.

Also, you've mentioned "fear" a couple of times during the course of this debate. You should know that fear and anger are both threat responses. When we are faced with a threat we react by feeling either fear, which causes us to flee or anger, which causes us to fight. Your posts are brimming with anger and hostility which clearly shows you to be a person who is constantly feeling threatened by people disagreeing with you--especially concerning your beliefs.

As for the song itself, for you to assume that Maynard is one to believe in anything found in Western Judeo-Christian belief systems is strange. On many occasions throughout all of their albums he directly attacks that type of thinking. It's pretty clear that you are trying to convince yourself that he thinks similarly to you so that your own beliefs can be validated by someone whom you clearly respect. In fact, I've never heard him state--in his music, or anywhere else for that matter--that he holds any beliefs whatsoever. However, we have definitely heard him disagree with religion, Christianity specifically, in Opiate and Eulogy, to name a couple. For all you know, he's offended by belief and hopes that anyone who does believe falls into Arizona Bay along with the rest of the people he percieves to be ignorant. The only fact any of us can state here concerning the meaning of any of TOOL's songs is that we simply don't know...

[zacharyv]

I think this song is about the music business.

It's a bitch. I also think it had to do with the legal battles with the label and all that.
I can just imagine him sitting, listening to the attorneys(ies?) droning on about business law and blaaaaaaaaaah blah blah-ing, draining paitience and vitality, everyone acting paranoid, but too paralyzed to jump up and just figure it out... and his eyes drooping closed and thinking "Is this a test?!" Of course, it has to be. If this was what he started Tool for, why the fuck is he even involved in it?!?!

If there were no rewards to reap, he would have walked away by now, and he must be reminding himself of this. It's about the music, it's about the band. This song is a reminder of why he got himself into the BIZ in the first place. Not because of money or lawyers or whatever else, it's because of the ART. It heals him, and if there were no desire to heal he certainly wouldn't still fucking be here 12 years later.
That's what I think.
-zach-

[je0]

I think most of you guys aren't listening to the fact that Maynard said the main theme of Lateralus is rediscovering communication. So what does that actually mean? Communication as a universe, as an after life, as society, or many other ideas that have some sort of communication with yourself. With these being said, most songs on Lateralus are either Parabols(Lessons) or mockeries trying to teach you a lesson. The Grudge is a lesson all in itself. The Patient is sort of a mockery but teaching a lesson. But what exactly is the point of these lessons? Well the point is to rediscover communication.

"A groan of tedium escapes me startling the fearful"

This person is tired of something startling the fearful

"Is this a test?"

Is this form of communication or conversation a test? Thoughts run through his head because this person is paranoid. Everything this man is saying is a test it just has to be. If it is I cant go on. I'm draining all of this patience and I dont want to be right here. Al lot of people with anxieties (sp?) experience a lot of problems when it comes to talking to people. And there always telling themselves that the way they are acting is just getting old.

This paralyzed vampire acts a little old. This person is so caught up in this paranoia that he feels paralyzed to where he cant do anything at all in this conversation. The other person seems to be doing all this paranoia to the paranoid person but its really himslef.

But "The Patient" ( the one who feels is getting examined like a test) is still right there giving blood(vampire act) keeping faith.

The Patient is going to wait it out.

Now here is the lesson

If there were nothing to gain from the damaged and broken met a long.......The Patient certainly would have walked away by now. And he still may.

And a lot of people have been asking about the part where he says......"I still may and I am."

I think the answer to that is about 15 sec after that where he says....."Gonna wait it out"

Well he's actually saying "I still may and I am gonna wait it out."

This is all my opinion though. Lets pretend this is right or this is wrong....the point is, the song is vague enough to apply anything to it. So he is using the lyrics to communicate or influence and inspire communication.

[tcM_Emperor]

I agree with ThreeDeviations. It makes a lot more sense that asking "Is this a test" is referring to something/someone testing him rather then him questioning if he's somehow testing himself.

Also he's right about interpretations. Maynard makes his lyrics vague so that people can get their own meaning out of it, but he also has his own personal experience/fantasy that inspired it.

Maynard has always said he's a spiritual person, and he states in the album that "We are eternal all this pain is an illusion". Now even though scientifically that has a lot of relevance(sarcasm) I'm gonna lean towards the spiritual side of that phrase.

[je0]

I still tend to read the lyrics more as relationships.

"we are eternal all this pain is an illusion."

We (Me and you(Our relationship)) is eternal and all the hate, pain, lies, backstabbing is an illusion because we were really meant to be.

"This body holding me reminding me that I am not alone."

I tend to think of the body as more of a body of people. A family if you will. This family holding me reminding that I am not alone.

But the whole spiritual thing works out just as well, but i tend to relate and communicate with the lyrics, music, and message much better when I relate the lyrics to relationships.

Another question is why Tool would write such dark and depressing music when it's all revolved around spirituality. I think spirituality needs to be a little bit more optimistic and uplifting. Not that their music isn't uplifting, I just think the tone in the music fits with relationships falling apart and rediscovering eachother.

[ThreeDeviations]

TCM- Glad to see someone out there gets it... Thank you.


JLS- This obviously is an OPINION page... I write and think so clearly and passionately that you mistake my words for FACT. I'm not going to preface all my entries by saying "I don't know for sure," or "this is just my opinion" but.... blah blah blah...
of course I don't know with 100% certainty about my interpretations about the 1 ACTUAL meaning.... but I use all my senses to formulate interpretations that make a great deal of perfect sense. They make sense for anyone who would read them thoroughly... not just me.
Go read them all. You'll learn something.

I never said Maynard believed in some type of "religion." However, he is spiritual. Don't make bogus accusations.

Maynard is a scared man with many insecurities.

I very much appreciate his musical abilities... his writing style and his passion.
That doesn't mean I want to emulate Maynard.

The irony is that I BELIEVE that you're atheist... and you're the one who does whatever it takes to make songs suit you to "validate" your BELIEF that he may feel the same.


This computer isn't real!

[ThreeDeviations]

JLS' quote
"For you to assume that Maynard is one to believe in anything found in Western Judeo-Christian belief systems is strange. On many occasions throughout all of their albums he directly attacks that type of thinking."

HMMM.

I thought that nobody could be so arrogant to presume to know the intent of lyrics... or GOD forbid... a whole song! Yet, somehow you apparently know that he's attacked religion in specific songs and throughout entire cd's before. Uncanny! The hypocrisy is amusing.

C'mon, in Opiate... he's really talking about Albert Pujols.

Nobody knows anything about Tool, Maynard, or any specific song. It's all just too much.

[ThreeDeviations]

Read it.

[CurtSchilling]

Read it.

As in: Go ahead... read it.
Or: Just read it.

?

D.

[ThreeDeviations]

Just read the thread.

[Lebowski]

song sucks