4 degrees

[aeon blue]

its like the other side of 46+2. wheras in that song you were instigating a change in yourself, in this you are pushing a change in another.

its when you know somebody's potential, and you know that the deserve and need the change, but they just dont know it yet. it might have to be violent -

"If you knock me down I'll come back running, knock you down, it won't be long now"

- but if thats the case then so be it. the end justifies the means, because youre doing it through care for them, and not your own interests.

"You won't do what you'd like to do.
Lay back and let me show you another way.
I'll kill what you want me to,
take what's left and eat it."

Throughout the song, always referring to himself as a willing servant, as long as things are moving forward. He's putting himself in a helpful position, guiding the person through the change. Helping them acheive it.

the anal sex metaphor (the anus being 4 degrees warmer than the pussy), i interpret as being a metaphor for honesty. being honest to yourself (coming out), and releasing all that inner energy, allowing that enriching, inner, unknown flame to shine and fill your being.

[ClockworkPmpkin]

I agree with most everything in your interputation , except that I feel the song is even more focused on being honest to yourself. I know that you mentioned that in the latter part regarding the sodomy metaphor, But in my opinion, the song is more about embracing what is natural and comfortable for one's self , and not just molding into what your social structure deems as a person. "Lay back , and let me show you another way" seems to say that there are other ways of living and loving than what is shown to you.

[fibonacci]

i think its about digging down inside yourself...finding out what you really are...taking on all new oppurtunities...not being afraid....

[rewnfloot]

I think the song is also about knowing all apects of each other. Having the freedom to try new things and not just do what you are used to, or doing what you wouldn't do with someone you weren't as comfortable with- whether it be sexual or just being able to speak your mind without censoring yourself. ("You won't do what you'd like to do."- Future and present tense)

[cradled]

You can't change other people.

Change comes from within.

[Burning Eden]

It's true that you can't change someone else...but you CAN "show them another way" You can introduce them to something they haven't experienced before, something they haven't thought of yet. Then, if the person is willing, they will embrace the new concept... Maynard tries to present us with many ideas in his lyrics, but only we decide if we want to accept them.

[substatique]

We have to examine our motivation for wanting to change another person. We tell them ourself that we want to free them from their closed mind, but maybe we really just want some anal action. Can we really make the judgement that we know what is best for a person, even when it seems so obvious?

[ragna16]

It's obvious. The speaker is always trying to change the other person, and bring him closer, show him another way, and altogether try to chang his mold. How can this be good for him though. How do you know changing someone else will be good for them. Maybe they're comfortable right where they are.

If you want to change another person, no matter how good your intentions, you're really not going to do anything but fuck them up the ass!!!

[Burning Eden]

Originally posted by ragna16
If you want to change another person, no matter how good your intentions, you're really not going to do anything but fuck them up the ass!!!

lol Well that is true, but you can't really CHANGE anyone...you can only offer the possibility...If they change or not, it is their choice... As long as you are not forceful and your intentions are pure then there's nothing wrong with showing someone a different solution. Like I said, I feel that is what Maynard does with his lyrics...He doesn't say "DO AS I SAY" he says "Let me SHOW you another way..."

[Kitteh]

Originally posted by fibonacci
i think its about digging down inside yourself...finding out what you really are...taking on all new oppurtunities...not being afraid....
I agree with you the most. It's also about opening up to yourself.

[timesig.net]

4 degrees is a military term for initiation. The lyrics seem to indicate a change and a desire to bring someone else with you. Maynard sounds like he has lost the will to resist and is just giving in. But he realizes in giving in he can experience and decide better. Also the song mentions returning to what you are used to, i think this represents the fear of stepping forward.
4 degrees is very inspiring to me, I enjoy the face value of the song and the message underneath. Basically I try to apply this to myself as often as I really can, but its hard you know. You are not always as brave as you wish to be

[TrueBart]

Well, I won't post my thoughts because they are the same as several people - Taking all opportunies, digging into yourself , etc.

I must say though this song is very inspiring, when you think about it (Like any Tool song) it really gets to you - Well, atleast it has to me.

[the count]

'free yourself from yourself.'

i think the meaning of the song is in essence freeing oneself of their fears, opening to what they fear. for instance, the anal sex metaphor. for most heterosexuals, anal sex is taboo, evil, wrong, nasty, whatever. what hes trying to say is that once you open yourself to new ideas and investigate them, you can find that what you once thought to be so bad is not actually that bad (not personally saying that i would do i tho lol!) . its all a journey of self education, life as a learning experience.

[Hyatir]

Originally posted by the count
(not personally saying that i would do i tho lol!)

How can you know till you've tried?

[sidez]

that was exactly what he was saying. You DON'T know until you try.

[Typx]

You could look at anal sex as a metaphor for first change.


It could be that for someone who has yet to open themselves up, and has not allowed themselves to flourish, doing so for the first time could be a very disturbing and disrupting experience. Which may be very similar to having anal sex for the first time. And that as disturbing as it is, this opening up and allowing change gets easier and easier, and better every time. As may be the same for anal sex.

"It brings us closer than dying and cancer and crying."

Could be that changing brings us closer to what life is really all about than any of the three mentioned in that line. All three of those experiences are very emotionally intense as well, tearing away all cosmetics and exposing true humanity.

[Kostia]

I believe that it is an absolute truth that any of the human intelligences can grow when exposed to new feelings and surroundings. Even in a post-modern society we have at least that truth to cling to, because it doesn't necessarily relate to morality.

If you keep yourself caged up in one method then you don't grow. Once you've learned all there is to learn, nothing else will be gained, and if anything you will degrade.

Go from vaginal to anal to oral, white to black to yellow, whatever metaphor you need, no matter how graphic. By opening up to something new you are going to grow. This is ESPECIALLY true in a free republic like America, because we're given that opportunity and have learned to excel at it more and more as time goes on.

Now, no one said the growth will be morally "good" or "bad" for you. That's up to you. Remember in the Prison Sex video, only the doll could paint itself, and not his keeper? You have the choice to give in to negative experiences or to learn from them.

[Typx]

<quote>
Even in a post-modern society we have at least that truth to cling to -<i>Kostia</i>
</quote>

What truth are you referring to? Because as free as the society we live in is, it is smothered by a thick blanket of lies.

[Hyatir]

if the lies are as pervasive as you say, then we must find our own truths within ourselves and the people we keep close.
I think thats what this sogns about, how we can escape the storm of lies and hate in our society by taking the ones we love and helping them to see the folly of their ways. (heh, doesnt sound too arrogant does it?)

[Typx]

I was thinking that is probably what he meant by seeking truth. I think trying to show others the "folly of their ways" is good, but thats where it has to stop, people have to change on their own, only then will it last.

[neo_taboolie]

I can't add many more thoughts that haven't already be mentioned here, but seeing as I really enjoy the song 4 degrees I will add a few of my own ideas to either reliterate or enhance what others have already said.

aeon blue certainly opened well, with the idea that Undertow sticks with the theme of instigating change in another. Although I believe the songs vary with what kind of substance or value is used to instigate this change, or in other words different songs explore different ways of changing through different means.

The idea of changing through harsh relationships in Prison Sex and maybe even 4 Degrees, "If you knock me down I'll come back running, knock you down, it won't be long now"
(aeon blue).
The idea of changing through chemicals or substance abuse such as in Sober and Undertow. "...you're saturating me.
So how could I let this bring me back to my knees again again again"

When it comes to 4 Degrees and the idea of opening up through honesty, loyalty or even the need to explore and try new things it really is a strong message when the metaphor of opening up to sodomy, submissive anal sex is used.
"Locked up inside you, like the calm beneath castles, is a cavern of treasures that noone has been to. Let's go digging. Bring it out to take you back in."

So this person who is taking advantage of the other being, in 4 Degrees, appears to be introducing him/her (genda is irrelevant) to new concepts. The idea that it is possible to alter a persons perception on good and bad, or morally change a person by opening them up to new ideas.
"You won't do what you'd like to do. Lay back and let me show you another way."

The next arguement could be about Flood or Disgustipated and what role they play in the overall message or journey that Undertow has to offer. Even though Tool's earlier stuff may not carry a clear message or definition with it I always consider Undertow a borderline CD where Tool were opening themselves up to new ideas and maybe wanted to portray that though their music.

I take Flood as some sort of final statement for the changes that have been considered and found throughout the other songs. That this person has developed their opinions to such a degree that they feel they must elevate themselves above others in order to remain special, or priveleged.
"All I knew and all I believed are crumbling images that no longer comfort me. I scramble to reach higher ground, some order and sanity, or something to comfort me."

Anyway, back to 4 Degrees... I've said just about all that can be said and although most of it is just echoed from others I find the song so enjoyable that I just had to mention something. And from one fellow Lurker to another, I found this thread really enjoyable to read and it generated some great ideas.

Although I did title this the "final analysis" I put those "..." there for a reason... There can be no final analysis. In my mind I feel I have concluded on this song to a certain degree of satisfaction, but it will always remain open to anyone's interpretation of the music and what it means to them.
Personally I consider every Tool song some sort of piece to the puzzle and that they form together on every CD in some sort of emotional or thoughtful journey that is supposed to be pieced together however you want it to be. I have no doubt that this message is my opinion and therefore may be only my opinion, but others may have similar ones and within this thread I found the opinions mentioned most interesting.

...Believe in nothing...

[Messiah]

People please why cant you just take it as the song is about anal sex.
why does everything have to have some damn deep meaning. maybe Maynard wrote it as a joke to get all of you "thinkers" to spend all of your time thinking what it is when the answers is right there......
SPIRAL OUT
KEEP GOING

[Hyatir]

yeah, ive always thought that the 3 latter cd's (undertow aenima, and lateralus) have been describing a spiritual journey the speaker undergoes. however, if every song is about anal sex and drugs and thats it, then we can interpret as much as we damn well please so we can "spiral out" and "keep going". if you dont like it, dont read.

[mike tyson]

I agree with most everyones interpretations of this song, so I won't write much. But just to further inforce, I feel this song is about self-discovery, opening up without reservation, and digging deep into yourself and ' freeing yourself from yourself ' . This is personally my favourite Tool song of all, I love what Maynard is trying to tell us in this song, much as I love what he tells us in all other songs, but this one especially gets to me.

[preacher]

Originally posted by timesig.net
4 degrees is a military term for initiation. The lyrics seem to indicate a change and a desire to bring someone else with you. Maynard sounds like he has lost the will to resist and is just giving in. But he realizes in giving in he can experience and decide better. Also the song mentions returning to what you are used to, i think this represents the fear of stepping forward.
4 degrees is very inspiring to me, I enjoy the face value of the song and the message underneath. Basically I try to apply this to myself as often as I really can, but its hard you know. You are not always as brave as you wish to be

Right on man, I agree on it being very hard at times. I find myself constantly wanted and needing to break free from the societal mess, but society makes us feel safe and secure does it not? And this song has a very strong relation to some things I've been going through over the last year. I recently fell in love with a Christian Girl (Yuck!). I tried to help her open her mind, but ultimately I failed. This does not just spell out the meaning of the song however, because I also feel that it is a reflection of my own unconscious fear of being honest and open with myself and my beliefs in sprituality. She was a very sweet person, but ultimately ended up being extremely sheltered and disgustingly naive. Oh well, to each his own.

-Keep It Real

[Polyoptic]

There has always been something intimate to me about Maynard's lyrics. There is way too much at stake in them to be simply about anal sex (Messiah from above...the point of a forum is to discuss...otherwise we'd just invite someone such as yourself to write up critiques of the songs based on the words at their face value and not even bother to listen to the music and meaning).

Much of MJK's lyrics appear to be a personal forum for self-examination and observation. Lateralus (as an example) is FULL of it...which I find very valuable and noteworthy.

4 Degrees has spoken to me more than any of the other songs I've heard thus far (though I leave much room for the others to speak to me as clearly and profoundly). And it did so at a very needed moment. To me, it is about reaching deep down inside and pulling out the things that really mean something to you. That creative energy that drives ambitions of evolution towards personal truth. The anal sex part, to me, is about the suffering one must endure to achieve this. That energy and will that you reach deep inside for is going to hurt severely as it snags on fears and and other obstacles...much like the pain of a person's first time toying with anal sex (or so I hear). Another similarity is how it gets easier with each successive attempt.

I do agree with much of what's said above about Keenan caring for the person he's speaking of (whether it be himself, a man, or a woman). That was also an instrumental point in my epiphanic moment with the song...the persistance and tenacity he suggests in helping the subject get to the point of liberation from the self (by pushing and coaxing). We all need external forces to help us evolve now and then, and it often comes in a form that we find hard to take...another allusion to anal sex...but the result will be worthwhile in the end:

Give in now
and let me in.
You'll like this in
Don't pull it out.