Danny a slight bit offtempo

[bzx]

hi all

(not sure if this was brought here or not, couldn't find it anywhere in the forums.)

recently i got my first hi-fi stereo system (rotel ra-971 + b&w 601s2 for those interested, btw said to be a perfect combo for rock music) and basically i'm enjoying music (including Tool's) from the beginning if you know what i mean ;) it's great fun to experience it at such great quality level which i never had before. thanks to the quality of the system i'm now hearing small details in various songs that i've never heard before... for example i know each song from Aenima by heart as i was listening to it since its release, but this came to me just now... but obviously such details are hard to catch especially on tape which was my first copy of Aenima ;)

without further ado, here's the thing:
use your best headphones, or a good stereo system, if it's some computer speakers make sure to set treble to high.

(times are approximate but as close as possible)

- play stinkfist starting from 2:45
- there's going to be 4 bars with maynard whispering those portugese swearings
- next 4 bars start at 2:56 (the guitar comes in), and there's going to be hihat coming in, played by foot only. the hihat will be in the background but noticeable, and that's the thing i want you to concentrate on.
- there will be 8 hihat hits during those 4 bars, notice that every second hit is slightly too early! especially the 1st, 2nd and 3rd hit.
- next 4 bars will start at 3:02 (the guitar fades out), and notice that the hihat has the good timing.
- now, again, next 4 bars that start at 3:07 (again guitar in) - notice the every second hit of the hihat a bit offtempo! a very small bit of a second too early!
- again, next 4 bars without the guitar are ok
- and again, 4 bars starting from around 3:19 - again, hihat is offtempo on every second hit.
- lastly, when the song tempo changes at 3:23 there is a bit of a mess there with the hihat ;) very hard to notice and i haven't figured it fully out yet.

now, personally i think that Tool music is the best when it comes to drums. Danny is my favourite drummer of all, and i can't even imagine how he manages to play all those crazy tempos that we may find in many many songs.

so i didn't write this to make fun or anything like that, obviously.
it's just an interesting find i think..

i am not a drummer, so i can't say technically, but i assume that moment must be hard to play with the foot hihat. i would like to hear more thoughts from people on that.

thanks!
bzx

[Alex in Chains]

Seems to me that something that happens with regularity on the order of every other hit might, just might, be intentional.

[bzx]

Seems to me that something that happens with regularity on the order of every other hit might, just might, be intentional.

if you listen close, it turns out that it's not so regular, the offtempo appears to be more noticeable on 1st, 2nd and 3rd hit only, the last one is almost clear...

i think it has something to do with the complexity of the beat maybe? Danny hits many other drums and maybe it's some kind of a thing that's very hard to control? but on the other hand that would be strange for such experienced drummer..

maybe some experienced drummers can chip in with opinions.

[TOD]

I can't imagine Tool releasing an album with a mistake on it, and would assume that what you are hearing is most likely an intentional polyrhythm or syncopation that you are not used to hearing. I have a pretty good ear when things sound "off" and have never heard anything of the sort with Tool. I haven't gone back to "analyze" this part of the song because I don't have Aenima handy, but maybe You should. Look up polyrhythms and syncopation on wiki and then give it another listen because when I listen to the song I groove with every hit and beat like it was forged in heaven for my listening pleasure.

[bzx]

I can't imagine Tool releasing an album with a mistake on it, and would assume that what you are hearing is most likely an intentional polyrhythm or syncopation that you are not used to hearing...

You're right but..
I also have a good ear!

Thing is, what I described here is not something sounding "off" because it's off by a very small bit. Really hard to notice when you listen to the album just like that. And believe me, I've listened to this album millions of times ;)

Again, I'm not about to point out some mistakes or whatever.
Just an interesting find, which I want to talk about in a friendly manner.

So, please have a listen to Stinkfist at the moment I described before coming back to this discussion - it will be easier for all ;)

Thanks for your input!
b.

[TOD]

If you say so.

[bzx]

listen, mr know-it-all, if you think you're the only one who knows and understands syncopation and polyrhythms, you're wrong. if you can't discuss, don't do it.

come back when you hear the fragment i described.

[crincled]

haha

i think youre reading too much into the hi-hat "off tempo" deal. it's just danny hitting it with his left foot, but sometimes it may sound a bit off - just a bit - because after all, he's only human.

Also, I've just thought that it could very possibly not even be danny with his foot. maybe it's one of those percussion thingies, you know? if, for example, maynard is in charge, there's more possibility of it being off tempo ;)

[bzx]

hey, you're all getting me wrong.. i know DC is only a human, and i'm not trying to disrespect him here..

it's just a find in a piece of music..

[Michał]

Also had noticed it, which convinces me he hasn't got a computer implant to control all his limbs into that multiple rhythmic layers.
He goes a bit off, but I think that this particular recording take was so awesome he decided to use it anyway. So great emotion and accents during "chupa mina pica.." part :)
And I know what syncopation and polyrhythms are, I use them.
Pozdro for bzx :)