Saturn ascends

[g-bay-be]

"Saturn would be "rising", crossing the Ascendant horizon....

passing from darkness to the day. Saturn is considered a karmic planet by many astrologers....if you don't learn its lessons, you will just have to keep trying. Saturn represents Father Time. It has had a reputation as a "malefic"--pain, restriction, discipline, the taskmaster.

More recent work by Liz Greene says that the process of handling all this sort of stuff with honesty, can offer greater consciousness, self-understanding and freedom. In other words, if you deal with the crap Saturn puts in front of you, you can use it to further your journey of self-discovery and wind up in the light."


"This is something i found when i put saturn ascend into a web search"

[987]

Don't take my word for it, but half a year ago or so I looked into this and I believe I found out that the color given to Saturn is green. Green represents envy. The color green's tone is also the one used most in The Grudge.

[AllforUnity]

Agreed.

[fathomthepower]

i'm home for christmas break and was digging through some of my dad's books on psychology(he is REALLY into Jung). so i'm reading this book called ALCHEMY by Marie-Louise von Franz, who is apparently one of the most famous followers of Jung. I highly reccomend this book to anybody interested in getting a pretty straight forward explanation of some of the most notable themes in alchemy. this passage caught my attention:

"In the knowledge of late antiquity lead was the metal of the planet Saturn and had the same qualities: on the NEGATIVE[capitalization mine] side, depression, and positively, creative depression. Saturn is the god of mutilated people, criminals, and cripples, but also of artistic and creative people. In our modern language that would mean the strange quality in certain depressions in which one feels literally like lead. . .In a heavy depression one feels unable to get up from one's chair, or even open one's mouth to explain that one is depressed; one just sits like a block of heavy matter.

As the word implies, in a depression the person is pressed down, compressed, usually because a part of the psychological libido is below and has to be fetched up; the real energy of life has fallen into a deeper layer of the personality and can only be reached through a depression. So unless there is a latent psychosis, a depression should be encouraged and people told to go into it and be depressed--not try to escape by the radio or the Reader's Digest--and if the depression says that life means nothing and that nothing is worthwhile, then accept that and say what about it? Listen, go deeper and deeper, until you again reach the level of the psychological energy where some creative idea can come out and suddenly, at the bottom, and impulse of life and creativeness which has been overlooked may appear."

i'll post some of my thoughts on this later, but wanted to see what you guys thought about this.

[drummer4life2020]

I dont know if this will help anyone...but I was talking about TOOL and what-not with a friend at the mall and the converstation was turned to the topic of saturn ascending.
When I asked him, "What does saturn ascending mean anyway?"
He quickly spat, "It means end of days...apocalypse or the end of the world."

---

Taking this into effect...I read over the lyrics of The Grudge and came to this conclusion...

From what I know from some blind sheep (oops I mean Christians) is that when the Judgement Day arrives...all the true Christians will ascend into Heaven, leaving the sinners to stay for seven years to reconcile and what not. The name of the actual happening escapes me at the moment, but they made a HORRIBLE, BADLY MADE cheap peice of dog shit movie out of it. The name of the movie also escapes me. Fuck it.

Anyway...the lyrics go like this...

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

-------

Clutch what? Possilbly your beliefs? Cornestones? The foundation of your being...your soul...

Justifying denials? Cling (or clutch) to false faiths (but comforting faiths) and make up stories and search for coincidance for things that go on that cannot be explained. (Indians did this when trying to understand the rain or wind or anything of that nature...no pun intendid)

Terrified of being wrong? In today's society...people are known to ostracise peers for beliefs. Stuck, Ultimatum prison cell.

and last, but certainly...well last...

Saturn ascends...(end of world)...choose one or ten????!!

AAhh!

Maybe in referance to...The Ten Commandments. Which to choose....How must I perform in everyday life....

shit...Im too tired.

g'night

[FreeYourself]

I dont know if this will help anyone...but I was talking about TOOL and what-not with a friend at the mall and the converstation was turned to the topic of saturn ascending.
When I asked him, "What does saturn ascending mean anyway?"
He quickly spat, "It means end of days...apocalypse or the end of the world."

---

Taking this into effect...I read over the lyrics of The Grudge and came to this conclusion...

From what I know from some blind sheep (oops I mean Christians) is that when the Judgement Day arrives...all the true Christians will ascend into Heaven, leaving the sinners to stay for seven years to reconcile and what not. The name of the actual happening escapes me at the moment, but they made a HORRIBLE, BADLY MADE cheap peice of dog shit movie out of it. The name of the movie also escapes me. Fuck it.

Anyway...the lyrics go like this...

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

-------

Clutch what? Possilbly your beliefs? Cornestones? The foundation of your being...your soul...

Justifying denials? Cling (or clutch) to false faiths (but comforting faiths) and make up stories and search for coincidance for things that go on that cannot be explained. (Indians did this when trying to understand the rain or wind or anything of that nature...no pun intendid)

Terrified of being wrong? In today's society...people are known to ostracise peers for beliefs. Stuck, Ultimatum prison cell.

and last, but certainly...well last...

Saturn ascends...(end of world)...choose one or ten????!!

AAhh!

Maybe in referance to...The Ten Commandments. Which to choose....How must I perform in everyday life....

shit...Im too tired.

g'night

Are you ever going to finish that?

[CopperGoat]

I think "choose one or ten" means that you have to choose from one extreme to another, and never anything in between, no grey area.

[3rdEyeThinker]

It might have something to do with what's called a "Saturn Return" which happens approximately every 29 years. When u r born, Satun is at a fixed postion in it's orbit.....when it 'comes back around' u go through a reflective period in your life.....At 29 u realize that u are no longer 'young' and u have to face adult life.....Then at 58 u realize that u r getting older and that your life is slowly coming to a close......It's not usually a very nice time......but it's a period in your life that u can grow from ......hope this helps........

ps-----how old is maynard?

[Sgt. Sassafrass]

ps-----how old is maynard?

39, goin on 40 (in April). Damn, he's gettin old. I wonder how long that scream's gonna last him...

[g-bay-be]

39, goin on 40 (in April). Damn, he's gettin old. I wonder how long that scream's gonna last him...


Hey Jerry rice is still playing football. Aero smith is still doing the super bowl I'm sure MJK can scream his heart out for another 10 years

[987]

i'm home for christmas break and was digging through some of my dad's books on psychology(he is REALLY into Jung). so i'm reading this book called ALCHEMY by Marie-Louise von Franz, who is apparently one of the most famous followers of Jung. I highly reccomend this book to anybody interested in getting a pretty straight forward explanation of some of the most notable themes in alchemy. this passage caught my attention:

"In the knowledge of late antiquity lead was the metal of the planet Saturn and had the same qualities: on the NEGATIVE[capitalization mine] side, depression, and positively, creative depression. Saturn is the god of mutilated people, criminals, and cripples, but also of artistic and creative people. In our modern language that would mean the strange quality in certain depressions in which one feels literally like lead. . .In a heavy depression one feels unable to get up from one's chair, or even open one's mouth to explain that one is depressed; one just sits like a block of heavy matter.

As the word implies, in a depression the person is pressed down, compressed, usually because a part of the psychological libido is below and has to be fetched up; the real energy of life has fallen into a deeper layer of the personality and can only be reached through a depression. So unless there is a latent psychosis, a depression should be encouraged and people told to go into it and be depressed--not try to escape by the radio or the Reader's Digest--and if the depression says that life means nothing and that nothing is worthwhile, then accept that and say what about it? Listen, go deeper and deeper, until you again reach the level of the psychological energy where some creative idea can come out and suddenly, at the bottom, and impulse of life and creativeness which has been overlooked may appear."

i'll post some of my thoughts on this later, but wanted to see what you guys thought about this.


Very, very interesting. Looking forward to see your thoughts on it.

[findmyself]

does anyone else notice how all these posts seem to be related, not because they are about The Grudge, but theories each have all seem to tie into one another/something larger, maybe. any thoughts?

[audioslave1]

Saturn, the sixth planet away from the Sun is the second largest planet in the Solar System at 74,600 miles in diameter (120,000 kilometers). It takes 29 ½ years to orbit the Sun. Saturn has 12 moons, the largest of which is Titan. It is encircled by rings which are actually particles of ice and rock.

In Babylon he was called Ninib and was an agricultural deity. Saturn, called Cronus by the Greeks, was, at the dawn of the Ages of the Gods, the Protector and Sower of the Seed and his wife, Rhea, (called Ops by the Romans) was a Harvest Helper. Cronus was one of the the Seven Titans or Numina and with them, reigned supreme in the Universe. The Titans were of incredible size and strength and held power for untold ages, until they were deposed by Zeus.

The first inhabitants of the world were the children of Gaia (Mother Earth) and Ouranos (Father Sky). These creatures were very large and manlike, but without human qualities. They were the qualities of Earthquake, Hurricane and Volcano living in a world where there was yet no life. There were only the irresistible forces of nature creating mountains and seas. They were unlike any life form known to man.

Three of these creatures were monstrously huge with one hundred hands and fifty heads. Three others were individually called Cyclops, because each had only one enormous eye in the middle of their foreheads. Then, there were the Titans, seven of them, formidably large and none of whom were purely destructive. One was actually credited with saving man after creation.

Ouranos hated the children with the fifty heads. As each were born he placed them under the earth. Gaia was enraged by the treatment of her children by their father and begged the Cyclopes and the Titans to help her put an end to the cruel treatment. Only the Titan, Cronus, responded. Cronus lay in wait for his father and castrated him with his sickle. From Ouranos's blood sprang the Giants, a fourth race of monsters, and the Erinyes (the Furies), whose purpose was to punish sinners. They were referred to as "those who walk in darkness" and were believed to have writhing snakes for hair and eyes that cried blood. Though eventually all the monsters were driven from Earth, the Erinyes are to remain until the world is free of sin.

With the deposing of his father, Cronus/Saturn became the ruler of the Universe for untold ages and he reigned with his sister, Rhea/Ops, who also became his wife.

It was prophesied that one day Cronus would lose power when one of his children would depose him. To prevent this from happening, each time Rhea delivered a child Cronus would immediately swallow them. When her sixth child, Zeus, was born, Rhea had him spirited away to the island of Crete. She then wrapped a stone in his swaddling clothes. Her deception was complete when Cronus swallowed it, thinking it was the child. When Zeus was grown, he secured the job of cup-bearer to his father. With the help of Gaia, his grandmother, Zeus fed his father a potion that caused him to vomit up Zeus's five siblings, Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades and Poseidon.

[audioslave1]

Saturn, therefore, represents our limitations in power and control {by his rulership and its coming to an end), in confinement or isolation (by his banishment to Tartarus) and capacity (as Saturn's placement as a planet, which until modern times was the boundary of our Solar System). Taking all this into consideration, it is no wonder we face difficulty when attempting to transform Saturn from a controlling force to a teaching force because we encounter all our limitations in every aspect of our lives.

Saturn represents our limitations, our restrictions,yet it is also our inner mentor and teacher. His lessons are manifested only over time, after which we go through inner rebirth and enjoy spiritual growth. The times these life changing events can occur are usually when Saturn returns and testing takes place within different disciplines. Saturn returns every 29 ½ years with appearances at age 29, when we face the discipline of maturity; at 58, when we face the discipline of acceptance and wisdom; and at 87, few people make it to the third return. However, coming in right behind a Uranus return, it is without a doubt, a profound event.

[munkcus]

you know its awesome where you find inspiration... i suppose this forum would be a likely place... anyhoo, im doing a report on this kind of thing actually.... and this is just the info i need... but i was wondering if you guys could clear something up for me.... im new to this quote thing so i hope i do it right....


"In the knowledge of late antiquity lead was the metal of the planet Saturn and had the same qualities: on the NEGATIVE[capitalization mine] side, depression, and positively, creative depression.

now what does it mean with in the 'knowledge of late antiquity'? is she talking about it being from ancient astrologer/alchemist scholars or what? and also what does it mean by lead having depression on the negative side? is it reffering to that quality being on the negatively charged pole?



Saturn is the god of mutilated people, criminals, and cripples, but also of artistic and creative people..

now ive tried to do research on the net but it seems like all artistic references on planets go to venus or jupiter.... so not knowing a bunch about astrology i cant be sure how accurate that is.... also is saturn being the god of these people a zodiac thing or what?

i know that you guys didnt write that and im probably taking alot of it out of context but i hope someone can shed some light on it... im doing a college project on this kind of thing so any info would be great... thanks alot...

[sdrawkcab]

Seems like this song is about the perils that Tool had to go through as a band; all the different problems that arise in an individual and even moreso in a group of individuals.
When "Saturn Ascends.." it means that Saturn, which represents work and progress is coming to the light of a new day. To "Choose One or Ten" refers to houses that an astrological map consists of: 1-12.
Saturn rules the tenth house and the idea is that when Saturn is in its stage of ascendence there arises the choice in front of an individual, which is whether or not to choose One and start over again with new things, or go back to Ten and live through all the problems again, never really learning anything.
By going back to 10 we wallow in the guilt and suffering that Saturn is actually utilizing to teach us in the long run and we continue to hold grudges and remain "ignorant to the damage done...". When we accept all the new things that have come along and do our best to see past our own layers of waste below us then Saturn ..".spits you out like a child white and innocent..." and the grudges are transmuted into Gold.
Of course this is just my personal interpretation of the art. My knowledge of these things is limited, so if there's anyone out there with deeper understanding then please clear anything up that could be misinforming to anyone else.

[Tantobourne]

Just reposting shit that's already been posted... (http://toolshed.down.net/articles/text/aggro.may.2001.html)


"AA: What are some of the various themes you’re exploring on this
album?

MJK: Definitely the majority of the record is about re-communication,
about understanding where you are in reference to where you’ve been
and where you’re going. It’s the process of letting go of old baggage
and the evaluation of your place. If you’re into astrology or any of
that kind of stuff, there’s a process called the Saturn Return--your
30-year cycle. It’s something like a mid-life crisis, where you step
back and reevaluate.

AA: This is on a personal level or band level?

MJK: I think we all have, you know? The Saturn Return—I’m not that
fluent in astrology or hocus pocus—but it’s a 28-30 year cycle where
when you’re born Saturn is in one position and it takes approximately
29 years to come all the way back around. It just so happens that it
coincides with the majority of people’s reevaluation of their lives.
It’s kind of a traumatic time, because you’re trying to figure out
who you are and what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years, and
recognizing patterns. Like, “Why do I keep ending up with these same
people in my life?”—that kind of stuff. Also, for the most part most
of your favorite records are the first three records of a band’s
career. So, here we are on our fourth record. Do we evolve past where
we came from and make it better, or do we fall under the same pattern
that all of our peers have and make the disappointing fourth record?"

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

I think "choose one or ten" means that you have to choose from one extreme to another, and never anything in between, no grey area.

Damn good idea, like the 1-10 rating scale... Never thought of it that way. Maybe it has to choose with the judgement; there can't be any place of in between, you get heaven or hell(err, Earth for 7 more years???). Maybe it means when Saturn ascends, the judgement must be made, whether it be Sinner or Christian. This was another opinion pulled straight from my ass. Thank you, g'night.

Curry

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Oh and if Maynard(my bad, God) ever visits this site, I have this to say: "Holy SHIT no!! Lateralus is my favorite album, alongside with Ænima, then Undertow. Tool can't make a 'dissappointing CD'. Oh also, you better not fucking quit, work until you die, just keep your voice in good shape :) take those pills."

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Seems like this song is about the perils that Tool had to go through as a band; all the different problems that arise in an individual and even moreso in a group of individuals.
When "Saturn Ascends.." it means that Saturn, which represents work and progress is coming to the light of a new day. To "Choose One or Ten" refers to houses that an astrological map consists of: 1-12.
Saturn rules the tenth house and the idea is that when Saturn is in its stage of ascendence there arises the choice in front of an individual, which is whether or not to choose One and start over again with new things, or go back to Ten and live through all the problems again, never really learning anything.
By going back to 10 we wallow in the guilt and suffering that Saturn is actually utilizing to teach us in the long run and we continue to hold grudges and remain "ignorant to the damage done...". When we accept all the new things that have come along and do our best to see past our own layers of waste below us then Saturn ..".spits you out like a child white and innocent..." and the grudges are transmuted into Gold.
Of course this is just my personal interpretation of the art. My knowledge of these things is limited, so if there's anyone out there with deeper understanding then please clear anything up that could be misinforming to anyone else.


That shot my above theory to hell. I'm not a very good opinionator :), hell, I even make my own words up.

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Oh, I know this is totally random also, but I wanna just let this little gem go... Alchemy is about turning sheet metal into gold (probably by rearranging the protons, like adding 1 to lead), even if they are successful; we'd just have to use a different currency...thing. yeah...

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Hmm... to the post about 1-12.. I guess this song is about choosing whether to rise forth, or to sulk(?) It seems as if he's telling us to choose what we are going to do; never let anything go, or to become white and innocent by forgiving and forgetting

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Another random thing; the part near the end of The Grudge where they go all out, (As Chris Farley would say) "That was awesome."

[ÆnimaticEnigma]

Hey Jerry rice is still playing football. Aero smith is still doing the super bowl I'm sure MJK can scream his heart out for another 10 years

Maybe so, but 10 years is too short; I hope to uhh... you? that they all have the scientists they hate produce clones of them and put them in the exact same environment. :P ToolClones. Or just get some band to be exactly like them, although thats barely short of impossible. Long Live Tool.

[pops333]

Just reposting shit that's already been posted... (http://toolshed.down.net/articles/text/aggro.may.2001.html)



MJK: I think we all have, you know? The Saturn Return—I’m not that
fluent in astrology or hocus pocus—but it’s a 28-30 year cycle where
when you’re born Saturn is in one position and it takes approximately
29 years to come all the way back around. It just so happens that it
coincides with the majority of people’s reevaluation of their lives.
It’s kind of a traumatic time, because you’re trying to figure out
who you are and what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years, and
recognizing patterns. Like, “Why do I keep ending up with these same
people in my life?”—that kind of stuff. Also, for the most part most
of your favorite records are the first three records of a band’s
career. So, here we are on our fourth record. Do we evolve past where
we came from and make it better, or do we fall under the same pattern
that all of our peers have and make the disappointing fourth record?"



I think thats the whole point of this song. Especially the lyrics:
"Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent."

You reach that point of self reflection, and you start to reevaluate the choices you've made. Its going to be hard, but when you fianllyget trhough it, you're going to be a better person. I think maybe some people on this forum forget that Maynard and the rest of the band are totally human. They suffer and have crisis like you and I. Patr of the reason they try to remain anonymous is so that their fans can keep that in mind.

[hoodling1229]

I'm short on time and didn't have time to read all of the posts, so sorry if this has already been posted. If you look on http://www.astromandir.com/cycle.html, you will see that "Saturn is the Judgment giver. He is the hard task master. It makes one pay for one's wrong deeds." My take is that you shouldn't be ashamed to be angry at people and hold grudges. Saturn represents authority. This is all that I've had time to think about so far, and it's just my opinion. I'll think more later.

[g-bay-be]

Maybe so, but 10 years is too short; I hope to uhh... you? that they all have the scientists they hate produce clones of them and put them in the exact same environment. :P ToolClones. Or just get some band to be exactly like them, although thats barely short of impossible. Long Live Tool.


man I hope MJK is singing when i am his age. only 20 or so more years

[AllforUnity]

Yeah, you know, he'll only be about 60.

[anotherPieceOfThePuzzle]

Seems like this song is about the perils that Tool had to go through as a band; all the different problems that arise in an individual and even moreso in a group of individuals.
When "Saturn Ascends.." it means that Saturn, which represents work and progress is coming to the light of a new day. To "Choose One or Ten" refers to houses that an astrological map consists of: 1-12.
Saturn rules the tenth house and the idea is that when Saturn is in its stage of ascendence there arises the choice in front of an individual, which is whether or not to choose One and start over again with new things, or go back to Ten and live through all the problems again, never really learning anything.
By going back to 10 we wallow in the guilt and suffering that Saturn is actually utilizing to teach us in the long run and we continue to hold grudges and remain "ignorant to the damage done...". When we accept all the new things that have come along and do our best to see past our own layers of waste below us then Saturn ..".spits you out like a child white and innocent..." and the grudges are transmuted into Gold.
Of course this is just my personal interpretation of the art. My knowledge of these things is limited, so if there's anyone out there with deeper understanding then please clear anything up that could be misinforming to anyone else.


Yeah exactly ! Some very interesting viewpoints here, but I relate to this one. Thanks for explaining the "1 or 10" phrase. Your interpretation sure makes sense.
This particular song is definetely about letting go of negative feelings (grudges duh). The whole album is about ascension imo.

[Triangular_Vision]

I dont know if this will help anyone...but I was talking about TOOL and what-not with a friend at the mall and the converstation was turned to the topic of saturn ascending.
When I asked him, "What does saturn ascending mean anyway?"
He quickly spat, "It means end of days...apocalypse or the end of the world."

---

Taking this into effect...I read over the lyrics of The Grudge and came to this conclusion...

From what I know from some blind sheep (oops I mean Christians) is that when the Judgement Day arrives...all the true Christians will ascend into Heaven, leaving the sinners to stay for seven years to reconcile and what not. The name of the actual happening escapes me at the moment, but they made a HORRIBLE, BADLY MADE cheap peice of dog shit movie out of it. The name of the movie also escapes me. Fuck it.

Anyway...the lyrics go like this...

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

-------

Clutch what? Possilbly your beliefs? Cornestones? The foundation of your being...your soul...

Justifying denials? Cling (or clutch) to false faiths (but comforting faiths) and make up stories and search for coincidance for things that go on that cannot be explained. (Indians did this when trying to understand the rain or wind or anything of that nature...no pun intendid)

Terrified of being wrong? In today's society...people are known to ostracise peers for beliefs. Stuck, Ultimatum prison cell.

and last, but certainly...well last...

Saturn ascends...(end of world)...choose one or ten????!!

AAhh!

Maybe in referance to...The Ten Commandments. Which to choose....How must I perform in everyday life....

shit...Im too tired.

g'night

beautiful post!

1 or 10... they are both end up in the same place if u look at it that way ;) (all one mind)

[exojjl]

(1+6+3=10 = “Saturn Ascends, choose 1 or 10” = tension )

[TheSnakeBehindYou]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantobourne
Just reposting shit that's already been posted...



MJK: I think we all have, you know? The Saturn Return—I’m not that
fluent in astrology or hocus pocus—but it’s a 28-30 year cycle where
when you’re born Saturn is in one position and it takes approximately
29 years to come all the way back around. It just so happens that it
coincides with the majority of people’s reevaluation of their lives.
It’s kind of a traumatic time, because you’re trying to figure out
who you are and what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years, and
recognizing patterns. Like, “Why do I keep ending up with these same
people in my life?”—that kind of stuff. ....



kinda what maynards talkin about here can give you insight to the song...its not really saying that its about astrology or anything...i mean to a point it is but i think the song is mostly about just giving up the grudge...at that reevaluation point in your life you just need to let go because life's too short....also somewhere i read that maynard said that most people dont get to go through the 3rd cycle so you should just give it up and live life while you can...i have more to say i just dont know how to say it....i'll post later