"The Grudge" explained

[Slave#1]

"The Grudge" is a very well designed musical piece that can have a lot of different meenings but, I'll try and focus on the one that tool probably ment for it to have.

Before you go off and try to interpret this song, you have to first look at what TOOL has gone through over the past 4 years. They have been bogged down with a lawsuit and MJK going off to work with "A perfect Circle."

With that said, here is my breakdown of what "The Grudge" meens:

"The Grudge" may seem very hard to understand at first, but after listening to it for a while I started to realize what it was all about. TOOL has been under A LOT of stress over the past couple of years, and after all of that, they decided to write a song about their troubles. That song came out in the form of the eight minute and thirt five second song called "The Grudge."

-Intro explained-

"Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity. Calculate what we will and will not tolerate. Desperate to control all and everything, unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen."

This is pretty much straight forward...atleast, if your not stupid. When a person is engulfed in a grudge, they are usually so judgemental about EVERTHING. For those of you who don't know what a "scarlet letterman" is, this might take away some of that confusion. The book "The scarlet letter" is all about colonial times and how society was strict on having children out of wedlock. When a couple had a child out of wedlock, they would have to wear a letter on their clothing so everyone would know what they did, hence, the term scarlet letterman. You could also take that analisys further and say that MJK could also be referring to the Scarlet fever...but I highly doubt that. I guess tool has been branded in someway as a band that is "not easy to get along with"...maybe thats their scarlet letter? who knows.

-First Verse explained-

"Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip em' to the lonsome end. Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down. Terrified of being wrong, ultimatum prison cell."

"The Grudge" takes you on a journy following the formation of a grudge all the way to the final "letting go" so to speak. First, those who have talked about what a "Cornerstone" is are on target. A cornerstone is the first brick that is laid when building a new structure. So, when looking at what a cornerstone is in relation to a grudge, one would have to come to the realization that if someone is holding a grudge, they are holding onto the cornerstone, and are not willing to let go of it. The cornerstone is the thing that made them have the grudge in the first place, or the flame that started the fire so to speak.

-First Chorus explained-

"Saturn acends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again."

If I remember correctly, MJK has posted what this part of the song ment already. MJK said something like "Astrology suggests that the term "saturn acending" refers to the time in everones live when they reach their Mid life crisis. When you are born, Saturn is at a fixed point in the cosmos, and when you reach a certain age, saturn acends to that same fixed place once more. Strange things have happened to people who are undergoing their mid life crisis." This is true. People usually start of have their "second childhood" during their mid life crisis. "Choose one or ten" refers to the time in everyones life when they must make a huge decision that will make or break their future. If ou don't make the right choice then, as the lyrics say, you will be "Humbled again."

-Second Verse explained-

"Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip em' to the lonsome end! Saturn asends. Come's round' again. Saturn asends! The one the ten, ignorant to the damage done!"

Since most of that should already make sence now, I will explain once more about how "Come's round again" is singifigant to the song. When you are born, Saturn is in a fixed place in the sky, and when you reach your mid life crisis, "saturn asends and comes round' again" to that same fixed place once more. Saturn being ingnorant to the damage done doesn't realize how much trouble it has caused in coming back around to that fixed place in the sky. 0_o blarg

-bridge explained-

"Give away the stone, let the ocean take and transmutate this gold inflated anger. Give away the stone, let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold!"

"Give away the stone" is probably another way to say that a person is actually starting to realize how stupid holding a grudge really is. A person who has decided to "give away the stone" has finally come to their sences and realized that the grudge is the only thing in life.

-The growl explained-

"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" (for 20 seconds)

This is what someone does when they can't take it any longer. They crack. Maynard probably cracked during the lawsuit a couple of times. I know I would have!

-Outro explained-

"Let go"

"The Grudge" is coming to an end. This is the part of the journy where the person has finally come to their sences and realized that it is easy to make up and go on without the grudge there to rule their life for them.

-Outro-

"The Climax" drum solo as Danny Carey likes to call it is the bistering outro to a great song that keeps getting better and better with each spin.

I hope this has cleared up some confusion about "The Grudge."

I would also like to point out that TOOL is a BIG JOKE. You should take the lyrics with a "GRAIN OF SALT." We should all stop looking so far into one song for its meaning and start just listening to the music for pure enjoyment.

Bryan

[Christopher]

"I would also like to point out that TOOL is a BIG JOKE. You should take the lyrics with a "GRAIN OF SALT." We should all stop looking so far into one song for its meaning and start just listening to the music for pure enjoyment. "

one of the reasons i like Tool is that i can go so far into Maynard's lyrics, and learn new things.

[LateralUndertow]

I agree with christofer. I like looking into the lyrics and learning from them. Maynard is a very smart man and one can learn a much from him.

[a_divine_martyr]

the scream where he goes "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" he really goes, "let goooooooooooooooooooooooooo" for 25 or some odd seconds. and don't write a long ass post if yer gunna say TOOL is a big joke.... stupid fucktard :o)

the scream is really a nice reminder of maynard's vocal talents to me :o\

[Slave#1]

I'm sorry that you don't like my summary.

I've never seen where the screams was indeed "let go" instead of "AHHH."

I believe I can post anything I wish in my own posts.

My blip about how TOOL shouldn't be analized so much is just my opinion.

Stop posting if your just gonna criticize what I typed up.

I doesn't help anything.

[paraflux]

Criticism is key for growth. If we refuse to listen and even attack others for having something slightly different to say, then we lose out. Keeping yourself open is key. I have already had my mind turned a couple of times on this board, and I am very happy about it. I never think my interpretation is the end-all, be-all of interpretations. I do not think I am the only one who knows what the shit is about, and am willing to discuss instead of berate.
Try this for the choose one or ten. On the Salival box cover there is the tree of Sephirot, or tree of life. It is the 10 circles interconnected. These could represent the different stages or dimensions. Notice they are superimposed over the body of the outstretched arm man under the cover. You could choose one and be the base of man, or you could choose ten and be all that man can possibly be.

[paraflux]

however, calling someone a stupid fucktard is hardly the way to criticize.

[desert_fly]

the whole scarlet letterman reminds me of the red badge of courage by nate hawthorne. in the book, the red badge is simply a gunshot wound which serves as proof of your courage in battle. but what it seems like to me is that it is really just proof that you hold some minor grudge against those men on the other side of the field, men who you hate so much because of your grudge, that you would kill without seeing as people.
secondly, it sounds to me like the lyrics go, (and this is also how they are posted on the official tool site) "give away the stone, let the oceans take and trasmutate this.cold and faded anchor " not gold inflated anger. this seems to work better with the whole cornerstone metaphor. the anchor or cornerstone on which you base your grudge is by this time so faded out by the intense and blinding feelings spawned from it. it also seems like the kind of words maynard would use rather than inflated anger. but thanks alot for the saturn assention interpretation. anyway thats my spiel

[paraflux]

I think it's actually "cold and FATED anchor..."
which would men that its already determined that the grudge is fated to sink the person holding it. So let it go.
But faded works for you, so that's fine! :-)

[Slave#1]

it does infact say:

"Give away the stone.
Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
Give away the stone.
Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold."

I didn't look at the lyrics enough before I started typing this post.

Another thought that is bugging me...

What do you guys think about TOOL releasing this LIVE DVD? Do you think they are trying to sell out? I sure hope not...

if there next album isn't as good as lateralus, I'm not buying...

Again, what do you think about this release?

[sundryan]

Originally posted by Slave#1
Another thought that is bugging me...

What do you guys think about TOOL releasing this LIVE DVD? Do you think they are trying to sell out? I sure hope not...


I think they can do whatever they like and not have to worry about the fans who believe they are selling out. I also think you should sit down and listen to Hooker With a Penis a few more times.

if there next album isn't as good as lateralus, I'm not buying...

I'm sure Tool is deeply concerned... :P

[Niaboc]

Slave#1...that was some really strange shit you just said...
I'm in south australia and have only had the opportunity to see Tool live once, so i'm looking forward to the live dvd VERY MUCH. I dont think it's selling out. I just see it as the same message coming through a different medium.

[Slave#1]

Niaboc,

that is a very good way to look at this release, and I'm glad you shared it. =)

I hope they include a live recording so you can just listen to it if you choose instead of having to watch the darned thing 0_o.

You see, I have a very pessimistic outlook on just about everything that happens in the music business these days.

Besides I know that "hooker with a penis" is all about tool and selling out. As a matter of fact, I believe that song is trying to tell us that they really ALREADY sold out. BUT, not to the degree that some bands have coughkorncough, coughlimpbizkitcough, coughcreedcough, coughrageagainstthemachinecough.

I have my own philosophy on TOOL's actions. I believe that TOOL is trying to better their visual look more so than anything else. From what I've experienced over the past 3 shows that I've seen them preform, they have very dramaticaly improved the visual experience while staying true to what they do best.

I was a little rash in my last post, but I do have my own opinion as everybody should.

Thanks,

Bryan

[Sauron]

I think you'r interpretation of the song is very good. But about all the correction on the lyrics you guys have posted, I think there is a reason why Tool doesnt post their lyrics on their albums. And thats for us to understand the message better. If you 'truly' understand what the song is about, it doesnt matter if you think it sais "gold inflated anger" or "cold and fated anchor", we all understand the idea of a grudge sinking a man down, and that happens because Maynard together with the band, have the ability to tell us things not only thru the lyrics but with the whole music.

About the DVD I really hope it comes out, cuz like Niaboc , Im not form USA/Europe, Im form South America, so Ive never seen tool live, and wont till i get enought money to go ans see them in USA.

[desert_fly]

i agree with the point about maynard not writing lyrics in the liner notes for a reason. listening to tool is for me and probably all of you, an intensely personal experience. whatever it means to you is what it really means. i hate art that is supposed to only have one true meaning because it never does. if its made to be experienced by an audience, it is made to be interpreted in infinate ways. maynard knows this, he's a smart man.
i read alex gray's book, the mission of art, when i first started getting really excited about him through tool. hes the guy who did the lateralus cover art and alot of the visual stuff for the last tour, just in case. he said that no one can own art. its higher than that. if i pay tool money for the new dvd, it doesnt mean they sold out, it is just an expression of my appreciation for their art, and an encouragement of what they do. so they let me have a piece of it to enjoy. they will have sold out when they are only concerned with the money i give them. and i don't see that happening soon.

[sloppyc]

Originally posted by Slave#1

What do you guys think about TOOL releasing this LIVE DVD? Do you think they are trying to sell out? I sure hope not...

if there next album isn't as good as lateralus, I'm not buying...


ok first - live dvd - i remember thinking when i was at the show last august that there is an awful lot going on - almost too much to take in at one show. live dvd could be amazing if done right... if not the viewer could be missing out on a lot of shit... not sure how it would all be adequately captured...

and about not buying the new one if it's not as good as lateralus: that doesn't deserve an answer.

[J1516]

I have two things to say.
1) I think you guys are looking way too deeply into Maynards lyrics. I personally think Maynard is the least essential person in the group. I enjoy his voice a whole lot more than his lyrics. Besides, most of the album is music instead of lyrics. The music portrays the beginning of the grudge as you guys have already said and just takes us on a journey through anger and negativity and tries to let go, I think the ending sounds too angry for it to say that he actually does let go. I think he has the desire to let go but doesn't, like an addict has the desire to stop taking drugs but can't. The song and entire album play on emotions for me more than message. I already knew that holding grudges is bad and that we should all let go. Are you people saying that this is a revelation for you? The messages behind all the songs seem extremely clear to me, but that's just due to any personal experiances I've applied to the songs. You can feel a connection with the swriling emotions that flow throughout the album. The messages seem clear to me but on looking closer to the lyrics and music I've found that it really is an incredibly subjective and personal album. My point is that the message is clear to the individual, but the music is what I think more fans should be focusing on.
2) I can't wait for the new DVD. I don't think a DVD can capture an experiance of seeing Tool live, but no DVD can capture any live experiance. Salival is a great album, but it doesn't really capture the show as well as an actual recorded show would, and I'd love to see that. I want to actually look at those visuals again, since just seeing them for 1 songs time isn't long enough. I don't agree with hooker w/a penis. I think that song is terrible anyway, and I always skip it when I listen to AEnima, so for me that arguement doesn't work. A band can sell out when money becomes more important than music. When a band decides that they'll make money instead of great music they have sold out. But the new DVD is going to be amazing. They're giving the fans something that they want to see since so many people were disappointed with Salival not being a live show but a compilation of live songs (though I'd say the songs on that album are teh best tool songs if not the best songs ever). I want a CD or DVD that'll be able to capture what I saw (twice).

[marc]

i feel this song has a more general view of grudges, rather than them applying to relationships between people.... i think that this song fits under one of Tools themes of the inevitable end of days, whether it be the entire planet or just your own life..... for me the song is a warning for us to let go of our grudges and enjoy our lives before it is too late... whether our end be brought by a heavenly body crashing into our planet (the ever famous "planet X" theory: Niburu.... or just a comet... "saturn comes back around" ... you get the picture), or just plain old natural death... we should grow up and be honest with those around us... we should not be childish and hold these grudges, in doing so we slow evolution and we can't grow... another point made is we are in complete control of these grudges... and almost proud of them in a way....so we tend not to give up in the power struggle for energy no matter how illogical or what the cost "Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down
Justify denials and grip them to the lonesome end"......
to me all of the lyrics point in that direction... growth, love, compassion and art can not work with grudges and dishonesty...
we must learn to be honest with our selves and others before it is too late...
forgive and be forgiven....

[wuphat]

While Tool may not submit their lyrics in the liner notes of their releases, they do appear both on this site and at the band's official website. Both sites have the line in question as "cold and fated anchor" not "gold inflated anger" or cold and faded anchor."

As for the lyrics not meaning much or not too be looked into: why bother writing lyrics at all if there was no meaning behind it? Maynard's lyrics are much more than words to songs. He uses the words, the connotation, and the delivery of them as another instrument. His words, his voice is as integral to the overall song as the guitar, drums and bass is. Furthermore, the lyrics are not only lyrics, but poetry, and nearly all poetry is symbolic in nature. While literal meanings can be taken, there is usually something behind the words. For each listener it will be different though many may derive the same interpretation.

Search for the meanings. Find out what they mean to you. Make something positive of them. That's really what Maynard is saying. Don't sit back and just take it all in...you can do that with Britney Spears. Tool is so much more than that, to say that the lyrics are not so important is really an insult to the band and to those who have found something in them.

[Kostia]

Man... if TOOL released a live DVD... I would so be ticked off. Wait, no I wouldn't, because they never tour where I live and if they did I'd buy it anyways.

Even if it is selling out... don't you LOVE hearing TOOL live???? It's the greatest. I downloaded both video Coachella files for some six days on my 28.8 modem just to get a poor glimpse and I loved it.

[J1516]

I didn't mean that I think the lyrics are useless, I just think people look too deeply into lyrics and not enough into music. And I'm glad he chooses to use his voice as an insturment instead of let that inturrupt the music like some other artists do. And I like Maynard's lyrics. They're good because they're so vague that everyone has to fill in the gaps with their own ideas. I enjoy the complete lack of personal clarity because it draws attention away from Maynard's life and into your life.

[IceBlueEye84X]

I like Bryan's interpretation of the song...I'd say his idea seems very thought out. The Grudge does have a very stressful, ready-to-explode, type of vibe...they way I sometimes interpret songs is different. I tend to almost block out the words, and just listen to the instrumental part of some songs. Sometimes, I think you can interpret more just by listening to the instruments play. You can hear and FEEL the stress of the song, like when you are very stressed out and you can't think straght, because you're mind is racing in a million different directions...there's so much going on in the song that it's almost too much to take, and your heart's going to cave in, and you'll "Crack"...I like your idea, Bryan...I thought the same thing when I listened to it...but, I just have one question...you put such a great inter[retation of the song, but then you say that "tool is a big joke?"...what's up?

[myNick]

Originally posted by Sauron
About the DVD I really hope it comes out, cuz like Niaboc , Im not form USA/Europe, Im form South America, so Ive never seen tool live, and wont till i get enought money to go ans see them in USA.

Here there is another one that never saw Tool live... Argentina is broken... Maybe I've never see Tool live... =(

I hope... Someday...

[Casious]

Take me to your leader

[Carlos T.]

i think the song the grudge is simply about people holding old grudges all their life and they just need to let them go thats the part let go!let go! let go! let gooo!!!and i ink that the 30 second scream is maynard letting go his grudge.thats my opinion.thanx;)

[Slave#1]

Originally posted by IceBlueEye84X
I just have one question...you put such a great inter[retation of the song, but then you say that "tool is a big joke?"...what's up?

I just looked back at what I had typed in...and thought to myself...."that is a LOT of thinking...isn't this supposed to be music?"

I meen, don't you ever listen to something else besides TOOL and just listen for the sake of listening? I meen, don't you listen for the musical aspect of it too? I love Maynards lyrics but, I don't buy a CD for the lyrics. I buy it for the music. And that's why I love TOOL so much. They put so much time an effort into writing their songs that sometimes, Maynard ends up standing on stage for two or three minutes during a song while Danny, Justin and Adam play.

Thats why I said that. Music > Lyrics

[Flood]

I haven't had the opportunity of seeing Tool live, and so has many other Tool fans around the world. I don't enjoy downloading their Live performances, because the quality is horrible and the screen is small. I'd love a live Tool DVD. It would allow us to have a better visual interpretation of the song than we had before.

[Torpid_Prey]

Originally posted by Slave#1

I meen, don't you ever listen to something else besides TOOL and just listen for the sake of listening? I meen, don't you listen for the musical aspect of it too? I love Maynards lyrics but, I don't buy a CD for the lyrics. I buy it for the music. And that's why I love TOOL so much. They put so much time an effort into writing their songs that sometimes, Maynard ends up standing on stage for two or three minutes during a song while Danny, Justin and Adam play.

Thats why I said that. Music > Lyrics


Hey man, i listen to other stuff besides tool. toor r my favorite band for endlesss reasons, but u cant honestly say that teh music is so much greater than his lyrics. I mean, maynard's lyics are the best lyics to any song i have ever heard - by anyone. im not saying that the music is bad because that too has the best sound, feel and meaning to it, but im just saying that the songs with lyrics, are written to have lyrics, and to have meaning. You can have a band without any lyrics, but that means that there is not as much variation in the song. Think of how hard it would be to creat lyrics for songs that have average lengths of 7 or 8 + mins. I think the lyrics are an equal part to the music, same as in any band, just as the instruments are all equal within themselves. Think of how it would sound without the bass, or the drums. its the same without the lyrics. the music is there to help build and build around maynards awesome voice, and to complete the song.

Im also not saying that instrumental songs r not good bcoz they are made without the vocals, so the meaning of the song is in the music, but thats different all together.

any questions email me [email protected]
(I have MSN messenger too)

[Torpid_Prey]

Ya know when u read a good book, how it has a complex plot and a decent storyline? well its the same with a good song. the storyline is what maynard is singing, and the plot is the music, which sets the scene, makes the background so the words more meaning. gives more understanding to the thoughts being portrayed within the song.

[J1516]

I must disagree with you there. I love many many bands without lyrics. Sigur Ros' () is absent of any lyrics and is one of my favorite albums this year, and most of Yume Bitsu's The Golden Vessyl Of Sound has no lyrics, and is another of my favorite albums this year. And listen to Godspeed You! Black Emperor- Sleep which is a 23 minute song. There aren't any lyrics (just an old man talking about conny island for about a minute at the beginning), it's extremely diverse and is one of the best songs ever. If you can find any good post-rock you'll find some great bands that have no lyrics. Plus there's all those electronica bands like Aphex Twin, Autechre, Boards Of Canada etc. that have no lyrics (or at least any of the speaking or words in those songs aren't written and aren't really lyrics).
I agree that music is much much > lyrics. Just look at NIN's insturmental songs. I think songs like A Warm Place, Leaving Hope, and The Persistence Of Loss are much better than any of the songs where he sings (even though none of their titles are near as bad). And for me, Triad is one of the best songs on this album. In this song we see how much better music is than lyrics. I really love how Maynard can take the emotions of the music and turn them into universal feelings with a more personal and human side that a human voice has. But his lyrics and voice are a tiny part of this song. The biggest problem with tool lyrics for me isn't maynard's fault, it's the fans'. Too many people create huge puzzles around the lyrics and try and find something for them to mean that makes the other aspects of the songs (the guitar, bass, drum) seem meaningless even though they play the largest roll in the album. For me anyway.

For anyone who hasn't seen tool live: It's the best show you could ever see. Don't download bootlegs. They focus on one member of the band for a long time even though whoever they focus on isn't doing anything. The full show is much more theatrical than what you'll see in a bootleg. The DVD is going to be a blessing from the lord for you people.

[YGOfvn]

About the "saturn ascends" line, I've had my own interpritation for a while.. here:

So yeah, Saturn isn't only a planet... think back before we gave a name to it.. what was saturn? The Roman god a war. This goes along greatly with what desert_fly said about "the red badge"... it could also just mean that the grudge is lifted to a much more personal and angry level... or it's just recaping before the "let go" line..

..\/,

[w.penfield]

Saturn is the gravedigger; the most loathesome of the planets in our solar system.

[Messiah]

Look i just want to say that what this person thinks the Grudge means should not be taken so seriously. i mean it is just their OPINION. another thing please he stupid coments like if its not as good as lateralis im not buying...keep it to yourself we dont care. also Slave #2 how dare you say that Rage sold out. you should be ashamed of yourself.
Take Tool how you want to. Let them wake you up and show you the way, but you walk it.
SPIRAL OUT

[Slave#1]

Face it, Rage was selling out.

And another thing, I was mad. I say things I don't meen when I'm mad. I'll buy everything that TOOL releases. EVEN IF IT DOES SUCK. But I'm sure that wont happen because if you look closely at the release cycle that TOOL has taken, you will come to find out that ÆNIMA was tool's real "breakthrough" album. ÆNIMA got the masses involved. Now that Lateralus is out and kicking, I can safely say that Adam jones has no intentions on changing his writing for anyone, the label or otherwise. TOOL will always be TOOL.

And that sir is my answer.

Bryan

[Smokin joe]

Originally posted by Slave#1
Face it, Rage was selling out.

I'd hate to think of what that is referring to. First of all, if it is the late and great Rage Against the Machine, I would have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. RATM is one of the greatest bands, and should be remembered as so. Also, I'm sure you're probably just talking about Audioslave...

Why are people so stubborn? This is their first CD, and yet people have to compare it to something, to Rage, to Soundgarden... Why can't people just take music the way it is. I have the first CD and think it just kicks ass, and I can't wait for the second to see what direction the band will be taking.

With all the crap that's out there, it's reassuring to know that some bands still make good music.

Sorry about the rant, but i gotta step up for RATM.

joe - anyway, any band can do whatever they want and sound whichever way they want. It's their choice, it's their soul they sold. Just listen to Hooker with a Penis

[el vato malo]

I know what lyrics may have been posted or be available, but does anyone think that he may be saying (singing) "golden plated anchor"? That might fall more in line with the "leaden grudge". as in - it feels good to hold that hostility inside, and to you it may appear to be a source of internal power, but that is only on the surface.

i have run across many different ideas on what TOOL's lyrics actually say, and sometimes what it's supposed to be and what it actually is are two completely differenct things.

???

[lootfreak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slave#1



What do you guys think about TOOL releasing this LIVE DVD? Do you think they are trying to sell out? I sure hope not...


I agree withSundryan. First of all, Tool wouldn't and couldn't sell out. You SHOULD listen to Hooker With A Penis a few more times.



if there next album isn't as good as lateralus, I'm not buying...

I'm sure that's no loss to them.

[OpiAtE_666]

I already posted my interpretation of "the grudge" in another thread, and it was very similar to slave 1's. So I just want to say this.

How could anyone interpret a band releasing a live performance video as "selling out". The term "selling out" has been perverted to the point that a band can't do anything without being called sell outs. As someone already stated, the point where a band sells out is the point where they decide money is more important than art. If tool started doing nike commercials they would be selling out. If tool's next album sounded more like Godsmack than Lateralus, they would be selling out. Releasing a DVD... I can't even comprehend how someone could see that as selling out.

I'll leave you with this:

"All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name."

"I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one."

[Torpid_Prey]

Im replien to J1516 - page 2 last time i checked, after my other post.

Ive already said, im not refering to bands without lyrics, im talking about what Slave#1 said: saying that the music is more important than the lyrics. im sayig that theyre equal, in the songs that have lyrics. If a song has lyrics, its gotta have the lyrics, or else it has no story to it. an instrumentsl song is different - its written without lyrics, so it has no lyrics, therefore doesnt need lyrics. Songs like Triad - a Classic song, its story is all in the music. Its still easy to tell what a band is saying through an instrumental snon because the feeling is there.

With a lyrical song, the music changes and has different tones and patterns when the lyrics are being sung, then it goes to another tone, when there is a rest in the lyrics. Lyrical and Instrumental songs are comletly different, not just because they dont have lyrics. The music often says more in instrumental songs because there are no lyrics to do it.

[Machine]

I like alot about what Im reading but I think that most of you guys have way to much time and kind bud at hand . I think that this song is simply about letting go of unneeded anger . I got into this band because MJK way talking about things that I was dealing with . Anger has always been a big issue in my life . Its also be something thats controled me far more then I controled it . But I can tell you from my life that it WILL pull you down if you let it .At the end of the song MJK finds out that its not worth letting it control him , that he cant go back and change the people or places that caused the pain and anger and that if he want to find solice that he has to LET GO . This song was a rude awakening for me in the sence that I had to pay attintion ( I know my spelling sucks ) .Iv had to let go and go on with my life , its not easy but Im better off w/o it

[Wu_jian]

But put this album in the context of the others. There aren't the same sentiments, are there? The other albums have a lot of hate in them, both of the self and others.

In some ways this song is a necessary explanation of why this album is so different. It seems to me to advise the abandonment of a life defines by what one is 'against' or by the hurts one has been dealt. It seems critical of the idea of people, or the past self that has to 'clutch it like a cornerstone'. the person's sense of self has been built up around grudges and without them they are subject to chaos; thus 'it all comes down'. This also allows some decisions to be made without discomforting thought that might expose ones own flaws; 'justify denial' by having an excuse for the flat refusal to consider some possibilities.

'Saturn ascends'? Well the Roman Saturn is equivalent to the Greek 'Cronos' the malevolent father that Zeus eventually kills or renders impotent. There are plenty of references to a dark father figure in earlier albums. 'To choose one or ten' is possibly an acceptance that there is only one correct choice; numerologically one and ten are the same (1+0=1). Aha! And one is the number of the divine! Perhaps here Maynard suggests that we reject conflict and instead embrace our own divinity?

This idea is further corrborated by the lines 'Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold' The transmutation of lead into gold was the aim of alchemy; however it was really a metaphor for the transmutation of base man (lead) with all his flaws and petty concerns, inot Adam Kadmon, Perfect Man, who is in touch with his divinity.

[Wu_jian]

Originally posted by YGOfvn
About the "saturn ascends" line, I've had my own interpritation for a while.. here:

So yeah, Saturn isn't only a planet... think back before we gave a name to it.. what was saturn? The Roman god a war. This goes along greatly with what desert_fly said about "the red badge"... it could also just mean that the grudge is lifted to a much more personal and angry level... or it's just recaping before the "let go" line..

..\/,

Sorry, dude, the roman god of war was MARS (greek Ares) Saturn was the Old man of the gods.

[matthew]

Hypocricy is a very bad thing. I agree Tool is a "BIG JOKE" in a way. Overanalyzing does nothing either. We are slowly taking away the meaning. Listening and feeling the music will get you far. That's all you have to do.

[Wu_jian]

But without our interpretative abilities language is meaningless! Now I do agree that 'overthinking, overanalysing separates the body from the mind'; that total reliance on reason is blind; but without some knowledge or glimmer of the complex metaphor used we cannot hope to assimilate the ideas within Tool's songs...

[Widow]

Originally posted by el vato malo
I know what lyrics may have been posted or be available, but does anyone think that he may be saying (singing) "golden plated anchor"? That might fall more in line with the "leaden grudge". as in - it feels good to hold that hostility inside, and to you it may appear to be a source of internal power, but that is only on the surface.

???


I heard the line as "Cold and leaden anchor' i.e. a cold and heavy wieght which drags your spirit down.
Then again, I suppose it could be another reference to the old alchemist's dream of turning lead into gold, hence the final line in the track. I think that the band choose not to include their lyrics in the liners to prompt us to think these sorts of thoughts.

Incidentally, the whole stone/anchor metaphore reminded me immediately of Pink Floyd's 'Dogs' "He was dragged down by the stone." A similar message on a similar theme, I think. For me, Tool and Pink Floyd are the only bands that have successfully explored the kind of philosophical and spiritual territory that they do. It's difficult to pick the superior band, but I don't think anyone else even comes close. Who have I annoyed by saying this? :)

[Torpid_Prey]

Originally posted by matthew
Hypocricy is a very bad thing. I agree Tool is a "BIG JOKE" in a way. Overanalyzing does nothing either. We are slowly taking away the meaning. Listening and feeling the music will get you far. That's all you have to do.

hey dude, i have thought of writing posts that say something about how everyone on here over thinks and over analyses, but if u look just down below the window while posting it says be original, be intelligent, dont post saying me too etc etc and 'and hey, we all know "this is just your opinion"', so this is the reason y i dont criticise others' opinions. i now read them, and allow myself to consider everyones view of each song, and in some cases i dont agree, but i usually keep it to myself.

overthinking and overanalysing does seperate the body from the mind in a sense, just because it often makes us see things that we want to see, and not what is actually there, but in this case, which is where "heavy, overanalytical thinking" is required i dont think that it can really do any harm. it can only help others' see your side and possiblie help others' to see more than just one side of each song.


']['ørpîd ]?rêÿ

[AEnima_462H]

Originally posted by Slave#1
I'm sorry that you don't like my summary.

I've never seen where the screams was indeed "let go" instead of "AHHH."

I believe I can post anything I wish in my own posts.

My blip about how TOOL shouldn't be analized so much is just my opinion.

Stop posting if your just gonna criticize what I typed up.

I doesn't help anything.
I really like your explination of "The Grudge". I can relate to yours the most compared to some of the differs on this song. And its true, every TOOL song should be looked at with an open and clear mind. Very nice Slave#1. Hats off!

[Psilo]

The music is of course better than the lyrics!
Although Maynard is my favorite vocalist and I can't get enough of listening to him, I listen to Tool because of what countless others in this thread said - The Musical aspect of Tool. The guitar and drums and bass all forming together to create music that I know, that IM familiar with and love.

I think unless you're listening to hip-hop, the musical and melodic parts of the piece should be more up front and meaningful than the vocals (and even sometimes in rap and others like punk rock!).

Nice summary of the songs meaning, too, Slave.



Psilo

[Codewarren]

Originally posted by desert_fly
cold and faded anchor " / gold inflated anger. this

Actually, I like this sort of thing, words that can be tweaked to sound as something else and make sense...Tool has some of that in their music which adds to the incredible depth...after all, everything's subjective.

Oh, and by the way, greetings everyone thisis my first post :)...should have started coming here long ago...

To cover bases, as for the live DVD, I think its what they should have done in the first place instead of releasing the piece of dung Salival...dont get me wrong, the CD was superb...but the DVD: RIP OFF!

I will be completely amazed at a live DVD concert of Tool...having only seen them once I yearn to see them again.

Damn, another thing...as for over-analysis...things that are interpreted differently by the individual are meant to be that way. Art is called this for a reason...what I like about Tool is that they manage to mix science and art in many ways, but looking at the obvioius Qabala and Jungian references, Maynard is much more in a philosophical realm.

Over-analysis is by all means OK, and in science and such, of course, NEEDED :). But this is art - I think "searching for meaning" is a much better term than "over-analysis".

overthinking and overanalysing does seperate the body from the mind in a sense, just because it often makes us see things that we want to see, and not what is actually there, but in this case, which is where "heavy, overanalytical thinking" is required i dont think that it can really do any harm. it can only help others' see your side and possiblie help others' to see more than just one side of each song.

The problem with the first part of this (I'm not calling you out or anything, just saying) is that metaphor, in all its form and beauty, is in essence, a faulty map to something else. You are MUCH more likely to see things that you want to see in metaphor and art, because both are only a few steps removed from, dun DUN, myth.

Hope that was coherent :).

[Nicholas_Pasha]

Originally posted by paraflux
On the Salival box cover there is the tree ...superimposed over the body ... You could choose ->one<- and be the base of man, or you could choose ->ten<- and be all that man can possibly be.

Paraflux, thanks for extending your thoughts and openness of the continual thread. And sorry to all for the late reply/thought to offer regarding the Ten Seafirst (a.k.a. physical diagram tied to the Tree of Life (T.O.L.). Now, as I've studied, as opposed to being taught, the first sefirah (singular) is Keter (Hebrew for crown) and the tenth is Malkut (Kingdom, or Sovereignty). But, as important as the numbering is; orienting the superimposed diagram on the artists rendition of man, one mustn't be so quick to slip the nicely designed nest for our gift into it's sleeve. Slip the box into the 'protective sheath' feet first, if you will, orienting the outline properly. Ironically, today I did this for the first time and recognized Daat (Knowledge - the sefirah, which is not always outlined, but taught to remain below Keter). Now, I've just had many trains of thought run through station I don't want to derail anyone else's ideas, so either hop aboard or get off; possibly saving yourself from tireless study because many threads may spawn right about now and ask for all to e-mail me personally with all thoughts and opinions. Daat/Knowledge is shown, per the underlying illustration as a gold(en) energy that appears to be radiating. Much like the radiating glow from the case in Pulp Fiction, which may or may not encase (of course, pun intended) hold the soul of Mr. Wallace. That idea, just as mine, is obviously up to elaborate speculation.

But, what is unfolding in my mind now is how and why Daat is taught within the Tree, yet removed from most diagrams. True (or false), Adam/Eve were instructed by God (!Keter?) to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge, for they would ultimately die. Now, whether or not they never looked at one another the same again because of their nakedness, or other reasons is up to the same amount of speculation that shall follow here, although, surely it must have to do with coming to realize other Truths that were not intended for them (us?) and now we're left with the Cosmic fruits left behind with these Ein Sof (Endless), mystical teaching.

Maybe they came to realize a likeness of realities, similar to what has been offered of the late Berenger Sauniere, the priest of Rennes-le-Chateau by Blair, "Satan's (Force of Fragmentation) Little Helper." It's likely we shouldn't follow in the same foot steps of Biblical legends, the Priest, or our beloved band. Still, one idea remains to be a certainty: the alchemical process and souls are involved as a (clear cut?) subject. If I'm off my rocker, then would someone please lead me back to my seat before I wander to far along the beaten (Golden?) path.

Lastly, the 32nd path on the diagram of discussion, which ironically is the last recognized degree of the Masonic order, is that of Saturn. If I were in Vegas, I'd bet (the corkscrew doesn't turn up and) there's no connection.

And with THAT being my first post ~ ciao for now,
Nicholas

"Look me up, but don't hook me up. Not wanting to get caught, nor am I looking for my spirit to be bought. Flopping around like the bound to be dead fish caught. A greater part of the same, but with a soul, so I'm changing the game."
-NPM here, now-