Have you acheived this state.

[Christopher]

I'm pretty sure i have not.

I am not one for drugs and all, but i want to acheive this state of higher being. Have you acheived this without a Hallucigen? I thought maybe you need one to break the ice. And once you found out how you got there, you could grow and do it on your own, without being dependent on the drug.

-discuss

[Bullet]

No I haven't, but I'd imagine it would happen when you are taking a dump...just like nirvana ;)

Seriously, I'd like to achieve this state (if it's somekind of enlightened state, that is...), but like I said (well, one of my opinions) it could be self-observation..

[ShackledEidolon]

Well I have experienced a very strange sense like this the one and only times I have tried shrooms. I took way too much for a first time and had a serious trip. Time went away and no longer made any sense at all...I had a stream of consciousness that flowed faster then I could speak. I was unable to put the things I thought into words because words didn't do them justice. The lack of time took away my sense of memory and I would often forget thoughts in mid sentence, combining it with new ones. At one point I had a set of repeating thoughts that kept occuring over and over...and at one point I thought I was dying (well kind of) I decided at that point that I might as not fear or fight it and suddenly I no longer had a sense of "I" There isnt anyway to really describe it other then a lack of Ego and a connection to everything. I didnt speak, I didn't really think in the conventional sense, and "I" didnt exist.

After this event I started reading a lot of books about meditations and yoga...i have gotten close to the state again...but I can't quite lose myself like i did before. But im still trying...

a side note, if you decide to try something like shrooms be sure to be careful and in a place where your actions will not effect anyone else. The notion of cause and effect fades away once you don't have a sense of time or memory. Your way of thinking goes away and if you lose your "I" then you will not exist in the normal physical way...completely unaware of what "I" is doing...coming back will bea shock

[J1516]

I don't think anyone could reach this state and then stop. The song seems to describe continuously flowing into other streams of consious thought, living more and discovering more about life and idea. You could reach an understanding at one point but conditions in life change, and you need to change with it. Here it means to grow and adapt to survive and become what you can truely become. So you could reach that point in your mind and apply it to make yourself pretty much invincible to whatever life can throw at you, and can allow a perfect harmonic state of being. Yet conditions change, and it's something we need, and at that point you would need to reach other states, so you can never actually permanetly achieve this state. Though it seems like something we would want to stop. I would think we would want to stop changing at some point when we reach an absolute perfect harmony between eachother. But since people change with different times and different more innovative ideas come up then change seems like it will constantly happen. But I'd say that this song really did changed me, the way I view the world, and the way I view music.

[blue]

well, this state is possible. it is, i think, identical to satori as thought of by zen buddhists. it's a total loss of self, integration with the big picture, and total inner peace. the zen monks spend years trying to get there, with no guarantee they'll succeed. personally, i think drugs *can* get you there, but they might not, and the state you achieve may be fleeting.

i've gotten close; sure, i was about 20,000 lightyears out of my skull. i'm currently striving to achieve something like it without drugs, because there are dangers. first of all, you may be deceiving yourself about being there; i won't go into the second guessing this brings up. second, in my experience it disappears with the drugs. carlos casteneda has some theories about why this is, but it took him 6 books to explain it so get it from him.

once i came up with another theory, that if you get to the point that you understand what that state entails, and are truly seeking it, then the only way to get there is to willingly sacrifice your mortal life knowing that it is only in truth an illusion and your consiousness is immortal, and that this state is the only thing in the universe worth striving for. then all you have to do is kill yourself for it, willingly, knowingly, and if your will and understanding don't falter you'll live forever and achieve ultimate power. this was on an extremely out there acid trip, but i'm not sure i'm wrong. let that be a warning for the faint of heart hoping to reach an easy nirvana through chemicals.

[LyingRealist]

I agree that a hallucinogen may be required to break through.
A friend who is a martial arts instructor told me he does it during meditation and no longer needs them.
he also advised me that to become dependant on drugs to open the third eye is harmful to u in more ways than the physical.

the end:)

[ShackledEidolon]

I can imagine that there is a problem with forcing your way to enlightenment. Perhaps we arrive at truth without the framework to understand it...unprepared. When I was tripping it was almost like I was tuning into a radio channel. It felt like 'reality' was a wave rising and falling with a particular amplitude. I could focus on it and remain within it or I could let go and flow out into something different. The problem was however that I had NO PROOF that what I experienced wasn't a hallucination and I had no way of having lasting belief in the state because it was brought about artificially.

[Passenger H]

I would have to reccomend using shrooms because they may help you get to this 'higher consciousness'. I reccomend shrooms because I assume they are safer then any other hallucogen (sp?) being they are organic rather then synthetic. I've tried a small dosage (1.5 grams) and I definatly felt like I knew the answers to everything and my third eye had been opened. Drug's can be good tools if used appropiatly, but do whatever you want.

[okkoto]

i don't know if this song is about a specific state though.

obviously it's about drugs, no question, but i always thought of it as someone who has not taken drugs for a long time coming back to them.

sort of like someone deciding "drugs are too much for me and overall i can do without them" and then coming back to them and realizing there is something very powerful there.

the face that the "narrator" is dreaming of is sorta like the spirit guide to all of this narrators previous trips. a familiar other that exists on a different plane. this other has missed the narrator, he hasnt visited the other space in awhile. " so good to see you once again. i thought that you were hiding from me, and you thought i had run away, chasing the tail of dogma"

the narrator comes back "whiping the webs and the dew from my withere eye". he sees this other place with his third eye, and since it has been out of use for so long it has become withered and covered in webs and dew. such an awesome image!!!

the starnge part fo this song comes in the middle with that softly spoken poem part, and this could actually be a descritpion of the state that the narrator is in

the only concrete realization that the narrator gives that i can inturpret comes from the child's rhyme. this is obviously "row row row your boat, gentley down the stream (of consciousness heheh), merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, LIFE IS BUT A DREAM" this correlates with the bill hick's quote from the begining "today a young man on acid..." and also is reminiscent of cowboy bebop...wich had a shroom episode.

as to the holy crow, and the blue second sun, i have no idea, but it sounds damn cool doenst it? the phospherescent desert buttons are most likely peyote.

so to sum up, i see it like the narrator giving up drugs but feeling lost and missing his sipirt familiar just as much as his spirit familiar missed him, wich is a damn interesting concept. they have a blessed reunion where the narrator then realizes life is but a dream and makes up a cool poem about a holy crow and a blue second sun.

but you don't have to take my word for it

[Christopher]

There is this state of Meditation where yuou can control your dreams,.........could this be it. Could you control your dream where the only thing working is your mind, there is no sense of time, so you could be there forever. Could you control your brain to see who you are and what you want. Go to the euphoric place that only you could truly be at home.

I was thinking of The movie, "The Cell" when writing this. {which BTW is a good imagry movie if you havent seen it}

[okkoto]

i just watched "waking life" on sunday and there is a whole portion on lucid dreaming, which is controling your dreams. actually that's where the title comes from, there's your dreaming life and your waking life. a part of the movie suggests that the 6(i think)min of brain functioning after death could mean thats what the afterlife is like, living in a dream you can never wake up from. so essentially our dreaming life will one day become more real than our waking life.

and of course that old philosophy quote fromt he dude who had a dream about being a butterfly and said when he woke up "am i a man dreaming i'm a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming i'm a man". descartes also talked alot about the difference, or lack of difference, between dream existance and conscious existance.

and then any buddhist will tell you that all our senses and perceptions are false. like an elephant's world is based mostly on smell and our world is based mostly on sight, so wich world is more real. all senses are empty....

did someone say something about tool??? :)

[Skye]

To walk a path to "Higher Awareness" just like any other process, needs to be done in steps to be permanent, I feel and have seen..
Drugs can jump start you, give you glimpses but it will still vanish as you get sober, and you will either have to take /do some more to get to the same state again, or "start over" without drugs.. Merely because you jumped over some steps on the ladder using drugs, that you will not be able to grasp or understand all you see..

I, myself, have done it without drugs. Merely because I don't believe in short cuts, but as always, people use their Free Will any way they want to.
Reaching a higher state of awareness takes Focus and Concentration.. You need to put in efforts, because it doen't just come to you..
As any growth, it needs nurturing :)

Meditation is a very simple way of reaching certain states. With time, you will reach what you want, but it requires Patience, and surely an open mind.. and Will..

You can see drugs as a tool, too. But then you create a "middle hand" between yourself and your Higher State, and at some point middle hands will limiting you.
So to me, a growth is when there is no middle hands, but you and What Is..
:)
I don't agree that buddhists tell you that your perceptions are wrong, but they will show you how they can be limited. Because we DO limit ourselves.. They want to reach a Buddha Mind, which is a No-Mind. To not put expectations on things but rather Be.. Not be so much "me me me" but a part of everything at all times.
Take away the Ignorance and the Selfishness to make room for Life in a "truer" sense, and a State of Being Enlighten at all times. Compassion..
That if we all believe in us being "vessels", then a No-Mind is not so far away but rather the same kind of understanding..

[ShackledEidolon]

What makes our senses REAL? Even what we see is the lack of color from an object. When I look at my blue jeans I am really seeing all the colors that the object reflected away from itself, the colors that it is not. My eyes send this information through another type of signal to various stages in the brain for analyzation and encoding...and ultimatly my brain creates an image from it....that image isnt really whats out there anymore then watching a Tool concert on video brings you there. Our perception can be tricked EASILY...if you turn upside down and look at a persons face it will take you a while to register who it is because our fusiform gyrus isnt being activated...these are very easy ways to show that what we "see" isn't really what is there. I cannot be sure that my perceptions are not hallucinations and therefore I cannot trust them (Descartes) ultimatlty there isnt a difference between waking and dreaming. We are living in worlds that we have constructed in our own minds. The only difference is that we do not feel the need to limit ourselves in our dreams.

Lucid dreaming is very interesting because of this. I have been able to have lucid dreams for some time now. I learned to induce them after many years of suffering from Awareness during sleep paralysis. In a Lucid dream you are capable of controlling your own actions and that of other things around you. You can set up experiments and watch them carried out, rewind, fastforward or pause. In short there aren't limitations on our mind. I've talked with important historical figures and spoken with 'imagined' creatures. Anything is possible...and suprsingly the information gathered from these dreams seems to coorelate with actual facts I was not aware of prior to these dreams. If perhaps the afterlife is an extended dream into eternity then becoming aware of the sleeping state would be your ability to become LUCID to have control. This I believe is at the center of the concept of conscious death...understanding not fearing that your identity is about to be destroyed and recreated. TO consciously die would be an escape from that constant repeating pattern....

I think that drugs force this upon you without the ability to understand the fear and without a way to regain this state...its kind of like riding in a car with a friend to a place you have never been. You don't really know how to get there but your there none the less and once you are taken home there is no way to get back. Meditation or Lucid dreaming is a way of finding the road...finding all the turns and learning the route. Once you have done this you can come and go as you please.

[okkoto]

Originally posted by Skye

Drugs can jump start you, give you glimpses but it will still vanish as you get sober, and you will either have to take /do some more to get to the same state again, or "start over" without drugs.. Merely because you jumped over some steps on the ladder using drugs, that you will not be able to grasp or understand all you see..


i think it's awesome you are able to reach elevated states using meditation, but i was just wondering if you have ever done any drugs? and i'm curious as to why you,as many people do, see drugs as a hinderance in this department. you say that you prefer to do it on your own, but isn't that contradicting the purpose? isn't that sort of an ego/control thing, when the purpose is to dissolve yourself and lose all control? maybe it's not for you but i'm sure it is for a couple of friends of mine.

there has to be some method to reach an elevated state, wether it be meditation or hallucinagens, but it's what you bring back with you that matters. everytime i trip the world is alittle bit different when i come back. and when you use drugs with the reverance they deserve, as a mindful respectful shaman, you will understand what you see and it will take you places, whether it's skipping steps or not, you are there. espeially for me when it's plant hallucinagens, peyote and mushrooms. ah the first time i did mushrooms and the thought of this tiny forest creature sleeping in my veins crossed my mind, what bliss!! sharing forest consciousness is an amazing thing.

drugs are the last great magic trick left in modern times.

[amp55]

I read a quote of Maynard's once that said something along the lines of taking the drug is good, but then you should spend the next ten years trying to get to that state on your own.

The mind state while on psychedelics is similar to the mind state of meditating. In fact the psychedelic DMT is produced within the pineal gland. DMT can be found in a large amount of animals and plants (although usually very small amounts). Dr. Rick Strassmann wrote a book about this. He also thinks that during meditation, near-death experiences, and other super stressful situations DMT is released. In his experiments the brain actually used precious resources to get the DMT that was injected into the patients as quickly as possible.

These sorts of drugs are produced in many plants (and animals) all over the world. If used correctly, drugs can be a very powerful tool to enlightenment (if used properly). An equal balance of both would seem best. It seems to me that psychedelics allow the user to experience a higher state of mind while interacting with the environment around them. Meditation allows you to just experience a higher state of mind internally.

Drugs may not be needed to reach a higher state, but since most of our minds have been programmed against such things because we’ve been brought up in this society it is hard for us to attain such a level on our own.

[ShackledEidolon]

I have read at some point that the center of the brain that is stimulated during religious revilry is the exact same center that is stimulated by hallucinogenics. Whether or not something truely exists, whether or not there is a true unity conciousness there is an actual center of the brain which handles this phenomena. In both religion and drug use the idea is to release control and allow some other force to guide or embrace you. Think about the notion of faith. We are expected to JUST believe and in giving up we may experience this ONEness. The use of drugs is a similar thing....just give up our hold on life and personal needs and desires. We give up and are wisked away to some magical place where we are no longer ourselves but we are certainly ONE with everything.

Maybe its just a response to terrible pain or fear as in the case of death or near death...maybe it is just a coping method and the ideas of heaven and hell are simply the NEAR deads brushes with this unity and their reaction to it...certainly those that were not ready for it would fear and resist letting go and feel nothing but fear. But those that let it happen would experience the beauty of ONEness.

At this point im losing focus and not having much luck refocusing so I will close

[Talescaper]

I am not sure what the highest state is. I do think that when you aquire it, you will be unable to return.
I have felt several things through two particular forms of meditation. Both inspired by tool songs.
The first is a certain method of breathing, which I found out when I was singing allong with the songs. I am quite sure the most of you heard of the term 'toolgasm' which describes the highest tension in a tool song. These parts require a lot of air. I felt a sort of force across my body (this would sound insane if it weren't for the idea that I think you believe me, because I can hardly imagine it happened). First around my face and later, as the state endured, fingers, hands, arms and legs. With this state, I felt an almost complete understanding of the lyrics. It felt like that. A feeling, not knowledge. It was quite hard to leave that almost fysical state.
The second is something I relate to the song 'Reflection'.
I went to a forest near my hometown at night and stood in front of a giant tree. In comparisation with me, trees are very large, solid and strong creatures. In comparisation with every human. So I started to observe the tree closely from a distance. Then I closed my eyes and imaged (I have a huge imagination) what it would be like to have roots that go deep into the earth. And after a while, I felt how that was. And I imagines what it would be like to be as high as a tree and with branches that would reach as far as the world. The experiance was very real and overwhelming. Like I could be 'one' with all the trees or every live.
I even felt a that would I open my eyes and look down, I would be several feet higher.
When I opened my eyes, every feeling like that was gone and a sense of euphoria remained.

I don't know what anyone would precisely mean by a higher state of conciousness as described in like Fourty-six and 2, but we can seek to experiance the ultimate and extrordanary. With or without chemicals. I prefer the latter though, personally.

[Smokin joe]

I dont think this song only refers to drugs. There are many who can achieve this without drugs, it comes with complete mental strength. There are buddhist monks who deprive themselves of much and attempt to reach ones inner self. They have a way to meditate themselves outside of their own consciousness. I'm not totally sure of anything I'm saying, but the point i'm trying to bring across is that this song is saying that anything as special as opening one's third eye must be a commitment that you cannot break utnil it's over.

As speaking as a somewhat experienced tripper, on mushrooms you can get pretty damn close, but you gotta know what you are doing. The first couple times i tripped I had no idea what was going on, i was a stupid little baby in a whole new world. After a couple trips you can then understand the true power and harness it. It's really a lot of fun to listen to the Reverand Maynard preach on some awesome deep lyrics.

joe

[pisceandelusions]

i totally agree that one should be able to learn to reach this state without the use of drugs, but also completely agree that these plants and other organic substances which allow us to "step" to that level of conciousness are there for us to benefit from. i have been personally trying to decipher all the bits and pieces of information for years now, within dreams, concious and unconcious thought and the like. i can only imagine that the third eye is the most beautiful feeling of enlightenment one's soul can achieve, i assume it is when we "know" and are "one" and the only time i've had that feeling was with lsd or mushrooms, but i have gotten close without since then and am diligently trying as i continue to pay attention to the clues in my dreams and other thoughts, out of body experiences, etc. i also had similar hallucinations, such as the repeating patterns, forseeing the future events, etc., as if i were going in and out of different concious timeframes and levels. very deep stuff, and now the most important thing in my mind to want to discover. so nice to know that tool, from where i get a lot of support on an emotional level, are on the same page and seeking similar beauties.

[LyingRealist]

I just thought of this,
In the song theres a bit where u hear in....out...in...out.
might just be me but i think its a clue.
isnt deep breathing used in meditation?

[adam_whiting]

the state of nirvana as described in this song is something that is very hard to achieve naturally. Zen monks would train their minds and spend weeks in a meditative state just so that they could experience what is described in this song.

however - anyone who has heard the salival version of this song would have heard the different soundbyte from the album version that includes a quote from a philosopher called Timothy Leary, who wrote at great length about this state: he claims that through all these years of training the monks would have to do for us there is an easier way - a sort of gateway to this state that comes in the form of LSD.

obviously if you are against drugs and want to experience what is described then i reccomend you spend a couple of decades in Tibet :)

Adam.

[Colicab]

Though this state is supposibly only achived through the form of LSD of as Adam sited spending a couple years in Tibet (ha ha). I think that this higher consience is just being at higher consience with yourself. Think For Yourself. Be one with who YOU are and not one with something else. Maybe that is what the higher state is. Being one with yourself.
When you think about LSd and what is said by Timothy Leary he talks alot about your mind and being in control. Thats what it is all about, it is about control and being oneself. I you are in control of your person and mind, why need the higher consience in form of drug? I am not against drug use at all, I myself have actually dabbled in the usuage of LSD in search of that higher consience. It helps to find it, but after you can access this higher consience (or what I perseive it to be) by just concentrating and centering yourself. As I said controlling your own mind.
'Third Eye' could also be percieved as a song about searching. Looking for yourself, thats what it means to me.
Maybe I'll pop a tab next time I listen to it.

[Stinkarm]

i think the only way to achieve that state is u would have to evolve twice. sounds stupid but thats what i think

[dissociation]

Originally posted by adam_whiting
obviously if you are against drugs and want to experience what is described then i reccomend you spend a couple of decades in Tibet :)

Adam.


hahaha...

there is absolutely nothing wrong with using psychoactives. when asked if he used psychoactives during a muchmusic interview, maynard simply replies "absolutely! absolutely."

it seems a lot of people are afraid of using drugs to reach this fabled "state." i don't understand why. it seems every one is choosing tool's side from the present (very spiritual, thus zen and what not are brought up) even though during the album's production, they weren't into all that as much. maynard has said that lateralus is a type of continuation from ænima. so obviously it's not a bad thing to use drugs. if tool can achieve this "state" now, then somehow drugs must've helped in the past. but this is just for those who are against drugs.

it's all right to meditate and what not, but taking drugs isn't the "easy path." it's a very intriguing process that educates you about yourself far more than simple meditation. but, both are all right, so don't argue back, damnit.

[rpulkys]

Just wanted to say how intriguing it is to read all these posts. Hell, I learned more from you guys than all my years in school. On my own personal stance though, I feel I will achieve this enlightenment when I die. Yes, I am afraid to use drugs (I have dabbled in the past and felt that it was too much - not at all natural). It is fear that holds me back, not fear of a bad trip or anything, but fear of hindering my own spiritual growth. React to this however, but I do believe in God and felt he put us here to learn certain things and 'evolve' so to speak - in the end we will 'move up' to these higher levels when we've truly earned them. Just my 2 cents.

[dissociation]

i don't believe in god, but at least you're not an asshole like others who do. very well-thought out post there. i won't judge it in any way, since it sucks to be judged for what you believe in.

[Dissonance]

I think if you are really trying to acheive this higher state (whatever that may be) drugs should be avoided. My reasoning?

Whatever people think drugs do, drugs typically screw with the natural order of your brain. Your neurons fire, send chemicals and electricity this way and that, etc. Drugs disrupt this process.

If you really want to acheive a TRUE higher consciousness, disrupting the natural consciousness seems the last thing you would want to do. Drugs make you think you've reach some new plateau, but remember, drugs jack up the way your brain was designed to work.

There is no truth to be found in drug trips. They FEEL strange and deep and fascinating, but thats only feeling. And ultimately it has to be false. If there is within us an evolving consciousness, it is rooted in our natural design. I believe in the soul and I believe in its Creator. I believe God gave us tremendous abilities in our minds. However, I believe we are designed in a special way. Our brains work in ways we will never understand. Disrupting the beautiful clockwork of our minds is simply not a viable source of something TRUE.

What do you all think about that?

[idiotic]

there is no true consciousness as we are all not real. if you want to reach true consciousness, kill yourself.

[idiotic]

uhm, re-reading this, i realized that this might be misinterperated as me meaning that you shouldn't try to achieve a higher consciousness, and then that you should kikll yourself if you felt the need to. i simply meant that the only "true" thing is death, so if you want to experience truth, then death is the ticket. however, i retract my suicide statement, as we'll all taste death eventually and so theres no reason to hurry it.

[rpulkys]

[i] There is no truth to be found in drug trips. They FEEL strange and deep and fascinating, but thats only feeling. And ultimately it has to be false. If there is within us an evolving consciousness, it is rooted in our natural design. I believe in the soul and I believe in its Creator. I believe God gave us tremendous abilities in our minds. However, I believe we are designed in a special way. Our brains work in ways we will never understand. Disrupting the beautiful clockwork of our minds is simply not a viable source of something TRUE. [/B]

My feelings, more or less. I agree that drugs present only a facade - though a trip may feel as real as ever, it is only in your chemically altered brain waves. It is good HOWEVER, if you can gain some new insight into whatever subject. Hell, drinking for me brings back old memories and helps me relfect on shit... but as for somekind of enlighntenment, its all in your heads - just my thoughts.

[Dissonance]

Originally posted by rpulkys


My feelings, more or less. I agree that drugs present only a facade - though a trip may feel as real as ever, it is only in your chemically altered brain waves. It is good HOWEVER, if you can gain some new insight into whatever subject. Hell, drinking for me brings back old memories and helps me relfect on shit... but as for somekind of enlighntenment, its all in your heads - just my thoughts.

Yeah i know what you mean... alcohol and marijuana (the very few times I did it) made me very reflective and introspective, but I dont want to be chemically inhibited when I am trying to search myself.

[spiralion]

Thats because you have just put poisons into your body and your body is freaking out and thinks it is actually dieing.

I got really fucked with some friends one night (I do a mean bong hit) and we ended up not doing what we were going to. For some reason I felt a little pressure on my forehead and I was like "Dude, what the fuck?" Call me crazy, but that is what happened. Note that I am on antidepressants and it may have and most likely boosted the effects of the leaves.

It is weird being in that state because I feel that this is the only moment and what just happened dosen't mean a thing and figure I will remember it later and just let it happen. It is funny the thoughts I come up with when I am fucked up. I remember thinking that I am in a state where all of my senses were being crossed over and all of me was becoming one (if you got what I am saying, if that dosen't sound too crazy.) I suggest getting fucked up, but don't smoke yourself stupid. The only thing I will do to get fucked up is weed unless I get ahold of some PURE lsd, which is most likely not going to happen.

And if you think about it, the concious part of your brain is the frontal lobe.

Just remember to stay calm and have somewhere there to take you to the hospital if you start puking up green blood( unless they are triping too)

One last thing is that I have noticed that in music I notice that drums and things in the background (reverbed and/or delayed) seem to stand out.

[EuphoricBlue]

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php3?ID=11236



Just someone perspective on shrooms and TooL

Blue

[Spoon]

Just thought I would say, that you don't "trip" on marijuana....it's not at all like magic mushrooms or LSD. The effects are entirely different and I, personally at least, do not consider smoking pot to be tripping. Dis/Agree?

[Tully]

I once read that maynards feeling on drugs is that you take the trip once to help you experience the high, then after that its up to you to match that high natuarally.

[AtheistAlliance]

I always thought this song was about opening your eyes to Atheistism. bah

[WrpdConscience]

Well I believe that this state of enlightenment could be attained if you had 100% control of your brain and no subconscious thought. Wether that could ever happen or if it would take drugs I have no idea.
As far as the posts I've read on this thread regarding all drugs as bad and all of them as disrupting the brains activities. That's not completely true some do but drugs don't all have the same affects. I was reminded of those TV adds that claim buying drugs and smoking pot will support murder/terrorism/rape. That's oversimplifying it big time. I don't believe everyone should take drugs, but I don't believe a person should worry about horrendous brain damage from 1 acid trip. I believe some drugs can open up parts of the brain we don't use in everday life (we supposedly only use about 10% of it. I don't know if that includes the parts of the brain that run involuntary actions, the subconsious, etc.) although it may be at the expense of limited damage to other parts of the brain or body.

[demiurge]

I think that the media and culture have put a very negative spin on psychoactive drugs that has rubbed off on even the most liberal of us. This thread has done well to point out the negative aspects of phychoactive drugs, but not a single person has mentioned the similar "negative" effects of heavy meditation and achieving enlightenment through "natural" means.

I personally believe many psychoactive drugs to be very safe if used properly within a safe environment. It is almost impossible to OD or cause any permanent damage with Shrooms if you take the necessary precautions. I also do not believe the state achieved by drugs to be any more artificial. Just because meditation takes more discipline doesn't mean the place it takes your mind is any more real than with drugs. Shahman have used organic substances such as ayahuasca, shrooms, santo damingo, peyote, and salvia to achieve divine states for centuries and it was never considered a shortcut by them.

Meditation and prayer are not necessarily a more natural or better way either. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, meditation and prayer are quite fabricated systems that took centuries to develop and perfect. And they are far from harmless! If you think drugs can fuck up your natural brain chemistry then don't even start with spiritual practices, many of which if poorly practiced can totally fuck up your nervous system. I know a girl whole made her self physically ill for days from practicing too advanced Yoga techniques, and any real Thai Chi instructor will warn new students of The psychological and neurological dangers of the art. Hell some of the most spiritually enlightened people I know (I've known a few sufis who have devoted most of their lives to spiritual practice) are some of the most insane and socially disconected people I know. They remind me quite a bit of the people I've met who have totally fucked up their heads with too much acid. The similarities are astounding sometimes.

What is wrong with the enlightened state produced by drugs? People say that it's not the same as a truly enlightened state because you know it's the drugs that are making you hallucinate. Well what do you think is happening to your brain when you meditate: You are ALTERING the state of your mind to produce similar hallucinagenic states.

For the average person drugs have far fewer consequences if used properly. With the exception of LSD ,most hallucinogens will not PERMANENTLY alter your state of mind. You trip. It's over. You remember it, but you can't normally get back. This is what is so great about drugs! They allow us to have incredible spiritual experiences, but afterwards we can still fully participate in this crazy, reductionistic, fast-paced, anti-spiritual world of ours.

Now for some of us, this is the exactly the problem. Some of us don't want to lose that state of conciousness, and that's why they feel meditation or prayer is the answer. But beware, if you are so concerned with the psychological or socialogical consequences associated with drugs then don't even think about trying to achieve similar enlightenment through spiritual practice because the changes your mind and entire identity will go through will be far more severe and long lasting than anything a drug could do. Prepare for at least some level of social alienation. Some people may even consider you to be "crazy".

I don't have anything against acheiving higher states of consciousness through meditation or prayer. I just think that the subject has been taken too lightly and looked at in too totally positive of a light when compared to drugs.

Personally, I feel that neither processes, drugs or practice, actually "show you another world". I feel it's all about unlearning. From the moment we are born, our reality is being constructed and higher states of conciousness are about tearing apart that foundation. When you fuck with your mind, you bring yourself closer to the moment of birth and death, to creation and destruction. This can be very helpful when one gets too attached to life as we all do. Creation attaches itself to our bodies like hooks in our skin, but removing those hooks can be very painful. Once one becomes involved in spiritual practice it may be impossible to put them back on. Whether it's drugs or meditation, be careful. Human consciousness should be taken seriously. But in light of this, I would have to say drugs are far safer and not any less natural.

[Adrian]

Some insight:
Check out
www.erowid.org
Read up on Dextramethoraphan (DXM)...or Ketamine.
With dissociative hallucinogens one can reach 'Third Eye Space' on the upper plateaus.

This can also be reached with extremely well trained and focused meditation.

As for the song, I believe it is inspired by such states. As the length, progression and ultiamte climax of all instruments and words tend to fit the description of traveling through the plateaus; ultimatly to the upper echelons that is complete inverted conciousness.

[tritonofthesea]

I was wondering if anyone could recommend any good reading on the subject of achieving this higher state of mind without drugs or something along those lines?