Analyzing Justin

[OftenLost]

Well, Justin is my favorite bassist, and I just cant figure out how he does it. He can create a melody and hold down the feel of a song, while never really connecting with Danny or Adam. This is just a thread for analyzing some of Justin's lines and figuring out how he makes them work. One I want to attempt to dissect is the intro and main bassline to The Patient, it does follow Adam, yet creates another melody and the feeling for the song. Well, anyways, I hope this thread takes out, should be a good music theory test figuring out what he is doing and how it relates to the guitar. Discuss, if you would like.

[Matteran]

as far as I can tell, I believe he is wahing a note that is in harmony with the changing notes of adam. If that high thing is the bass, which I am assuming. As for when Maynard starts singing, the bassline seems to be an alteration of the first heavy part (3-0-5-7 thingy). He just seems to play around with it, and change to harmonize correctly with adam.

I'm not sure though, I just bought my first bass, and once i get strings on it tomorrow, I'll play it, and check it out (don't worry, I'm some what of a guitar player, so this isn't my first string instrument or something).

This could be a really interesting thread. I know a little music theory, I've been in the school band all my life, basically, but if we could get some real majors or something in here, that would be pretty cool.

I've always liked the bass on Lateralus (the song), but i have no real particular part to analyze, maybe during, "black and white are, all i see, in my infancy," (with just drums and bass)

And also, what the fuck time signature is danny in with the high hat when everything cuts out except the bass, and the guitar comes in, then him with the high hat, and then he comes in with a different time signature on the bass drum. Shit dude, two fucking time signatures at once. That part is the most impressive drumming i've ever heard.

[conical johnson]

...never really connecting with Danny or Adam.

I disagree. Copying and connecting are very different. What makes Justin (and any good music) so great is his ability to tune in to what's going on around him.

I'm not sure I understand your thread. You want a theory-based explanation of his playing? Or you just want to discuss the indescribable it-factor that makes good things good? I may be able to help with the former.

maybe during, "black and white are, all i see, in my infancy," (with just drums and bass)

If you think that's cool, put on some headphones and play close attention the drums in that part. Really close attention. I'll explain if necessary.

Shit dude, two fucking time signatures at once.

That's what we like to call a polyrythm, or polymetric. Listen to Ænema - it's got much more complex polyrythms (hint: more than two at once).

[Johnny Truant]

If you think that's cool, put on some headphones and play close attention the drums in that part. Really close attention. I'll explain if necessary.



Could you explain for me?

[OftenLost]

I'm not sure I understand your thread. You want a theory-based explanation of his playing? Or you just want to discuss the indescribable it-factor that makes good things good? I may be able to help with the former.



Mostly I want to learn what is Justin doing theory wise and how it relates to the rest of the band mates.

[holy reality]

That's what we like to call a polyrythm, or polymetric. Listen to Ænema - it's got much more complex polyrythms (hint: more than two at once).

not to drive this thread off topic but what parts? can you give me specific times....

Danny is just such a crazy drummer that I can't possibly dissect what I"m hearing into rational thoughts, or even repeat a passage of his I just heard in my head... I can like only hit one piece of it at a time...

He's amazing. I used to be like that with guitar though, before I learned how to play guitar... maybe if I learned some drum basics I'd understand just what it is Danny is doing and I'd be able to wrap my head around it better.... maybe not.

As for Justin... I really don't know how to put it into words but it seems like at times he'll listen to what Adam and Danny are doing, and he'll just try to make something that sticks out and counters it a bit, while still loosely fitting.... ? I don't know.

[deviatedwolf625]

Justin seems to like octaves a great deal (Schism, 46 and 2, the grudge among others), and perfect 5ths.

He also doesn't seem to do a lot of harmony from what I've heard, mostly does counterpoint to adam

He's not incredible as a bassist, but I like his playing style certainly.

[conical johnson]

not to drive this thread off topic but what parts? can you give me specific times....

Danny is just such a crazy drummer that I can't possibly dissect what I"m hearing into rational thoughts, or even repeat a passage of his I just heard in my head... I can like only hit one piece of it at a time...

He's amazing. I used to be like that with guitar though, before I learned how to play guitar... maybe if I learned some drum basics I'd understand just what it is Danny is doing and I'd be able to wrap my head around it better.... maybe not.

As for Justin... I really don't know how to put it into words but it seems like at times he'll listen to what Adam and Danny are doing, and he'll just try to make something that sticks out and counters it a bit, while still loosely fitting.... ? I don't know.

There's probably some explanation in the Ænema section, but, let's see. The verse has a 3 against 4 thing going on, then he starts doing swashes on the hats in.... 7, maybe? Too complex for me to understand. Then, at the end, there's all kinds of polymetrics and syncopation going on with the "hey"s and guitar against the drums and bass.

Could you explain for me?

It's not that easy to hear, but Danny's got his drums tuned to the notes of that bass riff. He's playing the riff on drums. But it's only the


g 5
d 3
a 5 0
d



part. He doesn't do the full riff (that is, he repeats that even when Justin is playing



g 7
d 5
a 5 0
d



As for the intro to The Patient, here's what Adam's playing:



e------------------------
b------------------------
g------------------------
d----0-2---0-2----2---2-- x20
a---------------3---0----
d--3-----0---------------



And her's what Justin's playing:


g--h9h10p9-h7-h12-h9-h9h10p9-h7-h17-h14--
d----------------------------------------
a---------------------------------------- x8
d----------------------------------------



To put that on one instrument (I'm a bass player, so this is what you get):



g------10----------------------------------------
d-14---12---14---12---12---14---17---14---14---14
a-------------------------------15--------12-----
d-15-------------12------------------------------



The first interval is an Fmaj7. Then a Dmin3. Then they both play an E. Two Ds, an octave apart. D, E, C5 (C+G), E, A5 (A+E), E.

The verse part is pretty much Adam's intro, except that the first time around, he trucks on a G (D-string, 5th fret), instead of playing the 3-2-0-2 part on the A and d strings. The song is in 5, for the most part. I would say it's probably in Dmin (Aeolian), just from analyzing these parts, but it may not be. A lot of drop-D guitarists tend to write in Dmin, though, so that's my guess.

Also, it's not a wah he's using. Look in the Patient section for my lengthy explanation of how he gets that sound.

Hope that helped! (BTW, if there are any eggregious errors in this post, please correct me. This is the third time I've typed this, because of my computer crapping out, so it may have been a little rushed).

[Adore]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mean Tart
Shit dude, two fucking time signatures at once.
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"That's what we like to call a polyrythm, or polymetric. Listen to Ænema - it's got much more complex polyrythms" "(hint: more than two at once)".[QUOTE, conical johnson]
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Id just like to get one thing straight, polyrythm's and time signature's are 2 completely different thing's, polyrythm's are a few different pattern's playing simultaneously, time signature's are the frame, which these pattern's are played in. To play two different time signature's at once, for example 6/8 on ride, snare, and tom's, and 3/4 on hi hat's and bass drum, is slightly different then just playing polyrythm's.
How ever the difference between Polyrythm's and time signature's are very subtle, it all depend's which way you look at it, and how much you anaylize and break the drumming, bass playing down.

[conical johnson]

I think I must have forgotten it the last time I typed that last post, but at one point I mentioned that a drummer should probably pop in to clarify. I don't call myself a drummer, and my knowledge of polyrythms is relatively rudimentary. I do think, however, that music theory can at times be more perception than reality, which complicates the explanation of theory. Things can be very different in theory and in practice.

Adore, could you give us an example of a polyrythm in a Tool song, that isn't in multiple time signatures? I'm always interested in getting a better understanding of this kind of thing.

[Adore]

Well you just have to remember the basic principle here, Poly (in this context) = many, Rhythmn = pattern. So for example the main beat in "sober" is a polyrythm. Any beat is technically a polyrhythm.
The whole multiple time signature thing, is achieved with multiple instrument's (band scenario) so just say you have a guitarist playing something in 6/8 and the bassist and drummer play's something in 6/4, this is a polyrhythm with multiple time signature's, it will flow because these two time signature's fit.


With how there was talk about danny playing in two different time signature's simultaneously, it all depend's which way you look at it, hear it, view it, and what aspect of the drumming your focusing on.
For example the begining of eulogy hay multiple time signature's danny has the bass and snare hit's going in 4/4 while he play's the electronic's in 8/8. this is a very subjective topic, it's all about how you see it, i hope this helped.

[March The Scaffold]

Matteran: Danny is in 5/8 during the breakdown in Lateralis




Polyrhthyms are very seperate from time signatures. However, a drummer can play in 2 different signatures. I have a solo where I play my feet in 5/8 and solo over it with my hands in 4/4. That is both multiple time signatures and a polyrhthym. Like adore brought out, even just a simple boom-chick Ringo Starr beat is a polyrhthym technically. Ostinato based drumming is where you'll hear polyrhythms to the extreme. Carey does ostinato based in Triad, Eulogy, The Grudge, and even Reflection. Other ostinato drummers are Terry Bozzio, Grant Collins, and Marco Minnemann.