possible satire?

[torth]

I have finally come to grasp the fact that this song is mainly about religion. but this is just my opinion.

The lines concerning Jesus and Mother Mary ask [them] to whistle or whisper something "but the past and done." In this case, the "but" means "except." For someone who has had religion pounded into them since childhood, I have heard many stories about the bible. Because of this experience, I take these to lines to be a question of "tell me something new." In retrospect, christianity seems to take place in the past and it almost becomes a falsehood like mythology. The lessons taught in the someodd century old text are perceived as literally set in stone.

The first stanza or paragraph whatever you want to call it personifies the religion of christianity. To a christian who is not pure and sinless (to be one is arguably impossible), christianity points many fingers, unneccesarily protects with an unseen hand, and basically makes one feel like a worthless imbecile. In regard to the chorus, "Why can't we not be sober..I just want to start this over..why can't we drink forever..etc," I take it as meaning why can't we indulge ourselves. Religion, in this case, restricts personal freedoms and pleasures.

"Murder now the path called "must we" just before the son has come." I have a peeve of pulling religion out of songs where it obviously does not exist, but this line made its presence apparent to me. This line tells of the demand to 'murder' sin ('must we' I take to be a satire of the wording of the bible listing what is and is not allowed), which is highly ironical because one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not kill. Sin is more heavily prevalent before the coming of Jesus, before, according to the bible, he died for everyone's sins.

The line repeated in the end is "trust me." Another problem with religion is that people are too quick to put all of their trust in a god. They, without question, believe in the "god, the son and the holy spirit" and live their lives accordingly and are given false hope.

What I can't figure out is if the main paragraph "I am just a worthless liar... just enough to bring you down" is supposed to be the speaker or god/jesus. In a sense, both would be comprehensible. It wouldn't make sense for the point of view to change and "I" to mean someone else, but the lyrics work better if you view the speaker of only that paragraph to be god/jesus. Or could the speaker be mocking god/jesus in that paragraph and making a satire of how people trust the divinity, one that will complicate and demolish you? Any opinions?

[magdalena_jane]

it's probably just me but something is really wrong about the line "waiting like a stalking butler" the song is really awesome to that point and then you hear the line and think... where the hell did that come from???

is that just me?

[torth]

I think the stalking butler fits in perfectly to give a visual image to the object or idea being described. The same personification of that idea is mentioned as a shadow. I think both are used to convey a feeling of being watched or followed all the time. I know words have different connotations to different people, which is probably why you don't think the line fits in, but to me, I picture this creepy old guy whom you would always kind of feel his presence lurking behind you.... so I think it adds to the song by relating a common mental picture to enhance the meaning.

[Thrakandor]

Good post. I like this interpretation.

And 'stalking butler' is an awesome example of imagery.

[magdalena_jane]

i see now and it's not so bad anymore... all apologies

[Cylith]

The lessons taught in the someodd century old text are perceived as literally set in stone.

They, without question, believe in the "god, the son and the holy spirit" and live their lives accordingly and are given false hope.

Hmm. I've been taught that each lesson in the bible is open to interpretation. Most priests will admit that. I'm not sure why you think the lessons are taught as literally set in stone.

I question my religion all the time. Because of this questioning I have become a non-denominational Christian. I believe in most of the basic Christian beliefs, but there seems to be too many man-made rules that I don't want to put my trust into.

False hope? What are you referring to here?



You're not the first to come up with ideas like this, btw. I posted something mildly similar in another thread. I'm sure others have done it before me. I'll post it again here since this thread seems to be getting more attention.

[Cylith]

The following is a previous post of mine found in another thread in this forum:

The following is not what I think the song is about, necessarily, but rather, it’s more of an interesting idea.

I sometimes see this song as Maynard’s (or whoever’s) wish that there is no after life, that Christianity is what he believes but does not want it to be correct.

“There's a shadow just behind me,
shrouding every breath I take,
making every promise empty,
pointing every finger at me.
Waiting like a stalking butler
who upon the finger rests.
Murder now the path called "must we"
just before the son has come.”

The shadow could be religion…

“I am just a worthless liar.
I am just an imbecile.
I will only complicate you.
Trust in me and fall as well.
I will find a center in you.
I will chew it up and leave,
I will work to elevate you
just enough to bring you down.”

This could be sung from the perspective of religion itself.

“I just want to start this over.
Why can't we sleep forever.
I just want to start things over.”

This could be Maynard’s desire for the afterlife to be non-existent.

[torth]

[QUOTE=Cylith]Hmm. I've been taught that each lesson in the bible is open to interpretation. Most priests will admit that. I'm not sure why you think the lessons are taught as literally set in stone.

...there seems to be too many man-made rules that I don't want to put my trust into.

False hope? What are you referring to here?[QUOTE]

I don't deny the bible is open to interpretation, I just think those alternate interpretations aren't concentrated on enough. I said the lessons are taught as literally set in stone for two reasons. The first, I was trying to humorously allude to the ten commandments that were carved in stone, and sadly failed. Second, I think the dominant lessons pulled out of bible stories and made into man-made rules are too harshly focused on. Plus, I've heard them so many times that I'm too tired of them to find other meaning. I guess that's pathetic on my part and I'm denying myself of further knowledge about religion or that I'm avoiding it because I don't want some factors of religion to be correct (as with your interpretation of this song), but....

I did kind of throw that false hope thing in there without explanation. The best way I can describe that is with the "deaf and blind and born to follow" angle. Not all christians are this way, but some seem to latch on to religion when things are going badly without truly understanding everything they are devoting their lives to.

"I am just a worthless liar.
I am just an imbecile.
I will only complicate you.
Trust in me and fall as well.
I will find a center in you.
I will chew it up and leave,
I will work to elevate you
just enough to bring you down."

If this lyric is meant to be religion personified, then, going along with the song, the hope of starting over into a wonderful new life of religion that some christians have is false.

"I sometimes see this song as Maynard’s (or whoever’s) wish that there is no after life, that Christianity is what he believes but does not want it to be correct. " Very interesting perspective. Those lines make more sense to me now. I'm sure other people have posted something along the lines of what I did, I just hadn't seen anything similar lately and thought it was a worthy topic.

[AllforUnity]

Nice. And nice stalking butler imagery up there.

[Skinshifter01]

Nice description of the said "butler" through imagery.

I have a few problems with your explanation of this song. Yes, it deals with Christianity very plainly. I can agree with that, however, I do not think that MJK was using a metaphor necissarily, in the "Why can't we not be sober..." I think he seriously wants to be un-sober, to drink away his fears and his past and his apparent paranoia.

I think he lashes out at Jesus for obvious reasons, and I think that he lashes out at Mary like you would if you were the "master" so to speak, of the said "butler". I think he's yelling at her, begging her to let him be, to quit calling up his past, to just leave him be and let him get drunk.

That's how I look at it, anyway.

[Cylith]

I don't deny the bible is open to interpretation, I just think those alternate interpretations aren't concentrated on enough.
I thought that every priest gave his own interpretation of each passage after the passage was read in church. Sometimes the interpretation is something you except, and something there’s more to it. I think I have even heard a priest/pastor who said something along the lines of “Now many people interpret blah blah blah to mean dah dah dah, but I think it can also have a different/additional meaning. And that is cha cha cha.” You understand, I’m sure.

I said the lessons are taught as literally set in stone for two reasons. The first, I was trying to humorously allude to the ten commandments that were carved in stone, and sadly failed.
I get it now…it’s actually kinda funny.

Second, I think the dominant lessons pulled out of bible stories and made into man-made rules are too harshly focused on.
Indeed. And that is very bad. Because the bible is open to interpretation I feel it’s almost wrong to blindly follow it’s stories…blindly following a lesson that could be interpreted a different way…who’s to say which way is the right way? I say “Let your conscience be your guide.”

I did kind of throw that false hope thing in there without explanation. The best way I can describe that is with the "deaf and blind and born to follow" angle. Not all christians are this way, but some seem to latch on to religion when things are going badly without truly understanding everything they are devoting their lives to.
I am a Christian, and I do my best to not blindly follow. I admit I do sometimes.

Also, along the lines of what you were saying, I tend to become more religion when times are bad. (For me, it’s more like I latch onto God himself, not really religion or its rules.) Most people who are religious in some way seem to be like that. I try not to be, I try to thank God through prayer even when things are good. Ultimately, I know that God understands I’m human, and that I’m not perfect.

"I am just a worthless liar.
I am just an imbecile.
I will only complicate you.
Trust in me and fall as well.
I will find a center in you.
I will chew it up and leave,
I will work to elevate you
just enough to bring you down."

If this lyric is meant to be religion personified, then, going along with the song, the hope of starting over into a wonderful new life of religion that some christians have is false.
Not necessarily false hope. The lyrics could be the personification of religion, but religion is often what you make of it. Someone could start over in a better life involving religion…it’s certainly possible. Moreover, I believe in heaven, and that is a wonderful existence...the hope of it is not false to me.

I think those lyrics are more of Maynard’s interpretation of religion personified (if indeed that’s what those lyrics are about), not really my own.

I'm sure other people have posted something along the lines of what I did, I just hadn't seen anything similar lately and thought it was a worthy topic.
Good thing you did, ‘cause this was fun to talk about.

[torth]

yes, it was fun to talk about. I'm glad I could make my interpretation more clear. I have trouble way too often with not accurately saying what I intend. I agree that the song is probably more the writer's interpretation and that religion is what you make of it. Religion used to be a lot more important to me; i changed, it didn't. Religion is also situational. I've been guilty of clinging to it when something bad goes wrong, then feeling guilty when it's only the bad times that I go for support. It's funny how you're really never concious of it until afterwards.
With the priest thing, I get what you mean with the "blah blahs" My opinion about them is a little bias because I grew up in a very traditional church that didn't really explore that many options. In high school I went to a more open church, but the priest put too many of his personal views in his preachings. That's beside the point but I definitely see where youre coming from on that.

[torth]

Skinshifter - nice connection with the "master" and butler relationship. I didn't really take the other role into consideration as much as I probably should have. I think "why can we not be sober" can be taken both metaphorically and literally. Getting drunk could be included in my take of depriving people of indulgences; the song completely supports your argument about him just getting hammered and wanting to forget about everything. Hah, that actually makes for a pretty humorous mental picture (although I know Maynard may not actualy be the speaker of the song): Maynard sitting in a huge red chair wearing a smoker's robe with a scotch and a cigarette in hand while the butler from Batman is creepin behind him in the hallway and he's yelling at mary to leave him alone. Or that could be a personalized mental picture... hah

[AllforUnity]

Sober doesn't just mean drinking. But l think this is a rather litteral translation...l agree, TOOL does use a lot of metephorical terms...BUT if you pay alot of attention to the songs and lyrics on this album, most of the things like that, or the things that can be said literal, are that way.

[Kapoo]

Fuck jesus in his stupid hippie ass.

i also think its about religion but in a different way methinks the phrase
WHY CANT WE NOT BE SOBER is using SOBER- as in unfaithful- as in thinking clear- and is asking why not be drunk-as in faithful- as in unfit to live- and is styating why in the verses this is my interperetation and definitly not maynards as it says in the faq that it is in fact literaly sober.

[forth eye]

i also think its about religion but in a different way methinks the phrase
WHY CANT WE NOT BE SOBER is using SOBER- as in unfaithful- as in thinking clear- and is asking why not be drunk-as in faithful- as in unfit to live- and is styating why in the verses this is my interperetation and definitly not maynards as it says in the faq that it is in fact literaly sober.

woah....ever heard of a full stop? :)
most tool songs can be interpretted in many ways and im sure that if you came up with a way of interpretting it that maynard did not intend he would not care cos i think that part of tool's lyrics is the way that people interpret them differently. It kinda makes it more personal to you if you are free to interpret them as you will. The whole religion thing is a good take on it and tool do talk alot about religion. the stalking butler line i think is realy good and the imagary is very poetic and also dark, which is how tool differ to many other bands, the lyrics are poetic in a way some others arent. the imagery they use in their songs is strong and im starting to ramble on now so ill stop...:)...

[Kapoo]

i recentley reinterperated sober and probably will soon post a thread on it
turns out i worded my last post here wrongly

[royc]

Butler Imagery. Remember those old murder mystery books, the ones where there has been a murder in the mansion and the detective has locked everyone inside untill he solves the crime. Every now and again the lights go out or something and then someone else ends up dead. The lines "pointing every finger at me" and "who upon the finger rest" are interesting, the butler trying to place blame when all suspitions are on him. That is just how i interpret the butler line.

This song does indeed have some interesting imagery regarding religon as well although i dont see it necessairly as a song about religon. I think it is instead about coping with that wicked little part of us that is so afraid of and has so many regrets about life. Rather than regret about his religon, it was his religon (more than just the churchs) itself that has created this shadowy monster within him. "The worthless liar" is the monters creed.

The course is exceptional, at times i wish i could do some things over again, at times i wish i wasn't born sober into this reality lord knows who i would be today without the herb, and most definatly at times i see the benifit of sleeping forever, this place would be so much more at peace if it didn't exist at all.